Author Topic: Leavened vs unleavened bread.  (Read 9355 times)

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2014, 04:46:16 PM »
No John must be read in the context of the other 3 or else there is a blatant contradiction between the synoptics and John

So how do you reconcile the different chronology?  Even if you read John in conjunction with the Synoptics, it is there. 

Christ celebrated the Essene Passover which fell before the Pharisee Passover. This would resolve the apparent contradiction of the Seder described in the Synoptics and the Crucifixion coinciding with the sacrifice of the Pascha lambs in John.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070405_coena-domini_en.html
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2014, 04:51:07 PM »
No John must be read in the context of the other 3 or else there is a blatant contradiction between the synoptics and John

So how do you reconcile the different chronology?  Even if you read John in conjunction with the Synoptics, it is there. 

Christ celebrated the Essene Passover which fell before the Pharisee Passover. This would resolve the apparent contradiction of the Seder described in the Synoptics and the Crucifixion coinciding with the sacrifice of the Pascha lambs in John.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070405_coena-domini_en.html
I have read that too, but there really is no evidence to confirm it as accurate.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2014, 04:54:07 PM »
As far as I know and have read, there was no discrimination in this regard. Bread in the city around this time was unleavened.

No discrimination but they were forced to eat unleavened bread? Is not logical what you write here.

Nope, you got it wrong. The bread that used in the mass in Lanciano is unleavened bread.


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Discrimination as in set out different things for different peoples. Anybody who came to Jerusalem around this time knew what to expect. It was a Jewish city that adheres to mosaic law which prohibited any leavened bread during this time. Leavened bread was cleaned out of the city days before the week began so as to prepare the city for the holy week
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 04:54:48 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2014, 04:59:45 PM »
No John must be read in the context of the other 3 or else there is a blatant contradiction between the synoptics and John

So how do you reconcile the different chronology?  Even if you read John in conjunction with the Synoptics, it is there.  

Christ celebrated the Essene Passover which fell before the Pharisee Passover. This would resolve the apparent contradiction of the Seder described in the Synoptics and the Crucifixion coinciding with the sacrifice of the Pascha lambs in John.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070405_coena-domini_en.html
I have read that too, but there really is no evidence to confirm it as accurate.

There isn't any evidence for any of the theories, Latin or Greek.  One only has the Gospels, historical knowledge and an apparent contradiction.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 05:01:23 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2014, 05:53:32 PM »
Discrimination as in set out different things for different peoples. Anybody who came to Jerusalem around this time knew what to expect. It was a Jewish city that adheres to mosaic law which prohibited any leavened bread during this time. Leavened bread was cleaned out of the city days before the week began so as to prepare the city for the holy week

Hard for me to believe Pilate would be not allowed by the Jews to eat whatever he wants.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2014, 09:06:02 PM »
No John must be read in the context of the other 3 or else there is a blatant contradiction between the synoptics and John

So how do you reconcile the different chronology?  Even if you read John in conjunction with the Synoptics, it is there.  

Christ celebrated the Essene Passover which fell before the Pharisee Passover. This would resolve the apparent contradiction of the Seder described in the Synoptics and the Crucifixion coinciding with the sacrifice of the Pascha lambs in John.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070405_coena-domini_en.html
I have read that too, but there really is no evidence to confirm it as accurate.

There isn't any evidence for any of the theories, Latin or Greek.  One only has the Gospels, historical knowledge and an apparent contradiction.
Agreed. I think that the Gospels should be accepted as written, and concerns over differences in their narratives are really not that important.

As far as historical practice is concerned, it shows that leavened bread was used by all until the 4th/5th century when the Armenians began using unleavened bread, and then in the 8th/9th century Rome adopted a new practice by using unleavened bread as well.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2014, 09:27:32 PM »
As St. John of Damascus says: "In the upper chamber, then, of holy and illustrious Sion, after He had eaten the ancient Passover with His disciples and had fulfilled the ancient covenant, He washed His disciples' feet in token of the holy baptism.  Then, having broken bread, he gave it to them saying, 'take eat this is my body broken for you for the remission of sins...'" (On the Orthodox Faith, 4.13)

Offline Father H

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2014, 09:31:21 PM »
^BTW this was written before the Latins had switched to azyma.

