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Author Topic: Pronounciation of Church Slavonic - Ukrainian or Carpatho-Rusyn  (Read 2251 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 30, 2011, 04:46:24 AM »

Brothers and Sisters,

For some time, I have been trying to find a prononouciation guide for Church Slavonic, but I only found some the Russian and the Serbian pronounciation.

So I am asking you all for help: Could anyone provide me with a guide or list, how to pronounce Church Slavonic in a Ukrainian or Carpatho-Rusyn way?
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 08:13:47 AM »

Hello,
   I just found this site over the weekend. It has audio you can listen to you help learn proper pronunciation:

http://www.orthodoxepubsoc.org/


 Smiley  Smiley  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 09:36:08 AM »

Thanks for the link, but this is Russian pronounciation once more.
I am looking for a Ukrainian or Carpatho-Rsyn pronounciation.
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 09:41:18 AM »

Sorry!   I listened to the Holy God  audio from the site and it sounded just like what I learned in the Byzantine Catholic church, which is Carpatho-Russian.  Hopefully you will find a good resource, I would like to learn about it as well. 
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 09:49:06 AM »

In the early 1970's Father Stefan Papp, a Greek Catholic priest from Slovakia, recorded the entirety of Boksaj's Prostopinije/Plain Chant for cantor training. While the records are no longer available, the Metropolitan Cantor's Institute of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Pittsburgh has preserved a complete set of Father Papp's recordings online at http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/RecordedMusic.html. I hope this helps you.
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 09:58:55 AM »

podkarpatska,

Wonderful! How can I ever thank you for this?



Adela,

To explain better, I will give an example: I am looking for "Hospodi pomilui" instead of "Gospodi pamilui".
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 10:13:10 AM »

Yes, thanks Podkarpatska!

Yeah, I see what you mean.... One of my Russian co-workers had a close-friend die and when I said "Vicnaja Pomjat", he corrected my pronunciation to the Russian way.  Smiley

This isn't liturgical, but on Youtube there are some Slovak/Ruthenian folk songs posted, such as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwGuqFh_tK8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 04:29:05 PM »

Yat would probably sound like "i", most occurences  of "g", will sound like "h", and there will be NO reduction (Unstressed O will be pronounced as O, not A). It would be "Tebi, Hospodi", not "Tobi" as in standard Ukrainian.
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 05:12:38 PM »

podkarpatska,

Wonderful! How can I ever thank you for this?



Adela,

To explain better, I will give an example: I am looking for "Hospodi pomilui" instead of "Gospodi pamilui".

May I ask you why you are not investigating the pronunciation that is the closest to the original, that is Church Slavonic as pronounced in the Bulgarian Church?
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 03:35:32 AM »

May I ask you why you are not investigating the pronunciation that is the closest to the original, that is Church Slavonic as pronounced in the Bulgarian Church?
I know what it sounds like, I have been to Bulgaria in March and I know a local priest of the Bulgarian Church here in Germany.

But my interest is not knowing the oldest pronounciation. Your question sounds to me like "Ursprungsdenken", a concept developed in 19th century German Protestant theology. That basically means that some kind of original must be reconstructed through scientific means, because it would be somewhat "better" than what currently exists.
In Orthodoxy, on the other hand, faith is a living tradition, and various customs can have their own value.

My point is: Under Russian rule, the Russian pronounciation of Church Slavonic has been introduced to Ukraine, causing a loss of the Ukrainian pronounciation. On the other hand, many who would usually have supported a Ukrainian pronounciation of Church Slavonic (such as Ukrainian Greek Catholics, UOC-KP, etc.), switched to modern Ukrainian.

Now I have heard from a priest in the UOC-MP that Carpatho-Rusyns have preserved the usage of Church Slavonic in a local pronounciation, which is very close to the one that used to exist in Kyiv. And I was very interested in hearing that, so I asked.
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 01:52:00 PM »

Also the Orthodox Church in Bukovyna preserved the Ukrainian pronounciation since it was not under Russia during the oppressive tsarist times.
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 05:07:04 PM »

Also the Orthodox Church in Bukovyna preserved the Ukrainian pronounciation since it was not under Russia during the oppressive tsarist times.
That is an interesting point, but what about Romanian influences, or - in the Ukrainian part of Bucovina - Russian influences in Soviet times?

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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 05:23:32 PM »

My point is: Under Russian rule, the Russian pronounciation of Church Slavonic has been introduced to Ukraine, causing a loss of the Ukrainian pronounciation. On the other hand, many who would usually have supported a Ukrainian pronounciation of Church Slavonic (such as Ukrainian Greek Catholics, UOC-KP, etc.), switched to modern Ukrainian.

