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Author Topic: Demonic Aspects of Karate, etc.  (Read 7209 times) Average Rating: 0
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Sauron
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« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2011, 07:28:54 PM »

Orthonorm, the opposite can also be the case.

Knowing that I have absolutely no capacity to kill and could probably lose a fight to a girl, I am constantly on guard about other people, judging them, avoiding eye contact, hoping they don't come near me ...

Sometimes I think if everyone was a little bit afraid of me, I could have the freedom to love them a bit more, knowing their capacity to hurt me is diminished.

I wonder which mindset is worse.

I think you are selling yourself short. I think everyone posting here has the ability to kill. Perhaps not through your own brute strength or unarmed technique, but the ability is there all the same. Drunk drivers do it all the time with zero training.
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« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2011, 07:42:29 PM »

Orthonorm, the opposite can also be the case.

Knowing that I have absolutely no capacity to kill and could probably lose a fight to a girl, I am constantly on guard about other people, judging them, avoiding eye contact, hoping they don't come near me ...

Sometimes I think if everyone was a little bit afraid of me, I could have the freedom to love them a bit more, knowing their capacity to hurt me is diminished.

I wonder which mindset is worse.

I think you are selling yourself short. I think everyone posting here has the ability to kill. Perhaps not through your own brute strength or unarmed technique, but the ability is there all the same. Drunk drivers do it all the time with zero training.


Well said. Something to think about.
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« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2011, 09:03:33 PM »



3- As for the OP, I agree with him to a degree.  Martial arts can get in the way of prayer.  So can soap operas or any other activity.  If something, anything, keeps you further from God then it is demonically influenced.  But you can do these things without harm to your soul.  No sport or activity is intrinsically evil. 

Except maybe golf.

Nice.  well played.   Kiss
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« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2011, 09:07:14 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I do take offense b/c there is no way that you know that. 

In fact, this same person at his baptism, who had personally experienced all these things that I keep writing, had 2 demons (black smokey objects) come out of his mouth as he was being fully immersed under water for the baptism.  So...to say that it's ridiculous & patently false seems to be severely mistaken. 

Let me take a break here and say that there seems to be a break in communication between you and me.  I'm assuming that everything you are saying is correct.  I am also assuming that everything I am saying is correct.  That is what dialogue is all about.  If you think that what i'm saying is just ridiculous b/c of your own life experience, say that.  However, please also read the things that I am putting down and say to yourself "hm, I wonder if this were true, then x + y could also be true in my life" 

I think it's a worthwhile exercise. 
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« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2011, 09:08:22 PM »

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

This expert is either lying, delusional, or naive. Probably all three.

please see my response above. 
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« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2011, 09:11:04 PM »

I guess I'm supposed to let a mugger beat me up, then...  Shocked
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« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2011, 09:18:22 PM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

Its scripted by the very fact you know *something* is going to happen and you are not wanting to devour the other human or vice versa. Unless you are.

I know what they mean by "live" . . . just more fantasy.

I don't want to even get into "women's" self-defense.

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« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2011, 09:38:59 PM »

Because, obviously, you're 'out on the street' 'kicking --- every day.' Who are you, Chuck Norris?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2011, 10:08:15 PM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

Its scripted by the very fact you know *something* is going to happen and you are not wanting to devour the other human or vice versa. Unless you are.

I know what they mean by "live" . . . just more fantasy.

I don't want to even get into "women's" self-defense.

Talk to Boom Boom Mancini about how a boxing match is "just more fantasy".
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« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2011, 12:15:37 AM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

Its scripted by the very fact you know *something* is going to happen and you are not wanting to devour the other human or vice versa. Unless you are.

I know what they mean by "live" . . . just more fantasy.

I don't want to even get into "women's" self-defense.



Krav Maga, Systema, Tae Kwon Do and other military martial arts have a purpose.  It's not so much "alive" training as it is "realistic".  Form is less important than effect.  Most of the guys I've seen doing Systema are wearing camouflage and combat boots (I have seen a picture of an ROK soldier once doing a flying Tae Kwon Do kick in full uniform, pot helmet and everything).  Systema also uses weapons in close combat training, not samurai swords but empty AKs and sharpened shovels.  ANything you might find yourself having to use then the rifle jammed or, more likely with an AK, went empty. 

