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Author Topic: High Church Anglican seeking advise.  (Read 3591 times) Average Rating: 0
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JohnofDorset
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« on: August 30, 2011, 03:00:14 AM »

This topic is part a greeting and part a series of questions.

I'm an English Anglican, currently residing in Sydney Australia. My Anglicanism is very much High Church, what is sometimes called Anglo-Catholic; although I admire the Orthodox and Celtic Churches as much as, or more even, than the Roman Churches and I'm very much an admirer of the High Church Anglican tradition and not simply one of the Anglo-Catholics which just copies the modern Roman Church.

I have been coming to a growing understanding of my faith and of the history and 'thought'(I mean this in the broadest possible way.) of Christianity. I have been trying to, and continue to try to, absorb from the various different branches of the Church; Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Celtic, Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran. I have certainly been coming to the conclusion that the Orthodox Church is the purest and most balanced form of Christianity. On the other hand it seems to me that there is a lot more in common between the Roman and Orthodox, and perhaps even High Church Anglican, Churches than divides them. In the various dissensions between Rome and the East it seems to me Rome is more wrong than right, but I cannot quite see Rome's errors(at least pre-Vatican II.) make it heterodox and heretical.

But that isn't my main point. I'm not completely certain yet, but I'm growing closer and closer to wishing to convert to Orthodoxy, however I'm a traditional Englishmen with a  certain soft-spot for the particular ambiance and history of the Church in England and Britain, in its traditional, 'catholic' guises, from the earliest times onwards.

So my main points are what is the opinion here of the British Orthodox Church?

And is it possible to integrate certain sensibilities of and admiration for British and Western Church figures(I mean only broadly orthodox figures like George Herbert), in their proper places, with membership of this Church?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 03:01:39 AM by JohnofDorset » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 03:48:33 AM »

Welcome!

I can't speak on behalf of the BOC, the perfect person would be Fr. Peter Farrington whom I hope sees this thread and contributes. If he doesn't contribute in a few days I'll send him a private message.

In regards to other figures in regards to admiration, I don't see the problem as long as you know their proper places. For example I am quite an admirer of Alvin Plantinga, whom is a Molinist which does come into conflict with tenets of the Orthodox faith (and certain philosophical objections), but while I admire his brilliance I must also place a limitation on how influential his theology is when compared to Orthodoxy. Same thing with RC saints like Fracis of Assisi and Thomas Aquinas, whom I do love but again must be viewed in a certain context if one is to be Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 04:26:44 AM »

Welcome to the walk to God, the most important thing a religion should provide. May God help you in this trip and protect you since the sick angels would try to derail yourself . Eastern orthodox Church is the Church of the people in Heaven the Church established by Jesus where Jesus is high priest. Comming to Eastern orthodox Church is granted by God and is a result of good things done by you or by your family or you may have been praying for knowing the truth and your prayer was answered.. May God bless you and everybody.

If God would not want to, you won't have the understanding thjat EOC is the true Church and you will go to other denominations that would provide more or less truth however less than in EOC.
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 04:49:53 AM »

So my main points are what is the opinion here of the British Orthodox Church?

The British Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox autonomous Church so opinion on them will be based whether the poster is EO or OO.
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 04:59:19 AM »

The Russian Orthodox Church has two priests who are Western Rite priests using a form of the BCP but they are active only in Hobart and Launceston Tasmania.  I imagine that is not much use to you.
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 05:01:05 AM »

The British Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox autonomous Church so opinion on them will be based whether the poster is EO or OO.

Is it really an autonomous church? I thought it was just a regular diocese within the Coptic church.
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 05:02:37 AM »

There is a 'normal' Coptic Diocese in the GB.
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 05:11:24 AM »

There is a 'normal' Coptic Diocese in the GB.

This wouldn't be the first time when an Orthodox church has several dioceses within the same geographical area.
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 05:17:34 AM »

The British Orthodox Church is a Metropolitan diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. There are 3 other Coptic bishops in the UK serving mostly Egyptian immigrants. They consititute two diocesan bishops and one general bishop with responsibility for the patriarchal congregations.

The British Orthodox Church has a British Metropolitan and our mission is to especially reach British people and non-Egyptians in the UK. The BOC is not autonomous but has a reasonable degree of flexibility in engaging in our mission.

I am happy to answer any questions the OP might have.

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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 05:57:07 AM »

This topic is part a greeting and part a series of questions.

I'm an English Anglican, currently residing in Sydney Australia. My Anglicanism is very much High Church, what is sometimes called Anglo-Catholic; although I admire the Orthodox and Celtic Churches as much as, or more even, than the Roman Churches and I'm very much an admirer of the High Church Anglican tradition and not simply one of the Anglo-Catholics which just copies the modern Roman Church.