Also, all those "scholars" who say that artos can also include unleavened bread cannot show one bit of evidence to that effect.  There are many scholars who hold that the showbread was leavened.  We know that it had to be leavened at Pentecost.  In fact, many scholars argue that both the Hebrew and Greek for showbread indicates leavened bread only.    
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:36:24 PM by Father H »

Offline Father H

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2014, 09:35:31 PM »
Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2014, 12:06:48 AM »
^BTW this was written before the Latins had switched to azyma.

Also, all those "scholars" who say that artos can also include unleavened bread cannot show one bit of evidence to that effect.  There are many scholars who hold that the showbread was leavened.  We know that it had to be leavened at Pentecost.  In fact, many scholars argue that both the Hebrew and Greek for showbread indicates leavened bread only.    

The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.
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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2014, 12:16:33 AM »
[The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.
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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2014, 12:22:46 AM »
[The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.
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How important is this anyway?  We have one tradition in the west and another tradition in the east.....

Offline Wandile

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2014, 03:39:33 AM »
^BTW this was written before the Latins had switched to azyma.

Also, all those "scholars" who say that artos can also include unleavened bread cannot show one bit of evidence to that effect.  There are many scholars who hold that the showbread was leavened.  We know that it had to be leavened at Pentecost.  In fact, many scholars argue that both the Hebrew and Greek for showbread indicates leavened bread only.    

The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2014, 03:59:29 AM »
Ok. so the bread that more likely was used in the last supper is the unleavened bread.

Anyway, I believe that whether this bread or that bread. If God wants to change it to his blood and flesh, then he more certainly could.

God bless all of us.

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2014, 12:22:35 PM »
^BTW this was written before the Latins had switched to azyma.

Also, all those "scholars" who say that artos can also include unleavened bread cannot show one bit of evidence to that effect.  There are many scholars who hold that the showbread was leavened.  We know that it had to be leavened at Pentecost.  In fact, many scholars argue that both the Hebrew and Greek for showbread indicates leavened bread only.   

The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.
Leviticus 2 is not talking about the bread of presence (i.e., the showbread); instead, it is talking about a cereal offering brought to the priests for offering upon the altar of the Lord. The showbread was not offered upon the altar, which is why it remains an open question as to whether or not it was leavened or unleavened. Certain scholars have favored the former idea, while others have favored the latter.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 12:23:13 PM by Apotheoun »
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2014, 12:27:11 PM »
Ok. so the bread that more likely was used in the last supper is the unleavened bread.
It is impossible to say with any certainty whether the bread of the Last Supper was leavened or unleavened. The Synoptic Gospels present the supper as a seder meal, while John's Gospel goes out of its way to say that it was not.

The most that can be said is that the universal Eucharistic practice of the first centuries of the Church's history involved the use of leavened bread, which was brought by the faithful themselves to the liturgy and offered up by the bishop and his co-workers (i.e., the priests) to God the Father as a memorial of Christ's life, passion, death, resurrection, ascension, and glorious second coming.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2014, 01:16:24 PM »
^BTW this was written before the Latins had switched to azyma.

Also, all those "scholars" who say that artos can also include unleavened bread cannot show one bit of evidence to that effect.  There are many scholars who hold that the showbread was leavened.  We know that it had to be leavened at Pentecost.  In fact, many scholars argue that both the Hebrew and Greek for showbread indicates leavened bread only.   

The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.
Leviticus 2 is not talking about the bread of presence (i.e., the showbread); instead, it is talking about a cereal offering brought to the priests for offering upon the altar of the Lord. The showbread was not offered upon the altar, which is why it remains an open question as to whether or not it was leavened or unleavened. Certain scholars have favored the former idea, while others have favored the latter.

