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Author Topic: was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?  (Read 1681 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 05, 2011, 10:42:10 AM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 10:47:20 AM »

Yes, you see the Orthodox referring to themselves as such, at least as far back as Nicaea I.
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 10:52:14 AM »

The holy Synod cried out:  So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed.  This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. - The Second Council of Nicaea

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.xii.html
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 11:24:00 AM »

Saint Augustine:

"Neither in the confusion of paganism nor in the defilement of heresy,
nor in the lethargy of schism, nor yet in blindness of Judaism is religion to be sought;
but among those alone who are called Catholic Christians, or the Orthodox, that is,
the custodians of sound doctrine and followers of right teaching."


~On True Religion, chapter 5

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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 12:16:19 PM »

It is interesting, as the Catholic church has always called itself the Catholic church, it is only in modern times the name Roman catholic Church came into play.

Where did the name Orthodox come from? and why was it named differently from the Catholic Church before the schism?

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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 12:28:03 PM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?

and it is still called the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 12:35:05 PM »

The term "Catholic Church" was deemed by the emperor in 380 when he declared that all Christians of the Empire were thenceforth to be known as "Catholic Christians". The following year this term was incorporated at ecumenical council into the Creed. "Catholic Christians" untainted by heresy were called "Orthodox" from that period. This term was used in both east and west as was the term Catholic.
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 12:39:18 PM »

The term "Catholic Church" was deemed by the emperor in 380 when he declared that all Christians of the Empire were thenceforth to be known as "Catholic Christians". The following year this term was incorporated at ecumenical council into the Creed. "Catholic Christians" untainted by heresy were called "Orthodox" from that period. This term was used in both east and west as was the term Catholic.

I see, thank you.
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 10:45:53 PM »

The One, Holy, Catholic (Gr.: katholiki, from "kata-holos", "according to the whole") and Apostolic Church of Christ has referred to itself as both "catholic" and "orthodox" since ancient times.

Both the Roman Church and what we call the "Eastern Orthodox" Church claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. Both also claim to be both "catholic" and "orthodox". However, over time, the Roman Church came to be known in the West as the "Catholic Church", and the Eastern Churches as "the Orthodox Church". Ecclesiologically speaking, both these labels are misleading, but I suppose we're stuck with them in the so-called diaspora.

The Church of Christ is both orthodox (right-teaching, right-believing, right-worshipping, right-glorifying) and catholic (whole, entire, lacking in nothing, universal).
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 10:50:39 PM »

The term "Catholic Church" was deemed by the emperor in 380 when he declared that all Christians of the Empire were thenceforth to be known as "Catholic Christians". The following year this term was incorporated at ecumenical council into the Creed. "Catholic Christians" untainted by heresy were called "Orthodox" from that period. This term was used in both east and west as was the term Catholic.
Btw, the Decree referred to defined the Catholics as those who were in communion with the Pontiff Damasus of Rome and Archbishop Peter of Alexandria.  The Ecumenical Council who incorporated this was opened by Patriarch St. Meletius of Antioch, who was not in communion with Pope Damasus of Rome nor Pope Peter of Alexandria.

On the communion of Damasus and Meletius: fourth-century synodal formulae in the Codex Veronensis LX By Lester L. Field, Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies
http://books.google.com/books?id=VWBNhNXoiz0C&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=380+Peter+Damasus+Catholic&source=bl&ots=e7X0tFpMvg&sig=aeaiVPPbOVoIq3to-TWeUkiNqj8&hl=en#v=onepage&q=380%20Peter%20Damasus%20Catholic&f=false
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 11:09:26 PM »

It is interesting, as the Catholic church has always called itself the Catholic church, it is only in modern times the name Roman catholic Church came into play.
Perhaps not solely, but this is partially a result of Anglo-Catholic semantics-playing, hence why only relatively recently in history one sees the term "Roman Catholic Church" used. Before that those who didn't recognize it as Catholic would simply refer to it as "the Roman Church" (or something less couth, depending on who was speaking).
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 12:04:13 AM »

The One, Holy, Catholic (Gr.: katholiki, from "kata-holos", "according to the whole") and Apostolic Church of Christ has referred to itself as both "catholic" and "orthodox" since ancient times.

Both the Roman Church and what we call the "Eastern Orthodox" Church claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. Both also claim to be both "catholic" and "orthodox". However, over time, the Roman Church came to be known in the West as the "Catholic Church", and the Eastern Churches as "the Orthodox Church". Ecclesiologically speaking, both these labels are misleading, but I suppose we're stuck with them in the so-called diaspora.

