Topic: Demonic Aspects of Karate, etc.

[serb1389]

There is a real danger.  For you to think that there isn't, is exactly why we started this topic.  Excercizing?  Opening yourself to new positions that your body was not supposed to go into?  Feeling like you released all this tension in your body?

How do you know what positions the human body is "supposed" to go into?

Releasing tension is part of exercise. I don't think the Fathers despised exercise. It seems, Father, that you are projecting the qualities of religious Hindu Yoga onto all martial arts.

I can tell you this isn't one of them.  http://images.meredith.com/fitness/images/2009/06/ss_shot_7-029.jpg

there are plenty of other ways to release tension.  How about starting with prayer as the first one.  I think that any other substitute is a poor one.  I'm not saying don't get regular exercise, I just don't think that Yoga is the way to go.  There's plenty of other programs out there that arn't opening you to things that are directly connected to pagan spirituality. 

[serb1389]

All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.

One question:  What about brick?  Cement?

Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

thanks for the responses.  I was genuinely curious. 

[serb1389]

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.

Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

[serb1389]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

[serb1389]

All the classic Olympic Sports used to have religious significance given to them, but we don't worry about such things today.

in what way and towards what purpose.  I think exploring this may be critical to the discussion. 

[samkim]

Karate is not demonic.

[Marc1152]

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.

Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

[Asteriktos]

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

This expert is either lying, delusional, or naive. Probably all three.

[Shlomlokh]

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

This expert is either lying, delusional, or naive. Probably all three.

Yeah, it's true. They'd take you to Japan!

In Christ,
Andrew

[Schultz]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

I'm sorry, Father, but this sounds like something out of a Chick tract.

[FormerReformer]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

I'm sorry, Father, but this sounds like something out of a Chick tract.

Oh, good, I'm not the only one who thinks so. I'm thinking "Dark Dungeons" and the Chick claims about RPGs in specific.

[orthonorm]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

[NicholasMyra]

Father, you've hit onto something important. There are indeed wackos who want to scam you out of your money and engage in cult practices in the name of martial arts. A lot of this is psychological, a lot of it is "other", sure. But legitimate, functional martial arts don't resort to weird cult practices very often. They don't have to.

Your local Oom Yung Do, "Shaolin Kempo Karate" or other nonsense martial arts school probably has wacky cultic aspects; among the most dangerous is the brainwashing that students undergo which makes them believe that the bodies of their opponents are fragile and theirs are not, and that they have fighting abilities that they do not.

[Sauron]

Wing Chun really isn't that much about inner strength as much as it is about using minimal strength and energy. Because a Wing Chun practitioner is relaxed during the fight by using speed and minimal movements he can easily over power a boxer or a BJJ practitioner. Its complicated to explain, but even when punching, blocking, and kicking the practitioner is relaxed so their opponent tires out quickly when they resort to "f*cking sh*t up."

This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.

[Marc1152]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Yes, much of it is definitely sport. In Japan Kendo (Sword play) is similar to an American Wrestling Team and is taught in many schools.

I was taught a very serious form of Tai Kwan Do with the expressed purpose of fighting police during riots. Things of course eased up and later my lessons were in a more regular setting but still I found Korean Karate to have the killer aspect you mentioned.

That is why I avoided  it and went with a different style when my little boy was ready for Karate. I told the Teacher that I dont have any expectation of him ever joining the French Foreign Legion or Delta Force, I just want him to learn discipline and get his mind and body in sync. Knowing some self defense got him out of a few scraps and tussles through the years but that is actually secondary.

Like my son, I have no ability to hit, throw or catch a ball very well. But we are both wired in a way that allows us to see a movement, a dance step or a karate form and learn it quickly. It is a sport that suits many people well... I have no fear of demonic possession

[vamrat]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Yes, much of it is definitely sport. In Japan Kendo (Sword play) is similar to an American Wrestling Team and is taught in many schools.

I was taught a very serious form of Tai Kwan Do with the expressed purpose of fighting police during riots. Things of course eased up and later my lessons were in a more regular setting but still I found Korean Karate to have the killer aspect you mentioned.