But many parishes of the canonical UOC-MP are also using modern Ukrainian now. I believe in a few decades, unless the Ukrainian state somehow disappears from the face of the earth, all Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in Ukraine will serve exclusively in the vernacular (i.e. modern Ukrainian), just like the Apostolic Canons require. Why is it so important to investigate the intricacies of the "Ukrainian pronounciation of the Old Church Slavonic?" To me, it sounds very "academic," having too little impact on real life. It's like studying the differences in pronounciation in Old English between its Cornwall and its Northumbria versions. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 06:40:09 PM »

My point is: Under Russian rule, the Russian pronounciation of Church Slavonic has been introduced to Ukraine, causing a loss of the Ukrainian pronounciation.
Actually, the oposite happened.  Which is why in the Russian rencension of CS of today, you spiratize the  Γ, there is no devoicing of consonants and no slurring of vowels, etc. The only difference is that the Ukrainian recension merged ѣ with i, whereas Russian merged it with e. Also CS doesn't make B into a semivowel on the offglide of a syllable.  There are some orthographical diffences, which Archbp. Alypy goes into (p. 417)
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 06:43:19 PM »

ialmisry,

I wonder if you have ever heard the whole think in practice. Believe me, it is full of Gs, palatalization, even akanye is extremely frequent...
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 06:54:10 PM »

This might be very helpful. http://puluka.com/home/LiturgicalChant/ChurchSlavonic.html

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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 07:04:13 PM »

ialmisry,

I wonder if you have ever heard the whole think in practice. Believe me, it is full of Gs, palatalization, even akanye is extremely frequent...
I'm aware of that. But you didn't ask how many Russians mispronounce CS, but on the Ukrainian/Kiev recension.

Btw, on another note, you are aware of the Romanian recension, which died out sometime in the 1700s, no?
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 08:32:25 PM »

My point is: Under Russian rule, the Russian pronounciation of Church Slavonic has been introduced to Ukraine, causing a loss of the Ukrainian pronounciation. On the other hand, many who would usually have supported a Ukrainian pronounciation of Church Slavonic (such as Ukrainian Greek Catholics, UOC-KP, etc.), switched to modern Ukrainian.

But many parishes of the canonical UOC-MP are also using modern Ukrainian now. I believe in a few decades, unless the Ukrainian state somehow disappears from the face of the earth, all Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in Ukraine will serve exclusively in the vernacular (i.e. modern Ukrainian), just like the Apostolic Canons require. Why is it so important to investigate the intricacies of the "Ukrainian pronounciation of the Old Church Slavonic?" To me, it sounds very "academic," having too little impact on real life. It's like studying the differences in pronounciation in Old English between its Cornwall and its Northumbria versions. Smiley


Perhaps simply because it interests him?  I know I'm quite interested in the difference in pronunciation between Middle English in its Northern and Southern recensions.

BTW, Old English would not have existed in Cornwall, as during the time of that recensions existence, Cornwall was still very much a Celtic speaking area.  The only English speakers in that area would have been Anglo-Saxons from Wessex.
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 07:38:07 AM »

My point is: Under Russian rule, the Russian pronounciation of Church Slavonic has been introduced to Ukraine, causing a loss of the Ukrainian pronounciation. On the other hand, many who would usually have supported a Ukrainian pronounciation of Church Slavonic (such as Ukrainian Greek Catholics, UOC-KP, etc.), switched to modern Ukrainian.

But many parishes of the canonical UOC-MP are also using modern Ukrainian now. I believe in a few decades, unless the Ukrainian state somehow disappears from the face of the earth, all Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in Ukraine will serve exclusively in the vernacular (i.e. modern Ukrainian), just like the Apostolic Canons require. Why is it so important to investigate the intricacies of the "Ukrainian pronounciation of the Old Church Slavonic?" To me, it sounds very "academic," having too little impact on real life. It's like studying the differences in pronounciation in Old English between its Cornwall and its Northumbria versions. Smiley

[/quote]

Perhaps simply because it interests him?  I know I'm quite interested in the difference in pronunciation between Middle English in its Northern and Southern recensions.
[/quote]

