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Author Topic: SSPX Traditionalist leader is called to attend talks with Vatican officials  (Read 3764 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: August 28, 2011, 05:37:37 PM »

Is reunion near or not at all?

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103351.htm


SSPX-VATICAN Aug-23-2011 (410 words) xxxi

Traditionalist leader is called to attend talks with Vatican officials

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The head of a group of traditionalist Catholics will meet with the Vatican Sept. 14 to continue a series of doctrinal discussions.

The Vatican confirmed Aug. 23 that Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the Society of St. Pius X, will travel to Rome in mid-September to meet with U.S. Cardinal William J. Levada, the head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The superior of the society in Germany, Father Franz Schmidberger, said on the group's website that the meeting would discuss the results of doctrinal dialogues from the past two years.

The priest, who is not expected to attend the September meeting, said the discussions will focus on the society's "point of view of canon law," adding that the atmosphere of previous talks had been "very good."...

« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 05:38:13 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 05:40:08 PM »

I hope something good comes out of it.
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 06:54:02 PM »

Most interesting would be the type of coffee and donuts served at said meeting.  Or will they serve more continental pastries as food?  Would they also serve tea?  I'm not sure, but regardless, meetings of this type, regardless of who is hosting them, usually only resolve in handshakes and hopefully a decent luncheon.  People like meetings, I don't know why, why can't people have one big meeting and resolve things, anything, instead of having tons of meetings and wasting precious oil flying to them?
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 08:17:18 PM »

Most interesting would be the type of coffee and donuts served at said meeting.  Or will they serve more continental pastries as food?  Would they also serve tea?  I'm not sure, but regardless, meetings of this type, regardless of who is hosting them, usually only resolve in handshakes and hopefully a decent luncheon.  People like meetings, I don't know why, why can't people have one big meeting and resolve things, anything, instead of having tons of meetings and wasting precious oil flying to them?
Your idea is a good one. I'd like to see it applied  to the Orthodox-Catholic committees and meetings. Why not have one big Orthodox=Catholic meeting and resolve everything, rather than drawing things out over  hundreds and hundreds of years?  
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2011, 08:31:54 PM »

Why not have one big Orthodox=Catholic meeting and resolve everything, rather than drawing things out over  hundreds and hundreds of years?  
Methinks it would be a very long meeting indeed. The Council of Trent lasted nearly 19 years, and everyone there was already in agreement.
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 04:01:44 AM »

I honestly don't hold out much hope for any type of reconciliation.  The SSPX has stated again and again that they will not accept the reforms of Vatican II or even a more conservative interpretation of them by the Vatican.  They only want the repeal of that Council and a return to the pre concillior, Thomastic, integrist form of Catholicism to which they still cling.  I highly doubt that the Vatican is just going to jettison decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments in order to appease a small group of dissidents who, outside of France really don't amount to more then a hill of beans in the worldwide Catholic communion.

But who know for sure?
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 09:18:17 AM »

What decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments? 

The Church should do all it can for all in the Catholic communion, even those who are small in number.  The FSSP was first comprised of those who left the FSSPX after the excommunications in the late 80's.  The Vatican more or less has turned the ear and eye away from them.  You won't hear an FSSP priest denounce VII from the pulpit...but you also won't hear one praise it.  Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.  I'm not sure if there is a better way to reject VII than that.  My point is, I am very hopeful that the SSPX will be in full communion (though it may already be), and I can see how they would be allowed to.  If Pope Benedict XVI were not the current Pope, I'm not sure this would even be a possibility.  He has always been sympathetic to traditionalists and Lefebvre supporters.

If they are "allowed" back in the Church, what does that say about the Vatican?  Formally accepting a group that regards the Vatican as in error, hmmmm...
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 10:53:41 AM »

Indeed the traditional societies which are already "in" the Church are allowed to ignore Vatican II. And why not? It was a "pastoral" council (Paul VI's words) which made no dogmatic definitions. Though some think the jury is still out on it, in their view it was a pastoral disaster.* I'm inclined to agree with them.

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero.  The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet so many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of super-dogma which takes away the importance of all the rest. 
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

"Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

* Of course one of the most disastrous pastoral results of this merely pastoral Council was the noxious idea that it had changed the Catholic Church's teachings and even identity---as witnessed by Robb's comment above.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 11:11:10 AM »

Indeed the traditional societies which are already "in" the Church are allowed to ignore Vatican II. And why not? It was a "pastoral" council (Paul VI's words) which made no dogmatic definitions. Though some think the jury is still out on it, in their view it was a pastoral disaster.* I'm inclined to agree with them.

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero.  The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet so many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of super-dogma which takes away the importance of all the rest. 
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

"Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

* Of course one of the most disastrous pastoral results of this merely pastoral Council was the noxious idea that it had changed the Catholic Church's teachings and even identity---as witnessed by Robb's comment above.
LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 11:13:13 AM »

What decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments? 

The Church should do all it can for all in the Catholic communion, even those who are small in number.  The FSSP was first comprised of those who left the FSSPX after the excommunications in the late 80's.  The Vatican more or less has turned the ear and eye away from them.  You won't hear an FSSP priest denounce VII from the pulpit...but you also won't hear one praise it.  Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.  I'm not sure if there is a better way to reject VII than that.  My point is, I am very hopeful that the SSPX will be in full communion (though it may already be), and I can see how they would be allowed to.  If Pope Benedict XVI were not the current Pope, I'm not sure this would even be a possibility.  He has always been sympathetic to traditionalists and Lefebvre supporters.

If they are "allowed" back in the Church, what does that say about the Vatican?  Formally accepting a group that regards the Vatican as in error, hmmmm...
how are said groups going to justify formally accepting communion with a Vatican they regard in error?
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 11:44:15 AM »

LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?

Certain Modernists would have you think so!

I think you EO are smart to be very careful about calling a general council.

My one hope is that the post-Vatican II disaster will provide the opportunity to finally settle the Modernist crisis which was simmering for a very long time before. You've got to drain the pus before you heal the wound.
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »

Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.

Are those priests allowed to work in regular diocesean parishes?
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 12:06:32 PM »

Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.

Are those priests allowed to work in regular diocesean parishes?

Yes, but under the diocesan bishops as opposed to "independent" bishops like in the SSPX, SSPV, etc.  Hence, they can't be very outspoken of the diocese or its practices (VII).  Most bishops that allow FSSP priests are on the conservative side anyway, so it usually isn't an issue.  Most work in a parish with regular diocesan priests, but there are several parishes run solely by FSSP priests.
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 12:13:45 PM »

What decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments? 

The Church should do all it can for all in the Catholic communion, even those who are small in number.  The FSSP was first comprised of those who left the FSSPX after the excommunications in the late 80's.  The Vatican more or less has turned the ear and eye away from them.  You won't hear an FSSP priest denounce VII from the pulpit...but you also won't hear one praise it.  Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.  I'm not sure if there is a better way to reject VII than that.  My point is, I am very hopeful that the SSPX will be in full communion (though it may already be), and I can see how they would be allowed to.  If Pope Benedict XVI were not the current Pope, I'm not sure this would even be a possibility.  He has always been sympathetic to traditionalists and Lefebvre supporters.