So some martial arts have value...if you have the killer intent.

Women's self defense generally involves telling them not to drop the gun, don't point it at me, and keep your finger off the bloody trigger until it is down range and you are ready to shoot.  I also pray continuously the whole time and then have a drink or three afterwards.  It was a horrifying experience to say the least.  Even if she learned nothing about using the gun properly, I think I am one step closer to fearlessness!
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« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2011, 05:34:21 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?
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« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2011, 07:37:24 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.
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« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2011, 09:58:28 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.
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« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2011, 10:15:51 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

Since he wasn't actually the one being taken from the "dojo" to the mountains of China or wherever, not necessarily.

And while this may very well have happened to one person he knows, to say that this is a common or general practice is silly.
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« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2011, 11:18:31 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

Lighten up.  It is actually a reasonable request to ask someone who goes out of their way to say, "that is ridiculous and patently false," to back up their statement, since they obviously feel strongly enough to skip, "I don't believe you," and go right to, "objectively this is incorrect."

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.

My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice.  So yes, sometimes the stuff in strip malls is good, but many times its not.  If they're promising that you'll get your black belt definitely in <3-4 years, or, conversely, if you have to practically die to get it (starvation, sleep deprivation, fighting a room full of black belts, and then be evaluated afterward), then it's not legit.
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« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2011, 11:22:55 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

I am not familiar with the training or experiences of Orthodox priests, but does it include being whisked away to the mountains of China to learn about super secret kung fu techniques? I would find that rather surprising.
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« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2011, 11:29:12 AM »


My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice. 

That's completely different from what's being claimed here. It's one thing to say that they are devaluing or corrupting the practice. Of course that will happen with anything where there's money to be made from gullible people. It's a completely different thing to say that there is some secret dimension to the practice revealed to high-level initiates who get sent to China or Japan. Yes, some western students do end up traveling to Asia because they hear that some great teachers are there, which makes sense. There's no occult fraternity conferring kung fu superpowers though.
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« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2011, 11:34:59 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

Lighten up.

Really?

Quote
It is actually a reasonable request to ask someone who goes out of their way to say, "that is ridiculous and patently false," to back up their statement, since they obviously feel strongly enough to skip, "I don't believe you," and go right to, "objectively this is incorrect."

It is not reasonable because it calls for the proof of a negative. It was not for Marc to prove that there are no super secret awesome training temples in the foothills of China, but for serb1389 to give some supporting evidence. Unfortunately, the best he can do is "some guy told me". As a more general matter, serb1389's entire point was a special pleading. Marc doesn't have to prove a special pleading wrong because it is wrong as a matter of logic.

Quote
As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.

My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice.  So yes, sometimes the stuff in strip malls is good, but many times its not.  If they're promising that you'll get your black belt definitely in <3-4 years, or, conversely, if you have to practically die to get it (starvation, sleep deprivation, fighting a room full of black belts, and then be evaluated afterward), then it's not legit.

Don't get me wrong. I am not extolling the virtues of strip mall McDojos. I think a lot of it is bullshido. My meaning of my comment is that saying "the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path" sounds just like when conspiracy theorists say to their grandfather who has been a Mason for decades, "oh grandpa, you don't see any of the conspiracy because you didn't get invited up to the super high levels that controls the money supply and the presidential election and whether they will ever remake 'The Last Starfigher'."

It's special pleading, plain and simple, and special pleading is fallacious.
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« Reply #108 on: September 01, 2011, 11:38:36 AM »


My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice. 

That's completely different from what's being claimed here. It's one thing to say that they are devaluing or corrupting the practice. Of course that will happen with anything where there's money to be made from gullible people. It's a completely different thing to say that there is some secret dimension to the practice revealed to high-level initiates who get sent to China or Japan. Yes, some western students do end up traveling to Asia because they hear that some great teachers are there, which makes sense. There's no occult fraternity conferring kung fu superpowers though.

This. Drawing from my personal experience, westerners certainly go to the Kodokan in Tokyo to train judo. But, it's just a building in Bunkyo Ward. It has a cafeteria, for crying out loud. There is no secret cabal of mysticism going on.
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« Reply #109 on: September 01, 2011, 11:43:39 AM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I do take offense b/c there is no way that you know that. 