That is why I avoided  it and went with a different style when my little boy was ready for Karate. I told the Teacher that I dont have any expectation of him ever joining the French Foreign Legion or Delta Force, I just want him to learn discipline and get his mind and body in sync. Knowing some self defense got him out of a few scraps and tussles through the years but that is actually secondary.

Like my son, I have no ability to hit, throw or catch a ball very well. But we are both wired in a way that allows us to see a movement, a dance step or a karate form and learn it quickly. It is a sport that suits many people well... I have no fear of demonic possession

Tae Kwon Do can be very effective, seeing as it was a unification of the various Korean martial arts to be taught to the ROK Army.

[Marc1152]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Yes, much of it is definitely sport. In Japan Kendo (Sword play) is similar to an American Wrestling Team and is taught in many schools.

I was taught a very serious form of Tai Kwan Do with the expressed purpose of fighting police during riots. Things of course eased up and later my lessons were in a more regular setting but still I found Korean Karate to have the killer aspect you mentioned.

That is why I avoided  it and went with a different style when my little boy was ready for Karate. I told the Teacher that I dont have any expectation of him ever joining the French Foreign Legion or Delta Force, I just want him to learn discipline and get his mind and body in sync. Knowing some self defense got him out of a few scraps and tussles through the years but that is actually secondary.

Like my son, I have no ability to hit, throw or catch a ball very well. But we are both wired in a way that allows us to see a movement, a dance step or a karate form and learn it quickly. It is a sport that suits many people well... I have no fear of demonic possession

Tae Kwon Do can be very effective, seeing as it was a unification of the various Korean martial arts to be taught to the ROK Army.

Definitely. I used to kid him about his style and tell him how "Pretty" it was, even though I am the one who chose it for him "Okinawan Goju Ryu"

Tae Kwon Do is very direct with no extra movements.

The thing about Goju Ryu is that they get up really close when they fight you and use fists far more than I would. We stand back and kick you to death.

[primuspilus]

This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.

Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

[Sauron]

This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.

Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency. What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

[primuspilus]

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency.

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

No, what I mean is that in Gung Fu a great number of attacks are designed to strike very vital points like eyes, throat, groin, etc. because these would be illegal it would diminish Gung-Fu's effectiveness. It would be the same as saying you could use Muay Thai but you cant throw elbows.

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

The same could be said for anything. If Im BJJ and I cant go to the ground...oops, or im a MT fighter and I cant use my knees or elbows, oops or if I'm Wolverine and I cant use my claws, oops. Totally Non sequitur

PP

[dcommini]

This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.

Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency. What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

Firstly, Wing Chun is a style that is designed to kill, a person throws an attack and the WC practitioner just reacts with what feels natural, in an octagon that could mean killing ones opponent - especially from a student who is not well trained enough to move a kill shot to an injure shot (such as a punch to the chin = knock out, as opposed to the same move but lower being a punch to the adams apple = death - very little variance in location, but big variance in outcome).

Secondly, many WC schools do not teach aspects of other arts, or even the full aspect of WC. For instance, WC is full of some anti-grappling moves, but many schools do not touch on this. This is a problem, not just with WC but with many traditional schools.

Thirdly, I have trained by actually fighting in WC. I have gone cross hands full speed with a third level black sash when I was a green sash (which is quite intense) and got a few bruises to show for it. I got a cracked rib when I did not properly block a kick that was thrown my way. I put gloves on and sparred fully against people many levels above myself. I also pitted my WC skills against the skills of BJJ practitioners (some times they won, some times I won); I also injured my shoulder when learning BJJ. If one can find the right instructor one can learn WC as a full contact style (notice I did not say sport).

Fourthly, I have used my WC skills to supplement other MAs that I have studied, such as BJJ, Judo, Akido, MT, Kali, and Army Combatives and vice versa. I have surprised many a person when I get out of submissions using what i know of WC, or when I block their takedowns, or when I get in the mounted position and proceed to decimate their face with a simple lap-da followed by a series of chain punches.

