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Author Topic: Gospel of Thomas?  (Read 3813 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 21, 2004, 09:10:26 PM »

What do orthodox christians think about the gospel of thomas?
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 09:37:58 PM »

Nothing complimentary, for sure!  It is a gnostic document, and without any standing among Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 10:15:06 PM »

It feels like there are truths and lies mixed in together.  I don't know the listory behind the book right now but it sounds  like someone picked and choose what they wanted.  Especially number    114-Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life."  Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males.  For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."  

That just doesn't sound like something Jesus would say!  

I am glad to hear that orthodox christians do not buy into this because I am considering converting to orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2004, 11:03:31 AM »

Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males.  For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."  

That just doesn't sound like something Jesus would say!  


Definitely No! More of a St. Paul quote!  Grin
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2004, 12:17:42 PM »

I was thinking more along the lines of St. Ignatius, seeing as he invented the episcopacy, at least according to my Bible professor.  Nothin' like RPs, huh?   Tongue
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2004, 03:30:40 PM »

Check this out -

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

(for scholarly interest, I make no claims for Orthodoxy...)

The Coptic / English interlinear translation is quite interesting.

There's quite a lot in the Gospel of Thomas besides women becoming men in order to inherit life.

Much of it sounds a lot like the Synoptic Gospels to me...

This is a bit different:

(Saying #77)

Jesus says:

(1) "I am the light that is over all. I am the All.
The All came forth out of me. And to me the All has come."
(2) "Split a piece of wood - I am there.
(3) Lift the stone, and you will find me there."


(http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm)

... anybody see the film Stigmata?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 03:31:28 PM by Rustaveli » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2004, 12:14:59 PM »

Yeah, I saw that movie almost fourteen times (the university cable movie channel was playing it all week, and I had nothing to do that week).
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2004, 01:53:28 PM »

Jesus says:

(1) "I am the light that is over all. I am the All.
The All came forth out of me. And to me the All has come."
(2) "Split a piece of wood - I am there.
(3) Lift the stone, and you will find me there."


(http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm)

... anybody see the film Stigmata?

Yeah, I saw it.  To me, it was no more than a glorified advertisement for the "Gospel" of Thomas.
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2004, 02:18:07 PM »

The sad thing, Thomas, is that there are people who actually believed the movie's perspective on this book.  I vividly remember going to church one Sunday morning with my cousin.  She saw the movie the evening before, and genuinely believed the Vatican was hiding this book from the people in order to keep them under its authority, etc., etc.  It was a while before she realised that you can find it online and buy it at any decent Barnes and Noble and that the movie was a crock.  Granted, she's a bit nuts at times, but there are people who actually buy into this garbage.  

I did like Patricia Arquette (in this movie) and Gabriel Byrne, though.
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2004, 03:56:33 PM »

The sad thing, Thomas, is that there are people who actually believed the movie's perspective on this book.  I vividly remember going to church one Sunday morning with my cousin.  She saw the movie the evening before, and genuinely believed the Vatican was hiding this book from the people in order to keep them under its authority, etc., etc.  It was a while before she realised that you can find it online and buy it at any decent Barnes and Noble and that the movie was a crock.  Granted, she's a bit nuts at times, but there are people who actually buy into this garbage.  

I did like Patricia Arquette (in this movie) and Gabriel Byrne, though.  

Not to quibble or to defend "Stigmata" as other than the work of fiction which it is, but an interesting plot detail in the movie was that the "missing" Gospel of Thomas text was in the original Aramaic, as spoken by Our Lord Himself.

To my knowledge, there is no extant text of "Thomas" from ancient manuscripts other than in Greek and in Coptic ...

So an Aramaic text would be quite a find (... although probably with less dramatic consequences than in the movie)!

I liked the words of the wise old Vatican linguist, that everyone who encountered Christ on earth had a different experience of him... might be a grain of Truth in that, perhaps useful for reading the Canonical Gospels and other scriptures.

If someone were to take the movie itself as other than what it is or was intended to be, perhaps (as you hinted) this may have more to do with the person than with the film?

Anywho, Byrne & Arquette are cool!  Cool
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2004, 03:58:46 PM »

P.S. -

I won't even go into the possibility of Vatican power-plots and cover-ups on an Orthodox-oriented forum -

.. all I may say is:

"Remember the Fourth Crusade"!!!   Wink
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2004, 04:48:04 PM »

There were some who thought that the Gospel of Thomas might have been "Q" the hypothesized work that Mathew and Luke were supposed to have drawn from.

This seems to have fallen by the way side.  And, just for  the record, there is no manuscript of "Q" that has been found.  There are theoretical reconstructions but no original.  It's possible that there is no "Q" to find.

An article from Atlantic on Q that has something on G. of T towards the bottom:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96dec/jesus/jesus.htm

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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2004, 06:20:54 PM »

There were some who thought that the Gospel of Thomas might have been "Q" the hypothesized work that Mathew and Luke were supposed to have drawn from.

