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JR
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« on: September 01, 2011, 02:02:46 PM »

Does Orthodoxy have Cardinals, or the Equivalent?
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 02:16:11 PM »

What equivalents? How different should they be from other Bishops to be considered the equivalents of the Cardinals?
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 02:29:02 PM »

What equivalents? How different should they be from other Bishops to be considered the equivalents of the Cardinals?

what a stupid reply ! don't you believe in helping people come to Orthodoxy?

I was asking because I don't know anything about the Orthodox hierarchy, only the RCC hierarchy.

If I new the answers to my questions then I would not be on here trying to find out, would I?

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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 02:32:15 PM »

And I know nothing about the Cardinals so you can firstly explain how Cardinals are different from the other Bishops.
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 02:32:27 PM »

No. We do not have the equivalent of a Roman pope either, at least in its post-Gregorian Reformation context.

Instead, we have bishops, archbishops, metropolitans, and patriarchs. An archbishop, metropolitan, or patriarch may be the head of an autocephalous church. There are about a dozen of those, each governing itself and being in communion with the others--for example, the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Moscow, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. There is no superbishop like the Roman pope of the last 1,000 years who exercises jurisdiction over the whole world.
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 02:42:27 PM »

The closest thing to a Cardinal would be a bishop who is a member of the Holy Synod of a given Church. On an individual level each is still only a bishop, collectively the Holy Synod holds considerably more power than the College of Cardinals in the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 02:44:20 PM »

And I know nothing about the Cardinals so you can firstly explain how Cardinals are different from the other Bishops.

This page can explain it better than myself.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals.asp
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 02:48:44 PM »

The closest thing to a Cardinal would be a bishop who is a member of the Holy Synod of a given Church. On an individual level each is still only a bishop, collectively the Holy Synod holds considerably more power than the College of Cardinals in the Catholic Church.

So in reality everybody within the orthodox church is equal? there is no head?

Does that also mean that any decisions that need to be made are voted on? and everybody has an equal vote?

Sorry for so many questions.
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 02:52:28 PM »

So from the start:
- there is no universal jurisdiction within the Church
- the greatest legislature within the each autocephalous Church is a local council which is made from all Bishops and priest, monk and lay delegates from all dioceses (usually it choose the Church's primate)
- legislature of the lower rank is the bishopric council which consists from all ruling or ruling and vicar bishops (is some Churches they choose primates)
- some bigger Churches have bishopric synods which are made from limited number of bishops of the main sees that rules the autocephalus Church in daily issues
- but in every diocese the main power is in the hands of the diocesan bishop

Some Churches like Serbian Church have other traditions of choosing it's primates (they draw from the 3 most popular candidates).

Each autocephalous Church has own internal regulations of governing itself.

Universal Church decisions are made by the delegates from all the autocephalous Churches or by the Ecumenical COuncil (all ruling with or without vicar bishops).

On Synods all votes are equeal.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 02:56:02 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 02:59:16 PM »

So from the start:
- there is no universal jurisdiction within the Church
- the greatest legislature within the each autocephalous Church is a local council which is made from all Bishops and priest, monk and lay delegates from all dioceses (usually it choose the Church's primate)
- legislature of the lower rank is the bishopric council which consists from all ruling or ruling and vicar bishops (is some Churches they choose primates)
- some bigger Churches have bishopric synods which are made from limited number of bishops of the main sees that rules the autocephalus Church in daily issues
- but in every diocese the main power is in the hands of the diocesan bishop

Some Churches like Serbian Church have other traditions of choosing it's primates (they draw from the 3 most popular candidates).

Each autocephalous Church has own internal regulations of governing itself.

Universal Church decisions are made by the delegates from all the autocephalous Churches or by the Ecumenical COuncil (all ruling with or without vicar bishops).

On Synods all votes are equeal.

Thank you.

that seems to be a much fairer system than the RCC way of doing things.
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 03:03:18 PM »

Does Orthodoxy have Cardinals, or the Equivalent?
Yes and no.

The Cardinals were just the suffragan/coadjutor bishops of the bishop of Rome, having sees in the suburbs of the capital ("suburbicarian sees" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14324a.htm) and the priest and deacons attached to Rome (and who were supposed to be the only elligible candidates for bishop of Rome, according to the canons of its Council of 769). That is why each cardinal gets attached to a titular church.  Originally, that would be their church, as they would be serving in Rome.  A vestige of this is that the patriarchs of the sui juris churches are ex officio cardinals ever since their supreme pontiff Paul VI said so, but they have no titular church (their Orthodox predecessors had metochia, which became the major basilicas after the schism).