If they are "allowed" back in the Church, what does that say about the Vatican?  Formally accepting a group that regards the Vatican as in error, hmmmm...
how are said groups going to justify formally accepting communion with a Vatican they regard in error?

It isn't really the Vatican they are looking for communion with, but the Pope.  Its a touchy situation for them (meaning former SSPX priests), so I'm sure they are biting the bullet to some extent.  They must see enough good/promise in the Vatican and the Pope, despite those they believe are in error.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 12:19:49 PM »

LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?

Certain Modernists would have you think so!

I think you EO are smart to be very careful about calling a general council.

My one hope is that the post-Vatican II disaster will provide the opportunity to finally settle the Modernist crisis which was simmering for a very long time before. You've got to drain the pus before you heal the wound.
let's hope so, though not everything Vatican II did (e.g. breaking the monopoly of Latin in services) was bad.
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2011, 12:20:36 PM »

What decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments?  

The Church should do all it can for all in the Catholic communion, even those who are small in number.  The FSSP was first comprised of those who left the FSSPX after the excommunications in the late 80's.  The Vatican more or less has turned the ear and eye away from them.  You won't hear an FSSP priest denounce VII from the pulpit...but you also won't hear one praise it.  Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.  I'm not sure if there is a better way to reject VII than that.  My point is, I am very hopeful that the SSPX will be in full communion (though it may already be), and I can see how they would be allowed to.  If Pope Benedict XVI were not the current Pope, I'm not sure this would even be a possibility.  He has always been sympathetic to traditionalists and Lefebvre supporters.

If they are "allowed" back in the Church, what does that say about the Vatican?  Formally accepting a group that regards the Vatican as in error, hmmmm...
how are said groups going to justify formally accepting communion with a Vatican they regard in error?

It isn't really the Vatican they are looking for communion with, but the Pope.  Its a touchy situation for them (meaning former SSPX priests), so I'm sure they are biting the bullet to some extent.  They must see enough good/promise in the Vatican and the Pope, despite those they believe are in error.
isn't SSPX sede vancantish?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 12:24:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2011, 01:03:19 PM »

I honestly don't hold out much hope for any type of reconciliation.  The SSPX has stated again and again that they will not accept the reforms of Vatican II or even a more conservative interpretation of them by the Vatican.  They only want the repeal of that Council and a return to the pre concillior, Thomastic, integrist form of Catholicism to which they still cling.  I highly doubt that the Vatican is just going to jettison decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments in order to appease a small group of dissidents who, outside of France really don't amount to more then a hill of beans in the worldwide Catholic communion.

But who know for sure?
But if they allowed the Eastern Catholics to keep their theology as per the Union of Brest, they why would they not allow the same for the SSPX?
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2011, 01:05:11 PM »

LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?

Certain Modernists would have you think so!

I think you EO are smart to be very careful about calling a general council.

My one hope is that the post-Vatican II disaster will provide the opportunity to finally settle the Modernist crisis which was simmering for a very long time before. You've got to drain the pus before you heal the wound.
let's hope so, though not everything Vatican II did (e.g. breaking the monopoly of Latin in services) was bad.
Knowing latiin is a great help in learning many other languages.
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2011, 01:07:35 PM »

What decades of theological, liturgical, and moral developments?  

The Church should do all it can for all in the Catholic communion, even those who are small in number.  The FSSP was first comprised of those who left the FSSPX after the excommunications in the late 80's.  The Vatican more or less has turned the ear and eye away from them.  You won't hear an FSSP priest denounce VII from the pulpit...but you also won't hear one praise it.  Most of the priests in the FSSP refuse to say the Novus Ordo, and yet they are still fully in communion.  I'm not sure if there is a better way to reject VII than that.  My point is, I am very hopeful that the SSPX will be in full communion (though it may already be), and I can see how they would be allowed to.  If Pope Benedict XVI were not the current Pope, I'm not sure this would even be a possibility.  He has always been sympathetic to traditionalists and Lefebvre supporters.

If they are "allowed" back in the Church, what does that say about the Vatican?  Formally accepting a group that regards the Vatican as in error, hmmmm...
how are said groups going to justify formally accepting communion with a Vatican they regard in error?

It isn't really the Vatican they are looking for communion with, but the Pope.  Its a touchy situation for them (meaning former SSPX priests), so I'm sure they are biting the bullet to some extent.  They must see enough good/promise in the Vatican and the Pope, despite those they believe are in error.
isn't SSPX sede vancantish?
The SSPX has prayers for the Pope at every Mass. For them, the Pope is like their father, but a father who has strayed a bit from the course.
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2011, 01:08:46 PM »

LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?

Certain Modernists would have you think so!

I think you EO are smart to be very careful about calling a general council.

My one hope is that the post-Vatican II disaster will provide the opportunity to finally settle the Modernist crisis which was simmering for a very long time before. You've got to drain the pus before you heal the wound.
let's hope so, though not everything Vatican II did (e.g. breaking the monopoly of Latin in services) was bad.

Indeed, there had been movement toward the vernacular for decades before the Council. For example, Rome gave permission for Catholics in Germany to use some German back in the 1940s. The Council document, in allowing for some (not all) vernacular, was only confirming a movement that had been going on since the 19th century.

Total vernacularization, with crappy inaccurate translations? Not good, but the new accurate English translation is almost here---England and Wales is instituting it this Sunday. We in the USA will have to wait till November.

Of course, Latin should stick around, and it will.
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2011, 01:10:54 PM »

Indeed, I have been to a number of SSPX chapels, and they all have large portraits of Benedict XVI in the narthex.

I just got an e-mail from them reporting that Pope Benedict XVI has just made St. John of Avila a Doctor of the Church. John of Avila was canonized by Paul VI in 1970.

Doesn't sound too sedevacantist to me.

The "Traditio.com" folks, however, are. If you notice, they call the Holy Father "Benedict-Ratzinger" and most priests "Novus Ordo presbyters." At the local SSPX chapel here, one of the priests was ordained in the Novus Ordo rite (and not re-ordained), and the head priest of the chapel has a policy of denying Holy Communion to any layperson who refuses to accept that this priest's Masses are valid.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 01:15:03 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2011, 01:16:02 PM »

LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?

Certain Modernists would have you think so!

I think you EO are smart to be very careful about calling a general council.

My one hope is that the post-Vatican II disaster will provide the opportunity to finally settle the Modernist crisis which was simmering for a very long time before. You've got to drain the pus before you heal the wound.
let's hope so, though not everything Vatican II did (e.g. breaking the monopoly of Latin in services) was bad.
Knowing latiin is a great help in learning many other languages.
so's Greek. Your point?

You assUme, of course, they understood the Latin.

If I want language instruction, I'll go to Berlitz, not the Tiber.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 01:16:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2011, 02:17:31 PM »

LOL.  Wasn't that the lesson, nay dogma, it taught?

Certain Modernists would have you think so!

I think you EO are smart to be very careful about calling a general council.

My one hope is that the post-Vatican II disaster will provide the opportunity to finally settle the Modernist crisis which was simmering for a very long time before. You've got to drain the pus before you heal the wound.
let's hope so, though not everything Vatican II did (e.g. breaking the monopoly of Latin in services) was bad.
Knowing latiin is a great help in learning many other languages.
so's Greek. Your point?