In fact, this same person at his baptism, who had personally experienced all these things that I keep writing, had 2 demons (black smokey objects) come out of his mouth as he was being fully immersed under water for the baptism.  So...to say that it's ridiculous & patently false seems to be severely mistaken. 

Let me take a break here and say that there seems to be a break in communication between you and me.  I'm assuming that everything you are saying is correct.  I am also assuming that everything I am saying is correct.  That is what dialogue is all about.  If you think that what i'm saying is just ridiculous b/c of your own life experience, say that.  However, please also read the things that I am putting down and say to yourself "hm, I wonder if this were true, then x + y could also be true in my life" 

I think it's a worthwhile exercise. 

I dont doubt that people can and do have experiences with Demons. But to paint something as wholesome and worthwhile as Karate as akin to an evil cult that will lure you into demonic contact is pretty darn wrong to claim.

My experience is decades of being involved with Karate and decades dealing with the Japanese as a Buddhist.

Most Karate here in suburban USA is about kids learning discipline. It's not about killing anyone or potentially being lured into a demonic trap. It's about growing up, getting homework done on time, getting physically fit and leaning how to overcome obstacles and becoming a little brave.
When you're an adult it's about staying fit and and some of the above virtues as they still apply.

When my son was robbed ( he is a 2nd degree black belt, 22 years old) the mugger probably was just pretending to be armed. His Karate training kicked in which was to never never never try to fight in such a situation and so he handed over his wallet. That's called good training. If he had resisted, his teacher would have had his head on a plate.

No one, should be scared off from learning Karate because of dire warnings by green belts or folks who have never set foot in a dojo.  

 My apologies to the Cage Fighters, paid Mercenaries and Army Rangers among us.
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« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2011, 12:03:52 PM »

My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice.  So yes, sometimes the stuff in strip malls is good, but many times its not.  If they're promising that you'll get your black belt definitely in <3-4 years, or, conversely, if you have to practically die to get it (starvation, sleep deprivation, fighting a room full of black belts, and then be evaluated afterward), then it's not legit.


Is that your experience? Stuff your Dad's cousin has said and maybe not even directly to you? Have you ever been involved in karate yourself ( yes/no) circle one.

Yes there are certainly very weak Teachers who run Karate Mills. You have to be careful and get some advice before signing up.

While starvation was not part of the Black Belt Test ( I have either participated in or watched dozens) fighting everyone in the Dojo is normal fare. You must demonstrate that you know all the forms from 1st to last, answer questions and then spar with everyone.

I remember one test in particular. The student was a very nice guy but maybe thought a bit too much of his own skills. So the Teacher brought in a ringer from New York who was in our association of Goju Ryu, a tall lanky chap.

Once the student had gone through all the others and was tired the Teacher had him fight the ringer who kicked his a.. very thoroughly. There was blood all over the mats. The teacher flunked the Student even though I thought he did well enough. He wanted to teach him a lesson in humility.

That's good enough for normal people leading a normal life. Once again, starvation or being left on an ice flow for a couple of weeks only takes place in the vivid imagination of folks who have not had much contact with Karate. God rest David Carridine.

 
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« Reply #111 on: September 01, 2011, 04:35:06 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I do take offense b/c there is no way that you know that. 

In fact, this same person at his baptism, who had personally experienced all these things that I keep writing, had 2 demons (black smokey objects) come out of his mouth as he was being fully immersed under water for the baptism.  So...to say that it's ridiculous & patently false seems to be severely mistaken. 

Let me take a break here and say that there seems to be a break in communication between you and me.  I'm assuming that everything you are saying is correct.  I am also assuming that everything I am saying is correct.  That is what dialogue is all about.  If you think that what i'm saying is just ridiculous b/c of your own life experience, say that.  However, please also read the things that I am putting down and say to yourself "hm, I wonder if this were true, then x + y could also be true in my life" 

I think it's a worthwhile exercise. 

I dont doubt that people can and do have experiences with Demons. But to paint something as wholesome and worthwhile as Karate as akin to an evil cult that will lure you into demonic contact is pretty darn wrong to claim.

