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Author Topic: Demonic Aspects of Karate, etc.  (Read 6416 times) Average Rating: 0
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serb1389
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« on: August 29, 2011, 06:36:07 PM »

This is based on a thread discussion here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39214.msg629700.html#msg629700

Here are some of the highlights, to begin the discussion. 

How do you know that martial arts is a doorway to demonic activity?

because i've met people who have lived through it.  And I believe them. 

Plus the spiritual lessons of the orthodox church are very clear about this.  If you open yourself, but don't fill yourself with Christ, in ANY WAY, including stretching, kicking, etc. then you are opening yourself to demons. bottom line. 
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 06:44:03 PM »

Similar arguments can be made (and refuted) for rock music, painting, sports, etc.

There are so many kinds of martial arts, from so many different places, that it is simply impossible to make a generalization like this from the experience of a few people you've met.
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 06:47:36 PM »

This is based on a thread discussion here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39214.msg629700.html#msg629700

Here are some of the highlights, to begin the discussion.  

How do you know that martial arts is a doorway to demonic activity?

because i've met people who have lived through it.  And I believe them.  

Plus the spiritual lessons of the orthodox church are very clear about this.  If you open yourself, but don't fill yourself with Christ, in ANY WAY, including stretching, kicking, etc. then you are opening yourself to demons. bottom line.  

I always wonder on how much people trust the power of the Devil. So many people go to Church and because they don't believe, don't understand or are dowright lazy, are not touched by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But if you slip on a pentagram and fall on the floor that's veritable hell-condemning Satan worship. C'mon you can't even be a lapsed satanist?

Quote
- Billy, why you don't want to kick the panda?

- Oh, mom, c'mon. You and daddy keep taking me to that Black Mass but it's booooooooring... besides, I think I actually like cute animals!

- Morning star! Zebbie, come over here and listen what your son is saying!

- What's the trouble, what's going on here?

- Billy won't kick the panda.

- And I won't channel the Elder Gods anymore. It makes me feel dizzy. I will keep the inverted pentagram you gave me out of respect, but my heart is elsewhere. I want to be a wild animals veterinary and heal them instead of gutting them alive.

- Where have we failed you, Billy?

The devil is not more powerful than God. Most people who go to martial arts, yoga, etc, couldn't care less about the esoteric mambo-jambo that *some* instructors teach. I concede there is real danger if the person actually tries to follow said mambo-jambo, but for most people it's just exercizing in a way more meaningful than going to the gym.

In fact, my judo and karate teachers in my teen years taught the kids to be moral, ethical, to avoid fighting, to respect our friends and even, as my karate sensei told us back then, that we should respect our competitor, even when we lost, and not thing of revenge, nor get angry. In fact, we should still be friends, still love each other and be happy for *his* victory.  How many people out there tell you that you should be happy even for those who are winners over you being the loser because it still your friend? Had he said that the other person is my brother would that have made that much difference? I don't think so, and it strikes me as very Christian even today.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 06:55:19 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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serb1389
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 06:56:10 PM »

Similar arguments can be made (and refuted) for rock music, painting, sports, etc.

There are so many kinds of martial arts, from so many different places, that it is simply impossible to make a generalization like this from the experience of a few people you've met.

it's not a generalization.  Unless we are defining that word differently. 

Rather, it is a core spiritual truth.  Pseudo-Dionysios in his ascetical homilies said that when you fast you take something away from your life, but you fill yourself with christ.  to do otherwise is to leave yourself open to be filled with the devil. 

I would wager to say this is true in all aspects of life.  Should we shut down our TV's and everything else we do?  I'd like to answer that question by posing a proposition:  how much more filled with the blessings of God would our lives be if we did it his way. 

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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 07:08:30 PM »

This is based on a thread discussion here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39214.msg629700.html#msg629700

Here are some of the highlights, to begin the discussion.  

How do you know that martial arts is a doorway to demonic activity?

because i've met people who have lived through it.  And I believe them.  

Plus the spiritual lessons of the orthodox church are very clear about this.  If you open yourself, but don't fill yourself with Christ, in ANY WAY, including stretching, kicking, etc. then you are opening yourself to demons. bottom line.  

I always wonder on how much people trust the power of the Devil. So many people go to Church and because they don't believe, don't understand or are dowright lazy, are not touched by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But if you slip on a pentagram and fall on the floor that's veritable hell-condemning Satan worship. C'mon you can't even be a lapsed satanist?

The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO.  

Quote
Quote
- Billy, why you don't want to kick the panda?

- Oh, mom, c'mon. You and daddy keep taking me to that Black Mass but it's booooooooring... besides, I think I actually like cute animals!

- Morning star! Zebbie, come over here and listen what your son is saying!

- What's the trouble, what's going on here?

- Billy won't kick the panda.

- And I won't channel the Elder Gods anymore. It makes me feel dizzy. I will keep the inverted pentagram you gave me out of respect, but my heart is elsewhere. I want to be a wild animals veterinary and heal them instead of gutting them alive.

- Where have we failed you, Billy?

The devil is not more powerful than God. Most people who go to martial arts, yoga, etc, couldn't care less about the esoteric mambo-jambo that *some* instructors teach. I concede there is real danger if the person actually tries to follow said mambo-jambo, but for most people it's just exercizing in a way more meaningful than going to the gym.

You are right about the first part.  I will say though as I said above, he has only whatever power we give him.  

There is a real danger.  For you to think that there isn't, is exactly why we started this topic.  Excercizing?  Opening yourself to new positions that your body was not supposed to go into?  Feeling like you released all this tension in your body?  Don't the desert fathers talk ad nausea about how some demons will leave you but others will come to take their place & they play off of each other in this game?  These are not things that should just be brushed off b/c they seem outlandish.  This is the unseen warfare we SHOULD be discussing.  

Quote
In fact, my judo and karate teachers in my teen years taught the kids to be moral, ethical, to avoid fighting, to respect our friends and even, as my karate sensei told us back then, that we should respect our competitor, even when we lost, and not thing of revenge, nor get angry. In fact, we should still be friends, still love each other and be happy for *his* victory.  How many people out there tell you that you should be happy even for those who are winners over you being the loser because it still your friend? Had he said that the other person is my brother would that have made that much difference? I don't think so, and it strikes me as very Christian even today.

While I am glad that you were able to walk away with great friendships, I think those were formed out of who you were before the sensei, not necessarily during or after.  

I would also like to point out that even the devil can appear as a bright light, showing you the way.  We should always be careful who we put our trust in, and why.  
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serb1389
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 07:08:53 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.

Sure.  He also would not have been ok to be their disciples. 
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 07:12:28 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.

Sure.  He also would not have been ok to be their disciples. 

St. Basil studied under pagan philosophers like many other educated Christian men of the time, including St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 07:26:43 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.

Sure.  He also would not have been ok to be their disciples. 

St. Basil studied under pagan philosophers like many other educated Christian men of the time, including St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian.

Right.  2 things:

1.  discipleship doesn't always entail participation.  also, hearing it doesn't mean they did it or lived it.  In the cases you have above, of course, they did use the rhetorical & philosophical skills they used.  However, the former point I made in this sentence should still be said for the general conversation.

2.  Philosophy and rhetoric, even based on pagan principles, is still different in my mind than physically opening yourself to unwarranted acts.

ON top of all this, what St. Basil, et al. did was CHRISTIANIZE the rhetoric & used it to the Glory of God.  None of that happening in any kind of karate or pilates that I know of. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 11:05:35 AM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 11:59:13 AM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.

[rant]
please tell me that you did not just call wing chun useless. wing chun, when taught and applied properly, is one of the most versatile styles there is; for example, i have personally witnessed wing chun defeat boxing, taekwondo, karate, and jiujitsu. krav maga actually utilizes wing chun, muy thai and kali to be one of the deadliest martial arts around, but kali is already very similar to wing chun and muy thai adds some kicks (everything else such as elbow and knee use is already found in wing chun) to an otherwise short range system so a krav maga practitioner and a wing chun practitioner would be on equal ground.
Oh, and wing chun is a style of kung fu.

Also, channeling ones inner qi is not a long, drawn out process, and can be done effortlessly during a fight, causing no distraction...
[/rant]

other than that I agree with your post.

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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 12:08:56 PM »

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please tell me that you did not just call wing chun useless. wing chun, when taught and applied properly, is one of the most versatile styles there is; for example, i have personally witnessed wing chun defeat boxing, taekwondo, karate, and jiujitsu. krav maga actually utilizes wing chun, muy thai and kali to be one of the deadliest martial arts around, but kali is already very similar to wing chun and muy thai adds some kicks (everything else such as elbow and knee use is already found in wing chun) to an otherwise short range system so a krav maga practitioner and a wing chun practitioner would be on equal ground.

Vids, or it didn't happen.

Quote
Also, channeling ones inner qi is not a long, drawn out process, and can be done effortlessly during a fight, causing no distraction...

I find eating a lot of beans helps me channel my inner qi. Those around me tend to object, though.
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 12:09:14 PM »

While I would not think it beneficial for an Orthodox Christian to participate in martial arts in general, I do have to admit the utmost respect for the Orthodox mixed martial artist Fedor Emelienenko.  I do not follow sports of any kind, but I have the greatest respect for both Fedor and the NFL player Troy Polamalu.  Observing how they conduct themselves in competition, in interviews, and outside of competition has led me to consider that even in these aggressive and combative sports a man can conduct himself as pious Orthodox Christian.  

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10 February 2010, 17:26
World champion in mixed martial arts observes fast, listens to church music and reads about Orthodox ascetics

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6922

Moscow, February 10, Interfax - World champion in mixed martial arts Fedor Yemelyanenko confessed he loved to listen to church music and read Orthodox literature.

“I’ve read a book not long ago and I liked it very much, it was Ivan Shmelev’s The Summer of the Lord. Now I’m reading about great Orthodox ascetics of the 20th century,” the renowned fighter was quoted as saying by the Valetudo.ru.

The fighter also said he used Internet only to learn something new about life of saints and liked to eat when there was no fast. “Now it’s Maslenitsa and next week is a strict fast.”

According to the sportsman, he spares no effort to win in his profession and hopes for God’s will. He says he is happy and mentions that lives “with God in my soul,” and goes to the Church.