You assUme, of course, they understood the Latin.

If I want language instruction, I'll go to Berlitz, not the Tiber.
Well, it has been known for a long time that classics majors perform considerably better than modern language majors. 
In 1997 Latin students had a mean score of 647 on the SAT,
142 points higher than the national average of 505. Furthermore, Latin students outperformed students of all other languages.
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2011, 02:56:15 PM »

Never thought someone would use SAT scores to argue for a Latin mass. Only on the internets!
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2011, 02:58:49 PM »

Never thought someone would use SAT scores to argue for a Latin mass. Only on the internets!
It provides solid and irrefutable quantitative proof of the value of studying Latin over modern languages. 
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 03:38:05 PM »

Never thought someone would use SAT scores to argue for a Latin mass. Only on the internets!
It provides solid and irrefutable quantitative proof of the value of studying Latin over modern languages. 
It provides correlative evidence that students who take Latin tend to be smart.
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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2011, 03:59:53 PM »

Never thought someone would use SAT scores to argue for a Latin mass. Only on the internets!
It provides solid and irrefutable quantitative proof of the value of studying Latin over modern languages. 
It provides correlative evidence that students who take Latin tend to be smart.
Yeah, well, of course you can go in circles arguing about this, but it remains a fact that students who study latin, consistently outperform students who study modern languages (to the exclusion of latin). And there are other reasons also why it is advantageous to study Latin such as for example:
Knowledge of Latin increases English vocabulary.
Knowing Latin makes it  easier to learn the grammar and
vocabulary of the modern Romance languages.
The cultural experience of the ancient roman world is relevant to us today.

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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2011, 04:59:59 PM »

But, as YoungFogey likes to say, It’s Not About Latin™.

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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 05:29:38 PM »

Vatican II most certainly did change much about the Catholic Church placing new emphasis on the liturgy and communal participation in it.  V II also was not just a pastoral council, but did define at least two dogma's.  The whole myths that Vatican II was just pastoral and thus can be routinely ignored by the RC faithful is a deception which is fostered by the disgruntled traditionalsit and their ilk and does not hold true to Catholic teaching.  No RC is free to ignore or reject the decisions of any ecumenical council, even if most of it is pastoral in nature.

Also I've heard FSSP and other "approved" clergy openly criticize Vatican II from their pulpits.  People like this love to have the official rubber stamp of approval from Rome for themselves as justification of their "communion" with the Vatican, yet they freely criticize and backstab their benefactors all the time.  What kind of "loyalty" is this?
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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2011, 05:36:56 PM »

Here is an article (From Sedevacantist group, but with good arguments made) That RC's MUST accept Vatican II and all her decrees as legitimate or they are not true Catholics.  Any group, such as the SSPX which does not accept Vatican II or cast doubt or suspicion on its teachings is not or never will be considered as truly Catholic.  The Pope of Rome could validate and re validate them a hundred thousand times over, yet they would still be outside the universal Catholic communion if they did not accept and obey the theology, liturgy, and morality of Vatican Council II

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/38_V2infallible.pdf

Also:

Paul VI says Vatican II is to be Religiously Observed

Paul VI, “Papal” Brief declaring Council Closed, Dec. 8, 1965:
“At last all which regards the holy Ecumenical Council has, with the help of God, been
accomplished and ALL THE CONSTITUTIONS, DECREES, DECLARATIONS, AND
VOTES HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE DELIBERATION OF THE SYNOD AND
PROMULGATED BY US. Therefore, we decided to close for all intents and purposes,
WITH OUR APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY, this same Ecumenical Council called by our
predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued
by us after his death. WE DECIDE MOREOVER THAT ALL THAT HAS BEEN
ESTABLISHED SYNODALLY IS TO BE RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVED BY ALL THE
FAITHFUL, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church… WE HAVE
APPROVED AND ESTABLISHED THESE THINGS, DECREEING THAT THE
PRESENT LETTERS ARE AND REMAIN STABLE AND VALID, AND ARE TO
HAVE LEGAL EFFECTIVENESS, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and
complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern
or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, ALL
EFFORTS CONTRARY TO THESE THINGS BY WHOEVER OR WHATEVER
AUTHORITY, KNOWINGLY OR IN IGNORANCE, BE INVALID AND
WORTHLESS FROM NOW ON. Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the]
ring of the fisherman, December 8… the year 1965, the third year of our Pontificate.”
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 05:39:15 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2011, 05:55:40 PM »

Here is an article (From Sedevacantist group, but with good arguments made) That RC's MUST accept Vatican II and all her decrees as legitimate or they are not true Catholics.  Any group, such as the SSPX which does not accept Vatican II or cast doubt or suspicion on its teachings is not or never will be considered as truly Catholic.  The Pope of Rome could validate and re validate them a hundred thousand times over, yet they would still be outside the universal Catholic communion if they did not accept and obey the theology, liturgy, and morality of Vatican Council II

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/38_V2infallible.pdf

Also:

Paul VI says Vatican II is to be Religiously Observed

Paul VI, “Papal” Brief declaring Council Closed, Dec. 8, 1965:
“At last all which regards the holy Ecumenical Council has, with the help of God, been
accomplished and ALL THE CONSTITUTIONS, DECREES, DECLARATIONS, AND
VOTES HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE DELIBERATION OF THE SYNOD AND
PROMULGATED BY US. Therefore, we decided to close for all intents and purposes,
WITH OUR APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY, this same Ecumenical Council called by our
predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued
by us after his death. WE DECIDE MOREOVER THAT ALL THAT HAS BEEN
ESTABLISHED SYNODALLY IS TO BE RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVED BY ALL THE
FAITHFUL, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church… WE HAVE
APPROVED AND ESTABLISHED THESE THINGS, DECREEING THAT THE
PRESENT LETTERS ARE AND REMAIN STABLE AND VALID, AND ARE TO
HAVE LEGAL EFFECTIVENESS, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and
complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern
or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, ALL
EFFORTS CONTRARY TO THESE THINGS BY WHOEVER OR WHATEVER
AUTHORITY, KNOWINGLY OR IN IGNORANCE, BE INVALID AND
WORTHLESS FROM NOW ON. Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the]
ring of the fisherman, December 8… the year 1965, the third year of our Pontificate.”
as a question, do Catholics have to accept religiously and faithfully everything that the Pope says and does, such as for example, kissing the Koran? How many times a day do you follow the example of the Pope and bow down and kiss the Koran?
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2011, 06:09:28 PM »

I honestly don't hold out much hope for any type of reconciliation.  The SSPX has stated again and again that they will not accept the reforms of Vatican II or even a more conservative interpretation of them by the Vatican.  They only want the repeal of that Council which

And good for them. Vatican II was horrible mistake that turned the Catholic Church into a joke. I used to be a RC but the crappy new Mass and heterodoxy from the pulpit (even by Catholic heresy standards) drove me into the local SSPX Chapel and that eventually led me to Orthodoxy. I became Orthodox because I felt after much study and prayer that the Catholic Church has throughout history just toyed around with doctrine. Pope has contradicted Pope, council contradicted council all leading up to the hippie flower power mess of Vatican II. Hopefully the RC and SSPX will get together and reject all of the RC heresies through the centuries starting with the Filioque.
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2011, 06:09:56 PM »

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff



So, then,
if anyone says that
the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
not only in matters of
faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him be anathema.
Return to Table of Contents



Wherefore we teach and declare that,
by divine ordinance,
the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that
this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both
episcopal and
immediate.
Both clergy and faithful,
of whatever rite and dignity,
both singly and collectively,
are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
not only in matters concerning faith and morals,
but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.