I have been coming to a growing understanding of my faith and of the history and 'thought'(I mean this in the broadest possible way.) of Christianity. I have been trying to, and continue to try to, absorb from the various different branches of the Church; Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Celtic, Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran. I have certainly been coming to the conclusion that the Orthodox Church is the purest and most balanced form of Christianity. On the other hand it seems to me that there is a lot more in common between the Roman and Orthodox, and perhaps even High Church Anglican, Churches than divides them. In the various dissensions between Rome and the East it seems to me Rome is more wrong than right, but I cannot quite see Rome's errors(at least pre-Vatican II.) make it heterodox and heretical.

But that isn't my main point. I'm not completely certain yet, but I'm growing closer and closer to wishing to convert to Orthodoxy, however I'm a traditional Englishmen with a  certain soft-spot for the particular ambiance and history of the Church in England and Britain, in its traditional, 'catholic' guises, from the earliest times onwards.

So my main points are what is the opinion here of the British Orthodox Church?

And is it possible to integrate certain sensibilities of and admiration for British and Western Church figures(I mean only broadly orthodox figures like George Herbert), in their proper places, with membership of this Church?

Are there any High Church Anglican parishes/services left in Sydney?

The several Anglican services i've been to, had big screen singing, a band etc. Certainly not High Anglican.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 06:38:18 AM »

Thank you all for your replies.

Father Peter my basic question is whether the British Orthodox Church shares something of that 'ambiance' of the Church in England and Britain from the earliest times onwards, at least in its more traditional, 'catholic' guises, to which I have a soft spot as a traditional Englishman. I would very much prefer to choose an Orthodox denomination, if I make the leap or God decides for me to make the leap, that had something of this 'ambiance' or sensibility.

I'm also wondering if it would be okay, as a member of the British Orthodox Church, to admire and even spiritually draw from certain British, Celtic and Western spiritual sources(I mean broadly orthodox ones of course.), even those after the 1054 and 1533 such as the Saint Thomas Aquinas or George Herbert, as long as I keep them in their proper place?  Indeed as I understand your church is an Oriental one I suppose I could repeat this question for Eastern Orthodox figures as well.

Byron; Sydney is almost exclusively low-church and, what I find worse, Calvinist. However there are at least two High Church Anglican or Anglo-Catholic(to be honest I do not know whether there are set differences between these designations.) parishes in the metropolis.
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 06:54:41 AM »

John, you can draw 100% from Eastern orthodox saints in England before 1000. All saints before 1000 actually.

Oriental Orthodox and Eastern orthodox are different. I am speaking about Eastern orthodox.

Today Eastern orthodoxy is Eastern, before 1000 it was Western and too.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 07:13:33 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 07:08:23 AM »

Thank you for your reply Pasadi. I once read that Harold II and Anglo-Saxon England had Orthodox leanings after 1054 and this was part of the reason for the Papal support of William the Conqueror. I'm not sure how much truth is in it though.
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 07:11:50 AM »

Thank you for your reply Pasadi. I once read that Harold II and Anglo-Saxon England had Orthodox leanings after 1054 and this was part of the reason for the Papal support of William the Conqueror. I'm not sure how much truth is in it though.

I heard it too....just skimming through lecture however I can not confirm or deny it. It looked pretty convincing however to me.
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 08:00:57 AM »

If you are planning to return to England you might find the ROCOR Western Rite Orthodox missions there interesting. Here is the link to the one in Dorset run by Dr Gildas Meal http://kentorthodox.blogspot.com/  The Wordpress link at the top is a bit outdated now but if you scroll down a little he has information about his regular services. They don't have a priest at the moment but we hope that will change soon. If you want to email me at nadiamargaret [at] yahoo [dot] com  I can give you the email address of the WRO administrator who will be able to give you more information about their forms of worship (seem very Anglican to me) and so forth.

Best wishes,
Margaret
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 08:07:00 AM »

Hi John, and welcome.

Quote
In the various dissensions between Rome and the East it seems to me Rome is more wrong than right, but I cannot quite see Rome's errors(at least pre-Vatican II.) make it heterodox and heretical.

Take a look at a dogma like Papal supremacy. Is it true or not? If you don't think it's true, then how can dogmatizing something untrue not be heresy?

Quote
So my main points are what is the opinion here of the British Orthodox Church?

As I understand it, the BOC respects and reveres the British heritage but they use the Coptic rite. (I'm not sure if you were talking about rites or not).