Believe me when I say that WC is a very versatile style and can add lethality to any other style, one only needs to find the right instructor, and luckily my instructors are well versed in many MAs so they know how to adapt WC to the other fighting styles.

Now, I am not saying that WC is the best style ever, nor would I ever say that one style is better than the other, it all depends on the skill of the practitioner. I am saying that WC is not useless, even when pitted against other styles, based on my own experience and the experience of others that I know.

Any way, thats all I have to say about this right now, its getting late here in Kuwait and I have an early day tomorrow.

[Sauron]

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency.

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

No, what I mean is that in Gung Fu a great number of attacks are designed to strike very vital points like eyes, throat, groin, etc. because these would be illegal it would diminish Gung-Fu's effectiveness. It would be the same as saying you could use Muay Thai but you cant throw elbows.

This is totally unresponsive to the point that traditional martial arts generally have no training whatsoever against resisting opponents. Do you think there is a way to get good at fighting without ever fighting?

But, I will entertain your objection. Let's just say the TMA guys got to do everything they wanted. Here's what would happen:

Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage.

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

The same could be said for anything. If Im BJJ and I cant go to the ground...oops, or im a MT fighter and I cant use my knees or elbows, oops or if I'm Wolverine and I cant use my claws, oops. Totally Non sequitur

PP

How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."

[Sauron]

This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.

Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency. What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

Firstly, Wing Chun is a style that is designed to kill, a person throws an attack and the WC practitioner just reacts with what feels natural, in an octagon that could mean killing ones opponent - especially from a student who is not well trained enough to move a kill shot to an injure shot (such as a punch to the chin = knock out, as opposed to the same move but lower being a punch to the adams apple = death - very little variance in location, but big variance in outcome).

First, pretty much every TMA in the world says that it is "design to kill", so you need to do better than that.

Thirdly, I have trained by actually fighting in WC. I have gone cross hands full speed with a third level black sash when I was a green sash (which is quite intense) and got a few bruises to show for it. I got a cracked rib when I did not properly block a kick that was thrown my way. I put gloves on and sparred fully against people many levels above myself. I also pitted my WC skills against the skills of BJJ practitioners (some times they won, some times I won); I also injured my shoulder when learning BJJ. If one can find the right instructor one can learn WC as a full contact style (notice I did not say sport).

I do not consider sticking hands and slapping pak saos while standing in line formation to be fighting a resisting opponent.

Now, I am not saying that WC is the best style ever, nor would I ever say that one style is better than the other, it all depends on the skill of the practitioner. I am saying that WC is not useless, even when pitted against other styles, based on my own experience and the experience of others that I know.

I am not saying it is worthless, but one must be able to answer why we don't see it in the octagon. (please don't say because it is so deadly. That would be too comical)

[primuspilus]

How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."

I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

[vamrat]

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

[primuspilus]

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

 

[Sauron]

How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."

I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

I asked why we don't see very much TMA in MMA, and you essentially said that it is because TMA is teh deadly. Do you understand why that is not very persuasive?

[Sauron]

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

I prefer my Kimber 1911, although I am thinking of adding a J-frame to my collection. I live in a warm climate and I often end up leaving the .45 in the glove box because of its size.

[primuspilus]

How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."

I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

I asked why we don't see very much TMA in MMA, and you essentially said that it is because TMA is teh deadly. Do you understand why that is not very persuasive?

Ah good, then I assume you can quote where I said you dont see it because it's deadly right?


PP

[vamrat]

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

I prefer my Kimber 1911, although I am thinking of adding a J-frame to my collection. I live in a warm climate and I often end up leaving the .45 in the glove box because of its size.

J-Frame gets my recommendation.  Best firearm purchase I have ever made.  My buddy scorned it for sometime, deciding to buy a short barreled 1911 in 9mm.  POS.  He has since bought a J-Frame and loves it.

I've never had luck with Kimbers.  I have never known someone who's had them jam on them, but I have fired two different ones and have had them jam on three occasions.  Kimbers don't like me. 

[vamrat]

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?

If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

This really is the crux of the matter. 