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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2011, 06:10:48 PM »

Here is an article (From Sedevacantist group, but with good arguments made) That RC's MUST accept Vatican II and all her decrees as legitimate or they are not true Catholics.  Any group, such as the SSPX which does not accept Vatican II or cast doubt or suspicion on its teachings is not or never will be considered as truly Catholic.  The Pope of Rome could validate and re validate them a hundred thousand times over, yet they would still be outside the universal Catholic communion if they did not accept and obey the theology, liturgy, and morality of Vatican Council II

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/38_V2infallible.pdf

Also:

Paul VI says Vatican II is to be Religiously Observed

Paul VI, “Papal” Brief declaring Council Closed, Dec. 8, 1965:
“At last all which regards the holy Ecumenical Council has, with the help of God, been
accomplished and ALL THE CONSTITUTIONS, DECREES, DECLARATIONS, AND
VOTES HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE DELIBERATION OF THE SYNOD AND
PROMULGATED BY US. Therefore, we decided to close for all intents and purposes,
WITH OUR APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY, this same Ecumenical Council called by our
predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued
by us after his death. WE DECIDE MOREOVER THAT ALL THAT HAS BEEN
ESTABLISHED SYNODALLY IS TO BE RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVED BY ALL THE
FAITHFUL, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church… WE HAVE
APPROVED AND ESTABLISHED THESE THINGS, DECREEING THAT THE
PRESENT LETTERS ARE AND REMAIN STABLE AND VALID, AND ARE TO
HAVE LEGAL EFFECTIVENESS, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and
complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern
or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, ALL
EFFORTS CONTRARY TO THESE THINGS BY WHOEVER OR WHATEVER
AUTHORITY, KNOWINGLY OR IN IGNORANCE, BE INVALID AND
WORTHLESS FROM NOW ON. Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the]
ring of the fisherman, December 8… the year 1965, the third year of our Pontificate.”

Yes but you see the Pope before him John XXIII said it was just a pastoral council. (See what I mean about contradictions ?)
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2011, 06:13:19 PM »

Yes but you see the Pope before him John XXIII said it was just a pastoral council. (See what I mean about contradictions ?)

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/38_V2infallible.pdf

Objection #1) At his speech to open Vatican II, John XXIII said that Vatican II was to be a
“pastoral council.” This proves that Vatican II was not infallible!
Response: This is not true. John XXIII did not say in his opening speech at the council that
Vatican II was to be a pastoral council. Here is what John XXIII actually said:
John XXIII, Opening Speech at Vatican II, Oct. 11, 1962: “The substance of the ancient
deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the
latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything
being measured in the forms and proportions OF A MAGISTERIUM WHICH IS
PREDOMINANTLY PASTORAL IN CHARACTER.”9

Here we see that John XXIII did not say that Vatican II would be a pastoral council. He said
that it would reflect the Church’s Magisterium, which is predominantly pastoral in character. So,
despite the incredibly widespread myth, the truth is that John XXIII never even called Vatican II a
pastoral council in his opening speech. By the way, even if John XXIII had called Vatican II a
pastoral council in his opening speech, this wouldn’t mean that it is not infallible. To describe
something as pastoral does not mean ipso facto (by that very fact) that it’s not infallible. This is
proven by John XXIII himself in the above speech when he described the Magisterium as
“pastoral,” and yet it’s de fide (of the faith) that the Magisterium is infallible. Therefore, even if
John XXIII did describe Vatican II as a pastoral council (which he did not) this would not prove
that it is not infallible.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 06:13:43 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2011, 06:58:18 PM »

Bah! Whatever fallible or not. The decrees from the council counteract what St Pius X wrote in his encyclicle Pascendi and the Syllabus of errors of Blessed Pius IX. So who is right?
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2011, 07:22:22 PM »

Pope Gregory VII drew up a dictus that stated in part:

1 The Pope can be judged by no man on earth
2 THE ROMAN CHURCH HAS NEVER ERRED AND CAN NEVER ERR UNTIL THE END OF TIME (though JPII apologized for everything and anything the Church did)
3 He can depose Kings and emperors and absolve their subjects allegiance to the temporal power.
 
1 was a to assert himself over councils before Gregory VII councils had final authority and could depose Popes.

2 if this be the case was not the Church right in saying that outside the Holy Roman Church there is no salvation? How about the encyclicals that say that my Church the Orthodox are not true Churches this was said as late as Pius XI. What about all the encyclicals that condemned ecumenism, liberalism, religious liberty, or any of the other things in Pius IX's syllabus of errors? Or how about Pius X's encyclical Pascendi. Pascendi and the Syllabus condemn all that was done at Vatican II. THen Fr. Ratzinger went so far as to call the council decrees a "counter syllabus". But wait I thought the church could never err until the end of time. Was Vatican II right or Gregory the VII and Pius IX and Pius X in their encyclicals?

3 this was mere politics as the Pope was having a hissy fit with the current Holy Roman emperor.

In all of this we see the folly of Vatican II and the RC structure in general.
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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2011, 07:25:26 PM »

All of this I am sure can be explained away by that lovely RC thing of "the development of doctrine. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2011, 08:28:12 PM »

Indeed the traditional societies which are already "in" the Church are allowed to ignore Vatican II. And why not? It was a "pastoral" council (Paul VI's words) which made no dogmatic definitions. Though some think the jury is still out on it, in their view it was a pastoral disaster.* I'm inclined to agree with them.

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero.  The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet so many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of super-dogma which takes away the importance of all the rest. 
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

"Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

* Of course one of the most disastrous pastoral results of this merely pastoral Council was the noxious idea that it had changed the Catholic Church's teachings and even identity---as witnessed by Robb's comment above.
This ^
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2011, 09:50:03 PM »

Indeed the traditional societies which are already "in" the Church are allowed to ignore Vatican II. And why not? It was a "pastoral" council (Paul VI's words) which made no dogmatic definitions. Though some think the jury is still out on it, in their view it was a pastoral disaster.* I'm inclined to agree with them.

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero.  The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet so many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of super-dogma which takes away the importance of all the rest. 
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

"Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

* Of course one of the most disastrous pastoral results of this merely pastoral Council was the noxious idea that it had changed the Catholic Church's teachings and even identity---as witnessed by Robb's comment above.
This ^

Well its up to the Pope to interpret the Council.  Just because he hints that its been misinterpreted does not mean that he wants to completely overhull it or do away with its reforms entirely.  Maybe he wants to tinker with it here and there, but I highly doubt that the Council and its spirit will ever entirely depart from us (Thank God). 
Also If some past Pope seems to have issued statements in the past that contradict what the RCC teaches now then too bad.  Things change so get over it.  I can promise you that this saint would have spoken differently if he were alive today (If not then I highly doubt that he would have become saint by today's standards since his writings would have conflicted the official teachings and pastoral actions of the RCC). 
I don't agree with everything that has occurred in the wake of the Council, especially the hazardous spirit of iconcoclams which has destroyed or changed much of the beauty that was pre councillor Catholicism, but I rejoice in the death of excessive legalism and the fortress mentality which prevailed for a millennium in our faith.  That can stay dead and buried, world without end as far as I'm concerned.