Quote
And is it possible to integrate certain sensibilities of and admiration for British and Western Church figures(I mean only broadly orthodox figures like George Herbert), in their proper places, with membership of this Church?

Yes. I personally have great respect for Dante, Milton, George MacDonald, etc. Just ignore some of the more rabid anti-Western polemics which are loud and obnoxious but really represent a small niche in the Church.
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 08:22:48 AM »

An interesting article..... after the Great Schism 0f 1054 and the Continental Norman invasion of Britain a few years later in 1066, many of the Anglo-Saxon and Scottish nobility and military fled as refugees to Constantinople... the Patriarch accepted them as Orthodox and assigned a church for their use where they would have celebrated (probably?) the Sarum Rite.

English Refugees in the Byzantine Armed Forces:  The Varangian Guard and Anglo-Saxon Ethnic Consciousness

 By Nicholas C.J. Pappas


Sam Houston State University

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/pappas1.htm


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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 08:27:59 AM »

Some of the royal family fled to Rus'. King Harold's daughter Githa married Prince Vladimir Monomakh.
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 08:48:31 AM »

Thank you for your reply Pasadi. I once read that Harold II and Anglo-Saxon England had Orthodox leanings after 1054 and this was part of the reason for the Papal support of William the Conqueror. I'm not sure how much truth is in it though.

Hello, JohnofDorset.  Smiley I am Anglican living in the U.S.  However, I am joining in here on this point as I have an interest in the Anglo-Saxon period and studied it.  May I ask if you recall where you  read that, please? 

The political situation of England at that time was complicated by a number of different players and religion (looking at the original sources such as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles for example) does not come into the picture. Among those involved were, of course, King Edward, now called the Confessor, and his wife, Earl Godwin and his sons Harald and Tosti, (and other powerful Anglo-Saxon lords, too) Harald Hardrada, the king of Norway, and William of Normandy.   Power and land and wealth and control were the goals. 

I can recommend some books if you are interested.  Frank Barlow was an English Scholar who wrote several very good ones on the Godwins, English history of the period, and others.  The A-S Chronicle is also available to read on-line.

Welcome to the Forum.

 Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 08:50:05 AM »

Some of the royal family fled to Rus'. King Harold's daughter Githa married Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

The adventures of refugees can be so fascinating........  my own family (O Maonaigh) fled Ireland around 1850 to escape the Great Famine and they went to Australia and later some moved to New Zealand.

A few years ago while searching for a source for icons from Russia I met a young man Ivan Voronev (Sean O Brien), very devoutly Orthodox, and was surprised that he was the organiser of the Moscow Celtic Reconstructionist Society and spoke Irish.   It turned out that while my family was moving down to the Pacific to escape the Famine his family (O Brien = Raven = russified to Voronev= Raven) had fled north to Russia.   
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« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2011, 09:04:23 AM »

An interesting article..... after the Great Schism 0f 1054 and the Continental Norman invasion of Britain a few years later in 1066, many of the Anglo-Saxon and Scottish nobility and military fled as refugees to Constantinople... the Patriarch accepted them as Orthodox and assigned a church for their use where they would have celebrated (probably?) the Sarum Rite.

English Refugees in the Byzantine Armed Forces:  The Varangian Guard and Anglo-Saxon Ethnic Consciousness

 By Nicholas C.J. Pappas


Sam Houston State University

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/pappas1.htm




Thank you for the link.  The question of how many went is one that is not easily answered.  However, it is certainly recorded that many of the Anglo-Saxons did not leave.  Indeed Edgar Atheling, whom many thought the rightful heir to King Edward as the last male of the line of Cerdic of Wessex, after becoming an adult in England and going on various ventures in such places as Sicily (Norman ventures), Scotland and Jerusalem died in England.  

I'm puzzled at the idea of the Scottish leaving since Scotland was at that time an independent country. Also as a side note Edgar's Sister married King Malcolm III and is now St. Margaret of Scotland. Her daughter Edith (aka Matilda) married Henry I of England.

/history geeking

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« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2011, 10:20:34 AM »

Dear John,

While I can't be of much help on the historical front, what I can say is that Australia does need to be evangelized by the Orthodox Church, and I think it can be acculturated (in Australia's case, this is in an Anglo direction).  I would suggest that you get in contact with the Orthodox communities in the UK for help.

If there is some way that you can also find others of like-mind with yourself that can for some kind of network, you may be able to draw enough numbers to form a community and thus be able to host a missionary priest of the Western Rite from one of the jurisdictions that practices the rite.