The Church of Christ is both orthodox (right-teaching, right-believing, right-worshipping, right-glorifying) and catholic (whole, entire, lacking in nothing, universal).

Very well said
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 12:28:11 AM »

The holy Synod cried out:  So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed.  This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. - The Second Council of Nicaea

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.xii.html

I see "Catholic" all over the place. I only see 'orthodox' that one time with the little 'o'. Not a good example.
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 01:30:15 AM »

The holy Synod cried out:  So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed.  This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. - The Second Council of Nicaea

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.xii.html

I see "Catholic" all over the place. I only see 'orthodox' that one time with the little 'o'. Not a good example.
Actually you see no such thing, as there was no such thing as "lower case" and "upper case" in the days of the Fathers.

Quote
Canon XXXVI.  (Greek xxxix.)

That bishops or clergymen are not to be ordained unless they have made all their family Christians.

None shall be ordained bishop, presbyters, or deacons before all the inmates of their houses shall have become Catholic Christians.

Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XXXVI.

He shall not be ordained who hath not made all his household orthodox.

This canon is Canon xvij. of the Synod of Hippo, a.d. 393.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.xxxvii.html

The Commonitory of Pope Theophilus
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Canon II.

Let [the priests] who have communicated with the Arians, be retained or rejected, as the custom of every church is; but so, that other orthodox [priests] be ordained, though the others continue.  As the orthodox bishops did in Thebais, so let it be in other cities.  They who were ordained by Bishop Apollo, and afterwards communicated with the Arians, if they did it of their own accord, let them be censured; but if they only did it in obedience to the bishop, let them be continued; but if all the people abdicate them, others must be ordained.  And if Bistus the priest be found to have committed uncleanness with a woman dismissed from her husband, let him not be permitted to be a priest.  But this is no prejudice to the bishop who ordained him, if he did it ignorantly; since the Holy Synod commands unworthy men to be ejected, though they be not convicted until after ordination.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xxvi.html

Canons of the Ecumenical Council  of Ephesus
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Canon I.

Whereas it is needful that they who were detained from the holy Synod and remained in their own district or city, for any reason, ecclesiastical or personal, should not be ignorant of the matters which were thereby decreed; we, therefore, notify your holiness and charity that if any Metropolitan of a Province, forsaking the holy and Ecumenical Synod, has joined the assembly of the apostates, or shall join the same hereafter; or, if he has adopted, or shall hereafter adopt, the doctrines of Celestius, he has no power in any way to do anything in opposition to the bishops of the province, since he is already cast forth from all ecclesiastical communion and made incapable of exercising his ministry; but he shall himself be subject in all things to those very bishops of the province and to the neighbouring orthodox metropolitans, and shall be degraded from his episcopal rank.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.ii.html


After the reading of the Tome of Pope St. Leo into the Acts of Chalcedon, after the Fathers had examined it:
Quote
After the reading of the foregoing epistle, the most reverend bishops cried out:  This is the faith of the fathers, this is the faith of the Apostles.  So we all believe, thus the orthodox believe.  Anathema to him who does not thus believe.  Peter has spoken thus through Leo.  So taught the Apostles.  Piously and truly did Leo teach, so taught Cyril.  Everlasting be the memory of Cyril.  Leo and Cyril taught the same thing, anathema to him who does not so believe.  This is the true faith.  Those of us who are orthodox thus believe.  This is the faith of the fathers.  Why were not these things read at Ephesus [i.e. at the heretical synod held there]?  These are the things Dioscorus hid away.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xi.viii.html

Sixth Ecumenical Council (note the mention of Pope Honorius)
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Many years to the Emperor!  Many years to Constantine, our great Emperor!  Many years to the Orthodox King!  Many years to our Emperor that maketh peace!  Many years to Constantine, a second Martian!  Many years to Constantine, a new Theodosius!  Many years to Constantine, a new Justinian!  Many years to the keeper of the orthodox faith!  O Lord preserve the foundation of the Churches!  O Lord preserve the keeper of the faith!

Many years to Agatho, Pope of Rome!  Many years to George, Patriarch of Constantinople!  Many years to Theophanus, Patriarch of Antioch!  Many years to the orthodox council!  Many years to the orthodox Senate!

To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema!  To Sergius, the heretic, anathema!  To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema!  To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!  To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema!

To Paul the heretic, anathema!

To Peter the heretic, anathema!

To Macarius the heretic, anathema!

To Stephen the heretic, anathema!

To Polychronius the heretic, anathema!

To Apergius of Perga the heretic, anathema!

To all heretics, anathema!  To all who side with heretics, anathema!