My experience is decades of being involved with Karate and decades dealing with the Japanese as a Buddhist.

Most Karate here in suburban USA is about kids learning discipline. It's not about killing anyone or potentially being lured into a demonic trap. It's about growing up, getting homework done on time, getting physically fit and leaning how to overcome obstacles and becoming a little brave.
When you're an adult it's about staying fit and and some of the above virtues as they still apply.

When my son was robbed ( he is a 2nd degree black belt, 22 years old) the mugger probably was just pretending to be armed. His Karate training kicked in which was to never never never try to fight in such a situation and so he handed over his wallet. That's called good training. If he had resisted, his teacher would have had his head on a plate.

No one, should be scared off from learning Karate because of dire warnings by green belts or folks who have never set foot in a dojo.  

 My apologies to the Cage Fighters, paid Mercenaries and Army Rangers among us.

Partially yes I am painting it the way you describe above.  Also though I am presenting the case that a young man presented to me recently, and am backing his case up by examples of things that have been witnessed in his life.  That to me is the proof.  If you disagree, you disagree. However, to say that it is impossible, to me, is naive. 

To think that you, or anyone else for that matter, are not opening yourselves, unnecessarily, is naive.  After all the explanations this young man gave me (and other people) and the details he went into with conversations he'd had with some of the highest members of Hinduism, etc. in the Orient, it was truly unbelievable how much demonology permeates through these things & actions. 

In my mind, it's not worth opening that door. 

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« Reply #112 on: September 01, 2011, 04:36:16 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

I am not familiar with the training or experiences of Orthodox priests, but does it include being whisked away to the mountains of China to learn about super secret kung fu techniques? I would find that rather surprising.


Surprising as it may be, I have no reason to think that this man was lying, especially considering some of the other experiences that happened & were witnessed. 
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« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2011, 04:40:51 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

Thanks.  I would say though that I'm open to being wrong b/c in the end only God knows what is truly going on, on a global level.  Also, I think we do need to keep in mind that this whole thing was started to have dialogue about this, not to have anyone be upset.  If anyone has an issue with what i've said, just tell me.  I think this is better than just saying "well he's a priest, he's always right".   angel
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« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2011, 04:44:27 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff? 

Also, partly i'm not revealing things b/c they are not my authority to reveal.  Confession, & the fact that the person who is the main backing behind what i'm saying & positing here doesn't know that i'm putting these things out here, keep me from really going into detail.  I pray that that is a good enough "logical " reason.  I'm not sure though.   Undecided
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« Reply #115 on: September 01, 2011, 04:55:51 PM »

Quote
Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff?

Father, I don't think anybody is disputing that this fellow told you what he told you, or accusing you of lying. The issue is the truthfulness of what he told you. *That* is what we have absolutely no evidence of, other than your secondhand recounting of things you did not personally witness. The fact that he told you these things isn't proof that they are true, no matter how trustworthy he may seem.

I've known people who are convinced they are vampires. If I posted here, claiming vampires were real, because a guy I knew told me he was one, I would hope nobody here would take my claims seriously. The same thing is going on here.
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« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2011, 05:01:56 PM »

Quote
Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff?

Father, I don't think anybody is disputing that this fellow told you what he told you, or accusing you of lying. The issue is the truthfulness of what he told you. *That* is what we have absolutely no evidence of, other than your secondhand recounting of things you did not personally witness. The fact that he told you these things isn't proof that they are true, no matter how trustworthy he may seem.

I've known people who are convinced they are vampires. If I posted here, claiming vampires were real, because a guy I knew told me he was one, I would hope nobody here would take my claims seriously. The same thing is going on here.


This is a phenomenal point.  That is why i'm trying to intersperse what I know about the spiritual unseen warfare that happens inside of each of us every day.  What this young man told me holds to be true of what I know about Orthodox Spirituality & the battle we face every day. 

Perhaps I am not doing such a great job of joining the two... Embarrassed
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« Reply #117 on: September 01, 2011, 05:04:33 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff? 

Be wise as serpents, and all that good stuff? I do not think I am being wise by believing everything I am told without question.