Leviticus 26 talks about them and while they were not a burnt offering, they were still an offering.  Leaven was considerd an impurity and would not have been allowed.  And we have the witness of Josephus.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2014, 01:39:15 PM »
^BTW this was written before the Latins had switched to azyma.

Also, all those "scholars" who say that artos can also include unleavened bread cannot show one bit of evidence to that effect.  There are many scholars who hold that the showbread was leavened.  We know that it had to be leavened at Pentecost.  In fact, many scholars argue that both the Hebrew and Greek for showbread indicates leavened bread only.   

The Septuagint is the evidence.  Leviticus 2 says they were unleavened and yet the Septuagint uses artos to name them.  Josephus also says they were unleavened.
Leviticus 2 is not talking about the bread of presence (i.e., the showbread); instead, it is talking about a cereal offering brought to the priests for offering upon the altar of the Lord. The showbread was not offered upon the altar, which is why it remains an open question as to whether or not it was leavened or unleavened. Certain scholars have favored the former idea, while others have favored the latter.

Leviticus 26 talks about them and while they were not a burnt offering, they were still an offering.  Leaven was considerd an impurity and would not have been allowed.  And we have the witness of Josephus.
The bread of the presence was not a burnt offering, and leaven was only prohibited in cereal offerings intended for the brazen altar. Scholars do not agree on whether or not the showbread was leavened or unleavened. Moreover, thanksgiving offerings were leavened, and an argument can be made that the Eucharist is a thanksgiving offering.

Besides, the universal practice of the Church prior to the change made by the Armenian Church was to offer leavened bread to God in the Eucharist.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2014, 01:42:47 PM »
. . . Leaven was considerd an impurity and would not have been allowed. 
Leaven is also used by Christ in the New Testament as a symbol of the power of God and the growth of the heavenly kingdom.
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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2014, 02:05:56 PM »
My guess:  The first Jewish Christians would have celebrated the Eucharist with unleavened bread on the one Sunday that fell within the week of Unleavened Bread, and with leavened bread the rest of the year.  The first Gentile Christians would have used leavened bread almost always, but travelers on a journey might well have used unleavened journey-bread if no other was available. 

Various explanations for the Latin church's adoption of unleavened bread as the normal practice have been given.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2014, 02:27:09 PM »
My guess:  The first Jewish Christians would have celebrated the Eucharist with unleavened bread on the one Sunday that fell within the week of Unleavened Bread, and with leavened bread the rest of the year.  The first Gentile Christians would have used leavened bread almost always, but travelers on a journey might well have used unleavened journey-bread if no other was available. 

Various explanations for the Latin church's adoption of unleavened bread as the normal practice have been given.
Leavened bread was consumed throughout the year by the Jews, so I see no reason to "guess" that Jewish Christians used unleavened bread for the Eucharist. Moreover, the Roman Church did not adopt the practice of using unleavened bread until the 8th/9th century.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2014, 02:30:53 PM »
The two loaves offered to the Lord at Shavuot are leavened, and the Holy Spirit was given to the early Christians at that feast. Leaven causes bread to rise, and the Spirit gives growth to the Kingdom of God.
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Offline Luke

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2014, 03:29:59 PM »
My guess:  The first Jewish Christians would have celebrated the Eucharist with unleavened bread on the one Sunday that fell within the week of Unleavened Bread, and with leavened bread the rest of the year.  The first Gentile Christians would have used leavened bread almost always, but travelers on a journey might well have used unleavened journey-bread if no other was available. 

Various explanations for the Latin church's adoption of unleavened bread as the normal practice have been given.
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Offline arrow prayer

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2014, 06:10:04 PM »
i came accross this website today....don't know if it's of any use to you
http://thelifeoftheworld.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/leavened-vs-unleavened-bread/
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Offline Laird

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2014, 09:53:46 PM »
Does anyone know whether the Fathers considered the Last Supper to be a Passover meal or not? Father H in reply #51 shows that St. John of Damascus believes the Last Supper to be a Passover. What about the others?