God be with you!
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« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2011, 10:24:19 AM »

Some of the royal family fled to Rus'. King Harold's daughter Githa married Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

The adventures of refugees can be so fascinating........  my own family (O Maonaigh) fled Ireland around 1850 to escape the Great Famine and they went to Australia and later some moved to New Zealand.

A few years ago while searching for a source for icons from Russia I met a young man Ivan Voronev (Sean O Brien), very devoutly Orthodox, and was surprised that he was the organiser of the Moscow Celtic Reconstructionist Society and spoke Irish.   It turned out that while my family was moving down to the Pacific to escape the Famine his family (O Brien = Raven = russified to Voronev= Raven) had fled north to Russia.   

Are you related by any chance to the Wild Colonial Boy?
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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2011, 10:57:24 AM »

Judging by such websites as http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/30915.htm  the Greek Orthodox in Australia number 500,000 and the Russian 150,000.   Add in the Lebanese, Serbs and Romanians and it is probably touching around 900,000.

With a total population of 21,766,000 Australians, this means that 1 in every 24 persons is Orthodox.
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2011, 11:19:37 AM »

The two Western Rite communities in the UK were created in the last few years through the missionary work of an Australian, Fr Michael Mansbridge-Wood of Hobart Tasmania.  He was resident in the UK until February this year; now back home in Tasmania.  Father Michael was a traditionalist Continuing Anglican priest.  At the moment the UK groups lack a priest but they come under the Russian Orthodox Church and Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Church Abroad is sending Bishop Jerome (the Vicar Bishop for Western Rite in the States) to the UK later in the year where he may ordain a candidate for sacerdotal Orders.


There is a comprehensive website for this combined Australian-UK work  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

If you wanted to contact Fr Michael in Tasmania you will find him at UTAS chaplaincy and his public e-mail is
m.wood  @   utas.edu.au

Addresses and telephones
http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2011, 11:34:05 AM »

Some of the royal family fled to Rus'. King Harold's daughter Githa married Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

The adventures of refugees can be so fascinating........  my own family (O Maonaigh) fled Ireland around 1850 to escape the Great Famine and they went to Australia and later some moved to New Zealand.

A few years ago while searching for a source for icons from Russia I met a young man Ivan Voronev (Sean O Brien), very devoutly Orthodox, and was surprised that he was the organiser of the Moscow Celtic Reconstructionist Society and spoke Irish.   It turned out that while my family was moving down to the Pacific to escape the Famine his family (O Brien = Raven = russified to Voronev= Raven) had fled north to Russia.   

Are you related by any chance to the Wild Colonial Boy?

That is a private matter between his mother and me!  laugh Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2011, 12:55:24 PM »

Judging by such websites as http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/30915.htm  the Greek Orthodox in Australia number 500,000 and the Russian 150,000.   Add in the Lebanese, Serbs and Romanians and it is probably touching around 900,000.

With a total population of 21,766,000 Australians, this means that 1 in every 24 persons is Orthodox.
when 25 in every 24 persons is Orthodox, we will rest easy, Father. Cheesy

Btw, if the figures are accurate, there are more Greek Orthodox than Greeks in Australia, which is good (nothing against Greeks-its the 4th most spoken language in AU after English, Chinese and Italian, but would be nice if the Faith wasn't bound by language).
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2011, 01:09:39 PM »

An interesting article..... after the Great Schism 0f 1054 and the Continental Norman invasion of Britain a few years later in 1066, many of the Anglo-Saxon and Scottish nobility and military fled as refugees to Constantinople... the Patriarch accepted them as Orthodox and assigned a church for their use where they would have celebrated (probably?) the Sarum Rite.

English Refugees in the Byzantine Armed Forces:  The Varangian Guard and Anglo-Saxon Ethnic Consciousness

 By Nicholas C.J. Pappas


Sam Houston State University

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/pappas1.htm




Thank you for the link.  The question of how many went is one that is not easily answered.  However, it is certainly recorded that many of the Anglo-Saxons did not leave.  Indeed Edgar Atheling, whom many thought the rightful heir to King Edward as the last male of the line of Cerdic of Wessex, after becoming an adult in England and going on various ventures in such places as Sicily (Norman ventures), Scotland and Jerusalem died in England.  

I'm puzzled at the idea of the Scottish leaving since Scotland was at that time an independent country. Also as a side note Edgar's Sister married King Malcolm III and is now St. Margaret of Scotland. Her daughter Edith (aka Matilda) married Henry I of England.