This seems to have fallen by the way side.  And, just for  the record, there is no manuscript of "Q" that has been found.  There are theoretical reconstructions but no original.  It's possible that there is no "Q" to find.

An article from Atlantic on Q that has something on G. of T towards the bottom:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96dec/jesus/jesus.htm

Ebor

I also read one theory that "Q" could have been Matthew's original "Gospel" in Aramaic which focused primarily on Jesus's sayings.
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2004, 02:03:28 PM »

Nothing complimentary, for sure!  It is a gnostic document, and without any standing among Orthodox Christians.    

I used to think the same thing -- but last night while reading the book "The Inner Kingdom" by Bishop Kallistos Ware he quotes from the Gospel of Thomas twice (see page 74 for one reference)

I was suprised to see that.

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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2010, 04:29:52 AM »

I just watched the Stigmata movie this evening (I have seen it before, but didn't remember much of it previously). I was startled by just how Orthodox the quote that was used from the Gospel of Thomas sounded:


"The kingdom of God is inside you, and it is all around you...Split a piece of wood - I am there. Lift the stone, and you will find me there."

I think there is some wisdom within the text, but it must be interpreted in light of Tradition.
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2010, 05:29:40 AM »

Saying 114...

That is all.
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2010, 10:01:24 AM »

Nothing complimentary, for sure!  It is a gnostic document, and without any standing among Orthodox Christians.    

I used to think the same thing -- but last night while reading the book "The Inner Kingdom" by Bishop Kallistos Ware he quotes from the Gospel of Thomas twice (see page 74 for one reference)

I was suprised to see that.

One has to take a lot of what he says these days with rather large grains of salt.
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2010, 02:59:41 PM »

Do not others see nuggets of wisdom in this book? Sure, there are some heretical aspects, but also things that I would consider parallel to orthodox teaching. Surely there's more relevant wisdom here than what we could pull out of say, leviticus?
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2010, 03:21:11 PM »

Do not others see nuggets of wisdom in this book? Sure, there are some heretical aspects, but also things that I would consider parallel to orthodox teaching. Surely there's more relevant wisdom here than what we could pull out of say, leviticus?

No, I would not agree. Leviticus, being Torah, is at least canonical. The Gospel of Thomas does not even have origins in Christianity (unless you believe Armstrong or Pagels), having been produced by Gnostics for Gnostics. Looking for elements of truth there is like like looking in the garbage cans for dinner when your mother will feed you perfectly good food at home. If you stick with garbage cans, you may eat something that looks good, but will be poisoned. Your mother the Church, however, does not give you poison. She serves up hearty dishes of canonical Gospels, whole Testaments and Liturgies and Lives of Saints. From time to time, she might give you the spinach of Leviticus, but spinach is full of vitamins and good for you, and she will help you chew it correctly. Plus, you get the Holy Fathers for dessert. Are you still hungry that you want to root around in the garbage?
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2010, 03:31:46 PM »

Do not others see nuggets of wisdom in this book? Sure, there are some heretical aspects, but also things that I would consider parallel to orthodox teaching. Surely there's more relevant wisdom here than what we could pull out of say, leviticus?

No, I would not agree. Leviticus, being Torah, is at least canonical. The Gospel of Thomas does not even have origins in Christianity (unless you believe Armstrong or Pagels), having been produced by Gnostics for Gnostics. Looking for elements of truth there is like like looking in the garbage cans for dinner when your mother will feed you perfectly good food at home. If you stick with garbage cans, you may eat something that looks good, but will be poisoned. Your mother the Church, however, does not give you poison. She serves up hearty dishes of canonical Gospels, whole Testaments and Liturgies and Lives of Saints. From time to time, she might give you the spinach of Leviticus, but spinach is full of vitamins and good for you, and she will help you chew it correctly. Plus, you get the Holy Fathers for dessert. Are you still hungry that you want to root around in the garbage?

It would be surprising to me if it didn't have it's roots in Christianity, given that there are so many passages common to it and the NT gospels. I suppose I find it hard to see why other non-canonical writings such as the gospel of James are so beloved by many in the Church and ones such as this are shunned.
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 03:43:14 PM »

Do not others see nuggets of wisdom in this book? Sure, there are some heretical aspects, but also things that I would consider parallel to orthodox teaching. Surely there's more relevant wisdom here than what we could pull out of say, leviticus?