Also I notice that nobody actually trid to refute the Papal quotes from the article that I posted, just that same old line that the present Pope spoke in one of his general audiences is rehashed time and again by the same people in these debates to make their point.  I would ask, do the statements of a Pope held during an ecumenical council hold more weight then those spoken by him in a non councilor audience?  I would think that they do, but some will do whatever it takes to forward their agenda's.
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2011, 09:58:24 PM »

Bah! Whatever fallible or not. The decrees from the council counteract what St Pius X wrote in his encyclicle Pascendi and the Syllabus of errors of Blessed Pius IX. So who is right?
Can't they all be wrong?
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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2011, 10:00:12 PM »

Indeed the traditional societies which are already "in" the Church are allowed to ignore Vatican II. And why not? It was a "pastoral" council (Paul VI's words) which made no dogmatic definitions. Though some think the jury is still out on it, in their view it was a pastoral disaster.* I'm inclined to agree with them.

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero.  The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet so many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of super-dogma which takes away the importance of all the rest.  
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

"Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

* Of course one of the most disastrous pastoral results of this merely pastoral Council was the noxious idea that it had changed the Catholic Church's teachings and even identity---as witnessed by Robb's comment above.
This ^

Well its up to the Pope to interpret the Council.  Just because he hints that its been misinterpreted does not mean that he wants to completely overhull it or do away with its reforms entirely.  Maybe he wants to tinker with it here and there, but I highly doubt that the Council and its spirit will ever entirely depart from us (Thank God).  
Also If some past Pope seems to have issued statements in the past that contradict what the RCC teaches now then too bad.  Things change so get over it.  I can promise you that this saint would have spoken differently if he were alive today (If not then I highly doubt that he would have become saint by today's standards since his writings would have conflicted the official teachings and pastoral actions of the RCC).  
I don't agree with everything that has occurred in the wake of the Council, especially the hazardous spirit of iconcoclams which has destroyed or changed much of the beauty that was pre councillor Catholicism, but I rejoice in the death of excessive legalism and the fortress mentality which prevailed for a millennium in our faith.  That can stay dead and buried, world without end as far as I'm concerned.

I can't recall a council where the Pope's interpretation, or even any interpretation, was needed.  The language was always straightforward and concise.  You know the council has issues when the documents must be studied by "theologians" to determine what its true meaning is.

"Things change, get over it."  Says the Catholic to the Orthodox...lol.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:03:02 PM by Scotty » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2011, 10:11:18 PM »

"Things change, get over it."  Says the Catholic to the Orthodox...lol.

Hey, I didn't do it.  It was done some 50 years ago and I'm just left holding the bag.  If the Vatican II had never occurred then we wouldn't be holding this debate, but it did and I highly doubt that the vast majority of the worlds RC's are going to tolerate turning back the clock in order to appease a small group of dissatisfied traditionalist.  If it wasn't for the Council then God only knows where I'd be right now (Perhaps a hippie smoking grass and worshipping the Sun)?  The Council saved me so I just feel that I owe it a debt of gratitude and must speak up from time to time to those who would malign it as "un Catholic".  

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« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2011, 10:23:50 PM »

"Things change, get over it."  Says the Catholic to the Orthodox...lol.

Hey, I didn't do it.  It was done some 50 years ago and I'm just left holding the bag.  If the Vatican II had never occurred then we wouldn't be holding this debate, but it did and I highly doubt that the vast majority of the worlds RC's are going to tolerate turning back the clock in order to appease a small group of dissatisfied traditionalist.  If it wasn't for the Council then God only knows where I'd be right now (Perhaps a hippie smoking grass and worshipping the Sun)?  The Council saved me so I just feel that I owe it a debt of gratitude and must speak up from time to time to those who would malign it as "un Catholic".  

No no, I understand where you were coming from, I just thought it would be a "good" response to just about every other issue on this board (filioque, purgatory, etc).  Remember, it wasn't the council that saved you, it was Jesus Christ!  Do you not have faith that Christ would've called you with or without the council?  God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have not changed.  Praise be to Him for calling you home!

Does that ever seem like conditional Catholicism?  The council has I'm sure helped a lot of converts, but many huddle around the council as if it is the only reason they are Catholics, as if without it they would've been better as a Protestant/anything else.  This only echos exactly what many [traditionalists] say - watering down of the faith, accepting Protestantism, etc.  See Scott Hahn or Jeff Cavins.  EDIT I'm not implying you're a convert.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:26:44 PM by Scotty » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2011, 10:38:08 AM »

What kind of "loyalty" is this?


Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to be one of those "hermeneutic of rupture" people that the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI, has warned about.

You also put your opinion above popes like Benedict and Paul VI himself when you call Vatican II a dogmatic council.

Methinks the Holy Father could use for more loyal sons like the FSSP.
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« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2011, 11:31:59 AM »



I can't recall a council where the Pope's interpretation, or even any interpretation, was needed.  The language was always straightforward and concise.  You know the council has issues when the documents must be studied by "theologians" to determine what its true meaning is.


Bingo.

And people forget that a certain theologian by the name of RATZINGER was highly critical of some of the Council documents. In fact, he described some parts of Gaudium et Spes as "downright Pelagian."

So, yes, I think the SSPX is quite in good company to express some reservations about the Council, which they have been doing with Roman theologians for the past several years.
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« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2011, 11:43:09 AM »

And, Robb, the Council (and/or its aftermath) may have "saved" you, but I'm sitting here amid a devastating "silent apostasy" (Blessed John Paul II's words) that occurred in my family in the late 1960s and 1970s. In fact, I have three dozen cousins, and I am the only practicing Catholic among them. Not a single one of my parents or aunts or uncles are churchgoers, with the exception of my father---who was a devout Catholic when his faith was destroyed in the late 1960s and 1970s and who is now a Baptist.* Alas my case is not unusual.

*Incidentally, my now-Baptist father only wants to accompany me to Mass if I take him to the traditional rite. He is scandalized by the typical Novus Ordo. He said the irreverence and shenanigans at these Masses brings back the pain he felt as a young man "when all hell broke loose" in his parish and school and diocese.
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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2011, 01:11:51 PM »

And, Robb, the Council (and/or its aftermath) may have "saved" you, but I'm sitting here amid a devastating "silent apostasy" (Blessed John Paul II's words) that occurred in my family in the late 1960s and 1970s. In fact, I have three dozen cousins, and I am the only practicing Catholic among them. Not a single one of my parents or aunts or uncles are churchgoers, with the exception of my father---who was a devout Catholic when his faith was destroyed in the late 1960s and 1970s and who is now a Baptist.* Alas my case is not unusual.