Things that have the "proof" of someone's word:

* Mary at Fatima
* the Loch Ness monster
* Elvis at Burger King
* leprechaun in the tree in Crichton, Alabama

This is not to say I think you are being intentional deceptive, or that the person who told you was. However, that doesn't mean he was not mistaken. Or, maybe he was relating something that he was told, that someone told him, that someone else said, and now we have the telephone game.
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« Reply #118 on: September 01, 2011, 05:22:47 PM »

Hold....back up back up back up...

Did you say this guy had Black Monkeys come out of his mouth when he was Baptized ?
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« Reply #119 on: September 01, 2011, 05:27:44 PM »

Hold....back up back up back up...

Did you say this guy had Black Monkeys come out of his mouth when he was Baptized ?

Now that would just be silly. Instead, black smokey demons came flying out of his mouth.  laugh
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« Reply #120 on: September 01, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: September 01, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley

I have no problem with anyone being skeptical!  I just think let's say that instead of saying "there's no way that's true".  Because most unfortunately, it is true. 
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« Reply #122 on: September 01, 2011, 05:53:35 PM »

Let's assume that what the young man told Father is true. It's just not common or general to the martial arts. Such experiences would be exceedingly rare and bizarre in the martial arts world. There is pretty much no chance that the average Westerner taking taijiquan or karate lessons is going to bump into this.

I do wonder, though, which martial arts practice would bring someone to meet the "highest members of Hinduism" (?).
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« Reply #123 on: September 01, 2011, 06:01:10 PM »

Let's assume that what the young man told Father is true. It's just not common or general to the martial arts. Such experiences would be exceedingly rare and bizarre in the martial arts world. There is pretty much no chance that the average Westerner taking taijiquan or karate lessons is going to bump into this.

I do wonder, though, which martial arts practice would bring someone to meet the "highest members of Hinduism" (?).

Maybe the Mysteries of the Yoga, like Dhalsim from Street Fighter. Perhaps the black smoke coming out of his mouth was his last Yoga Flame?

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« Reply #124 on: September 01, 2011, 08:28:20 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley

I have no problem with anyone being skeptical!  I just think let's say that instead of saying "there's no way that's true".  Because most unfortunately, it is true. 

Please listen carefully. No one, certainly not me, is overly skeptical about Demonic possession or experiences. Black Monkeys coming out of a person's mouth does perhaps strain credibility but I am perfectly open to hearing about such things.

What I am not too open to is second hand opinions about Karate that seek to damn it through ignorance. I can think of few things as wholesome or that builds up good character and all the virtues Christians seek than does Karate.

 Of course like anything there are extremes and exceptions and parts any reasonable person should steer clear of. However, I am speaking from long experience and you are not. It would be a shame to sully such a fine endeavor out of ignorance. Several things I have read here appear to be from people who clearly have little or no experience with Karate. I would suggest reserving extreme comments and outlandish claims to those things of which you know more about.   

Thank you and God Bless
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« Reply #125 on: September 01, 2011, 11:05:10 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley

I have no problem with anyone being skeptical!  I just think let's say that instead of saying "there's no way that's true".  Because most unfortunately, it is true. 

Please listen carefully. No one, certainly not me, is overly skeptical about Demonic possession or experiences. Black Monkeys coming out of a person's mouth does perhaps strain credibility but I am perfectly open to hearing about such things.

What I am not too open to is second hand opinions about Karate that seek to damn it through ignorance. I can think of few things as wholesome or that builds up good character and all the virtues Christians seek than does Karate.

 Of course like anything there are extremes and exceptions and parts any reasonable person should steer clear of. However, I am speaking from long experience and you are not.

I very much appreciate this post.  I also wonder why we could not have been so erudite & clear from the get-go.  I think it would have saved a lot of headaches, at least on my part. 

You are speaking of long experience in Karate I assume.  How do you know that I am not speaking from long experience in demonology & spiritual warfare?  Again...assumptions an discussion does not make. 

Quote
It would be a shame to sully such a fine endeavor out of ignorance.

I agree.  To be honest, this is the hardest part for me to argue with.  Unfortunately I do have to return to my whole repeated thought that I truly do believe that what this young man underwent was true, and that it makes a lot of sense from a spiritual perspective.

Quote
Several things I have read here appear to be from people who clearly have little or no experience with Karate. I would suggest reserving extreme comments and outlandish claims to those things of which you know more about.   