/history geeking

Ebor

modified to correct a spelling error
LOL. You answered your own question: Margaret got the "St." part by vigorously making the last remnants of Celtic traditions conform to the program dictated by the Vatican, which included Angliczation (she introduced English at court; cf. Pope Adrian IV and his papal bull Lauddabiliter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudabiliter and the Irish crusade).  Btw, it is interesting how much the "Gregorian Reforms" were involved with institutionalizing Ultramontanism and the schism from Orthodoxy throughout the Patriarchate of the West.  The old St. Joseph Missal goes mentions her "services" to the church in this, without specifying against whom and what was done.

Quote
When his wife died around 1069, he [King Malcom III of Scotland] married Margaret, Edgar Atheling’s sister. Edgar would have become King of England if William the Conqueror from Normandy had not invaded the country. They had six sons, three of them (Edgar, Alexander and David) would be kings.

Margaret introduced English customs and language into the Scottish court and also church procedure but she never learnt Gaelic, which was the language spoken by many Scots at that time.

Her son, Kind David I built a small church inside Edinburgh Castle which was dedicated to her memory; the church is known as St. Margaret’s Chapel and it’s the oldest building in the castle.


In 1071 Malcolm was forced to sign the Treaty of Abernethy; and his son Duncan became a hostage in England. This happened as a result of the large number of English exiles who gathered in the court and also due to Malcolm’s raids into Northumbria and Cumbria.

Despite the worries of the English king, Malcolm made two more raids into England in 1079 and 1091 and once more he lost and had to submit to the English king.

After the English had driven out the Scots from their hold on Cumbria, Malcolm headed a final incursion in 1093. This led to his defeat and death at Alnwick. His son and heir Edward died in the same battle and Queen Margaret died in Edinburgh Castle four days later. She was later canonized for her patronage of the church.
http://www.scotlandinargentina.com.ar/bio-malcolm3ing.htm
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2011, 01:18:29 PM »

Edgar Aetheling would not have become king if William had not invaded because we already had a king, Harold Godwinson.
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2011, 01:58:46 PM »

Replying to the OP.

The British Orthodox Church uses the Greek Liturgy of St James and the rites of the Coptic Orthodox Church for all other services and sacraments. I consider myself, as perhaps many here from different backgrounds and jurisdictions might do, as a Western Orthodox using an Eastern rite.  We use only English, although I am always seeking to learn various pieces of liturgical text in other languages so that I can welcome those from other ethnicities. I consider myself to be entirely English and I worship as an Englishman.

But clearly I do not use a Catholic rite, and certainly not an Anglican one. As has been said, we venerate the saints of the British Isles, and take a great interest in our Christian heritage. I am organising an important conference next year in London on the Saints of the British Isles. It is natural for us to worship at the shrines of British saints. But Orthodoxy is wider than any one ethnicity, even the English, and in some sense I am sure that we wish to have a certain universality about our Orthodoxy so that we do not exclude others, while also being rooted in a real Tradition.

I have an interest in Francis of Assisi, Brother Lawrence, and in the Non-Jurors, and in the Little Gidding community. But I am interested in these secondarily and after a proper interest in the Orthodox Fathers of East and West, of the past and the present. I am interested, for instance, in the Eastern influences on Francis of Assisi, and on his relations with Eastern Christians when he was in Egypt. I think that he has been mich maligned and misrepresented by some Eastern Christians, but I am not and would not be an 'Orthodox Franciscan'.

I am also not much interested in many aspects of Anglicanism. I was never an Anglican. I was a Plymouth Brother. I therefore have no sense within me in which I see Anglicanism as on a continuity with Orthodoxy. There are of course those who were Anglicans in the British Orthodox Church, but the BOC is not a Continuing Anglican Church at all, and my own experience of Anglican enquirers is that they have tended to want to remain Anglican at any cost rather than becoming genuinely Orthodox. I don't believe it is possible to be Anglican and Orthodox. I don't believe that Anglicanism is Western Orthodoxy, and I don't believe that Orthodoxy should be, or needs to be, Anglican in some sense to attract English people. Most English people never visit an Anglican Church, and Orthodox worship in English is no more difficult to comprehend for such people than High Church Anglicanism.

The British Orthodox Church is not opposed to a Western Rite, but it is not appropriate for a small diocese to have multiple rites, and we find our liturgical unity in the Liturgy of St James. I have also to say that having used the same Liturgy for 17 years means that we have avoided all those heated discussions which seem to take place around the choice of a Western Rite.

So I will second some of the suggestions already made here. You would be more than welcome to attend a British Orthodox liturgy and I hope that you would find it interesting and spiritual, but it is the Liturgy of St James, it is not either the Sarum or Gregorian rite. If the rite is very important to you then there are groups in the Eastern Orthodox who are seeking to use forms of Western Rite. But apart from the issue of liturgical texts and practices, we are as committed to venerating and preserving our own local Christian heritage as much as anyone else. My own patron saint is buried just 18 miles from where I am sitting.