*Incidentally, my now-Baptist father only wants to accompany me to Mass if I take him to the traditional rite. He is scandalized by the typical Novus Ordo. He said the irreverence and shenanigans at these Masses brings back the pain he felt as a young man "when all hell broke loose" in his parish and school and diocese.
What was the real cause of Vatican II? Did it have anything to do with the terrible devastation and loss of life on both sides in WWI and WWII? How did the fanatical pro-Catholic Ustase in Croatia come to power?
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« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2011, 04:47:28 PM »

I don't see how you could attribute that all specifically to Vatican II (Unless the Council itself was the direct cause of their departure from the faith)?  If these departures were caused by some local misinterpretation of Vatican II then maybe I could understand your frustration, but a misinterpretation of official decrees isn't the fault of the Council itself, but of those who were responsible for pastorally implementing them.

Also, your not alone in having these family defections.  I good number of my extended family, although not all are lapsed Catholics or members of other faiths.  However I don't attribute their departures to Vatican II itself or even a misinterpretation of it. The main reason so many left was because they were "bored" with the Church and didn't "get anything" out of it (At least that's what they've told me).  I can hardly imagine how having the liturgy in Latin with the priest turned backward from the congregation would have made them more enthusiastic Catholics.  Perhaps they would have stayed out of fear because the clergy would have still been preaching fire and brimstone for all those who dared think about leaving the faith, but I doubt it.  At my home parish, we had a priest who preached exactly like that and way past Vatican II, up until his retirement in the late 80's.  Not too many changes or misinterpretations of the Council were present in our parish during those years, but that still didn't stop a good deal of my relatives from growing disillusioned and eventually leaving the faith.

Let us also not forget that many EO's have also left the practice of their faith and either become lapsed or joined sectarian groups.  The Orthodox never had a Vatican II so why do so many of (The cradle ones anyway) drop out of the Church? 
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« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2011, 05:05:33 PM »

I don't see how you could attribute that all specifically to Vatican II (Unless the Council itself was the direct cause of their departure from the faith)?  If these departures were caused by some local misinterpretation of Vatican II then maybe I could understand your frustration, but a misinterpretation of official decrees isn't the fault of the Council itself, but of those who were responsible for pastorally implementing them.

Also, your not alone in having these family defections.  I good number of my extended family, although not all are lapsed Catholics or members of other faiths.  However I don't attribute their departures to Vatican II itself or even a misinterpretation of it. The main reason so many left was because they were "bored" with the Church and didn't "get anything" out of it (At least that's what they've told me).  I can hardly imagine how having the liturgy in Latin with the priest turned backward from the congregation would have made them more enthusiastic Catholics.  Perhaps they would have stayed out of fear because the clergy would have still been preaching fire and brimstone for all those who dared think about leaving the faith, but I doubt it.  At my home parish, we had a priest who preached exactly like that and way past Vatican II, up until his retirement in the late 80's.  Not too many changes or misinterpretations of the Council were present in our parish during those years, but that still didn't stop a good deal of my relatives from growing disillusioned and eventually leaving the faith.

Let us also not forget that many EO's have also left the practice of their faith and either become lapsed or joined sectarian groups.  The Orthodox never had a Vatican II so why do so many of (The cradle ones anyway) drop out of the Church? 
Although  some Orthodox may not go to Church regularly, nevertheless, I am not convinced that they have dropped out of the Church.  In many ways, the Church is still part of their lives.
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« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2011, 06:16:34 PM »

And, Robb, the Council (and/or its aftermath) may have "saved" you, but I'm sitting here amid a devastating "silent apostasy" (Blessed John Paul II's words) that occurred in my family in the late 1960s and 1970s. In fact, I have three dozen cousins, and I am the only practicing Catholic among them. Not a single one of my parents or aunts or uncles are churchgoers, with the exception of my father---who was a devout Catholic when his faith was destroyed in the late 1960s and 1970s and who is now a Baptist.* Alas my case is not unusual.

*Incidentally, my now-Baptist father only wants to accompany me to Mass if I take him to the traditional rite. He is scandalized by the typical Novus Ordo. He said the irreverence and shenanigans at these Masses brings back the pain he felt as a young man "when all hell broke loose" in his parish and school and diocese.
Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2011, 05:45:10 PM »

I feel for you Robb, you aren't alone... The problem is, most family members feel there is nothing wrong with being a lapsed Catholic, since they're good people and will still get to heaven.
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2011, 06:33:38 PM »

What kind of "loyalty" is this?


Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to be one of those "hermeneutic of rupture" people that the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI, has warned about.

You also put your opinion above popes like Benedict and Paul VI himself when you call Vatican II a dogmatic council.

Methinks the Holy Father could use for more loyal sons like the FSSP.

Well while you take this or that past comment from the Pope and lift it out of context, piece mealing them together to fit your own agenda, I'm reading from official Vatican pronouncements and documents which state clearly that the SSPX is still in a schism for rejecting Vatican II.  The Pope might do this or that in order to create an atmosphere of good will necessary for a future reunion to take place, but Vatican II still must be accepted in its entirety by the SSPX in order for any real unity to be achieved.  The Society must give up its integrist mentality completely, including its anti semitism and sexism, along with its opposition to democracy and religious liberty.  Then peace will come, but so far this is what the Vatican still says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_between_the_Society_of_St._Pius_X_and_the_Holy_See

No change in juridical status

A Note of the Secretariat of State issued on 4 February 2009 specified that, while the lifting of the excommunication freed the four bishops from a very grave canonical penalty, it made no change in the juridical situation of the Society of St. Pius X, which continued to lack canonical recognition in the Catholic Church, and that the four bishops remained without any canonical function in the Church and were not exercising legitimately any ministry within it. The note added that future recognition of the Society required full recognition of the Second Vatican Council and of the teaching of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and repeated the assurance given in the decree of 21 January 2009 that the Holy See would study, along with those involved, the questions not yet settled, so as to reach a full satisfactory solution of the problems that had given rise to the split.[18]

Pope Benedict XVI confirmed this stance in his motu proprio Ecclesiae unitatem of 2 July 2009, in which he declared that by lifting the excommunication of the four bishops he "intended to remove an impediment that might have jeopardized the opening of a door to dialogue and thereby to invite the Bishops and the 'Society of St Pius X' to rediscover the path to full communion with the Church. ... the remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the context of ecclesiastical discipline to free the individuals from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. However, the doctrinal questions obviously remain and until they are clarified the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry."

The SSPX has also confirmed that reunion with Rome is not possible (For them) At this time in an interview earlier this year.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100721.htm

Traditionalist bishop cites lack of progress in talks with Vatican
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 06:34:13 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2011, 07:09:35 PM »

What kind of "loyalty" is this?


Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to be one of those "hermeneutic of rupture" people that the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI, has warned about.

You also put your opinion above popes like Benedict and Paul VI himself when you call Vatican II a dogmatic council.

Methinks the Holy Father could use for more loyal sons like the FSSP.

I think you need to go and read the original text of Pope Paul's opening address, where there is reference to something about "pastoral" with respect to the Second Vatican Council but not flat out statement that the council was pastoral and NOT dogmatic.

I think you will find that it was NEVER said that the Second Vatican was only a pastoral council.

That old saw has been around so long there are no more teeth in it.