Thank you and God Bless

I'm not making outlandish claims.  I'm sharing with you a true story, from a person I trust, and making interpolating correlations to spiritual life.  I'm really not sure what is so outlandish, unless it is outlandish for you. 

If you also take your statement literally, you also do not have knowledge about the demonic aspects of Karate, so that puts us at about the same playing field.  We are both talking about something we both don't have personal knowledge of.  You and I also have only seen the positives of Karate.  Hence why this is a conversation & dialogue. 
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« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2011, 06:18:03 AM »

3 things:
1. it was 'black smokey objects' coming out of someone's mouth.
it was misquoted by someone.
this would be no stranger than sweet incense coming from a deceased saint (it has been known to happen) or a miracle of God's supernatural healing (it happens).
2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.
3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?
 Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: September 02, 2011, 06:22:13 AM »

A strip mall is a bunch of shops lined up in a long row, as opposed to a mall which is several floors of shops in one big building.
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« Reply #128 on: September 02, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »

Several things I have read here appear to be from people who clearly have little or no experience with Karate. I would suggest reserving extreme comments and outlandish claims to those things of which you know more about.   

Thank you and God Bless

I'm not making outlandish claims.  I'm sharing with you a true story, from a person I trust, and making interpolating correlations to spiritual life.  I'm really not sure what is so outlandish, unless it is outlandish for you.

This is not accurate. You may trust the person, but you have no idea if the story he told you was true. Please note that I am not accusing him of lying. He could have been mistaken or incorrect for some other reason.
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« Reply #129 on: September 02, 2011, 12:04:24 PM »

Im not going to say if the person is lying, mistaken or whatever. I wasn't there. All I know is that there could have been another trigger for these issues and he placed the blame on the wrong thing maybe?

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« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2011, 12:19:12 PM »

After all the explanations this young man gave me (and other people) and the details he went into with conversations he'd had with some of the highest members of Hinduism, etc. in the Orient, it was truly unbelievable how much demonology permeates through these things & actions. 
"Hinduism" is a very vague term. I'm curious as to what tradition these "highest members of Hinduism" claim allegiance.

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« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2011, 12:19:35 PM »

3 things:
1. it was 'black smokey objects' coming out of someone's mouth.
it was misquoted by someone.
this would be no stranger than sweet incense coming from a deceased saint (it has been known to happen) or a miracle of God's supernatural healing (it happens).
2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.
3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?
 Smiley


I will address the last two points:

2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.

Have you seen the TV show "Jersey Shore"?




3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?

Yes, yes it is. Naked shopping . God Bless America

« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 12:20:12 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2011, 12:24:03 PM »

3 things:
1. it was 'black smokey objects' coming out of someone's mouth.
it was misquoted by someone.
this would be no stranger than sweet incense coming from a deceased saint (it has been known to happen) or a miracle of God's supernatural healing (it happens).
2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.
3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?
 Smiley


I will address the last two points:

2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.

Have you seen the TV show "Jersey Shore"?

I don't think Dhalsim looks horrible or scary.  Huh

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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2011, 02:01:42 PM »

« Last Edit: Today at 01:02:04 PM by Asteriktos »
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 02:02:20 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2011, 03:37:48 PM »

After all the explanations this young man gave me (and other people) and the details he went into with conversations he'd had with some of the highest members of Hinduism, etc. in the Orient, it was truly unbelievable how much demonology permeates through these things & actions. 
"Hinduism" is a very vague term. I'm curious as to what tradition these "highest members of Hinduism" claim allegiance.



I'd be curious, as well. "Hinduism" is a catch-all term for the native religions of India, and it's not monolithic, with a hierarchical clergy, like Christianity is.Saying "the highest members of Hinduism" is about as specific as saying "the highest members of the Balkans".  People just believe and practice whatever their families do. A Brahmin in rural Gujurat, who's never in his life had to lift anything heavier than a spoon, and can recite the Vedas backwards and forwards, and the dalit sweeper who scoops out the Brahmin's latrine with her bare hands, and goes home to light a lamp in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary that her great-aunt found on a road 50 years ago, are equally Hindu, and will equally be able to inform you about Hinduism.
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