Yemelyanenko also stated he was concerned with ideals of modern-day youth.

“There are real, nonfictional heroes like Alexander Nevsky, Dimitry Donskoy, Peresvet. They are great warriors and we have to be equal to them. They are not invented by cinematograph, they are heroes who proved their heroism by their lives. They gave their lives for the honor of Russia,” the world champion stressed.

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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 12:26:21 PM »

Quote
please tell me that you did not just call wing chun useless. wing chun, when taught and applied properly, is one of the most versatile styles there is; for example, i have personally witnessed wing chun defeat boxing, taekwondo, karate, and jiujitsu. krav maga actually utilizes wing chun, muy thai and kali to be one of the deadliest martial arts around, but kali is already very similar to wing chun and muy thai adds some kicks (everything else such as elbow and knee use is already found in wing chun) to an otherwise short range system so a krav maga practitioner and a wing chun practitioner would be on equal ground.

Vids, or it didn't happen.

Quote
Also, channeling ones inner qi is not a long, drawn out process, and can be done effortlessly during a fight, causing no distraction...

I find eating a lot of beans helps me channel my inner qi. Those around me tend to object, though.

So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed? Roll Eyes So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

You might try a video search of rusty gray vs david deaton, don't know if that willl turn anything up though
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »

So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed? Roll Eyes

Your word is as good as gold, as far as I'm concerned, soldier.
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 12:51:42 PM »

Quote
So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed?  So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

Dude, I don't know you. To me, you're just some guy on the internet. I'm not a martial arts practitioner of any sort, but just a powerlifter, which community overlaps quite a bit with MMA. I'm not saying the fights you say you saw never happened, but I've seen quite a bit of evidence for the effectiveness of BJJ (and others), and absolutely none for wing chun, and the word of some guy on the internet isn't really that compelling of evidence.
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 12:59:03 PM »

boxing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  mma > everything else

Though now that I think about it, there may very well be some demonic activity in boxing (Mike Tyson?)
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 01:07:31 PM »

Quote
So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed?  So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

Dude, I don't know you. To me, you're just some guy on the internet. I'm not a martial arts practitioner of any sort, but just a powerlifter, which community overlaps quite a bit with MMA. I'm not saying the fights you say you saw never happened, but I've seen quite a bit of evidence for the effectiveness of BJJ (and others), and absolutely none for wing chun, and the word of some guy on the internet isn't really that compelling of evidence.

I should clarify one thing -- I have no problem believing that a wing chun practitioner could defeat a practitioner of taekwondo or karate. (I listed them all in the "useless" category earlier.) It's boxing or BJJ that I have trouble believing. When it comes to fighting, cultivated inner strength always loses to plain old f*cking sh*t up.
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 01:16:47 PM »

So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed? Roll Eyes

Your word is as good as gold, as far as I'm concerned, soldier.

Thank you.

Quote
So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed?  So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

Dude, I don't know you. To me, you're just some guy on the internet. I'm not a martial arts practitioner of any sort, but just a powerlifter, which community overlaps quite a bit with MMA. I'm not saying the fights you say you saw never happened, but I've seen quite a bit of evidence for the effectiveness of BJJ (and others), and absolutely none for wing chun, and the word of some guy on the internet isn't really that compelling of evidence.

I completely understand, and I wish I did have video to show. I believe that every martial art is effective if taught well, but it seems that when the Eastern arts moved West they lost a lot of substance, this is true even in Wing Chun where there is a difference in Hong Kong style Wing Chun (which is really watered down) and the style I practice. An art's efficiency is multiplied if you have an instructor who is knowledgeable in different art forms and can thus use his own from against another form. In my own classes we were taught Wing Chun, how to use certain styles such as Muy Thai and Kali with Wing Chun, and how to defeat other styles like boxing, Karate, Taekwondo, and Jui-Jitsu.  But if you are not a practitioner then you really can not judge certain art forms against others; I have personally studied the forms I mentioned above and have found Wing Chun to be the most effective and adaptive.

I should clarify one thing -- I have no problem believing that a wing chun practitioner could defeat a practitioner of taekwondo or karate. (I listed them all in the "useless" category earlier.) It's boxing or BJJ that I have trouble believing. When it comes to fighting, cultivated inner strength always loses to plain old f*cking sh*t up.

Wing Chun really isn't that much about inner strength as much as it is about using minimal strength and energy. Because a Wing Chun practitioner is relaxed during the fight by using speed and minimal movements he can easily over power a boxer or a BJJ practitioner. Its complicated to explain, but even when punching, blocking, and kicking the practitioner is relaxed so their opponent tires out quickly when they resort to "f*cking sh*t up."

But enough of our tangent, let's not derail the thread any further.
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 01:44:01 PM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.

How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it. 

As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that. 

As for the tangents, to be honest, they are interesting & perhaps even informative b/c they do show that there may not be a "catch-all" type of approach that is the best in terms of this subject, but should be a little more individualistic with an approach looking at exactly what is going on, in what way, towards what purpose, etc. 
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« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2011, 01:56:56 PM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.

How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it. 


Ever notice that when a board is being broken it's always down the middle? The support from the two sides (whether it be by hand or some form of platform) means that the weakest part of the board (or block) is going to be dead center. It's simply a matter of some force directed against the center, and learning the physics of the body to properly apply that force.

Quote
As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that. 

As for the tangents, to be honest, they are interesting & perhaps even informative b/c they do show that there may not be a "catch-all" type of approach that is the best in terms of this subject, but should be a little more individualistic with an approach looking at exactly what is going on, in what way, towards what purpose, etc. 

I don't think there are two "branches" martial arts, such as Eastern and Western- though many of the martial arts in the Far East are descendants of kung fu (and if the legends are to be believed Indian boxing). It's more that every culture that has warriors has developed it's own form of style for fighting based on whatever types of weapons were in vogue at the time of the "art's" development. So there are English martial arts- Marquis of Queensbury boxing, European martial arts such as fencing, the chivalric martial arts a knight in full armor would have used, etc.

Although I don't know if I would consider the ancient Grecian wrestling to be a martial art, so much as foreplay, at least by the time of Socrates  Cheesy
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« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2011, 01:58:15 PM »

Quote
How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it.

Wood and bricks are a lot weaker, and your hands a lot stronger, than you would think. It's the same principle as hitting it with a hammer -- a sufficiently large force concentrated in a sufficiently small area. No different than breaking a window with a pebble. See here.

Quote
As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that.

It's not so much that there are two branches, but that in the east, martial arts tended to get mixed up with religion and philosophy, and to be seen as a way to enlightenment, and in the west, they stayed purely in the secular realm, and were seen as a way to win a fight.
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« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2011, 02:06:03 PM »

Quote
How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it.

Wood and bricks are a lot weaker, and your hands a lot stronger, than you would think. It's the same principle as hitting it with a hammer -- a sufficiently large force concentrated in a sufficiently small area. No different than breaking a window with a pebble. See here.

Quote
As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that.

It's not so much that there are two branches, but that in the east, martial arts tended to get mixed up with religion and philosophy, and to be seen as a way to enlightenment, and in the west, they stayed purely in the secular realm, and were seen as a way to win a fight.

Interesting Link.  One question:  What about brick?  Cement?

That's interesting.  Never knew there was a distinction.  Would you say that perhaps the people who THINK they are doing nothing are disillusioned?  I think there is a danger of this for sure. 

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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2011, 02:10:54 PM »

It's not so much that there are two branches, but that in the east, martial arts tended to get mixed up with religion and philosophy, and to be seen as a way to enlightenment, and in the west, they stayed purely in the secular realm, and were seen as a way to win a fight.
Especially in China, they're more secular still, until some dude takes the art to America and becomes the Tai Chi Swami to all the impressionable white folks.
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2011, 02:11:26 PM »

One question:  What about brick?  Cement?

Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2011, 02:13:23 PM »

There is a real danger.  For you to think that there isn't, is exactly why we started this topic.  Excercizing?  Opening yourself to new positions that your body was not supposed to go into?  Feeling like you released all this tension in your body?
How do you know what positions the human body is "supposed" to go into?

Releasing tension is part of exercise. I don't think the Fathers despised exercise. It seems, Father, that you are projecting the qualities of religious Hindu Yoga onto all martial arts.
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2011, 02:26:54 PM »

Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2011, 02:46:16 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2011, 02:56:32 PM »

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is.
This is actually a myth.  Wink

And I'm a Shaolin guy.
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2011, 02:59:28 PM »

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is.
This is actually a myth.  Wink

And I'm a Shaolin guy.
Thats not what my sifu says.


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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2011, 03:00:14 PM »

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is.
This is actually a myth.  Wink

And I'm a Shaolin guy.
Thats not what my sifu says.


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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2011, 03:01:14 PM »

Im not calling you a liar BTW.

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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2011, 03:16:39 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2011, 03:22:52 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Nope. If I did my wife would kill me for messing up her walls.

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2011, 03:25:59 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.

My teacher tried to break 4 cement capping blocks with his head for an advertisement.

He hurt himself

So it goes
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2011, 03:32:37 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.

My teacher tried to break 4 cement capping blocks with his head for an advertisement.

He hurt himself

So it goes


Exactly. Thats why we build with blocks...they're harder than we are Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2011, 03:52:19 PM »

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let's consider exactly what a "classical" martial art style really is. To begin with, we must recognize the incontrovertible fact that regardless of their many colorful origins (by a wise, mysterious monk, by a special messenger in a dream, in a holy revelation, etc.) styles are created by men.
(...)
A teacher, a really good sensei, is never a 'giver' of "truth"; he is a guide, a 'pointer' to the truth that the student must discover for himself. A good teacher, therefore, studies each student individually and encourages the student to explore himself, both internally and externally, until, ultimately, the student is integrated with his being. For example, a skillful teacher might spur his student's growth by confronting him with certain frustrations. A good teacher is a catalyst. Besides possessing a deep understanding, he must also have a responsive mind with great flexibility and sensitivity.
Bruce Lee in Liberate Yourself from Classical Karate
http://www.bruce-lee.ws/article3.html
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2011, 04:31:08 PM »

Similar arguments can be made (and refuted) for rock music, painting, sports, etc.

There is nothing wrong with sports, they make boys into men, and I love them.