I understand, and I am not against academic interests. But we are talking about the language of liturgy, and in Ukraine that is not an academic issue... I won't go any further because this forum does not allow political discussions. Yet, I'll just mention briefly that everything specifically Ukrainian is under harsh attack in the spiritual life of those Ukrainians who confess the Orthodox faith and belong to the canonical UOC-MP. According to the plan developed by certain forces, Ukraine should remain only as a territory, but it must be rid of its own history, of the Ukrainian language, traditions. Just to think about it, the official journal of the UOC-MP is called "Православіє в Україні" (Orthodoxy in Ukraine), not "Українськe Православіє" (Ukrainian Orthodoxy). Nothing "Ukrainian" is supposed to exist. And this dead Old Church Slavonic language is used as a tool in the elimination of everything specifically Ukrainian in the Divine Liturgy and other Orthodox services. Some bishops and their subordinates-priests in the UOC-MP still dare to serve in Ukrainian, but they often have an extremely hard time because, (a) various blogs, Internet fora, pamphlets, etc. continuously brand them as "nationalists" or "Banderites," and (b) there still exist these "yayalogial" prejudices among their flock, that the Ukrainian language is just not fit to be used in the Church, and that the Old Church Slavonic in and by itself possesses a certain "magic" (there is this notion about "намолeнный язык" - a special magical, almost occult, language that should not be used in people's trivial, profane life, and, hence, should not be rationally known and understood). Because of these things, the Old Church Slavonic became my "pet peeve."

BTW, Old English would not have existed in Cornwall, as during the time of that recensions existence, Cornwall was still very much a Celtic speaking area.  The only English speakers in that area would have been Anglo-Saxons from Wessex.

Thank you for the clarification. Right. Well, then between Wessex and Sussex, or something.
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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 09:54:02 AM »

^ I understand where Herohij is coming from, but within Russia herself one will find similar justifications for retaining the CS, as opposed to using the vernacular. We had a thread a few months back about a supposed 'reform' of CS. The usual arguments against the vernacular were raised by many, including the argument that the vernacular is not 'fit' for use in liturgical services and is 'spiritually' on a higher plane. One can not deny that there is an anti-Ukrainian bias within the MP, but there is an equally strong anti-vernacular bias within the Orthodox Church of Russia as well.
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2011, 10:14:12 AM »

Also the Orthodox Church in Bukovyna preserved the Ukrainian pronounciation since it was not under Russia during the oppressive tsarist times.
That is an interesting point, but what about Romanian influences, or - in the Ukrainian part of Bucovina - Russian influences in Soviet times?



The Romanians used the Ukrainian pronouncian of Church Slavonic until the liturgy was translated into Romania when Wallachai & Moldavia united to form what became modern Romania.
the Romanian language had no influence on the pronounciation of Church Slavonic for the Ukrainians living in Bukovyna.  It is the same today.
By the way under Austrian times, men who studied in the seminaries had to be fluent in both languages so they could give a sermon in Ukrainian or Romanian and both languages were taught in the seminaries in addition to Church Slavonic.
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2011, 10:29:14 AM »

Just to think about it, the official journal of the UOC-MP is called "Православіє в Україні" (Orthodoxy in Ukraine), not "Українськe Православіє" (Ukrainian Orthodoxy). Nothing "Ukrainian" is supposed to exist.

If it were as you say, the name of the journal would be "Православіє на Україні" "Orthodoxy in Ukraine" versus "Orthodoxy in the Ukraine." Is the journal in Ukrainian, like its title?

And this dead Old Church Slavonic language
Old Church Slavonic has been dead for some time, but that's not what is used in Church.  Church Slavonic is not quite so dead it seems:they still compose (e.g. new tropars of the recently canonized) in it.

is used as a tool in the elimination of everything specifically Ukrainian in the Divine Liturgy and other Orthodox services.

So that is why they use it in Chicago, to eliminate everything Ukrainian here? Ditto Moscow?

Some bishops and their subordinates-priests in the UOC-MP still dare to serve in Ukrainian, but they often have an extremely hard time because, (a) various blogs, Internet fora, pamphlets, etc. continuously brand them as "nationalists" or "Banderites," and (b) there still exist these "yayalogial" prejudices among their flock, that the Ukrainian language is just not fit to be used in the Church, and that the Old Church Slavonic in and by itself possesses a certain "magic" (there is this notion about "намолeнный язык" - a special magical, almost occult, language that should not be used in people's trivial, profane life, and, hence, should not be rationally known and understood). Because of these things, the Old Church Slavonic became my "pet peeve."
my dictionary says намолeнный "prayerful, worshipful, sacred," nothing about magic/occult.  Do they think Russian is fit to be used in Church?

