Author Topic: Vicars of Christ.  (Read 529 times)

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Offline Raylight

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Vicars of Christ.
« on: June 18, 2014, 05:04:58 PM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2014, 05:24:34 PM »
Well, this is an Orthodox forum...

Christ doesn't need a Vicar. (Matthew 28:20)
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Offline Raylight

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2014, 05:38:39 PM »
Well, this is an Orthodox forum...

Christ doesn't need a Vicar. (Matthew 28:20)

I mean for the Catholic understanding that Christ need a Vicar.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2014, 10:36:45 PM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?
No.

Yes.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2014, 10:42:31 PM »
sounds Protestant to me.

We are all icons of Christ though.

Well, supposed to be anyway. I'd be in the "schlock icons" thread, for example  ::)
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Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2014, 10:49:26 PM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?

When you say Catholics are you referring of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church or somebody else?

 ;D  ;)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 10:49:55 PM by Cantor Krishnich »
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Offline Sam G

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 11:19:26 PM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?

In the Catholic Church, the "Vicar of Christ" is a role that is unique to the Bishop of Rome.  Bishops, including the Bishop Rome, are seen as the successors of the Apostles, but only the Bishop of Rome is seen as the unique successor of St. Peter.

It would be heresy to say that anyone, even another Bishop, could fulfill this role.  Only the Bishop of Rome as part of his office can inherit and take part in "the Petrine Ministry" which includes the title "Vicar of Christ".  It would also be worth noting that St. Leo the Great referred to himself as a Vicar, but not of Christ.  St. Leo saw himself as the "Vicar of St. Peter".
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Offline Raylight

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2014, 05:30:15 AM »
sounds Protestant to me.

We are all icons of Christ though.

Well, supposed to be anyway. I'd be in the "schlock icons" thread, for example  ::)

Lol.  :D
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 05:30:52 AM by Raylight »
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.

Offline Raylight

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2014, 05:35:00 AM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?

When you say Catholics are you referring of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church or somebody else?

 ;D  ;)


That is confusing, because the Orthodox and the Anglican also use the word " Catholic " to describe their Church. But I mean the Catholic who follow the Church of Rome  ;)
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2014, 09:15:28 AM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar

I hope this may answer you question:

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2014, 04:22:18 PM »
Raylight, since your decision to become Roman Catholic, have you found many RCC friends and resources?
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2014, 05:06:20 PM »
Could we ( Catholics ), say that " All the believers are Vicars of Christ " somehow. And not only The Pope and the Bishops ?

Would that be a heresy if someone believed such thing ?

In the Catholic Church, the "Vicar of Christ" is a role that is unique to the Bishop of Rome.  Bishops, including the Bishop Rome, are seen as the successors of the Apostles, but only the Bishop of Rome is seen as the unique successor of St. Peter.

It would be heresy to say that anyone, even another Bishop, could fulfill this role.  Only the Bishop of Rome as part of his office can inherit and take part in "the Petrine Ministry" which includes the title "Vicar of Christ".  It would also be worth noting that St. Leo the Great referred to himself as a Vicar, but not of Christ.  St. Leo saw himself as the "Vicar of St. Peter".

Wrong.

894 "The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.426
1560 As Christ's vicar, each bishop has the pastoral care of the particular Church entrusted to him, but at the same time he bears collegially with all his brothers in the episcopacy the solicitude for all the Churches: "Though each bishop is the lawful pastor only of the portion of the flock entrusted to his care, as a legitimate successor of the apostles he is, by divine institution and precept, responsible with the other bishops for the apostolic mission of the Church."41
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Offline Sam G

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 12:02:42 AM »
From Vatican I:
Quote
And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church.

This was the quote from Vatican I that I had in mind. I will grant you that it says nothing about whether or not the Bishop of Rome is the only Vicar of Christ, it simply says that he is the true Vicar.  What that means in relation to other bishops, I can't say really.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2014, 10:55:54 AM »
From Vatican I:
Quote
And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church.

This was the quote from Vatican I that I had in mind. I will grant you that it says nothing about whether or not the Bishop of Rome is the only Vicar of Christ, it simply says that he is the true Vicar.  What that means in relation to other bishops, I can't say really.
It doesn't say the true Vicar of Christ. It just says true Vicar of Christ. The former would exclude other true vicars, while the latter would not.
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Offline Sam G

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2014, 11:32:28 AM »
From Vatican I:
Quote
And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church.

This was the quote from Vatican I that I had in mind. I will grant you that it says nothing about whether or not the Bishop of Rome is the only Vicar of Christ, it simply says that he is the true Vicar.  What that means in relation to other bishops, I can't say really.
It doesn't say the true Vicar of Christ. It just says true Vicar of Christ. The former would exclude other true vicars, while the latter would not.

But by that logic there's also no the in front of head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people, which I don't think any Catholic would deny can only apply to the Pope.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2014, 05:13:41 PM »
From Vatican I:
Quote
And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church.

This was the quote from Vatican I that I had in mind. I will grant you that it says nothing about whether or not the Bishop of Rome is the only Vicar of Christ, it simply says that he is the true Vicar.  What that means in relation to other bishops, I can't say really.

I just quoted the Catechsim of the Catholic Church which tells you.  I do apologize I forgot the attribution in former post.
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Offline Sam G

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2014, 05:49:13 PM »
From Vatican I:
Quote
And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church.

This was the quote from Vatican I that I had in mind. I will grant you that it says nothing about whether or not the Bishop of Rome is the only Vicar of Christ, it simply says that he is the true Vicar.  What that means in relation to other bishops, I can't say really.

I just quoted the Catechsim of the Catholic Church which tells you.  I do apologize I forgot the attribution in former post.

My mistake for not recognizing. I've done some more reading on the issue and you could have easily quoted Vatican II as well.  I think it would be fair to say, for Raylight's sake, that Bishops may be called "Vicar's of Christ" according to Catholic teaching but laymen can definitely not.
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Offline Raylight

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Re: Vicars of Christ.
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2014, 05:57:13 PM »
From Vatican I:
Quote
And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church.

This was the quote from Vatican I that I had in mind. I will grant you that it says nothing about whether or not the Bishop of Rome is the only Vicar of Christ, it simply says that he is the true Vicar.  What that means in relation to other bishops, I can't say really.

I just quoted the Catechsim of the Catholic Church which tells you.  I do apologize I forgot the attribution in former post.

My mistake for not recognizing. I've done some more reading on the issue and you could have easily quoted Vatican II as well.  I think it would be fair to say, for Raylight's sake, that Bishops may be called "Vicar's of Christ" according to Catholic teaching but laymen can definitely not.

Thank you Sam G :)

Now I got the answer.
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.