1- A martial art is absolutely useless if you do not have the mind set to kill.  I would put my money on a ballerina with the will to kill over a black belt without it.  Without the mindset any martial art is basically just dancing.

2- If you do have the mindset to kill you open yourself up to sin. Killing is evil.  Sometimes it is "less evil" than allowing harm to come to an innocent, but nonetheless.  If Adam would not have done it in Eden or Christ in Jerusalem then it is the clear manifestation of out sins.

3- As for the OP, I agree with him to a degree.  Martial arts can get in the way of prayer.  So can soap operas or any other activity.  If something, anything, keeps you further from God then it is demonically influenced.  But you can do these things without harm to your soul.  No sport or activity is intrinsically evil. 

Except maybe golf.

[Sauron]

How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."

I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:

What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

I asked why we don't see very much TMA in MMA, and you essentially said that it is because TMA is teh deadly. Do you understand why that is not very persuasive?

Ah good, then I assume you can quote where I said you dont see it because it's deadly right?


PP

Mercy me. "teh deadly" is an expression popular at the bullshido forum. I wasn't literally saying that you claimed the techniques are deadly.

The point is, the claim is that TMA doesn't work in MMA because they can't use groin strikes and eye gouges et cetera. Fine. Let them all in and guess what? The BJJ and other MMA fighters will get to use those same techniques, too, so it is a wash. Like I said, it would go like this:

Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage.

You've not responded to that point, by the way.

[primuspilus]

cy me. "teh deadly" is an expression popular at the bullshido forum. I wasn't literally saying that you claimed the techniques are deadly.

Im not a member of that forum so.......

The point is, the claim is that TMA doesn't work in MMA because they can't use groin strikes and eye gouges et cetera. Fine. Let them all in and guess what? The BJJ and other MMA fighters will get to use those same techniques, too, so it is a wash.

They can come in. Its not like the forms are illegal, just some of the techniques.

Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

The thing is, none of this is demonic 


PP

[NicholasMyra]

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

But a lot fewer Eastern practitioners train in an alive manner, PP. That's the main difference.

[primuspilus]

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

But a lot fewer Eastern practitioners train in an alive manner, PP. That's the main difference.

Also true.

PP

[Sauron]

The point is, the claim is that TMA doesn't work in MMA because they can't use groin strikes and eye gouges et cetera. Fine. Let them all in and guess what? The BJJ and other MMA fighters will get to use those same techniques, too, so it is a wash.

They can come in. Its not like the forms are illegal, just some of the techniques.

When I said, "let them come in", I meant those particular techniques.

Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash.

The thing is, none of this is demonic 

On this point we are in perfect agreement.

I will now digress for a bit, although it is apropos to this discussion. I must say, perhaps it is because the internet brings out the "best" in people, but as an inquirer, the most startling thing to me has been how many people of this forum have been so ready to see evil spirits at every turn. Potential demonic things I have seen discussed here include:

* playing cards
* Buddhist statues
* eating in an Indian restaurant

Now we can add "strip mall karate" to that list. 

[primuspilus]

When I said, "let them come in", I meant those particular techniques.

Sry, I misunderstood.

But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash

I dont think it's a thin argument but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

On this point we are in perfect agreement.

I will now digress for a bit, although it is apropos to this discussion. I must say, perhaps it is because the internet brings out the "best" in people, but as an inquirer, the most startling thing to me has been how many people of this forum have been so ready to see evil spirits at every turn. Potential demonic things I have seen discussed here include:

* playing cards
* Buddhist statues
* eating in an Indian restaurant

Now we can add "strip mall karate" to that list

You forgot the papacy, video games, not calling Jesus by his hebrew name, and I think horror flicks are in there somewhere.....

However I wouldn't say "most people" as IMHO most folks here are reasonable, even-minded, nice folks. Of course any one may be an axe murderer IRL I like the folks here a great deal from what I have gotten to know of them.