BTW, Old English would not have existed in Cornwall, as during the time of that recensions existence, Cornwall was still very much a Celtic speaking area.  The only English speakers in that area would have been Anglo-Saxons from Wessex.
Thank you for the clarification. Right. Well, then between Wessex and Sussex, or something.
Old English/Anglo-Saxon wasn't used in the DL.  The analogy you are looking for is the Elizabethan English that is used in services.
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 10:55:55 AM »

By the way under Austrian times, men who studied in the seminaries had to be fluent in both languages so they could give a sermon in Ukrainian or Romanian and both languages were taught in the seminaries in addition to Church Slavonic.
I am not sure which seminary you are talking about, I am only aware of the one in Czernowitz/Chernivtsi, where the German language was used, as a compromise between Ukrainian and Romanian.
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 11:14:45 AM »

Just to think about it, the official journal of the UOC-MP is called "Православіє в Україні" (Orthodoxy in Ukraine), not "Українськe Православіє" (Ukrainian Orthodoxy). Nothing "Ukrainian" is supposed to exist.

If it were as you say, the name of the journal would be "Православіє на Україні" "Orthodoxy in Ukraine" versus "Orthodoxy in the Ukraine." Is the journal in Ukrainian, like its title?

It is generally accepted now that we say "в Україні" (or, in Russian, "в Украинe"); it's just a grammatic norm. As for the journal, it is formally bilingual, but actually perhaps about 90% of the materials are in Russian. The title on the front page is in two languages.

And this dead Old Church Slavonic language
Old Church Slavonic has been dead for some time, but that's not what is used in Church.  Church Slavonic is not quite so dead it seems:they still compose (e.g. new tropars of the recently canonized) in it.

is used as a tool in the elimination of everything specifically Ukrainian in the Divine Liturgy and other Orthodox services.

So that is why they use it in Chicago, to eliminate everything Ukrainian here? Ditto Moscow?
[/quote]

Well, maybe it is used in some Chicago churches, but I know that many other Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in the USA, Canada, Australia and Western Europe use modern Ukrainian.

Some bishops and their subordinates-priests in the UOC-MP still dare to serve in Ukrainian, but they often have an extremely hard time because, (a) various blogs, Internet fora, pamphlets, etc. continuously brand them as "nationalists" or "Banderites," and (b) there still exist these "yayalogial" prejudices among their flock, that the Ukrainian language is just not fit to be used in the Church, and that the Old Church Slavonic in and by itself possesses a certain "magic" (there is this notion about "намолeнный язык" - a special magical, almost occult, language that should not be used in people's trivial, profane life, and, hence, should not be rationally known and understood). Because of these things, the Old Church Slavonic became my "pet peeve."
my dictionary says намолeнный "prayerful, worshipful, sacred," nothing about magic/occult.  Do they think Russian is fit to be used in Church?
[/quote]

AFAIK, most Russian Orthodox are for the status qou, i.e. for the OCS. Some are against. I have a number of Facebook friends from Russia (two laymen and one monk in Ivanovo, northeast of Moscow) who are against.
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2011, 12:29:53 PM »

By the way under Austrian times, men who studied in the seminaries had to be fluent in both languages so they could give a sermon in Ukrainian or Romanian and both languages were taught in the seminaries in addition to Church Slavonic.
I am not sure which seminary you are talking about, I am only aware of the one in Czernowitz/Chernivtsi, where the German language was used, as a compromise between Ukrainian and Romanian.

My family is from this area so I have a keen interest in its history.  I have visited family on sides of the border.
Also a have graduate studies in East European history.  You are in that the Austrians when they established the University of Chernivsti as it is now called and legislated a Faculty of Theology and the language of instruction as in the whole univerisy was Austrian/ German.  This faculty of theology would be evquivilant to a Theological Academy in the Russian Empire not the regular seminary which students started at age 12.  I have seen the textbooks from that era used at the faculty of Thelogy and they were German tranlations of Russian and Serbian authors.  Stuents who entered the faculty of theology were graduates of the regular seminaries.
I have forgotten how many seminaries Bukovyna had in Austrians times: I think it was 3. 
The church newsparers from Bukovyna have been microfilmed and are avaiable to researchers through inter-library loan.  Not sure if they are on the inteer-net yet but I don't think so.
I have read "Provoslavna Bukovyna" which is in Ukrainian and in a pre-WW! alphabet.  Very interesting: all about the synod meetings.  Bukovyna had  very well organized laity brotherhoods.  Also some of the politicians in the diet were also involved in church affairs.
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2011, 01:26:19 PM »

I have seen the textbooks from that era used at the faculty of Thelogy and they were German tranlations of Russian and Serbian authors. 
Where can they be seen?
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2011, 01:55:29 PM »

I have seen the textbooks from that era used at the faculty of Thelogy and they were German tranlations of Russian and Serbian authors. 
Where can they be seen?