God bless your interest in Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »

My own patron saint is buried just 18 miles from where I am sitting.


This is the lovely thing about the UK. Saints and wells everywhere, even a few rag trees still around. I live in Edinburgh and arguably the most famous thing about Edinburgh is the castle but five centuries before there was a castle there was a nunnery founded by a sixth century Irish nun called Modwenna.

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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2011, 02:48:21 PM »

Edgar Aetheling would not have become king if William had not invaded because we already had a king, Harold Godwinson.

Edgar Atheling was 14 years old at the time of King Edward's death and Harald Godwinson was 1) an adult who had been in battles and was counted as one of, if not the most, powerful man in the kingdom after the monarch  2) present at the king's deathbed with his sister who was the queen.  Edgar was the closest male heir of the reigning house but other forces were brought to bear such that the Witanagemot agreed to Harald taking the crown.  Following the Battle of Hastings this "Meeting of Wise Men" did, in fact, have Edgar Atheling assume the throne for the short time until William took over. 

The point of so many Anglo-Saxon nobility leaving for eastern areas was what I was addressing on the matter of Margaret.  She was aka Margaret of Wessex and of the royal line. She did not go east but north and she was held to be a saint for her many charitable works.  I answered no question about the matter of any Scots leaving and I have seen no information or documentation that they did (except to go south to England for various battles at least on the part of Malcolm and his army).

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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2011, 05:52:49 PM »

The other day Michal mentioned the St Aidan western rite Orthodox mission which apparently exists or existed around Darlinghurst, but I've had zero luck tracking it down.
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2011, 06:45:30 PM »

I therefore have no sense within me in which I see Anglicanism as on a continuity with Orthodoxy. There are of course those who were Anglicans in the British Orthodox Church, but the BOC is not a Continuing Anglican Church at all, and my own experience of Anglican enquirers is that they have tended to want to remain Anglican at any cost rather than becoming genuinely Orthodox. I don't believe it is possible to be Anglican and Orthodox. I don't believe that Anglicanism is Western Orthodoxy, and I don't believe that Orthodoxy should be, or needs to be, Anglican in some sense to attract English people. Most English people never visit an Anglican Church, and Orthodox worship in English is no more difficult to comprehend for such people than High Church Anglicanism.

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2011, 08:10:38 PM »

Thank you all for your replies.

Father Peter; I'm not sure if it is a continuation of  Anglicanism in Orthodoxy I'm looking. Except for a certain admiration for the strictly Cranmer-ian and traditional Anglican Church and particularly the beautiful common book of prayer and King James bible(jewels of the English language.) my loyalty to Anglicanism is more simply a loyalty to the Church in England, particularly in its medieval forms. I'm think there always has been a slight difference between it and say the churches of Italy or France of Spain. My interest in Anglican sages and saints otherwise only really extends to those few which seem to somehow continue to embody this medieval church in England such as some of the metaphysical poets, the Caroline divines, non-jurors and the Tractarians.

I am one of those individuals who likes to read a lot of old works from Saints and Fathers and Philosophers and indeed Poets, though I'm not sure how much I ever manage to comprehend. I just wanted to make sure that admiring the poetry and indeed spirituality of George Herbert wouldn't  be seen as too incongruous for a member of an Orthodox Church.

I did not know that there were other Western Rite Orthodox Churches in Britain. I had always consider the BOC as the natural choice, but I'm not quite sure about Oriental Orthodoxy for myself and what that entails today which differs in significant ways to Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2011, 11:52:46 PM »

I should make it clear that it is already the case that it is the Orthodox Fathers, East and West but particularly the Alexandrian and Cappadocian Fathers, that I look to most. It is certainly not the case now that I place Anglican or Roman Saints and Sages above Orthodox ones and obviously this would not change if I moved to an Orthodox Church.

Iconodule, I guess with the Papal Supremacy and that sort of thing I think the Roman Church is more wrong than right, but that it doesn't matter to the core of the faith. I'm far more concerned with the rationalism of later Schoolmen(perhaps to a degree even with the earlier ones.), nominalism, Cartesianism and such similar problems that have arisen in the Roman Church. I'm very much interested in holistic, symbolist, even mystical spirituality and metaphysics.