Rock Music was created by God for ME to be happy.
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2011, 04:50:14 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2011, 04:51:58 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2011, 04:53:30 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.
Exactly Smiley

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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2011, 04:54:44 PM »

All the classic Olympic Sports used to have religious significance given to them, but we don't worry about such things today.
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« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2011, 05:41:09 PM »

All the classic Olympic Sports used to have religious significance given to them, but we don't worry about such things today.

But those are Greek and everyone knows Orthodoxy is just Hellenism with some Slavs grafted on.

PS: good point!
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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2011, 05:46:25 PM »

For every hour of karate you could be doing the Jesus Prayer.  Just a thought.

Father, could you not make this argument about almost anything? Should I throw out my cello and my playstation?

I look forward to your link.

Sorry it took me all day to get to this. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39257.msg630789.html#msg630789

also, I think there is a place & time for everything.  We should not be extreme in either case.  Having video games as a way to relax I think in the real world is fine.  Is it the best thing to be doing?  I think we can both agree on the answer to this question.  Are there better ways to spend your time?  Yes.  Is the devil going to attack you no matter what you do, yes. 

However, doing Karate & other disciplines in that vein are much more dangerous b/c you are actively pursuing opening yourself up to things, whether or not you are aware of it or want it.  Let's continue that discussion in the other thread though. 

Father, thank you for this reply in the other thread.

I can understand your wariness towards the Eastern martial arts, given many of them traditionally have a spiritual component, I am having trouble not being convinced by some of the counter-arguments in this thread, however.
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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2011, 05:58:30 PM »

Chemistry has its origin in Alchemy.

Byzantine music owes a lot to Pagan Pythagoric theories of music as a healing tool.

Christian associate meaning to numbers in a novel fashion than Pythagoreans themselves, but associate it nevertheless.

Scriptures were written in literary styles that are related to Jewish and Greek styles of the time.

Our icons started copying the techniques and styles of Greek and Roman paintings.

Satanists copy elements of the Liturgy to mock it.

For arts and crafts, it's not so much what you but how you do it and about what you do it.

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« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2011, 08:14:56 PM »

There is a real danger.  For you to think that there isn't, is exactly why we started this topic.  Excercizing?  Opening yourself to new positions that your body was not supposed to go into?  Feeling like you released all this tension in your body?
How do you know what positions the human body is "supposed" to go into?

Releasing tension is part of exercise. I don't think the Fathers despised exercise. It seems, Father, that you are projecting the qualities of religious Hindu Yoga onto all martial arts.

I can tell you this isn't one of them.  http://images.meredith.com/fitness/images/2009/06/ss_shot_7-029.jpg

there are plenty of other ways to release tension.  How about starting with prayer as the first one.  I think that any other substitute is a poor one.  I'm not saying don't get regular exercise, I just don't think that Yoga is the way to go.  There's plenty of other programs out there that arn't opening you to things that are directly connected to pagan spirituality. 
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« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2011, 08:16:31 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.
One question:  What about brick?  Cement?

Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

thanks for the responses.  I was genuinely curious. 
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« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2011, 08:19:37 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 
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« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2011, 08:21:10 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2011, 08:21:58 PM »

All the classic Olympic Sports used to have religious significance given to them, but we don't worry about such things today.

in what way and towards what purpose.  I think exploring this may be critical to the discussion. 
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2011, 09:32:16 PM »

Karate is not demonic.
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2011, 09:35:33 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



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From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2011, 10:11:29 PM »

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

This expert is either lying, delusional, or naive. Probably all three.
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2011, 10:34:42 PM »

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

This expert is either lying, delusional, or naive. Probably all three.
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2011, 10:43:07 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

I'm sorry, Father, but this sounds like something out of a Chick tract.
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2011, 10:56:43 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

I'm sorry, Father, but this sounds like something out of a Chick tract.

Oh, good, I'm not the only one who thinks so. I'm thinking "Dark Dungeons" and the Chick claims about RPGs in specific.
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2011, 11:42:32 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.
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« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2011, 12:41:03 AM »

Father, you've hit onto something important. There are indeed wackos who want to scam you out of your money and engage in cult practices in the name of martial arts. A lot of this is psychological, a lot of it is "other", sure. But legitimate, functional martial arts don't resort to weird cult practices very often. They don't have to.

Your local Oom Yung Do, "Shaolin Kempo Karate" or other nonsense martial arts school probably has wacky cultic aspects; among the most dangerous is the brainwashing that students undergo which makes them believe that the bodies of their opponents are fragile and theirs are not, and that they have fighting abilities that they do not.
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« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2011, 10:48:57 AM »

Wing Chun really isn't that much about inner strength as much as it is about using minimal strength and energy. Because a Wing Chun practitioner is relaxed during the fight by using speed and minimal movements he can easily over power a boxer or a BJJ practitioner. Its complicated to explain, but even when punching, blocking, and kicking the practitioner is relaxed so their opponent tires out quickly when they resort to "f*cking sh*t up."

This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.
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« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Yes, much of it is definitely sport. In Japan Kendo (Sword play) is similar to an American Wrestling Team and is taught in many schools.

I was taught a very serious form of Tai Kwan Do with the expressed purpose of fighting police during riots. Things of course eased up and later my lessons were in a more regular setting but still I found Korean Karate to have the killer aspect you mentioned.

That is why I avoided  it and went with a different style when my little boy was ready for Karate. I told the Teacher that I dont have any expectation of him ever joining the French Foreign Legion or Delta Force, I just want him to learn discipline and get his mind and body in sync. Knowing some self defense got him out of a few scraps and tussles through the years but that is actually secondary.

Like my son, I have no ability to hit, throw or catch a ball very well. But we are both wired in a way that allows us to see a movement, a dance step or a karate form and learn it quickly. It is a sport that suits many people well... I have no fear of demonic possession Smiley

« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:53:15 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2011, 11:03:50 AM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Yes, much of it is definitely sport. In Japan Kendo (Sword play) is similar to an American Wrestling Team and is taught in many schools.

I was taught a very serious form of Tai Kwan Do with the expressed purpose of fighting police during riots. Things of course eased up and later my lessons were in a more regular setting but still I found Korean Karate to have the killer aspect you mentioned.

That is why I avoided  it and went with a different style when my little boy was ready for Karate. I told the Teacher that I dont have any expectation of him ever joining the French Foreign Legion or Delta Force, I just want him to learn discipline and get his mind and body in sync. Knowing some self defense got him out of a few scraps and tussles through the years but that is actually secondary.

Like my son, I have no ability to hit, throw or catch a ball very well. But we are both wired in a way that allows us to see a movement, a dance step or a karate form and learn it quickly. It is a sport that suits many people well... I have no fear of demonic possession Smiley



Tae Kwon Do can be very effective, seeing as it was a unification of the various Korean martial arts to be taught to the ROK Army.
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« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2011, 11:20:22 AM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Yes, much of it is definitely sport. In Japan Kendo (Sword play) is similar to an American Wrestling Team and is taught in many schools.

I was taught a very serious form of Tai Kwan Do with the expressed purpose of fighting police during riots. Things of course eased up and later my lessons were in a more regular setting but still I found Korean Karate to have the killer aspect you mentioned.

That is why I avoided  it and went with a different style when my little boy was ready for Karate. I told the Teacher that I dont have any expectation of him ever joining the French Foreign Legion or Delta Force, I just want him to learn discipline and get his mind and body in sync. Knowing some self defense got him out of a few scraps and tussles through the years but that is actually secondary.

Like my son, I have no ability to hit, throw or catch a ball very well. But we are both wired in a way that allows us to see a movement, a dance step or a karate form and learn it quickly. It is a sport that suits many people well... I have no fear of demonic possession Smiley



Tae Kwon Do can be very effective, seeing as it was a unification of the various Korean martial arts to be taught to the ROK Army.

Definitely. I used to kid him about his style and tell him how "Pretty" it was, even though I am the one who chose it for him "Okinawan Goju Ryu"

Tae Kwon Do is very direct with no extra movements.

The thing about Goju Ryu is that they get up really close when they fight you and use fists far more than I would. We stand back and kick you to death.
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« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2011, 11:29:14 AM »


This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.
Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

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« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2011, 11:51:12 AM »


This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.
Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency. What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."
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« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2011, 11:58:49 AM »


I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency.
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

No, what I mean is that in Gung Fu a great number of attacks are designed to strike very vital points like eyes, throat, groin, etc. because these would be illegal it would diminish Gung-Fu's effectiveness. It would be the same as saying you could use Muay Thai but you cant throw elbows.

Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
The same could be said for anything. If Im BJJ and I cant go to the ground...oops, or im a MT fighter and I cant use my knees or elbows, oops or if I'm Wolverine and I cant use my claws, oops. Totally Non sequitur

PP
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« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2011, 01:49:08 PM »


This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.
Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency. What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."


Firstly, Wing Chun is a style that is designed to kill, a person throws an attack and the WC practitioner just reacts with what feels natural, in an octagon that could mean killing ones opponent - especially from a student who is not well trained enough to move a kill shot to an injure shot (such as a punch to the chin = knock out, as opposed to the same move but lower being a punch to the adams apple = death - very little variance in location, but big variance in outcome).

Secondly, many WC schools do not teach aspects of other arts, or even the full aspect of WC. For instance, WC is full of some anti-grappling moves, but many schools do not touch on this. This is a problem, not just with WC but with many traditional schools.

Thirdly, I have trained by actually fighting in WC. I have gone cross hands full speed with a third level black sash when I was a green sash (which is quite intense) and got a few bruises to show for it. I got a cracked rib when I did not properly block a kick that was thrown my way. I put gloves on and sparred fully against people many levels above myself. I also pitted my WC skills against the skills of BJJ practitioners (some times they won, some times I won); I also injured my shoulder when learning BJJ. If one can find the right instructor one can learn WC as a full contact style (notice I did not say sport).

Fourthly, I have used my WC skills to supplement other MAs that I have studied, such as BJJ, Judo, Akido, MT, Kali, and Army Combatives and vice versa. I have surprised many a person when I get out of submissions using what i know of WC, or when I block their takedowns, or when I get in the mounted position and proceed to decimate their face with a simple lap-da followed by a series of chain punches.