The larger Orthodox patriarchates have what are variously called "the Holy and Sacred Synod," "Resident Synod," "Holy Synod" etc. which consists of anywhere between 12 to a couple dozen bishops who met to make administrative decisions etc. to keep the Church as a whole running, something like a cross between the Roman curia, the college of cardinals, and episcopal conferences (as most if not all of the bishops have actual dioceses or autonomous Churches).  The restriction is only for ease of coordinating a couple dozen versus, for instance in the PoM, hundreds of bishops: any major decision requires a full synod, which are usually convened every couple years (the canons require some synod being convened twice a year, and the Holy Synod fulfills this requirement). The smaller Orthodox Churches, having only about a dozen bishops, just have their full synod of bishops. Usually membership on the Holy Synod includes those who are permanent members ex officio of their see, including of course the primate, and also rotating members who serve only for a period of time.

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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 03:19:57 PM »

So from the start:
- there is no universal jurisdiction within the Church
- the greatest legislature within the each autocephalous Church is a local council which is made from all Bishops and priest, monk and lay delegates from all dioceses (usually it choose the Church's primate)
- legislature of the lower rank is the bishopric council which consists from all ruling or ruling and vicar bishops (is some Churches they choose primates)
- some bigger Churches have bishopric synods which are made from limited number of bishops of the main sees that rules the autocephalus Church in daily issues
- but in every diocese the main power is in the hands of the diocesan bishop

Some Churches like Serbian Church have other traditions of choosing it's primates (they draw from the 3 most popular candidates).

Each autocephalous Church has own internal regulations of governing itself.

Universal Church decisions are made by the delegates from all the autocephalous Churches or by the Ecumenical COuncil (all ruling with or without vicar bishops).

On Synods all votes are equeal.

Thank you.

that seems to be a much fairer system than the RCC way of doing things.
Since you are in Greece, it is the oddity that it has something like a college of cardinals, but because of that nothing like a pope. 

The Church of Greece is governed day to day by the Standing Holy Synod
http://www.ecclesia.gr/english/holysynod/diarkis.htm
which has a dozen members who rotate among the 130+bishops that Greece has (the CoG has kept the good ol' Apostolic practice of small dioceses).  The only member who never changes is the Archbishop of Athens, who, however, only has authority as the chairman of the Standing Synod. His authority outside his archdiocese and outside the Standing Synod is severely limited.  In many ways, it is like the Camerlengo and the College of Cardinals sede vacante.
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 04:50:28 AM »

Thank you ialmisry,

Very interesting.

Can I ask? if nobody is above anybody else, and all are equal and they have to make a decision and they can not agree on a decision. what happens?  how do they proceed?

Thanks

JR

Quote
Since you are in Greece, it is the oddity that it has something like a college of cardinals, but because of that nothing like a pope. 

The Church of Greece is governed day to day by the Standing Holy Synod
http://www.ecclesia.gr/english/holysynod/diarkis.htm
which has a dozen members who rotate among the 130+bishops that Greece has (the CoG has kept the good ol' Apostolic practice of small dioceses).  The only member who never changes is the Archbishop of Athens, who, however, only has authority as the chairman of the Standing Synod. His authority outside his archdiocese and outside the Standing Synod is severely limited.  In many ways, it is like the Camerlengo and the College of Cardinals sede vacante.

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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 05:17:27 AM »

The Church's Primate has the casting vote when they are equally divided.
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2011, 09:45:32 AM »

Thank you ialmisry,

Very interesting.

Can I ask? if nobody is above anybody else, and all are equal and they have to make a decision and they can not agree on a decision. what happens?  how do they proceed?

Thanks

JR

Quote
Since you are in Greece, it is the oddity that it has something like a college of cardinals, but because of that nothing like a pope. 

The Church of Greece is governed day to day by the Standing Holy Synod
http://www.ecclesia.gr/english/holysynod/diarkis.htm
which has a dozen members who rotate among the 130+bishops that Greece has (the CoG has kept the good ol' Apostolic practice of small dioceses).  The only member who never changes is the Archbishop of Athens, who, however, only has authority as the chairman of the Standing Synod. His authority outside his archdiocese and outside the Standing Synod is severely limited.  In many ways, it is like the Camerlengo and the College of Cardinals sede vacante.



The funny thing is that somehow we proceed, even though we rarely agree!
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 11:13:45 AM »

Thank you ialmisry,

Very interesting.

Can I ask? if nobody is above anybody else, and all are equal and they have to make a decision and they can not agree on a decision. what happens?  how do they proceed?

Thanks

JR

Quote
Since you are in Greece, it is the oddity that it has something like a college of cardinals, but because of that nothing like a pope.  

The Church of Greece is governed day to day by the Standing Holy Synod
http://www.ecclesia.gr/english/holysynod/diarkis.htm
which has a dozen members who rotate among the 130+bishops that Greece has (the CoG has kept the good ol' Apostolic practice of small dioceses).  The only member who never changes is the Archbishop of Athens, who, however, only has authority as the chairman of the Standing Synod. His authority outside his archdiocese and outside the Standing Synod is severely limited.  In many ways, it is like the Camerlengo and the College of Cardinals sede vacante.