Last time I looked you could find it on-line.  I don't have the inclination or time to look at the moment, so this is merely FYI

Mary

PS: Clue:  in the documents of the Second Vatican one finds Dogmatic Constitution on the Church: that is hardly a pastoral title.
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2011, 07:13:29 PM »

Even if Bp. Fellay surprises us by reentering into full communion with the Church, I would not be surprised at all if Bp. Williamson blew a gasket and split off from the church entirely and started some sedevacantist group, or at least some SSPX-like society of schismatic priests. (They could be the Society of St. Justin Martyr and exclusively say the pre-Nicean true Greek catacomb liturgy, because Nicea is a heretical council and the liturgy it spawned is defective. Cheesy)
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« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2011, 05:26:59 PM »

Even if Bp. Fellay surprises us by reentering into full communion with the Church, I would not be surprised at all if Bp. Williamson blew a gasket and split off from the church entirely and started some sedevacantist group, or at least some SSPX-like society of schismatic priests. (They could be the Society of St. Justin Martyr and exclusively say the pre-Nicean true Greek catacomb liturgy, because Nicea is a heretical council and the liturgy it spawned is defective. Cheesy)

That happens with all seperatist Church groups.  It happened witha segment of ROCOR who couldn't stomach a reunion with the MP.  Mark my words, just like the ROCOR splinter schism factioned into numerous little schisms, so will the Williamsonite group too.  When your trying to rebel against someone, there is no unity, only disunity along with charismatic leaders who prey on that in order to create their won little centers of authority.  Its a never ending cyle of chaos.
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« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2011, 06:10:04 PM »

Even if Bp. Fellay surprises us by reentering into full communion with the Church, I would not be surprised at all if Bp. Williamson blew a gasket and split off from the church entirely and started some sedevacantist group, or at least some SSPX-like society of schismatic priests. (They could be the Society of St. Justin Martyr and exclusively say the pre-Nicean true Greek catacomb liturgy, because Nicea is a heretical council and the liturgy it spawned is defective. Cheesy)

That happens with all seperatist Church groups.  It happened witha segment of ROCOR who couldn't stomach a reunion with the MP.  Mark my words, just like the ROCOR splinter schism factioned into numerous little schisms, so will the Williamsonite group too.  When your trying to rebel against someone, there is no unity, only disunity along with charismatic leaders who prey on that in order to create their won little centers of authority.  Its a never ending cyle of chaos.

I'm not so sure if the situation with ROCOR is comparable with the SSPX situation, but you're probably right that just like  the reunion of ROCOR with the Russian Orthodox Church, any reunion between the RCC and the SSPX will probably result in splinter groups which refuse to resume communion.
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« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2011, 08:55:23 PM »

good people

The most devoid-of-content phrase doing the rounds in the Anglosphere.

I suspect that this phrase is responsible for the damnation of many. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2011, 10:45:32 PM »

Hmm, so according to Robb, the SSPX is schismatic but NOT excommunicated for it. Isn't that interesting.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2011, 12:16:42 AM »

Hmm, so according to Robb, the SSPX is schismatic but NOT excommunicated for it. Isn't that interesting.  Roll Eyes

No, that's according to the Vatican.  The excommunications were lifted as a gesture of good will on the Popes part.  So far, as I can see the SSPX has not reciprocated the gesture.

The only SSPXer's who were officially excommunicated were Lefebvre and the four bishops he consecrated.  The rest of their clergy, masses, and sacraments were/ are illicit, and schismatic, but not officially excommunicated by any Vatican decree.  The same goes for those who leave the RCC for another religion.  You've made a big sin and are on the outs with the Church, but you usually don't get the privilege of having an official bull of excommunication drawn up against you. 

By their own propaganda the SSPX attempts to jump through hopes and find every type of loophole to prove that they are still in Romes good graces.  The take every Papal, Vatican comment and bureaucratic muttering and stretch them out of context in order to suit their own agenda and give validity to their cause.  Any time a Church or particular religious group has to go through such great, almost mathematical attempts in order to prove their validity, that's a very good sign that said group is lacking in it.  The same goes for various Orthodox groups and pseudo churches which go to great lengths to try and prove their canonicity and give lengthy, detailed list of their ordinations and what bishop consecrated so and so and where he drew his succession from.  Any time a group goes through that routine, the best bet is to run far away from them, for a Shakespeare says "Thou dost protest too much". 
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« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2011, 02:16:50 AM »

I don't see how you could attribute that all specifically to Vatican II (Unless the Council itself was the direct cause of their departure from the faith)?  If these departures were caused by some local misinterpretation of Vatican II then maybe I could understand your frustration, but a misinterpretation of official decrees isn't the fault of the Council itself, but of those who were responsible for pastorally implementing them.

Also, your not alone in having these family defections.  I good number of my extended family, although not all are lapsed Catholics or members of other faiths.  However I don't attribute their departures to Vatican II itself or even a misinterpretation of it. The main reason so many left was because they were "bored" with the Church and didn't "get anything" out of it (At least that's what they've told me).  I can hardly imagine how having the liturgy in Latin with the priest turned backward from the congregation would have made them more enthusiastic Catholics.  Perhaps they would have stayed out of fear because the clergy would have still been preaching fire and brimstone for all those who dared think about leaving the faith, but I doubt it.  At my home parish, we had a priest who preached exactly like that and way past Vatican II, up until his retirement in the late 80's.  Not too many changes or misinterpretations of the Council were present in our parish during those years, but that still didn't stop a good deal of my relatives from growing disillusioned and eventually leaving the faith.

Let us also not forget that many EO's have also left the practice of their faith and either become lapsed or joined sectarian groups.  The Orthodox never had a Vatican II so why do so many of (The cradle ones anyway) drop out of the Church? 

The Mass attendance in the Catholic church went from 70% to a 30% average upon implementation of the committee formed so called liturgy (novus ordo). You want an example talk to the Rector of this parish. A former Jesuit.  http://www.churchofourlady.org/about.html   He still cares about the Roman Church so just expect honest talk and not the polemic anti-western bigotry that spews from some of the mouths of the closet muslims that call themselves Orthodox on this site.
The Orthodox never had anything remotely close to the falling out of the aftermath of VII and the wound it has created and continues to bleed and infect.
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« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2011, 02:21:46 AM »

Hmm, so according to Robb, the SSPX is schismatic but NOT excommunicated for it. Isn't that interesting.  Roll Eyes

No, that's according to the Vatican.  The excommunications were lifted as a gesture of good will on the Popes part.  So far, as I can see the SSPX has not reciprocated the gesture.

The only SSPXer's who were officially excommunicated were Lefebvre and the four bishops he consecrated.  The rest of their clergy, masses, and sacraments were/ are illicit, and schismatic, but not officially excommunicated by any Vatican decree.  The same goes for those who leave the RCC for another religion.  You've made a big sin and are on the outs with the Church, but you usually don't get the privilege of having an official bull of excommunication drawn up against you. 