Nope because the only bread available in the Holy City was unleavened during the Passover. The last supper was a Passover seder. The gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are consistent in explicitly showing this.

So John is lying?

So the Synoptics are lying? These types of questions are unhelpful and will get us no where. I think it is arbitrary to prefer John over the others without any other evidence.

I think this debate ultimately does not matter. Does it really matter whether leavened or unleavened bread was used? The East has their tradition and the West has their tradition. Why make a big deal out of it?

« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 09:58:35 PM by Laird »
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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2014, 10:35:56 PM »
Nope because the only bread available in the Holy City was unleavened during the Passover. The last supper was a Passover seder. The gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are consistent in explicitly showing this.

So John is lying?

So the Synoptics are lying? These types of questions are unhelpful and will get us no where.

I agree.  ;)

Quote
I think it is arbitrary to prefer John over the others without any other evidence.

Sure.  Like many other liturgical matters, I suspect customs evolved in a very boring way (e.g., "We need bread for the Eucharist", followed by "Here is some bread") and took on "deeper" meaning in the attempt to explain practice A in light of practices B and C in other places. 

Quote
I think this debate ultimately does not matter. Does it really matter whether leavened or unleavened bread was used? The East has their tradition and the West has their tradition. Why make a big deal out of it?

The debate, for the most part, was between the Latin West and the Greek West.  In the East, both leavened (more common) and unleavened (less common) have been used and are still used without any problem.  If it ever comes up in polemical literature within the Church, there's usually something else going on and this is just another way of fighting that main battle...the same policy as in the West. 
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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2014, 11:25:47 PM »
The debate, for the most part, was between the Latin West and the Greek West.  In the East, both leavened (more common) and unleavened (less common) have been used and are still used without any problem.  If it ever comes up in polemical literature within the Church, there's usually something else going on and this is just another way of fighting that main battle...the same policy as in the West.

Do any of your teachers still teach that the use of unleavened bread in and of itself amounts to Apollinarinanism?  Certainly the Pedalion, at least in the translations I've seen, hasn't been updated to expunge this notion that unleavened bread = Apollinarianism.

For what it's worth, in my parish we use both:  We use unleavened bread most of the time since it's inexpensive and can be stored for long periods without spoiling.  On high holydays we often use leavened bread baked by parishoners.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 11:29:42 PM by Mockingbird »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2014, 11:32:15 PM »
Do any of your teachers still teach that the use of unleavened bread in and of itself amounts to Apollinarinanism?  Certainly the Pedalion, at least in the translations I've seen, hasn't been updated to expunge this notion that unleavened bread = Apollinarianism.

AFAIK, if they did once, they do not at present. 

Quote
For what it's worth, in my parish we use both:  We use unleavened bread most of the time since it's inexpensive and can be stored for long periods without spoiling.  On high holydays we often use leavened bread baked by parishoners.

We don't do that.  Each tradition uses one or the other: Armenians use unleavened bread, and the rest of us leavened.  There's no mix and match when it comes to bread.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2014, 10:53:57 AM »
In either case though...no saltines.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Leavened vs unleavened bread.
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2014, 08:44:27 PM »
Does anyone know whether the Fathers considered the Last Supper to be a Passover meal or not? Father H in reply #51 shows that St. John of Damascus believes the Last Supper to be a Passover. What about the others?

Nope because the only bread available in the Holy City was unleavened during the Passover. The last supper was a Passover seder. The gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are consistent in explicitly showing this.

So John is lying?

So the Synoptics are lying? These types of questions are unhelpful and will get us no where. I think it is arbitrary to prefer John over the others without any other evidence.

I think this debate ultimately does not matter. Does it really matter whether leavened or unleavened bread was used? The East has their tradition and the West has their tradition. Why make a big deal out of it?



I think that you must have misread the post from St. John of Damascus.  It says clearly that after he had eaten the Passover, he then washed the disciples feet, and then offered the Mystical Supper.  The point is that on that night he brought the Old Covenant to the end by celebrating the final passover, and then inaugurated the New Covenant by giving His Body and Blood.