The funny thing is that somehow we proceed, even though we rarely agree!
Yes, we have to speak largely in theory, as rarerly if ever does the system fall into paralysis.  The primate has a tie breaking vote, but the system is so consensus driven that a lot of back and forth goes on that it rarely comes to that. Bishops are always impowered to do as they see best in their diocese, if it becomes a problem they can be called to account, or let his policy thrive or die off the vine. They can always call the full Synod of Bishops, but that's rare and even then nearly unanimous.  The CoG went for almost a century without doing that, and when it did (to depose its primate Abp. Meletios) there was no question of a close vote: the whole Synod was called just to remove all question about the action.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 11:14:57 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 01:37:46 PM »

Waaaayyy OT, but when I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was "Cardinals?" They can't be Orthodox!

I was thinking of the St. Louis Cardinals. I'm a Cubs fan. The Cardinals are our arch-rivals.

'Nuff said. Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 02:17:18 PM »

Waaaayyy OT, but when I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was "Cardinals?" They can't be Orthodox!

I was thinking of the St. Louis Cardinals. I'm a Cubs fan. The Cardinals are our arch-rivals.

'Nuff said. Cheesy

LOL
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 02:29:21 PM »

Waaaayyy OT, but when I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was "Cardinals?" They can't be Orthodox!

I was thinking of the St. Louis Cardinals. I'm a Cubs fan. The Cardinals are our arch-rivals.

'Nuff said. Cheesy
Somebody was talking about Reagan being a radio announcer for the Cubs, when someone said they thought so, but it could be the Cardinals because St. Louis is across the river.  Only someone not from IL (Reagan was an IL boy) could say such a thing.
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2011, 02:27:16 AM »

 A vestige of this is that the patriarchs of the sui juris churches are ex officio cardinals ever since their supreme pontiff Paul VI said so,

Not so, my brother. There are some Patriarchs who are cardinals, but it is not ex-officio and some have refused the cardinalate as: not representing an Eastern tradition; being incompatible with the idea that the Pope heads the Latin Church and should be elected by its hierarchs; and effectively being a demotion for a patriarch.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2011, 05:05:27 AM »

Proofs?
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 05:07:05 AM »

Proofs?

Of which point, Michal?  That some are, some aren't? Or that some have refused?
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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 03:38:45 PM »

The ones that refused.
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2011, 03:05:57 AM »

All reported refusals have been by the Melkite Patriarchs.

Notably, HB Maximos IV (Saigh), of blessed memory, the most outspoken of the Eastern hierarchs at Vatican II, is reported to have refused 3 times before reluctantly accepting it. (There are no lists to be had or announcements made as to those who refuse the cardinalate.)

Salvador Mirandas, whose website catalogues the history of the College of Cardinals, and is considered the premier scholar on the topic of the College, says of him:

Quote
Created cardinal patriarch in the consistory of February 22, 1965; received the red biretta, February 25, 1965. He was promoted (sic) to the cardinalate very much against his wish; three times previously he had refused a red hat on the grounds that "for a Patriarch to accept a cardinalate is treason"; Patriarchal Vicar for the See of Alexandria, Cairo and the Sudan Elias Zoghby opposed the acceptance of a Roman cardinalate by the Melkite patriarch, stating that the leader of an Eastern Catholic church should not hold a subordinate Latin-rite office; and in protest, the vicar resigned his position.

Reportedly, he accepted the red hat on the condition that his predecessors would not be compelled to do so.

His successor, HB Maximos V (Hakim), also of blessed memory, was never named cardinal, although he was reportedly offered the red hat. Neither has HB Gregorios III (Laham), the incumbent Patriarch, been so named, despite the fact that the Melkite Church is the sole Church of the Byzantine Rite to have patriarchal status and that the Melkite Patriarch, precedentially, ranks second only to the Coptic Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria. Again, HB Gregorios has reportedly had the offer made to him.

In his address on Ecclesiology and Ecumenism to the 2010 Synod of Bishops for the Middle East, HB Gregorios said on this subject:

Quote
we want to have a role in the decisions taken about our faithful. We want to be closer to the Pope, without however becoming part of the College of Cardinals. The title of Patriarch is different, from the perspectives of protocol, ecclesiology, pastorate and history, from that of Cardinal. The Patriarch is neither superior nor inferior to the Cardinal: there is a difference of category. The title of Cardinal, which for very special reasons, was conferred on my predecessor Patriarch Maximos IV and more recently on certain of my colleagues, Patriarchs and Major Archbishops here present, confronts us with an ecclesiological problem. So we prefer to remain satisfied with the great inheritance comprised in the title of Patriarch.

Many years,

Neil
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