I suppose it would be a disputed view for many Orthodox and I do consider myself quite a traditionalist, but I do consider a lot of the divisions between the main, magisterial branches of the Church to be somewhat overblown.
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2011, 02:58:27 AM »

I had always consider the BOC as the natural choice
Because it has the name "British" in it?  Wink
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2011, 08:54:36 AM »

Iconodule, I guess with the Papal Supremacy and that sort of thing I think the Roman Church is more wrong than right, but that it doesn't matter to the core of the faith.

If it were merely a matter of opinion I would agree with you. Unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church has defined Papal supremacy as a dogma, thereby making it part of the "core of the faith" for them.
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2011, 09:11:47 AM »

I think it only really matters when they use it do wrong and we, and the members of the Roman Church within reason, have the right to reject it when they do. Otherwise I do not think it is central to the faith of their church. I personally think that focusing on it and not say rationalism, nominalism and renaissance humanism and such evils, let alone the big one of Vatican II which seems to have almost destroyed traditional Catholicism, that have grown up in the Roman Church, and not necessarily been completely dealt with, would be a mistake.
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2011, 09:18:06 AM »

I think it only really matters when they use it do wrong and we, and the members of the Roman Church within reason, have the right to reject it when they do. Otherwise I do not think it is central to the faith of their church. I personally think that focusing on it and not say rationalism, nominalism and renaissance humanism and such evils, let alone the big one of Vatican II which seems to have almost destroyed traditional Catholicism, that have grown up in the Roman Church, and not necessarily been completely dealt with, would be a mistake.

This is a seductive mode of reasoning, but I think Iconodule is ultimately correct: by elevating the notion of papal infallibility to the level of dogma, the Roman church has made it clear that the infallibility of the Roman pope is a truth of the same fundamental importance as even the Christological definitions of the early councils.

As much as it may seem like the Roman church has bigger doctrinal problems, this one is potentially more problematic than it might first seem.
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2011, 10:47:38 AM »

One must remember that 'infallibility' is a rather new term for them, but obviously the natural progression of the much earlier 'supremacy' argument.  The Christological and anthropological problems caused by the argument for infallibility has cause the Church of Rome to back away from it.

The larger concern is that of authority and inequality.  In the Orthodox Church, all Christians are equal, though God gifts them with different roles within the One Body.  This is why the canons generally speak of a person under discipline as having excommunicated himself rather than by a clergyman of whatever function.

The same is true of dogmatic proclamations: 'It seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us.'  It is a plurality that establishes authority, rather than being vested in an individual.  The ministry of a clergyman emanates from his bishop who in turn is united with a synod.  However, all are answerable to the entire Church, which is represented by all the bishops rather than one, or even a 'college' of higher-ranking bishops.  I believe it is ultimately this understanding of authority as top-down, rather than through the catholicity of the Body of Christ, that has harmed the Church of Rome.



I think it only really matters when they use it do wrong and we, and the members of the Roman Church within reason, have the right to reject it when they do. Otherwise I do not think it is central to the faith of their church. I personally think that focusing on it and not say rationalism, nominalism and renaissance humanism and such evils, let alone the big one of Vatican II which seems to have almost destroyed traditional Catholicism, that have grown up in the Roman Church, and not necessarily been completely dealt with, would be a mistake.

This is a seductive mode of reasoning, but I think Iconodule is ultimately correct: by elevating the notion of papal infallibility to the level of dogma, the Roman church has made it clear that the infallibility of the Roman pope is a truth of the same fundamental importance as even the Christological definitions of the early councils.

As much as it may seem like the Roman church has bigger doctrinal problems, this one is potentially more problematic than it might first seem.
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2011, 07:08:41 PM »

I know the topic of the Roman Church  tangential one, but has anyone read the work of Rama Coomaraswamy on Vatican II? The opening chapter is available online;

http://worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=The_Problem--Is_It_The_Same_Church_by_Rama_Coomaraswamy.pdf

Whatever the relatively problematic nature of certain earlier errors of the Roman Church, Vatican II has all but destroyed the traditional Roman Catholic Church. Coomaraswamy, who became a sedevacantist(someone who believes the Papacy has been unoccupied since 1958.) priest, I believe, shows, like the modern devastation in the Anglican and Lutheran Churches, the Roman Church has to sort out the mess of Vatican II out before it can fix older errors.

The doctrine of infallibility seems to be a natural outgrowth of the power of the bishop of Rome. Some figure or body must be, in effect if not in name, infallible. I prefer the conciliar organisation myself, but we must remember the Church is no democracy either, indeed one of Vatican II's errors was to introduce a much more democratic spirit into the Roman Church. The Truth, the Holy Spirit, is the infallible ruler of the Church and though each member of the Church has a duty to maintain the Truth, there has always been a hierarchical, on one level, nature to the Church as some men are more holy and wise than others and have the right, the Truth has its rights so speak, to be heard and to govern.