Believe me when I say that WC is a very versatile style and can add lethality to any other style, one only needs to find the right instructor, and luckily my instructors are well versed in many MAs so they know how to adapt WC to the other fighting styles.

Now, I am not saying that WC is the best style ever, nor would I ever say that one style is better than the other, it all depends on the skill of the practitioner. I am saying that WC is not useless, even when pitted against other styles, based on my own experience and the experience of others that I know.

Any way, thats all I have to say about this right now, its getting late here in Kuwait and I have an early day tomorrow.
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« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2011, 02:55:12 PM »


I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency.
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."

No, what I mean is that in Gung Fu a great number of attacks are designed to strike very vital points like eyes, throat, groin, etc. because these would be illegal it would diminish Gung-Fu's effectiveness. It would be the same as saying you could use Muay Thai but you cant throw elbows.

This is totally unresponsive to the point that traditional martial arts generally have no training whatsoever against resisting opponents. Do you think there is a way to get good at fighting without ever fighting?

But, I will entertain your objection. Let's just say the TMA guys got to do everything they wanted. Here's what would happen:

Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage.

Quote
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
The same could be said for anything. If Im BJJ and I cant go to the ground...oops, or im a MT fighter and I cant use my knees or elbows, oops or if I'm Wolverine and I cant use my claws, oops. Totally Non sequitur

PP
How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2011, 02:59:40 PM »


This must be why WC practitioners rule the MMA circuit.

And yes, I did practice it some years ago.
Actually,  you dont see many Chinese martial arts in MMA because MMA is built around rules and I know as far a Gung-Fu is concerned, many things would not be allowed (ie: gouges, some groin attacks, eye and throat attacks, etc) which would have said person be at a severe disadvantage.

PP

I do not find this very persuasive. The rules apply no matter what the competitor's fighting style is. Are you really wishing to say that Wing Chun would be sweeping the MMA circuit if only they could hit the groin and attack the eyes? I think such an argument concedes a serious deficiency. What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.

A related and more fundamental problem is that with a few exceptions such as judo and muay thai, the traditional Eastern martial arts do very little in the way of training against resisting opponents. If you are a BJJ student, you train by fighting. If you are a judo student, you train by fighting. Same for muay thai. Most others, you train by standing in lines punching and kicking the air or really slow drills to the tune of "he comes in like this, so I go like this, and then he goes like this...."


Firstly, Wing Chun is a style that is designed to kill, a person throws an attack and the WC practitioner just reacts with what feels natural, in an octagon that could mean killing ones opponent - especially from a student who is not well trained enough to move a kill shot to an injure shot (such as a punch to the chin = knock out, as opposed to the same move but lower being a punch to the adams apple = death - very little variance in location, but big variance in outcome).

First, pretty much every TMA in the world says that it is "design to kill", so you need to do better than that.

Quote
Thirdly, I have trained by actually fighting in WC. I have gone cross hands full speed with a third level black sash when I was a green sash (which is quite intense) and got a few bruises to show for it. I got a cracked rib when I did not properly block a kick that was thrown my way. I put gloves on and sparred fully against people many levels above myself. I also pitted my WC skills against the skills of BJJ practitioners (some times they won, some times I won); I also injured my shoulder when learning BJJ. If one can find the right instructor one can learn WC as a full contact style (notice I did not say sport).

I do not consider sticking hands and slapping pak saos while standing in line formation to be fighting a resisting opponent.

Quote
Now, I am not saying that WC is the best style ever, nor would I ever say that one style is better than the other, it all depends on the skill of the practitioner. I am saying that WC is not useless, even when pitted against other styles, based on my own experience and the experience of others that I know.

I am not saying it is worthless, but one must be able to answer why we don't see it in the octagon. (please don't say because it is so deadly. That would be too comical)
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« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2011, 03:05:24 PM »

Quote
How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."
I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP
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« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2011, 03:07:30 PM »


Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)
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« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2011, 03:11:19 PM »


Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2011, 03:22:10 PM »

Quote
How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."
I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

I asked why we don't see very much TMA in MMA, and you essentially said that it is because TMA is teh deadly. Do you understand why that is not very persuasive?
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2011, 03:23:24 PM »


Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

I prefer my Kimber 1911, although I am thinking of adding a J-frame to my collection. I live in a warm climate and I often end up leaving the .45 in the glove box because of its size.
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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2011, 03:27:13 PM »

Quote
How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."
I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

I asked why we don't see very much TMA in MMA, and you essentially said that it is because TMA is teh deadly. Do you understand why that is not very persuasive?

Ah good, then I assume you can quote where I said you dont see it because it's deadly right?


PP
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2011, 03:29:42 PM »


Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

Glock Fu has always served me well.  When it doesn't there's always AKwon Do ("won do" means 47 in Korean...)

I prefer my Kimber 1911, although I am thinking of adding a J-frame to my collection. I live in a warm climate and I often end up leaving the .45 in the glove box because of its size.


J-Frame gets my recommendation.  Best firearm purchase I have ever made.  My buddy scorned it for sometime, deciding to buy a short barreled 1911 in 9mm.  POS.  He has since bought a J-Frame and loves it.

I've never had luck with Kimbers.  I have never known someone who's had them jam on them, but I have fired two different ones and have had them jam on three occasions.  Kimbers don't like me. 
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2011, 03:37:13 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.

Thing is the most dangerous aspects of the stuff being discussed here is not the silly American consumer friendly "spirituality" of most of what is being discussed.

The most dangerous thing is that they are called "marital" in any sense of the word.

If you ain't training specifically to kill another human being or a group of them and are not doing so in a relatively live manner and have not committed yourself to the fact you are willing to kill another human, you are kidding yourself. And all the hoping around, rolling on the ground, kicking and punching in the air will just get you killed or seriously injured when find someone who truly has learned the meaning of war.

All this stuff is just sport.

It becomes martial when you have decided you will kill another human and truly so, when you have killed one or made the conscious decision not to having had the clear and easy opportunity to do so.

Deciding you willing to take another's life and really "know" what that is like to have the life of a human in your hands is the most "spiritual" aspect of any discussion like this.

That decision should be the focus of this discussion.

And FWIW, if you want to begin to learn the martial arts: live in a war zone or hell hole in America. That will give you an idea of the reality of what it is required mentally than any hopping around in pajamas of a middle class American LARP.

Then go learn the first and most basic and essentially American of martial arts: how to carry and kill another with a gun.

This really is the crux of the matter. 

1- A martial art is absolutely useless if you do not have the mind set to kill.  I would put my money on a ballerina with the will to kill over a black belt without it.  Without the mindset any martial art is basically just dancing.

2- If you do have the mindset to kill you open yourself up to sin. Killing is evil.  Sometimes it is "less evil" than allowing harm to come to an innocent, but nonetheless.  If Adam would not have done it in Eden or Christ in Jerusalem then it is the clear manifestation of out sins.

3- As for the OP, I agree with him to a degree.  Martial arts can get in the way of prayer.  So can soap operas or any other activity.  If something, anything, keeps you further from God then it is demonically influenced.  But you can do these things without harm to your soul.  No sport or activity is intrinsically evil. 

Except maybe golf.
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« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2011, 04:16:18 PM »

Quote
How is it a non sequitur? Again, this is essentially a concession that TMA striking is not very effective.

Your argument essentially sounds like a kid on the playground. "Yeah, if we had a fight I would totally win because my techniques are so deadly. Therefore, we cannot fight because I am so effective. I would kill you! So, we should just go ahead and declare me the winner without having a fight."
I am totally incapable of understanding how you got that out of my statement. I will quote your comment:
Quote
What if you're in a fight and you aren't able to gouge the eyes? Oops.
I simply stated that the argument is illogical because the same could be said about any form that specializes on certain attacks. You state my argument essentially sounds like a kid on a playground when I made absolutely no reference to anything you study nor how "much better" my styles are than yours.
However, you were making generalizations concerning WC and Gung-Fu and other "eastern" forms with obviously no experience in what you were saying.

PP

I asked why we don't see very much TMA in MMA, and you essentially said that it is because TMA is teh deadly. Do you understand why that is not very persuasive?

Ah good, then I assume you can quote where I said you dont see it because it's deadly right?


PP

Mercy me. "teh deadly" is an expression popular at the bullshido forum. I wasn't literally saying that you claimed the techniques are deadly.

The point is, the claim is that TMA doesn't work in MMA because they can't use groin strikes and eye gouges et cetera. Fine. Let them all in and guess what? The BJJ and other MMA fighters will get to use those same techniques, too, so it is a wash. Like I said, it would go like this:

Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage.

You've not responded to that point, by the way.
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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2011, 04:30:13 PM »

Quote
cy me. "teh deadly" is an expression popular at the bullshido forum. I wasn't literally saying that you claimed the techniques are deadly.
Im not a member of that forum so.......


Quote
The point is, the claim is that TMA doesn't work in MMA because they can't use groin strikes and eye gouges et cetera. Fine. Let them all in and guess what? The BJJ and other MMA fighters will get to use those same techniques, too, so it is a wash.
They can come in. Its not like the forms are illegal, just some of the techniques.

Quote
Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage
Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

The thing is, none of this is demonic  Wink


PP
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« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2011, 04:33:00 PM »

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.
But a lot fewer Eastern practitioners train in an alive manner, PP. That's the main difference.
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« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2011, 04:34:12 PM »

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.
But a lot fewer Eastern practitioners train in an alive manner, PP. That's the main difference.

Also true.

PP
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« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2011, 04:48:12 PM »

Quote
The point is, the claim is that TMA doesn't work in MMA because they can't use groin strikes and eye gouges et cetera. Fine. Let them all in and guess what? The BJJ and other MMA fighters will get to use those same techniques, too, so it is a wash.
They can come in. Its not like the forms are illegal, just some of the techniques.
When I said, "let them come in", I meant those particular techniques.

Quote
Quote
Gong Fu Guy: I will gouge your eyes if you mount me!
MMA Guy: I guess I will do the same thing from on top of you while I have the reach advantage
Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.

But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash.

Quote
The thing is, none of this is demonic  Wink

On this point we are in perfect agreement.