By their own propaganda the SSPX attempts to jump through hopes and find every type of loophole to prove that they are still in Romes good graces.  The take every Papal, Vatican comment and bureaucratic muttering and stretch them out of context in order to suit their own agenda and give validity to their cause.  Any time a Church or particular religious group has to go through such great, almost mathematical attempts in order to prove their validity, that's a very good sign that said group is lacking in it.  The same goes for various Orthodox groups and pseudo churches which go to great lengths to try and prove their canonicity and give lengthy, detailed list of their ordinations and what bishop consecrated so and so and where he drew his succession from.  Any time a group goes through that routine, the best bet is to run far away from them, for a Shakespeare says "Thou dost protest too much". 
A schism usually entails a break in communion.  But both the Roman Catholic Church and the SSPX community will accept members from the other with no formalities required.
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« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2011, 02:24:22 AM »

The Orthodox never had anything remotely close to the falling out of the aftermath of VII and the wound it has created and continues to bleed and infect.
Why have the Orthodox been able to preserve their liturgy but Rome did not succeed?
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« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2011, 02:27:27 AM »

... He still cares about the Roman Church so just expect honest talk and not the polemic anti-western bigotry that spews from some of the mouths of the closet muslims that call themselves Orthodox on this site.
Why do you consider Orthodox to be closet muslims? If they have preserved their ancient traditions and are fearful of the west which they see as abandoning traditions and embracing modern movements, is that something to be condemned or admired?
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« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2011, 03:56:52 AM »

The Orthodox never had anything remotely close to the falling out of the aftermath of VII and the wound it has created and continues to bleed and infect.
Why have the Orthodox been able to preserve their liturgy but Rome did not succeed?

Because the Orthodox Church is sure and confident in its fidelity to the Apostolic faith. Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever. The Orthodox Church has seen no need to conform to the fashions and ephemera of the world which fade away in time; and has maintained great adherence to lex orandi, lex credendi.
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« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2011, 11:24:58 AM »

The Orthodox never had anything remotely close to the falling out of the aftermath of VII and the wound it has created and continues to bleed and infect.
Why have the Orthodox been able to preserve their liturgy but Rome did not succeed?

Because the Orthodox Church is sure and confident in its fidelity to the Apostolic faith. Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever. The Orthodox Church has seen no need to conform to the fashions and ephemera of the world which fade away in time; and has maintained great adherence to lex orandi, lex credendi.

Amen to this.
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« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2011, 11:38:38 AM »

... He still cares about the Roman Church so just expect honest talk and not the polemic anti-western bigotry that spews from some of the mouths of the closet muslims that call themselves Orthodox on this site.
Why do you consider Orthodox to be closet muslims? If they have preserved their ancient traditions and are fearful of the west which they see as abandoning traditions and embracing modern movements, is that something to be condemned or admired?

NO NO NO. Im talking about specific individuals who are mindlessly polemic on this site in particular.  I attend mostly Orthodox services, and am overjoyed and profoundly grateful that the faith has been so well taken care of by this true branch of the Catholic church.   So much so that I will likely enter in to it, which is both a sad and joyous occasion for reasons that should be obvious. 
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« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2011, 06:07:09 PM »

I don't see how you could attribute that all specifically to Vatican II (Unless the Council itself was the direct cause of their departure from the faith)?  If these departures were caused by some local misinterpretation of Vatican II then maybe I could understand your frustration, but a misinterpretation of official decrees isn't the fault of the Council itself, but of those who were responsible for pastorally implementing them.

Also, your not alone in having these family defections.  I good number of my extended family, although not all are lapsed Catholics or members of other faiths.  However I don't attribute their departures to Vatican II itself or even a misinterpretation of it. The main reason so many left was because they were "bored" with the Church and didn't "get anything" out of it (At least that's what they've told me).  I can hardly imagine how having the liturgy in Latin with the priest turned backward from the congregation would have made them more enthusiastic Catholics.  Perhaps they would have stayed out of fear because the clergy would have still been preaching fire and brimstone for all those who dared think about leaving the faith, but I doubt it.  At my home parish, we had a priest who preached exactly like that and way past Vatican II, up until his retirement in the late 80's.  Not too many changes or misinterpretations of the Council were present in our parish during those years, but that still didn't stop a good deal of my relatives from growing disillusioned and eventually leaving the faith.

Let us also not forget that many EO's have also left the practice of their faith and either become lapsed or joined sectarian groups.  The Orthodox never had a Vatican II so why do so many of (The cradle ones anyway) drop out of the Church? 

The Mass attendance in the Catholic church went from 70% to a 30% average upon implementation of the committee formed so called liturgy (novus ordo). You want an example talk to the Rector of this parish. A former Jesuit.  http://www.churchofourlady.org/about.html   He still cares about the Roman Church so just expect honest talk and not the polemic anti-western bigotry that spews from some of the mouths of the closet muslims that call themselves Orthodox on this site.
The Orthodox never had anything remotely close to the falling out of the aftermath of VII and the wound it has created and continues to bleed and infect.

I've got a suprise for you, I have talked to him before.  As a matter of fact, he baptized me into Orthodox some 11 years ago!  He's a very nice priest and I certainly can understand the frustration that those of his generation went through during the Councillor period.  Yet I refuse to either reject or disbelieve in Vatican II because of his opinions (Fine, fine man though he be) Or the opinions of anyone else for that matter.  I trust in my Church and the decisions of her magesterium, that's all I can say.
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« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2011, 07:17:32 PM »

I don't see how you could attribute that all specifically to Vatican II (Unless the Council itself was the direct cause of their departure from the faith)?  If these departures were caused by some local misinterpretation of Vatican II then maybe I could understand your frustration, but a misinterpretation of official decrees isn't the fault of the Council itself, but of those who were responsible for pastorally implementing them.

Also, your not alone in having these family defections.  I good number of my extended family, although not all are lapsed Catholics or members of other faiths.  However I don't attribute their departures to Vatican II itself or even a misinterpretation of it. The main reason so many left was because they were "bored" with the Church and didn't "get anything" out of it (At least that's what they've told me).  I can hardly imagine how having the liturgy in Latin with the priest turned backward from the congregation would have made them more enthusiastic Catholics.  Perhaps they would have stayed out of fear because the clergy would have still been preaching fire and brimstone for all those who dared think about leaving the faith, but I doubt it.  At my home parish, we had a priest who preached exactly like that and way past Vatican II, up until his retirement in the late 80's.  Not too many changes or misinterpretations of the Council were present in our parish during those years, but that still didn't stop a good deal of my relatives from growing disillusioned and eventually leaving the faith.

Let us also not forget that many EO's have also left the practice of their faith and either become lapsed or joined sectarian groups.  The Orthodox never had a Vatican II so why do so many of (The cradle ones anyway) drop out of the Church? 

The Mass attendance in the Catholic church went from 70% to a 30% average upon implementation of the committee formed so called liturgy (novus ordo). You want an example talk to the Rector of this parish. A former Jesuit.  http://www.churchofourlady.org/about.html   He still cares about the Roman Church so just expect honest talk and not the polemic anti-western bigotry that spews from some of the mouths of the closet muslims that call themselves Orthodox on this site.
The Orthodox never had anything remotely close to the falling out of the aftermath of VII and the wound it has created and continues to bleed and infect.

I've got a suprise for you, I have talked to him before.  As a matter of fact, he baptized me into Orthodox some 11 years ago!  He's a very nice priest and I certainly can understand the frustration that those of his generation went through during the Councillor period.  Yet I refuse to either reject or disbelieve in Vatican II because of his opinions (Fine, fine man though he be) Or the opinions of anyone else for that matter.  I trust in my Church and the decisions of her magesterium, that's all I can say.
Amen, Robb. As do I.
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