The modern University of Chernivsti, since the fall of communism, has opened up a Faculty of Theology.  It may be called "Faculty of Philosophy and Theology".  The current metropolitan, Metropolitan Onufry has given the venture his personal moral support.  Like the old Faculty of Theology, it is academic, not a seminary.
Check their library.  Also I met an old priest who still had some of his grandfather's books from the Austrian era.  Probably, the University of Vienna has copies too.  The Peter Jacyk Collection in Toronto, (University of Toronto) does not have the textbooks, but has the newspapers on microfiche from the Austrian era.
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 03:05:35 PM »

Thanks for the information. Do they still have the original books there in Chernivtsi?
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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2011, 02:45:52 PM »

Thanks for the information. Do they still have the original books there in Chernivtsi?
You can e-mail the library or the Faculty of Theology & find out.  The Austrians were very good at keeping archives & records, so I wouldn't be surprised if you found copies in Vienna libraries.
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2011, 08:14:09 AM »

Thanks for the information. Do they still have the original books there in Chernivtsi?
You can e-mail the library or the Faculty of Theology & find out.  The Austrians were very good at keeping archives & records, so I wouldn't be surprised if you found copies in Vienna libraries.

Thanks!

I'll be in Chernivtsi tomorrow and have a look there. Deacon Nikita from the MP's diocese of Chernivtsi has kindly offered to help me.
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« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2011, 12:41:02 PM »

Ukrainian
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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2011, 01:20:16 PM »

The two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in my area still use a good bit of Slavonic, yes, I know, Ukrainian Orthodox Churches don't use Slavonic anymore, but these two do.  The pronounciation is Ukrainian style, that's how I know it.  I've been to vespers at the ROCOR church outside of Pittsburgh.  The priest used Russian Slavonic and the choir used Ukrainian Slavonic.  As for Carpatho-Russian Slavonic, I don't know, it's not really pronounced any different than Ukrainian pronounced Slavonic.  Only the priests that aren't local or cradles pronounce slavonic russian style,  and they are Russian priests and or russian congregations or taught by the OCA, and after a few months the priest if he uses slavonic ends up using the Ukrainian pronounciation.    By Russian I mean from Russia.  Most people are 2nd/3rd generation Ukrainian that frequent the Orthodox Churches in Pennsylvania and therefore only really use Ukrainian pronounciation.. I know of one instance where they pronounce Slavonic with the Lemko dialect that must have been used 80 years ago, frozen in time and pronounced differently.  
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 01:21:51 PM by username! » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2011, 01:26:20 PM »

Want to hear Ukrainian Slavonic? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z-gkK4lUiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLHztGJ15jo&feature=channel_video_title
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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2011, 01:32:32 PM »

And you have to remember where I am from the Greek Catholics (and Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics) and most of the Slavic Orthodox Churches only stopped using ALL Slavonic within the last 15 years, maybe 10 years in reality or less.. some churches still use a good deal of Slavonic.  And many churches sing congregationally, prostopinije or Galician.. and when Slavonic is sung the roof gets raised and everyone sings loud.  Funny, everyone was quick to flush Slavonic but gets teary eyed when they use it now.  I'm glad my parish uses it, and not like sing one verse in Slavonic, repeat it in english style, but when Slavonic is used it is sang in the whole.  Make sense?   For some reason some parishes think you have to sing in English what you just sang in Slavonic and that is just annoying.
I totally agree with the epistle and Gospel being read in the vernacular.  The Tropars, prokeimenon, kondak in english, but the fixed parts of the liturgies are perfectly fine in Slavonic.  People know them by heart in both languages.  In other words we might not fully understand Slavonic as a language but when fixable parts are sang in it people know what it means.
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2011, 02:43:40 PM »

It is my understanding that Russian is rapidly overtaking Ukrainian as the dominant language of the youth in the Ukraine.
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2011, 04:16:39 PM »

It is my understanding that Russian is rapidly overtaking Ukrainian as the dominant language of the youth in the Ukraine.
Not true. That was the case in Soviet times, but since independence, Ukrainian is getting stronger again. (I just came back from Ukraine on Saturday).

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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2011, 04:23:10 PM »

Does Ukraine use Slavonic or Ukrainian in services?
Is this a regional thing, or is it uniform for all of Ukraine?
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2011, 04:38:32 PM »

The UOC uses Church Slavonic, Ukrainian only in a few places. Jurisdictions of Patriarch Philaret and Metropolitan Methodius use Ukrainian.
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