I will now digress for a bit, although it is apropos to this discussion. I must say, perhaps it is because the internet brings out the "best" in people, but as an inquirer, the most startling thing to me has been how many people of this forum have been so ready to see evil spirits at every turn. Potential demonic things I have seen discussed here include:

* playing cards
* Buddhist statues
* eating in an Indian restaurant

Now we can add "strip mall karate" to that list.  laugh
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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2011, 04:55:21 PM »

Quote
When I said, "let them come in", I meant those particular techniques.
Sry, I misunderstood.

Quote
But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash
I dont think it's a thin argument but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Quote
On this point we are in perfect agreement.

I will now digress for a bit, although it is apropos to this discussion. I must say, perhaps it is because the internet brings out the "best" in people, but as an inquirer, the most startling thing to me has been how many people of this forum have been so ready to see evil spirits at every turn. Potential demonic things I have seen discussed here include:

* playing cards
* Buddhist statues
* eating in an Indian restaurant

Now we can add "strip mall karate" to that list

You forgot the papacy, video games, not calling Jesus by his hebrew name, and I think horror flicks are in there somewhere.....

However I wouldn't say "most people" as IMHO most folks here are reasonable, even-minded, nice folks. Of course any one may be an axe murderer IRL I like the folks here a great deal from what I have gotten to know of them.


PP
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« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2011, 05:39:06 PM »


Quote
But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash
I dont think it's a thin argument but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
If you don't actively train eye-gouging, fish hooking, hair pulling, groin-stealing "deadly" moves in an alive manner (which no sane person would) then you are no more equipped to do them under pressure than an MMA guy is. That's kinda the point.
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2011, 05:40:42 PM »

Ok I'll respond. Im sure there are MMA guys that are better than Gung-Fu guys or WC guys or any other practitioner. Just like there are "Eastern" practitioners that could wipe the floor with some MMA guys. Both cases are true.
But a lot fewer Eastern practitioners train in an alive manner, PP. That's the main difference.

No one trains "live". Live is when you ain't training. Vamrat is amplifying my point. I am a lettered and relatively accomplished fighter in real MA: wrestling and boxing. Real athletes as kids pursue real sport to participate against real athletes. You get money for college, girls, etc.

Nerds spend time doing TKD, JKD, WC whatever. Guys with self-esteem issues play MMA (the worst of all worlds) and put the EQ decals all over their cars. You pick any panjama wearing 16 year old and I will pick a kid the same age and weight in a decent HS wrestling program and show him how to throw a jab and lead hook and feel what it is like to nearly get knocked out and keep going. They will eat any of the pajama wearers alive. Won't last 30 seconds. This is just a matter of athleticism.

Again to Vamrat making my point. The decision and capacity to easily and effortlessly take another life is what being "martial" is. And the question is whether that is a sin.

I know that it is, in the ontological sense. Knowing that you can extinguish human life in a phenomenological manner changes who you are. You might not notice it when you have to be on guard or think you do 24 / 7, but when things cool down, those "skills" radically separate you from others who just don't have that knowledge of evil. Whether those wounds heal over time, if they do, they do slowly if at all.

Nearly everyone "studying martial arts" will never use it. And if they have to against some who has gone through the above it won't matter. You will just get punished more.

As Vamrat pointed out, I'll place my money on guy or girl off the street with no remorse over whatever goofball MA nerd you can find.

There really ain't nothing to this discussion, because if any starts arguing about styles and the like, they have no idea what they are talking about.

My point and Vamrat's are the only that need addressing.

If you are a relatively sane person, do you want to become someone who is comfortable with killing someone else? I pray you all opt out, from the tenor of the posts I doubt any are too real here, thank God. And realize that your MA amounts to jazzercize and enjoy it, but don't indulge yourself in a fantasy world.



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« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2011, 05:44:02 PM »


Quote
But until now, the argument has been that the TMA guys can't use their best moves, which is why they don't even bother with MMA fights. Like I said, I find that argument to be thin and rather a wash
I dont think it's a thin argument but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
If you don't actively train eye-gouging, fish hooking, hair pulling, groin-stealing "deadly" moves in an alive manner (which no sane person would) then you are no more equipped to do them under pressure than an MMA guy is. That's kinda the point.

This is my point. And more people do than you know. You have to. It ain't training. It is living.

Again, if you don't know what it like to feel human flesh between your teeth or an eye being "popped" or pushed it out its socket, you ain't really had to fight for much more than pride or fantasy. Of course these are just some examples.

Bottom line: Father is right for all the wrong reasons.

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« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2011, 05:44:19 PM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.
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« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2011, 05:47:26 PM »

you ain't really had to fight for much more than pride or fantasy.
Hey! That's why I started doing martial arts.
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« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2011, 05:48:41 PM »

Say what you will about it, the idea of martial arts as a form of exercise/ meditation/ self-discipline training was not born in American strip-malls, but in Buddhist and Daoist monasteries. Yes, we all know about the Shaolin and Wu Dang monks using their skills in actual combat but most of the time that wasn't happening.
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« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2011, 06:04:59 PM »

Orthonorm, the opposite can also be the case.

Knowing that I have absolutely no capacity to kill and could probably lose a fight to a girl, I am constantly on guard about other people, judging them, avoiding eye contact, hoping they don't come near me ...

Sometimes I think if everyone was a little bit afraid of me, I could have the freedom to love them a bit more, knowing their capacity to hurt me is diminished.

I wonder which mindset is worse.
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« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2011, 06:14:18 PM »

I've heard that, in Japanese, the distinction between "jutsu" and "do" is the distinction between martial-arts-as-sport and martial-arts-as-way-of-life.

"Jutsu" means technique, whereas "do" means "way (of)".

Hence:

Ju-jutsu: gentle technique; and
Ju-do: gentle way.

I don't think this same distinction exists in Chinese, but it may in Korean.

As has been said above, in Japan, most of the traditional martial arts are practised in the same way one practises guitar or soccer.
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« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2011, 07:28:54 PM »

Orthonorm, the opposite can also be the case.

Knowing that I have absolutely no capacity to kill and could probably lose a fight to a girl, I am constantly on guard about other people, judging them, avoiding eye contact, hoping they don't come near me ...

Sometimes I think if everyone was a little bit afraid of me, I could have the freedom to love them a bit more, knowing their capacity to hurt me is diminished.

I wonder which mindset is worse.

I think you are selling yourself short. I think everyone posting here has the ability to kill. Perhaps not through your own brute strength or unarmed technique, but the ability is there all the same. Drunk drivers do it all the time with zero training.
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« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2011, 07:42:29 PM »

Orthonorm, the opposite can also be the case.

Knowing that I have absolutely no capacity to kill and could probably lose a fight to a girl, I am constantly on guard about other people, judging them, avoiding eye contact, hoping they don't come near me ...

Sometimes I think if everyone was a little bit afraid of me, I could have the freedom to love them a bit more, knowing their capacity to hurt me is diminished.

I wonder which mindset is worse.

I think you are selling yourself short. I think everyone posting here has the ability to kill. Perhaps not through your own brute strength or unarmed technique, but the ability is there all the same. Drunk drivers do it all the time with zero training.


Well said. Something to think about.
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« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2011, 09:03:33 PM »



3- As for the OP, I agree with him to a degree.  Martial arts can get in the way of prayer.  So can soap operas or any other activity.  If something, anything, keeps you further from God then it is demonically influenced.  But you can do these things without harm to your soul.  No sport or activity is intrinsically evil. 

Except maybe golf.

Nice.  well played.   Kiss
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« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2011, 09:07:14 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I do take offense b/c there is no way that you know that. 

In fact, this same person at his baptism, who had personally experienced all these things that I keep writing, had 2 demons (black smokey objects) come out of his mouth as he was being fully immersed under water for the baptism.  So...to say that it's ridiculous & patently false seems to be severely mistaken. 

Let me take a break here and say that there seems to be a break in communication between you and me.  I'm assuming that everything you are saying is correct.  I am also assuming that everything I am saying is correct.  That is what dialogue is all about.  If you think that what i'm saying is just ridiculous b/c of your own life experience, say that.  However, please also read the things that I am putting down and say to yourself "hm, I wonder if this were true, then x + y could also be true in my life" 

I think it's a worthwhile exercise. 
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« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2011, 09:08:22 PM »

And according to an expert that I know, this is the lie that is fed to americans to get them to participate in these "harmless rituals" and etc. 

This expert is either lying, delusional, or naive. Probably all three.

please see my response above. 
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« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2011, 09:11:04 PM »

I guess I'm supposed to let a mugger beat me up, then...  Shocked
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« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2011, 09:18:22 PM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

Its scripted by the very fact you know *something* is going to happen and you are not wanting to devour the other human or vice versa. Unless you are.

I know what they mean by "live" . . . just more fantasy.

I don't want to even get into "women's" self-defense.

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« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2011, 09:38:59 PM »

Because, obviously, you're 'out on the street' 'kicking --- every day.' Who are you, Chuck Norris?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2011, 10:08:15 PM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

Its scripted by the very fact you know *something* is going to happen and you are not wanting to devour the other human or vice versa. Unless you are.

I know what they mean by "live" . . . just more fantasy.

I don't want to even get into "women's" self-defense.

Talk to Boom Boom Mancini about how a boxing match is "just more fantasy".
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« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2011, 12:15:37 AM »

No one trains "live".
"Alive" is not a term that refers to "real life encounters" and Krav Maga-esque attempts to duplicate them. It refers to spontaneous, hard-contact un-scripted training.

Its scripted by the very fact you know *something* is going to happen and you are not wanting to devour the other human or vice versa. Unless you are.

I know what they mean by "live" . . . just more fantasy.

I don't want to even get into "women's" self-defense.



Krav Maga, Systema, Tae Kwon Do and other military martial arts have a purpose.  It's not so much "alive" training as it is "realistic".  Form is less important than effect.  Most of the guys I've seen doing Systema are wearing camouflage and combat boots (I have seen a picture of an ROK soldier once doing a flying Tae Kwon Do kick in full uniform, pot helmet and everything).  Systema also uses weapons in close combat training, not samurai swords but empty AKs and sharpened shovels.  ANything you might find yourself having to use then the rifle jammed or, more likely with an AK, went empty. 

So some martial arts have value...if you have the killer intent.