May the faith of the Christians increase, and long years to the orthodox and Ecumenical Council!
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiii.ix.html

Council of Trullo
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Canon LXXII.

An orthodox man is not permitted to marry an heretical woman, nor an orthodox woman to be joined to an heretical man.  But if anything of this kind appear to have been done by any [we require them] to consider the marriage null, and that the marriage be dissolved.  For it is not fitting to mingle together what should not be mingled, nor is it right that the sheep be joined with the wolf, nor the lot of sinners with the portion of Christ.  But if any one shall transgress the things which we have decreed let him be cut off.  But if any who up to this time are unbelievers and are not yet numbered in the flock of the orthodox have contracted lawful marriage between themselves, and if then, one choosing the right and coming to the light of truth and the other remaining still detained by the bond of error and not willing to behold with steady eye the divine rays, the unbelieving woman is pleased to cohabit with the believing man, or the unbelieving man with the believing woman, let them not be separated, according to the divine Apostle, “for the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife by her husband.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiv.iii.lxxiii.html

The Letter of Pope Hadrian to the Seventh Ecumenical Council
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If the ancient orthodoxy be perfected and restored by your means in those regions, and the venerable icons be placed in their original state, you will be partakers with the Lord Constantine, Emperor of old, now in the Divine keeping, and the Empress Helena, who made conspicuous and confirmed the orthodox Faith, and exalted still more your holy mother, the Catholic and Roman and spiritual Church, and with the orthodox Emperors who ruled after them, and so your most pious and heaven-protected name likewise will be set forth as that of another Constantine and another Helena, being renowned and praised through the whole world, by whom the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is restored.  And especially if you follow the tradition of the orthodox Faith of the Church of the holy Peter and Paul, the chief Apostles, and embrace their Vicar, as the Emperors who reigned before you of old both honoured their Vicar, and loved him with all their heart:  and if your sacred majesty honour the most holy Roman Church of the chief Apostles, to whom was given power by God the Word himself to loose and to bind sins in heaven and earth.  For they will extend their shield over your power, and all barbarous nations shall be put under your feet:  and wherever you go they will make you conquerors.  For the holy and chief Apostles themselves, who set up the Catholic and orthodox Faith, have laid it down as a written law that all who after them are to be successors of their seats, should hold their Faith and remain in it to the end.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.vi.html

little tired right, so that will have to do for now
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 01:50:14 AM »

It is interesting, as the Catholic church has always called itself the Catholic church, it is only in modern times the name Roman catholic Church came into play.
Perhaps not solely, but this is partially a result of Anglo-Catholic semantics-playing, hence why only relatively recently in history one sees the term "Roman Catholic Church" used. Before that those who didn't recognize it as Catholic would simply refer to it as "the Roman Church" (or something less couth, depending on who was speaking).
Actually, IIRC, at Trent they refered to themselves as the "Roman Church".
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 01:56:23 AM »

The holy Synod cried out:  So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed.  This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. - The Second Council of Nicaea

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.xii.html

I see "Catholic" all over the place. I only see 'orthodox' that one time with the little 'o'. Not a good example.
There was no lowercase in Greek until the 9th century, shortly after the Council, but after nonetheless.
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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 02:56:46 AM »

The holy Synod cried out:  So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed.  This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. - The Second Council of Nicaea

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.xii.html

I see "Catholic" all over the place. I only see 'orthodox' that one time with the little 'o'. Not a good example.

An argument based on modern orthography won't work

Capital letters don't indicate anything.  Latin did not have upper and lower case letters until the 12th century.

Other languages, English for example, developed upper and lower case letters centuries later.  Irish still does not have any distinction and these days lower case letters are simply written larger for capitals.
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 07:32:08 PM »

Pope Leo III of Rome had the Nicean Creed (without filioque) engraved on silver tablets and placed at the tomb of St. Peter. Above The Symbol of Faith he inscribed:

"Haec Leo posui amore et cautela Orthodoxae Fidei"

"I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith"

That was in the early 800's.
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2011, 11:37:41 PM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?

No they weren't called Orthodox as you see here in Acts 24:5 Paul is accused before Felix at Caesarea by Tertullus of being "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. There are still a real sect of Nazarenes in Israel today that are in good standing with the Orthodox jews there today. What happen was that the Nazarenes split over the divinity of Jesus and the 613 laws. thats were you get Nazarenes to Orthodox 
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2012, 09:57:03 PM »

Pope Leo III of Rome had the Nicean Creed (without filioque) engraved on silver tablets and placed at the tomb of St. Peter. Above The Symbol of Faith he inscribed:

"Haec Leo posui amore et cautela Orthodoxae Fidei"

"I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith"

That was in the early 800's.