PP

[NicholasMyra]

But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash

I dont think it's a thin argument but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

If you don't actively train eye-gouging, fish hooking, hair pulling, groin-stealing "deadly" moves in an alive manner (which no sane person would) then you are no more equipped to do them under pressure than an MMA guy is. That's kinda the point.

[orthonorm]

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

But a lot fewer Eastern practitioners train in an alive manner, PP. That's the main difference.

No one trains "live". Live is when you ain't training. Vamrat is amplifying my point. I am a lettered and relatively accomplished fighter in real MA: wrestling and boxing. Real athletes as kids pursue real sport to participate against real athletes. You get money for college, girls, etc.

Nerds spend time doing TKD, JKD, WC whatever. Guys with self-esteem issues play MMA (the worst of all worlds) and put the EQ decals all over their cars. You pick any panjama wearing 16 year old and I will pick a kid the same age and weight in a decent HS wrestling program and show him how to throw a jab and lead hook and feel what it is like to nearly get knocked out and keep going. They will eat any of the pajama wearers alive. Won't last 30 seconds. This is just a matter of athleticism.

Again to Vamrat making my point. The decision and capacity to easily and effortlessly take another life is what being "martial" is. And the question is whether that is a sin.

I know that it is, in the ontological sense. Knowing that you can extinguish human life in a phenomenological manner changes who you are. You might not notice it when you have to be on guard or think you do 24 / 7, but when things cool down, those "skills" radically separate you from others who just don't have that knowledge of evil. Whether those wounds heal over time, if they do, they do slowly if at all.

Nearly everyone "studying martial arts" will never use it. And if they have to against some who has gone through the above it won't matter. You will just get punished more.

As Vamrat pointed out, I'll place my money on guy or girl off the street with no remorse over whatever goofball MA nerd you can find.

There really ain't nothing to this discussion, because if any starts arguing about styles and the like, they have no idea what they are talking about.

My point and Vamrat's are the only that need addressing.

If you are a relatively sane person, do you want to become someone who is comfortable with killing someone else? I pray you all opt out, from the tenor of the posts I doubt any are too real here, thank God. And realize that your MA amounts to jazzercize and enjoy it, but don't indulge yourself in a fantasy world.

[orthonorm]

But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash

I dont think it's a thin argument but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

If you don't actively train eye-gouging, fish hooking, hair pulling, groin-stealing "deadly" moves in an alive manner (which no sane person would) then you are no more equipped to do them under pressure than an MMA guy is. That's kinda the point.

This is my point. And more people do than you know. You have to. It ain't training. It is living.

Again, if you don't know what it like to feel human flesh between your teeth or an eye being "popped" or pushed it out its socket, you ain't really had to fight for much more than pride or fantasy. Of course these are just some examples.

Bottom line: Father is right for all the wrong reasons.

[NicholasMyra]

No one trains "live".

"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

[NicholasMyra]

you ain't really had to fight for much more than pride or fantasy.

Hey! That's why I started doing martial arts.

[Iconodule]

Say what you will about it, the idea of martial arts as a form of exercise/ meditation/ self-discipline training was not born in American strip-malls, but in Buddhist and Daoist monasteries. Yes, we all know about the Shaolin and Wu Dang monks using their skills in actual combat but most of the time that wasn't happening.

[akimori makoto]

Orthonorm, the opposite can also be the case.

Knowing that I have absolutely no capacity to kill and could probably lose a fight to a girl, I am constantly on guard about other people, judging them, avoiding eye contact, hoping they don't come near me ...

Sometimes I think if everyone was a little bit afraid of me, I could have the freedom to love them a bit more, knowing their capacity to hurt me is diminished.

I wonder which mindset is worse.

[akimori makoto]

I've heard that, in Japanese, the distinction between "jutsu" and "do" is the distinction between martial-arts-as-sport and martial-arts-as-way-of-life.

"Jutsu" means technique, whereas "do" means "way (of)".

Hence:

Ju-jutsu: gentle technique; and
Ju-do: gentle way.

I don't think this same distinction exists in Chinese, but it may in Korean.

As has been said above, in Japan, most of the traditional martial arts are practised in the same way one practises guitar or soccer.