No, I would not agree. Leviticus, being Torah, is at least canonical. The Gospel of Thomas does not even have origins in Christianity (unless you believe Armstrong or Pagels), having been produced by Gnostics for Gnostics. Looking for elements of truth there is like like looking in the garbage cans for dinner when your mother will feed you perfectly good food at home. If you stick with garbage cans, you may eat something that looks good, but will be poisoned. Your mother the Church, however, does not give you poison. She serves up hearty dishes of canonical Gospels, whole Testaments and Liturgies and Lives of Saints. From time to time, she might give you the spinach of Leviticus, but spinach is full of vitamins and good for you, and she will help you chew it correctly. Plus, you get the Holy Fathers for dessert. Are you still hungry that you want to root around in the garbage?
Never eat meat your mama through away as green.  The GoT may not be as green as some other writings, but as you say, why pass up mom's home cooking to look through garbage. Although, seeing what others are reduced to eating should make you appreciate your home cooked meal more.
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2010, 03:44:27 PM »

Do not others see nuggets of wisdom in this book? Sure, there are some heretical aspects, but also things that I would consider parallel to orthodox teaching. Surely there's more relevant wisdom here than what we could pull out of say, leviticus?

No, I would not agree. Leviticus, being Torah, is at least canonical. The Gospel of Thomas does not even have origins in Christianity (unless you believe Armstrong or Pagels), having been produced by Gnostics for Gnostics. Looking for elements of truth there is like like looking in the garbage cans for dinner when your mother will feed you perfectly good food at home. If you stick with garbage cans, you may eat something that looks good, but will be poisoned. Your mother the Church, however, does not give you poison. She serves up hearty dishes of canonical Gospels, whole Testaments and Liturgies and Lives of Saints. From time to time, she might give you the spinach of Leviticus, but spinach is full of vitamins and good for you, and she will help you chew it correctly. Plus, you get the Holy Fathers for dessert. Are you still hungry that you want to root around in the garbage?

It would be surprising to me if it didn't have it's roots in Christianity, given that there are so many passages common to it and the NT gospels. I suppose I find it hard to see why other non-canonical writings such as the gospel of James are so beloved by many in the Church and ones such as this are shunned.

The Gnostics were their own sect, apart from Christianity. They have "Christianized" writings, as well as pagan writings, as there were many different groups of Gnostics. Gnosticism was a large problem for the Church in the early centuries, from the time of the Apostles on. The Church is concerned with the purity and fullness of the truth. Additions, subtractions, distortions, etc. are all very dangerous to maintaining the true preaching of the Gospel, from the time of Christ and His Apostles to the present day.
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2010, 03:44:49 PM »

Do not others see nuggets of wisdom in this book? Sure, there are some heretical aspects, but also things that I would consider parallel to orthodox teaching. Surely there's more relevant wisdom here than what we could pull out of say, leviticus?

No, I would not agree. Leviticus, being Torah, is at least canonical. The Gospel of Thomas does not even have origins in Christianity (unless you believe Armstrong or Pagels), having been produced by Gnostics for Gnostics. Looking for elements of truth there is like like looking in the garbage cans for dinner when your mother will feed you perfectly good food at home. If you stick with garbage cans, you may eat something that looks good, but will be poisoned. Your mother the Church, however, does not give you poison. She serves up hearty dishes of canonical Gospels, whole Testaments and Liturgies and Lives of Saints. From time to time, she might give you the spinach of Leviticus, but spinach is full of vitamins and good for you, and she will help you chew it correctly. Plus, you get the Holy Fathers for dessert. Are you still hungry that you want to root around in the garbage?

It would be surprising to me if it didn't have it's roots in Christianity, given that there are so many passages common to it and the NT gospels. I suppose I find it hard to see why other non-canonical writings such as the gospel of James are so beloved by many in the Church and ones such as this are shunned.
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2010, 04:28:04 PM »

I just watched the Stigmata movie this evening (I have seen it before, but didn't remember much of it previously). I was startled by just how Orthodox the quote that was used from the Gospel of Thomas sounded:

"The kingdom of God is inside you, and it is all around you...Split a piece of wood - I am there. Lift the stone, and you will find me there."

I found it amusing that the plot of the movie focused on the suppression of that verse, which seemed very similar to Luke 17:21.  While this is translated as the Kingdom of God is either "in the midst of you" or "within you," I still didn't think it was that shockingly different.
Obviously, other parts of the Gospel of Thomas are very different from canon, but rather than pursuing the Gnostic link, the movie chose to go for the big, mean, authoritarian church trying to cover up something that was remarkably similar to what is already included in their scripture.
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2010, 05:24:18 PM »

I just watched the Stigmata movie this evening (I have seen it before, but didn't remember much of it previously). I was startled by just how Orthodox the quote that was used from the Gospel of Thomas sounded:

"The kingdom of God is inside you, and it is all around you...Split a piece of wood - I am there. Lift the stone, and you will find me there."

I found it amusing that the plot of the movie focused on the suppression of that verse, which seemed very similar to Luke 17:21.  While this is translated as the Kingdom of God is either "in the midst of you" or "within you," I still didn't think it was that shockingly different.
Obviously, other parts of the Gospel of Thomas are very different from canon, but rather than pursuing the Gnostic link, the movie chose to go for the big, mean, authoritarian church trying to cover up something that was remarkably similar to what is already included in their scripture.

I thought the same thing.
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