Does anyone know if that's still around? I'd love to see it when I'm in Rome this summer.
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2012, 10:02:53 PM »

No, William. It was in Old St. Peter's Basilica; the Basilica was torn down, in order to build the current edifice.
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »

Once my spiritual father explained it like this....

Catholic --In ancient times the term "catholic" was used of the faith and the Church.

Orthodox  --  The term "orthodox" was used for the Christians who held the catholic faith and who were members of the One Church.

"I am orthodox because I hold the catholic faith."
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2012, 10:23:21 PM »

Notice how the Eastern Patriarchs, as a matter of course refer to the Catholic Church

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

You see Orthodox Faith often said in the encyclical, but, when referring to what we call the Orthodox Church today, they say, "The Catholic Church". To them, it would be unthinkable to call Rome the 'Catholic Church'.
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2012, 10:38:21 PM »

It is interesting, as the Catholic church has always called itself the Catholic church, it is only in modern times the name Roman catholic Church came into play.
Perhaps not solely, but this is partially a result of Anglo-Catholic semantics-playing, hence why only relatively recently in history one sees the term "Roman Catholic Church" used. Before that those who didn't recognize it as Catholic would simply refer to it as "the Roman Church" (or something less couth, depending on who was speaking).
Actually, IIRC, at Trent they refered to themselves as the "Roman Church".

Correct, and Vatican I is emphatic on "Roman."  In fact, there was a faction that just wanted to reduce it to "Catholic Church" and it was SHOT DOWN by Vatican I, as it was well known that the Orthodox also called themselves the Catholic Church, and furthermore, in light of Anglo-Catholic movement within the Anglican Communion, it was to be known as Roman.  Vatican II, on the other hand, decided to de-emphasize the "Roman" part, which is why, even though the Orthodox Church frequently referred to itself as "Catholic Church" or "Orthodox Catholic Church" in the 19th and early 20th century, it would be "reduced" to "Orthodox" after Vatican II and Roman Catholic to "Catholic" after Vatican II. 
 
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2012, 10:39:28 PM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?

and it is still called the Catholic Church.

Correct, although it gets exhausting trying to get that through to our own people. 
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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2012, 10:44:34 PM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?

and it is still called the Catholic Church.

Correct, although it gets exhausting trying to get that through to our own people. 

Father, what do the Orthodox faithful in the old world call the Church?
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« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2012, 11:02:16 PM »


The Russians have created an interesting linguistic distinction.


кафолический  - kafolicheski – with the original meaning of “catholic”

католический  - katolicheski = meaning “Roman Catholic”


In conversation it is immediately apparent if one is speaking of something to do with the Orthodox Church or with the Roman Catholic Churcjh.
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 07:21:36 PM »


The Russians have created an interesting linguistic distinction.


кафолический  - kafolicheski – with the original meaning of “catholic”

католический  - katolicheski = meaning “Roman Catholic”


In conversation it is immediately apparent if one is speaking of something to do with the Orthodox Church or with the Roman Catholic Churcjh.

Correct.  Thank you for pointing that out Father. 
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2012, 07:30:24 PM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?

and it is still called the Catholic Church.

Correct, although it gets exhausting trying to get that through to our own people. 

Father, what do the Orthodox faithful in the old world call the Church?

In 1105, 1235, 1351, 1443, 1472, 1583, 1672, 1721, 1773, 1819, 1835, 1848, 1872, it was called most frequently "the Catholic Church."  Read, for example, the writings of St. Paisius Velichovsky where the word Orthodox does not come up at all. 

In 1895 we have "Orthodox Catholic," a phrase that lasted until about 1950.  Now we have predominantly "Orthodox Church" by itself in commonspeak.  But still in official documents, such as the message of the primates, it is the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of God" and "Orthodox Church" used synonymously. 
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2012, 07:31:58 PM »

^I should mention that "Orthodox Catholic" was used going back quite a ways.  It is in the Synodikon.  But "Catholic Church" was used in most simple form more often, but still along with "Orthodox Church." 
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« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2012, 10:48:14 PM »

Was orthodoxy called orthodox before the schism?

No they weren't called Orthodox as you see here in Acts 24:5 Paul is accused before Felix at Caesarea by Tertullus of being "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. There are still a real sect of Nazarenes in Israel today that are in good standing with the Orthodox jews there today. What happen was that the Nazarenes split over the divinity of Jesus and the 613 laws. thats were you get Nazarenes to Orthodox 

Please note we were talking about Orthodox Christianity and noy Orthodox Judaism. This is the Orthodox Christian Comvert Issues Form.
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