Women's self defense generally involves telling them not to drop the gun, don't point it at me, and keep your finger off the bloody trigger until it is down range and you are ready to shoot.  I also pray continuously the whole time and then have a drink or three afterwards.  It was a horrifying experience to say the least.  Even if she learned nothing about using the gun properly, I think I am one step closer to fearlessness!
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« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2011, 05:34:21 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?
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« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2011, 07:37:24 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.
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« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2011, 09:58:28 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.
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« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2011, 10:15:51 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

Since he wasn't actually the one being taken from the "dojo" to the mountains of China or wherever, not necessarily.

And while this may very well have happened to one person he knows, to say that this is a common or general practice is silly.
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« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2011, 11:18:31 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

Lighten up.  It is actually a reasonable request to ask someone who goes out of their way to say, "that is ridiculous and patently false," to back up their statement, since they obviously feel strongly enough to skip, "I don't believe you," and go right to, "objectively this is incorrect."

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.

My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice.  So yes, sometimes the stuff in strip malls is good, but many times its not.  If they're promising that you'll get your black belt definitely in <3-4 years, or, conversely, if you have to practically die to get it (starvation, sleep deprivation, fighting a room full of black belts, and then be evaluated afterward), then it's not legit.
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« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2011, 11:22:55 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

I am not familiar with the training or experiences of Orthodox priests, but does it include being whisked away to the mountains of China to learn about super secret kung fu techniques? I would find that rather surprising.
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« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2011, 11:29:12 AM »


My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice. 

That's completely different from what's being claimed here. It's one thing to say that they are devaluing or corrupting the practice. Of course that will happen with anything where there's money to be made from gullible people. It's a completely different thing to say that there is some secret dimension to the practice revealed to high-level initiates who get sent to China or Japan. Yes, some western students do end up traveling to Asia because they hear that some great teachers are there, which makes sense. There's no occult fraternity conferring kung fu superpowers though.
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« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2011, 11:34:59 AM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

Lighten up.

Really?

Quote
It is actually a reasonable request to ask someone who goes out of their way to say, "that is ridiculous and patently false," to back up their statement, since they obviously feel strongly enough to skip, "I don't believe you," and go right to, "objectively this is incorrect."

It is not reasonable because it calls for the proof of a negative. It was not for Marc to prove that there are no super secret awesome training temples in the foothills of China, but for serb1389 to give some supporting evidence. Unfortunately, the best he can do is "some guy told me". As a more general matter, serb1389's entire point was a special pleading. Marc doesn't have to prove a special pleading wrong because it is wrong as a matter of logic.

Quote
As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.

My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice.  So yes, sometimes the stuff in strip malls is good, but many times its not.  If they're promising that you'll get your black belt definitely in <3-4 years, or, conversely, if you have to practically die to get it (starvation, sleep deprivation, fighting a room full of black belts, and then be evaluated afterward), then it's not legit.

Don't get me wrong. I am not extolling the virtues of strip mall McDojos. I think a lot of it is bullshido. My meaning of my comment is that saying "the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path" sounds just like when conspiracy theorists say to their grandfather who has been a Mason for decades, "oh grandpa, you don't see any of the conspiracy because you didn't get invited up to the super high levels that controls the money supply and the presidential election and whether they will ever remake 'The Last Starfigher'."

It's special pleading, plain and simple, and special pleading is fallacious.
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« Reply #108 on: September 01, 2011, 11:38:36 AM »


My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice. 

That's completely different from what's being claimed here. It's one thing to say that they are devaluing or corrupting the practice. Of course that will happen with anything where there's money to be made from gullible people. It's a completely different thing to say that there is some secret dimension to the practice revealed to high-level initiates who get sent to China or Japan. Yes, some western students do end up traveling to Asia because they hear that some great teachers are there, which makes sense. There's no occult fraternity conferring kung fu superpowers though.

This. Drawing from my personal experience, westerners certainly go to the Kodokan in Tokyo to train judo. But, it's just a building in Bunkyo Ward. It has a cafeteria, for crying out loud. There is no secret cabal of mysticism going on.
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« Reply #109 on: September 01, 2011, 11:43:39 AM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I do take offense b/c there is no way that you know that. 

In fact, this same person at his baptism, who had personally experienced all these things that I keep writing, had 2 demons (black smokey objects) come out of his mouth as he was being fully immersed under water for the baptism.  So...to say that it's ridiculous & patently false seems to be severely mistaken. 

Let me take a break here and say that there seems to be a break in communication between you and me.  I'm assuming that everything you are saying is correct.  I am also assuming that everything I am saying is correct.  That is what dialogue is all about.  If you think that what i'm saying is just ridiculous b/c of your own life experience, say that.  However, please also read the things that I am putting down and say to yourself "hm, I wonder if this were true, then x + y could also be true in my life" 

I think it's a worthwhile exercise. 

I dont doubt that people can and do have experiences with Demons. But to paint something as wholesome and worthwhile as Karate as akin to an evil cult that will lure you into demonic contact is pretty darn wrong to claim.

My experience is decades of being involved with Karate and decades dealing with the Japanese as a Buddhist.

Most Karate here in suburban USA is about kids learning discipline. It's not about killing anyone or potentially being lured into a demonic trap. It's about growing up, getting homework done on time, getting physically fit and leaning how to overcome obstacles and becoming a little brave.
When you're an adult it's about staying fit and and some of the above virtues as they still apply.

When my son was robbed ( he is a 2nd degree black belt, 22 years old) the mugger probably was just pretending to be armed. His Karate training kicked in which was to never never never try to fight in such a situation and so he handed over his wallet. That's called good training. If he had resisted, his teacher would have had his head on a plate.

No one, should be scared off from learning Karate because of dire warnings by green belts or folks who have never set foot in a dojo.  

 My apologies to the Cage Fighters, paid Mercenaries and Army Rangers among us.
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« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2011, 12:03:52 PM »

My dad's 1st cousin has been in martial arts 40+ years, has been an instructor, coach for instructors, movie consultant - you name it.  He feels very strongly that way too many martial arts instructors are clowns and are devaluing, or corrupting, martial arts practice.  So yes, sometimes the stuff in strip malls is good, but many times its not.  If they're promising that you'll get your black belt definitely in <3-4 years, or, conversely, if you have to practically die to get it (starvation, sleep deprivation, fighting a room full of black belts, and then be evaluated afterward), then it's not legit.


Is that your experience? Stuff your Dad's cousin has said and maybe not even directly to you? Have you ever been involved in karate yourself ( yes/no) circle one.

Yes there are certainly very weak Teachers who run Karate Mills. You have to be careful and get some advice before signing up.

While starvation was not part of the Black Belt Test ( I have either participated in or watched dozens) fighting everyone in the Dojo is normal fare. You must demonstrate that you know all the forms from 1st to last, answer questions and then spar with everyone.

I remember one test in particular. The student was a very nice guy but maybe thought a bit too much of his own skills. So the Teacher brought in a ringer from New York who was in our association of Goju Ryu, a tall lanky chap.

Once the student had gone through all the others and was tired the Teacher had him fight the ringer who kicked his a.. very thoroughly. There was blood all over the mats. The teacher flunked the Student even though I thought he did well enough. He wanted to teach him a lesson in humility.

That's good enough for normal people leading a normal life. Once again, starvation or being left on an ice flow for a couple of weeks only takes place in the vivid imagination of folks who have not had much contact with Karate. God rest David Carridine.

 
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« Reply #111 on: September 01, 2011, 04:35:06 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I do take offense b/c there is no way that you know that. 

In fact, this same person at his baptism, who had personally experienced all these things that I keep writing, had 2 demons (black smokey objects) come out of his mouth as he was being fully immersed under water for the baptism.  So...to say that it's ridiculous & patently false seems to be severely mistaken. 

Let me take a break here and say that there seems to be a break in communication between you and me.  I'm assuming that everything you are saying is correct.  I am also assuming that everything I am saying is correct.  That is what dialogue is all about.  If you think that what i'm saying is just ridiculous b/c of your own life experience, say that.  However, please also read the things that I am putting down and say to yourself "hm, I wonder if this were true, then x + y could also be true in my life" 

I think it's a worthwhile exercise. 

I dont doubt that people can and do have experiences with Demons. But to paint something as wholesome and worthwhile as Karate as akin to an evil cult that will lure you into demonic contact is pretty darn wrong to claim.

My experience is decades of being involved with Karate and decades dealing with the Japanese as a Buddhist.

Most Karate here in suburban USA is about kids learning discipline. It's not about killing anyone or potentially being lured into a demonic trap. It's about growing up, getting homework done on time, getting physically fit and leaning how to overcome obstacles and becoming a little brave.
When you're an adult it's about staying fit and and some of the above virtues as they still apply.

When my son was robbed ( he is a 2nd degree black belt, 22 years old) the mugger probably was just pretending to be armed. His Karate training kicked in which was to never never never try to fight in such a situation and so he handed over his wallet. That's called good training. If he had resisted, his teacher would have had his head on a plate.

No one, should be scared off from learning Karate because of dire warnings by green belts or folks who have never set foot in a dojo.  

 My apologies to the Cage Fighters, paid Mercenaries and Army Rangers among us.

Partially yes I am painting it the way you describe above.  Also though I am presenting the case that a young man presented to me recently, and am backing his case up by examples of things that have been witnessed in his life.  That to me is the proof.  If you disagree, you disagree. However, to say that it is impossible, to me, is naive. 

To think that you, or anyone else for that matter, are not opening yourselves, unnecessarily, is naive.  After all the explanations this young man gave me (and other people) and the details he went into with conversations he'd had with some of the highest members of Hinduism, etc. in the Orient, it was truly unbelievable how much demonology permeates through these things & actions. 

In my mind, it's not worth opening that door. 

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« Reply #112 on: September 01, 2011, 04:36:16 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

I am not familiar with the training or experiences of Orthodox priests, but does it include being whisked away to the mountains of China to learn about super secret kung fu techniques? I would find that rather surprising.


Surprising as it may be, I have no reason to think that this man was lying, especially considering some of the other experiences that happened & were witnessed. 
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« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2011, 04:40:51 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


I think that serb1389 has offered evidence that something did happen. As an Orthodox priest, Father Nebo (serb1389) would know what he is talking about.

