Author Topic: September 11 icon  (Read 1498 times)

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Offline AZCatholic

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September 11 icon
« on: September 05, 2011, 12:19:54 PM »
What do you think about this icon?
http://www.theologyincolor.com/ray/9-11.html

Offline mike

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 12:55:35 PM »
Idea not bad  in contrary to the technique.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 01:07:19 PM »
I don't like it.
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Offline TheodoraElizabeth3

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 01:17:26 PM »
Saw it for sale on the ACROD online bookstore. Don't like it either.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 01:28:47 PM »
That's not an icon.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 01:42:31 PM »

I don't like it,either.

How does the 911 disaster warrant being depicted on an icon?

There were far worse disasters in Orthodox lands, and even those aren't depicted.

Icons are a window to Heaven, not Hell.


On another note, I've never seen a lone figure in an icon looking anywhere but, out at the viewer.  In this image, what is Christ supposed to be looking at?

...besides Christ should never represent a "defeated" image as this painting shows.

Christ was, is and always will be victorious!
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline mike

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 01:45:23 PM »
How is it different from that one?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 01:48:31 PM »
How is it different from that one?


Is that for Chernobyl?
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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 01:49:35 PM »
Yes.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 02:00:54 PM »

Don't think that just because I am Ukrainian I would support everything Ukrainian.

I do not like this "Chernobyl" icon, either.

Doctors in masks, indeed!

It's horrible!

You can use an image like this with an article on Chernobyl, it's a graphic depiction....but, this is not an icon to be venerated by any stretch of the imagination.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 02:03:31 PM »

I don't like it,either.

How does the 911 disaster warrant being depicted on an icon?

There were far worse disasters in Orthodox lands, and even those aren't depicted.

That's how I felt- horrible disasters happen to people all over the world. This image for me falls close to the category of 9/11 porn where this one particular tragedy was singled out and fetishized with the underlying attitude that American lives are worth more than other people's lives.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 02:06:43 PM »
Aren't there canons against painting icons merely for the sake of social commentary?
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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 02:21:07 PM »
I dunno, the iconographer who made it also makes icons of "St. Pio" and "St. Theresa of Calcutta" and such... not sure what to make of it.
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Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2011, 02:24:17 PM »
Hey, I like John Coltrane, let's make an icon of him...

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Offline AZCatholic

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2011, 02:40:07 PM »

I don't like it,either.

How does the 911 disaster warrant being depicted on an icon?

There were far worse disasters in Orthodox lands, and even those aren't depicted.

Icons are a window to Heaven, not Hell.


On another note, I've never seen a lone figure in an icon looking anywhere but, out at the viewer.  In this image, what is Christ supposed to be looking at?

...besides Christ should never represent a "defeated" image as this painting shows.

Christ was, is and always will be victorious!


What about icons of the Bridegroom?

Offline genesisone

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 02:53:08 PM »
It's religious art, and as such has its place. It's not an icon.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2011, 02:56:15 PM »
Liza and Iconodule sum up my own feelings very well.



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Offline Aidan

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 03:02:07 PM »

I don't like it,either.

How does the 911 disaster warrant being depicted on an icon?

There were far worse disasters in Orthodox lands, and even those aren't depicted.

That's how I felt- horrible disasters happen to people all over the world. This image for me falls close to the category of 9/11 porn where this one particular tragedy was singled out and fetishized with the underlying attitude that American lives are worth more than other people's lives.
What an incredible summing up!
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 03:53:47 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline LBK

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2011, 05:27:06 PM »
Definitely NOT an icon!! Iconography must never be a vehicle for sociopolitical commentary, no matter whether the cause is "good" or not. Where is the Orthodox theology or doctrine in this image? A similarly unsuitable image is the "abortion icon" showing Christ holding a fetus in a translucent orb instead of a Gospel book. It is most unfortunate, if not shameful, that this 9/11 image is sold or promoted by an Orthodox church.

The Extreme Humility icon, on the other hand, expresses the depths of the self-emptying of Christ, in that, as God, He took on human nature and became the Suffering Servant, willingly enduring suffering and death, taking our sins upon Himself and nailing them to the Cross for our salvation. It is, quite simply, the pictorial equivalent of the hymnography of Holy Week.

Iconodule and Liza's comments are spot-on.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2011, 05:51:31 PM »
Reminds me of pictures from the Soviet newspaper "Pravda" where the giant figure of the Proletariat of the World was holding buildings destroyed by evil Capitalists (for example, in Vietnam War etc.). What is lacking is the caption saying something like, "Beware, Wall Street, the righteous anger of the oppressed of the world will detroy you!" (Sorry, but Christ is as incidental on this "icon" as would be any other figure.)
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2011, 05:52:56 PM »
If someone wanted to hang it on their walls, it's their call, but personally, I think it's terrible; nothing more than sentimental patriotism (I'm not sure that patriotism is the right word, but can't think of any better before some protein intake) dressed up as religious comment.  I agree with Liza and Iconodule.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2011, 05:54:02 PM »
(Sorry, but Christ is as incidental on this "icon" as would be any other figure.)