When it comes to doctrine, and this will no doubt sound very Platonist, I think it has an crucial role to play in leading men to Truth, through the Spirit. Without right doctrine there will be confusion in the Church and men will go their own way, away from Christ. However it must be remembered that the written and discursive formulations of doctrines are not the same thing as the intelligible truths, gateway and ladder to the Truth itself, they contain. To treat all doctrines, and therefore all errors, in a similar fashion would itself be a rationalist and legalistic error that forgets the hierarchic and ultimately non-discursive(ratio .) nature of the Truth. In my opinion the Tridentine Roman Church, at its best, embodied the Truth to a high degree and was filled with the Holy Spirit, not as much as the Orthodox Churches(as the Roman Church had to deal with errors like rationalism and humanism, although it did manage to keep these at bay quite often from Trent to Vatican II.), but it was still a very legitimate branch of the Universal Church. Rationalism, nominalism, Cartesianism et al are particularly worrying because they take you away from spirituality and receptivity to the Truth, Faith and Love of God. I don't think the role of the Papacy can directly cause the same sort of spiritual damage.

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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2011, 07:37:07 PM »


The doctrine of infallibility seems to be a natural outgrowth of the power of the bishop of Rome. Some figure or body must be, in effect if not in name, infallible. I prefer the conciliar organisation myself,


Have a look at Bulgakov's words in message 17
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39274.msg631611.html#msg631611

"The ecclesiastical fetishism which seeks an oracle speaking in the name of the Holy Spirit and which finds it in the person of a supreme hierarch, or in the Episcopal order and its assemblies — this fetishism is a terrible symptom of half-faith."

Let's not imprison ourselves within what is obviously a Roman Catholic fixation.  Try and stop focusing on "infallible" - the word doesn't really exist in Russian. They make use of "nepogreshimost" which means "impeccability."  

Councils do not claim to be infallible.  They have never made such a claim.  The search for "infallibility" is a peculiar fixation of the Western Church, probably only of the Roman Catholic Church.

What the Councils do do is proclaim that they are in conformity with the Scriptures, the Fathers and with preceding Councils. "As the Fathers have taught, so do we proclaim..."

Their genius is not "infallibility" but "faithfulness"  -  faithfulness to the mind of the Church.


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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2011, 08:15:36 PM »

The Truth of the Spirit is infallible so to speak, in the sense that direct, Intellectual and Loving unitive knowledge of the Truth, as experienced by the Saints, sages and mystics is infallible and not in any sense uncertain or fallible, as the moderns would make all knowledge. C.S Lewis somewhere talks of this sort of Intellectual knowledge, which he calls by its medieval name of Intellectus, where one just sees the certain Truth, as the Angels do, and he compares it to ratio or reason, which is all modernism knows at its best, which is an indirect, discursive knowledge, deducing causes from effects.

What I meant in that passage though it was simply an echo of a point De Maistre made, that in effect there must be a human sovereignty or authority in the Church(and indeed he notes elsewhere, including the state.), though no doubt it is often guided by the Spirit, and that in effect this sovereignty is 'infallible' in the sense of being ultimate or absolute(in human terms.). The analogy of government is useful. Some people talk about the absolute governments of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries where the King was absolute(I'm generalising and simplifying here). But all workable governments are absolute, it is just that in a modern government it is not the King alone who is absolute but the various branches taken together; the legislative branch may not be absolute but combined with the executive and judicial branches it is. I suppose I used the term 'infallible' somewhat loosely though. One can clearly make different claims about the level of God-given power you have, but in effect, unless you want to allow open and general dissension, anyone making an authoritative claim must in practice act as if they are 'infallible'. I certainly do not agree that the bishop of Rome is quite correct in making the claims about the source and extent of his authority that he makes however.
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2011, 08:30:36 PM »


What I meant in that passage though it was simply an echo of a point De Maistre made, that in effect there must be a human sovereignty or authority in the Church(and indeed he notes elsewhere, including the state.), though no doubt it is often guided by the Spirit, and that in effect this sovereignty is 'infallible' in the sense of being ultimate or absolute(in human terms.).


Where can we posit this organ of infallibility in today's Church?

1.  It is not in any of our Patriarchs since none of them would make such a claim.

2.  Ecumenical Councils?   Certainly not today.  Certainly not as an ongoing vital organ in the Church.  We held 7 Councils in a brief 460 year period, from 325AD to 787AD.   For the last 1200 years we have not held any such Council.  So they obviously are not a continuing principle of infallibility in the life of the Church.

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