Thanks.  I would say though that I'm open to being wrong b/c in the end only God knows what is truly going on, on a global level.  Also, I think we do need to keep in mind that this whole thing was started to have dialogue about this, not to have anyone be upset.  If anyone has an issue with what i've said, just tell me.  I think this is better than just saying "well he's a priest, he's always right".   angel
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« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2011, 04:44:27 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff? 

Also, partly i'm not revealing things b/c they are not my authority to reveal.  Confession, & the fact that the person who is the main backing behind what i'm saying & positing here doesn't know that i'm putting these things out here, keep me from really going into detail.  I pray that that is a good enough "logical " reason.  I'm not sure though.   Undecided
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« Reply #115 on: September 01, 2011, 04:55:51 PM »

Quote
Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff?

Father, I don't think anybody is disputing that this fellow told you what he told you, or accusing you of lying. The issue is the truthfulness of what he told you. *That* is what we have absolutely no evidence of, other than your secondhand recounting of things you did not personally witness. The fact that he told you these things isn't proof that they are true, no matter how trustworthy he may seem.

I've known people who are convinced they are vampires. If I posted here, claiming vampires were real, because a guy I knew told me he was one, I would hope nobody here would take my claims seriously. The same thing is going on here.
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« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2011, 05:01:56 PM »

Quote
Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff?

Father, I don't think anybody is disputing that this fellow told you what he told you, or accusing you of lying. The issue is the truthfulness of what he told you. *That* is what we have absolutely no evidence of, other than your secondhand recounting of things you did not personally witness. The fact that he told you these things isn't proof that they are true, no matter how trustworthy he may seem.

I've known people who are convinced they are vampires. If I posted here, claiming vampires were real, because a guy I knew told me he was one, I would hope nobody here would take my claims seriously. The same thing is going on here.


This is a phenomenal point.  That is why i'm trying to intersperse what I know about the spiritual unseen warfare that happens inside of each of us every day.  What this young man told me holds to be true of what I know about Orthodox Spirituality & the battle we face every day. 

Perhaps I am not doing such a great job of joining the two... Embarrassed
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« Reply #117 on: September 01, 2011, 05:04:33 PM »

From my experience of talking to someone whom I trust & was intimately involved with this, he told me that the stuff that happens in the US dojo's etc. isn't even close to the real stuff.  When you get to a certain level in whatever field you study, someone who is higher up in the field will approach you & ask you to study in China, etc. there they lead you deeper & deeper down the path (this is all according to him).  He told me that he saw people there doing all kinds of "extra-ordinary" things. 

Honestly, not only do I believe him, but It also makes sense from a spiritual point of view.  Like I said, you're opening yourself up unnecessarily.  I hope that makes sense. 

No offense, but that is ridiculous and patently false.

I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but Marc, where is your proof?

You have the burden of proof exactly backwards. Marc doesn't have to proof that something never happened. Rather, as the party making an affirmative claim, it is serb1389's burden to show that something did happen.

As an aside, the argument that "oh, the stuff in the strip malls is not the real deal. you have to be invited to the secret higher levels" is conspiracy theory talk.


Just because i'm intrigued by your argument.  How come my word is not enough proof?  Let your Yes be Yes, and all that good stuff? 

Be wise as serpents, and all that good stuff? I do not think I am being wise by believing everything I am told without question.

Things that have the "proof" of someone's word:

* Mary at Fatima
* the Loch Ness monster
* Elvis at Burger King
* leprechaun in the tree in Crichton, Alabama

This is not to say I think you are being intentional deceptive, or that the person who told you was. However, that doesn't mean he was not mistaken. Or, maybe he was relating something that he was told, that someone told him, that someone else said, and now we have the telephone game.
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« Reply #118 on: September 01, 2011, 05:22:47 PM »

Hold....back up back up back up...

Did you say this guy had Black Monkeys come out of his mouth when he was Baptized ?
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« Reply #119 on: September 01, 2011, 05:27:44 PM »

Hold....back up back up back up...

Did you say this guy had Black Monkeys come out of his mouth when he was Baptized ?

Now that would just be silly. Instead, black smokey demons came flying out of his mouth.  laugh
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« Reply #120 on: September 01, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: September 01, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley

I have no problem with anyone being skeptical!  I just think let's say that instead of saying "there's no way that's true".  Because most unfortunately, it is true. 
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« Reply #122 on: September 01, 2011, 05:53:35 PM »

Let's assume that what the young man told Father is true. It's just not common or general to the martial arts. Such experiences would be exceedingly rare and bizarre in the martial arts world. There is pretty much no chance that the average Westerner taking taijiquan or karate lessons is going to bump into this.

I do wonder, though, which martial arts practice would bring someone to meet the "highest members of Hinduism" (?).
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« Reply #123 on: September 01, 2011, 06:01:10 PM »

Let's assume that what the young man told Father is true. It's just not common or general to the martial arts. Such experiences would be exceedingly rare and bizarre in the martial arts world. There is pretty much no chance that the average Westerner taking taijiquan or karate lessons is going to bump into this.

I do wonder, though, which martial arts practice would bring someone to meet the "highest members of Hinduism" (?).

Maybe the Mysteries of the Yoga, like Dhalsim from Street Fighter. Perhaps the black smoke coming out of his mouth was his last Yoga Flame?

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« Reply #124 on: September 01, 2011, 08:28:20 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley

I have no problem with anyone being skeptical!  I just think let's say that instead of saying "there's no way that's true".  Because most unfortunately, it is true. 

Please listen carefully. No one, certainly not me, is overly skeptical about Demonic possession or experiences. Black Monkeys coming out of a person's mouth does perhaps strain credibility but I am perfectly open to hearing about such things.

What I am not too open to is second hand opinions about Karate that seek to damn it through ignorance. I can think of few things as wholesome or that builds up good character and all the virtues Christians seek than does Karate.

 Of course like anything there are extremes and exceptions and parts any reasonable person should steer clear of. However, I am speaking from long experience and you are not. It would be a shame to sully such a fine endeavor out of ignorance. Several things I have read here appear to be from people who clearly have little or no experience with Karate. I would suggest reserving extreme comments and outlandish claims to those things of which you know more about.   

Thank you and God Bless
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« Reply #125 on: September 01, 2011, 11:05:10 PM »

dear father serb1389, you're doing fine.
it's just that some people are sceptical, which is not always a bad thing.
i am less so, having had lots of supernatural experiences, not always pleasant ones!
if you find any other stuff about martial arts, post it.
i am 'listening' with interest.
 Smiley

I have no problem with anyone being skeptical!  I just think let's say that instead of saying "there's no way that's true".  Because most unfortunately, it is true. 

Please listen carefully. No one, certainly not me, is overly skeptical about Demonic possession or experiences. Black Monkeys coming out of a person's mouth does perhaps strain credibility but I am perfectly open to hearing about such things.

What I am not too open to is second hand opinions about Karate that seek to damn it through ignorance. I can think of few things as wholesome or that builds up good character and all the virtues Christians seek than does Karate.

 Of course like anything there are extremes and exceptions and parts any reasonable person should steer clear of. However, I am speaking from long experience and you are not.

I very much appreciate this post.  I also wonder why we could not have been so erudite & clear from the get-go.  I think it would have saved a lot of headaches, at least on my part. 

You are speaking of long experience in Karate I assume.  How do you know that I am not speaking from long experience in demonology & spiritual warfare?  Again...assumptions an discussion does not make. 

Quote
It would be a shame to sully such a fine endeavor out of ignorance.

I agree.  To be honest, this is the hardest part for me to argue with.  Unfortunately I do have to return to my whole repeated thought that I truly do believe that what this young man underwent was true, and that it makes a lot of sense from a spiritual perspective.

Quote
Several things I have read here appear to be from people who clearly have little or no experience with Karate. I would suggest reserving extreme comments and outlandish claims to those things of which you know more about.   

Thank you and God Bless

I'm not making outlandish claims.  I'm sharing with you a true story, from a person I trust, and making interpolating correlations to spiritual life.  I'm really not sure what is so outlandish, unless it is outlandish for you. 

If you also take your statement literally, you also do not have knowledge about the demonic aspects of Karate, so that puts us at about the same playing field.  We are both talking about something we both don't have personal knowledge of.  You and I also have only seen the positives of Karate.  Hence why this is a conversation & dialogue. 
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« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2011, 06:18:03 AM »

3 things:
1. it was 'black smokey objects' coming out of someone's mouth.
it was misquoted by someone.
this would be no stranger than sweet incense coming from a deceased saint (it has been known to happen) or a miracle of God's supernatural healing (it happens).
2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.
3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?
 Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: September 02, 2011, 06:22:13 AM »

A strip mall is a bunch of shops lined up in a long row, as opposed to a mall which is several floors of shops in one big building.
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« Reply #128 on: September 02, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »

Several things I have read here appear to be from people who clearly have little or no experience with Karate. I would suggest reserving extreme comments and outlandish claims to those things of which you know more about.   

Thank you and God Bless

I'm not making outlandish claims.  I'm sharing with you a true story, from a person I trust, and making interpolating correlations to spiritual life.  I'm really not sure what is so outlandish, unless it is outlandish for you.

This is not accurate. You may trust the person, but you have no idea if the story he told you was true. Please note that I am not accusing him of lying. He could have been mistaken or incorrect for some other reason.
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« Reply #129 on: September 02, 2011, 12:04:24 PM »

Im not going to say if the person is lying, mistaken or whatever. I wasn't there. All I know is that there could have been another trigger for these issues and he placed the blame on the wrong thing maybe?

PP
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« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2011, 12:19:12 PM »

After all the explanations this young man gave me (and other people) and the details he went into with conversations he'd had with some of the highest members of Hinduism, etc. in the Orient, it was truly unbelievable how much demonology permeates through these things & actions. 
"Hinduism" is a very vague term. I'm curious as to what tradition these "highest members of Hinduism" claim allegiance.

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« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2011, 12:19:35 PM »

3 things:
1. it was 'black smokey objects' coming out of someone's mouth.
it was misquoted by someone.
this would be no stranger than sweet incense coming from a deceased saint (it has been known to happen) or a miracle of God's supernatural healing (it happens).
2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.
3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?
 Smiley


I will address the last two points:

2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.

Have you seen the TV show "Jersey Shore"?




3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?