I agree.
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Offline LBK

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2011, 05:57:15 PM »
Reminds me of pictures from the Soviet newspaper "Pravda" where the giant figure of the Proletariat of the World was holding buildings destroyed by evil Capitalists (for example, in Vietnam War etc.). What is lacking is the caption saying something like, "Beware, Wall Street, the righteous anger of the oppressed of the world will detroy you!" (Sorry, but Christ is as incidental on this "icon" as would be any other figure.)

An excellent observation, Heorhij! Well spoken! It expresses very well how false and deficient this travesty really is.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2011, 06:04:46 PM »
Yes, come to think of it, I think "propoganda" is the word I was looking for. duh. I'm useless, sometimes - a lot of the time!  :laugh:
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2011, 11:25:49 AM »
Sorry, I think that calling this thing an icon is nothing more than hyper-emotional nonsense. Where's the Gettysburg "icon"? Pearl Harbor "icon"?

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2011, 11:31:14 AM »
How is it different from that one?


While I don't like the Chernobyl one, either, it's different from the OP.  Christ is shown victorious, gazing out at the viewer.  Everyone else is looking at Him.  The message one gets from this icon is that even in tragedy, look to Christ.  The focus of the OP is the buildings, not Christ.

Again, I'm not a fan, but the artistic message, at least in my eyes, is vastly different.
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Offline sainthieu

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2011, 12:13:30 PM »
Icons are "theology in color"; that is, they depict scenes and personages from the Bible, exactly as they are portrayed in the Bible. Their purpose was, and is, to teach Christianity to the unlettered, to act as points of meditation, prayer, and enlightenment. Therefore, images not conforming to that fundamental requirement are not icons. An image of God as an old man with a white beard--the Ancient of Days--for example, is not a theologically-correct icon. Most Orthodox, myself included, consider it to be blasphemous. The main rationale for accepting images into the Church is the fact that it confirms that God manifested Himself as Jesus Christ, a human being---seen and known by all---an essential belief of the Church. No one has ever seen God, the Father; to take it upon one's self to represent Him and thus make Him smaller than He is, is absurd.

An icon can not be any darned thing we may want it to be. The 9/11 picture is a picture---not an icon. The person who painted it has not been well catechized and should talk to his priest to clear up their---serious--- misconceptions. Creating icons is not an act of self-expression; it is a theological ministry of the Church. The icon is not a vehicle for promoting political statements or any other worldly messages. Its purpose is strictly theological. This guy is imposing his own sentimental perspective on icons.

A lot of rotten and theologically unsound "icons" were produced in the 19th century. It's called "decadence." That's no reason for us to abandon the canons of the craft.
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 12:28:51 PM by sainthieu »

Offline genesisone

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2011, 12:35:33 PM »
Icons are "theology in color"; that is, they depict scenes and personages from the Bible, exactly as they are portrayed in the Bible. Their purpose was, and is, to teach Christianity to the unlettered, to act as points of meditation, prayer, and enlightenment. Therefore, images not conforming to that fundamental requirement are not icons. 
Umm.. not quite. The Pentecost icon is not Biblically accurate; the icons of the Nativity of Christ include many extra-Biblical elements; and more.... Then we have all the icons of our feasts that themselves are not Biblical.

An icon teaches the truth of the Christian faith. It may or may not be historically accurate (as we understand history today).

I hope you're not a Sola Scripturist iconophile  :)!

I wonder if the painter intended his/her painting to be an icon, or was simply mimicking an iconographic style as an art form. (Yes, I see big problems there, but that's another thread.)

Offline sainthieu

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2011, 12:48:23 PM »
I've studied with two famous iconographers, and I've never been a Protestant.

Offline genesisone

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2011, 12:59:18 PM »
I've studied with two famous iconographers, and I've never been a Protestant.
If I misunderstood your meaning of "scenes and personages from the Bible, exactly as they are portrayed in the Bible" please explain what you meant.

I'm guessing the misunderstanding is due to the wording, not to the concept - which is what I tried to express earlier, and apparently without success. Even the smiley didn't help :(.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: September 11 icon
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2011, 01:03:26 PM »
Besides everything else, It's ugly as sin. It looks like a hunkered down sad guy carrying a basket of world trade center in it.....not my Lord.

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