Yes, yes it is. Naked shopping . God Bless America

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« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2011, 12:24:03 PM »

3 things:
1. it was 'black smokey objects' coming out of someone's mouth.
it was misquoted by someone.
this would be no stranger than sweet incense coming from a deceased saint (it has been known to happen) or a miracle of God's supernatural healing (it happens).
2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.
3. again i need my british/american english dictionary.
i am hoping a strip mall isn't somewhere you do your shopping while naked, can anyone tell me what it is?
 Smiley


I will address the last two points:

2. the karate and ninja cartoons (like the one posted by sauron) are deliberately drawn in order to look horrible and scary. i think that in philippians when it says 'whatever is noble, true, pure, lovely (etc.) think on these things, this does not include spending our time looking at horrible things and contemplating violence.

Have you seen the TV show "Jersey Shore"?

I don't think Dhalsim looks horrible or scary.  Huh

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« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2011, 02:01:42 PM »

« Last Edit: Today at 01:02:04 PM by Asteriktos »
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« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2011, 03:37:48 PM »

After all the explanations this young man gave me (and other people) and the details he went into with conversations he'd had with some of the highest members of Hinduism, etc. in the Orient, it was truly unbelievable how much demonology permeates through these things & actions. 
"Hinduism" is a very vague term. I'm curious as to what tradition these "highest members of Hinduism" claim allegiance.



I'd be curious, as well. "Hinduism" is a catch-all term for the native religions of India, and it's not monolithic, with a hierarchical clergy, like Christianity is.Saying "the highest members of Hinduism" is about as specific as saying "the highest members of the Balkans".  People just believe and practice whatever their families do. A Brahmin in rural Gujurat, who's never in his life had to lift anything heavier than a spoon, and can recite the Vedas backwards and forwards, and the dalit sweeper who scoops out the Brahmin's latrine with her bare hands, and goes home to light a lamp in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary that her great-aunt found on a road 50 years ago, are equally Hindu, and will equally be able to inform you about Hinduism.
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« Reply #135 on: September 02, 2011, 03:51:10 PM »

Don't you guys know about the Hindu pope?

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« Reply #136 on: September 02, 2011, 04:01:57 PM »

Isnt this the Hindu pope?



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« Reply #137 on: September 02, 2011, 05:57:12 PM »

sauron, it has a big muscular chest and a frown and it is breathing fire. i think this is more for the purposes of violence then for lighting the barbeque.  Wink
of course i am not scared to look at it but it is not a pretty sight!
marc1152, no i did not see that show, most usa tv shows are not shown outside usa!
and also i don't have a tv (too busy going on internet forums to watch tv)!
 Wink
biro, thanks a lot for the info, i am relieved it's not a new craze to shop naked.
we couldn't do that in uk anyway, too cold and it rains a lot.
 Wink
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« Reply #138 on: September 02, 2011, 06:07:49 PM »

we couldn't do that in uk anyway, too cold and it rains a lot.

Not to get too graphic, but that would actually enhance the experience for any male voyeurs...  Cheesy
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« Reply #139 on: September 04, 2011, 12:16:53 PM »

actually, when i lived in brighton, they had a naked bike ride.
it was summer, and, for a change, it wasn't raining.
but it was a bit gross (uk english for disgusting and not very beautiful) to see naked men and women biking through the main shopping area.
i never found out what they were trying to achieve, i think they were saying that our way-too-liberal society is not yet liberal enough!

which takes me (sort of) back to the topic,
anyone know if sumo wrestling has a religious basis?
or is it just fat men who like to show off their wobbly bits and who also are not very keen on wearing too many clothes!
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« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2011, 01:11:20 PM »

I have heard that sumo wrestling has some basis in Shinto ritual. Sometimes it's on TV in the U.S., and I enjoy watching just for the spectacle.  Smiley
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« Reply #141 on: September 04, 2011, 03:13:21 PM »

i never found out what they were trying to achieve, i think they were saying that our way-too-liberal society is not yet liberal enough!

Brighton's specialty!
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« Reply #142 on: September 04, 2011, 03:28:00 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!
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« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2011, 03:42:49 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!

Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.

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« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2011, 04:51:51 PM »

wow, are u the sumo size?
coz that involves huge amounts of exercise, not just eating.
it's one of the (many) sports i would not be good at!
what is the connection between sumo and the shinto religion?
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« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2011, 05:50:48 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.
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« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2011, 06:38:08 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.

The Japanese didn't seem to think that this year's scandal was very polite or merely "looked rigged".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/asia/05sumo.html

Yes yes, they are oh-so-inscrutable.

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« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2011, 06:42:18 PM »

wow, are u the sumo size?
coz that involves huge amounts of exercise, not just eating.
it's one of the (many) sports i would not be good at!
what is the connection between sumo and the shinto religion?

I am hardly "sumo size", although they aren't all blimps. My favorite sumo wrestler when I followed the sport at all was Terao, who was considerably smaller than most of his opponents.

Sumo training is the most exhausting workout I have ever had.

Here is a decent summary of the Shinto/sumo connections:
http://www.sumotalk.com/history.htm

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« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2011, 07:47:55 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.

The Japanese didn't seem to think that this year's scandal was very polite or merely "looked rigged".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/asia/05sumo.html

Yes yes, they are oh-so-inscrutable.



You must admit it can be difficult for us to divine their motivations and thoughts at times, haha.
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« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2011, 08:21:50 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.

The Japanese didn't seem to think that this year's scandal was very polite or merely "looked rigged".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/asia/05sumo.html

Yes yes, they are oh-so-inscrutable.



You must admit it can be difficult for us to divine their motivations and thoughts at times, haha.

I think it is an acquired skill. Any such issues I have with my wife I attribute to her being a woman rather than Japanese.  laugh

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« Reply #150 on: September 04, 2011, 09:17:31 PM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.

The Japanese didn't seem to think that this year's scandal was very polite or merely "looked rigged".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/asia/05sumo.html

Yes yes, they are oh-so-inscrutable.



As the article says, this is not at all like American Wrestling. Uncovering a scandal like this one  is rare. What isnt rare is favoring a popular champion so he doesn't lose face.

Stage-managed bouts may be a staple of American professional wrestling, but sumo is Japan’s national sport, in a different league from World Wrestling Entertainment, many Japanese would say. Though allegations of match-fixing have accompanied sumo for decades, no wrestler has ever been caught orchestrating a match.  
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 09:18:04 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #151 on: September 04, 2011, 10:48:14 PM »

I just wanted to let you all know that b/c of a family situation I will not be able to respond to this thread until after Sept. 18th.  I also havn't read any posts since about 2 days ago on this topic.  Please forgive me & I look forward to continuing the convo after the 18th. 

- Serb1389. 
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« Reply #152 on: September 05, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.

The Japanese didn't seem to think that this year's scandal was very polite or merely "looked rigged".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/asia/05sumo.html

Yes yes, they are oh-so-inscrutable.



As the article says, this is not at all like American Wrestling. Uncovering a scandal like this one  is rare. What isnt rare is favoring a popular champion so he doesn't lose face.

Stage-managed bouts may be a staple of American professional wrestling, but sumo is Japan’s national sport, in a different league from World Wrestling Entertainment, many Japanese would say. Though allegations of match-fixing have accompanied sumo for decades, no wrestler has ever been caught orchestrating a match.  

That's my point. One of the reason's for sumo's waning popularity over the past several decades has been that everyone knows its rigged, so what's the point? The Freakonomics guys did not really surprise anyone.

Also, Japan's national sport is baseball.

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« Reply #153 on: September 05, 2011, 10:01:14 AM »

interesting.
i went to a shinto wedding in japan. there was no attempt to provide any translation (i'm sorry, my japanese is only good enough to find the exit or the toilet and to check the name of the strange seafood i'm eating).

i asked my friend later what had happened, but she wasn't sure. no-one there was particularly religious, they just thought it would be nice to have a religious wedding.
all i could work out was that it involved clapping to 'summon the spirits' and drinking sake.
i refrained from clapping, but the sake was nice!


Most Japanese, like most Americans, are not necessarily religious but will do religious things. For example, have a Shinto wedding or a Buddhist funeral. This is why you will often find Japanese telling you that they are Shinto and Buddhist, if asked.

There is certainly some connection between Shinto and sumo, although one is certainly not required to be a follower of Shinto in order to compete. I once participated in a sumo tournament at Ise Grand Shrine. The nice thing about participating in amateur sumo is that unlike professional sumo, it is not rigged.




Well...What looks rigged to us is merely good etiquette to them.

The Japanese didn't seem to think that this year's scandal was very polite or merely "looked rigged".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/asia/05sumo.html

Yes yes, they are oh-so-inscrutable.



As the article says, this is not at all like American Wrestling. Uncovering a scandal like this one  is rare. What isnt rare is favoring a popular champion so he doesn't lose face.

Stage-managed bouts may be a staple of American professional wrestling, but sumo is Japan’s national sport, in a different league from World Wrestling Entertainment, many Japanese would say. Though allegations of match-fixing have accompanied sumo for decades, no wrestler has ever been caught orchestrating a match.  

That's my point. One of the reason's for sumo's waning popularity over the past several decades has been that everyone knows its rigged, so what's the point? The Freakonomics guys did not really surprise anyone.

Also, Japan's national sport is baseball.



They should combine the two sports.. Oh wait....That's Football, isnt it?

{{ made myself laugh  Tongue   }}}
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« Reply #154 on: September 05, 2011, 06:06:44 PM »

You must admit it can be difficult for us to divine their motivations and thoughts at times, haha.
That post reminded me of Sara Backer's American Fuji.

Can't really compare it to anything because it's one of my only fiction books about Japanese culture (besides Yoshiko Uchida's books, which are about Japanese-Americans), but her commentary on Japanese culture is hilarious. It's a fiction book but some of the characters are hysterical.
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« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2011, 11:29:25 AM »

You must admit it can be difficult for us to divine their motivations and thoughts at times, haha.
That post reminded me of Sara Backer's American Fuji.

Can't really compare it to anything because it's one of my only fiction books about Japanese culture (besides Yoshiko Uchida's books, which are about Japanese-Americans), but her commentary on Japanese culture is hilarious. It's a fiction book but some of the characters are hysterical.

Thank you and OK!
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