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Author Topic: Size of Rome vs. Eastern Churches  (Read 2613 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 26, 2011, 10:43:13 PM »

I realize that numbers arent necessarily the most important thing, but when we had the 5 original churches, (Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Rome) why did the Church in Rome, the eventual Roman Catholic church, grow so much faster than the other churches?

I guess a simpler, more modern way to ask this is how did the Roman Catholic church get to be so much larger than the Eastern Orthodox church? Wasnt the EO church the original??
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 11:06:44 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 11:12:59 PM »

I realize that numbers arent necessarily the most important thing, but when we had the 5 original churches, (Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Rome) why did the Church in Rome, the eventual Roman Catholic church, grow so much faster than the other churches?

I guess a simpler, more modern way to ask this is how did the Roman Catholic church get to be so much larger than the Eastern Orthodox church? Wasnt the EO church the original??


Geography has a great deal to do with it plus historical factors.

Orthodoxy spread north and east from Constantinople. To the East, the majority of Christians eventually became Monophysite or Oriental Orthodox. The rise of Islam later on in the Middle East also stopped any eastern expansion of Orthodoxy.

To the north, Orthodoxy did better amongst the Slavs and Romanians. The conversion of the Rus was imo the pinacle of Orthodox expansion. It kept spreading East through Russia, into Alaska but these were sparsely populated areas.

However Rome was geographically better positioned than Constantinople. France, Spain, Portugal gradually came under Catholic influence, also the Germanic countries to the north and to the east some of the Slavs and Hungarians -Croatians, Czechs, Poles etc. Later on the, Lithuanian-Polish, Austro Hungarian and various Germanic empires consolidated Catholic rule in their areas of Europe and oppressed Orthodoxy. The "Union" which created the Eastern Catholics also weakened Orthodoxy in some areas.

So in short, Orthodoxy was quickly contained geographically between the Catholic West and the Islamic East. And large amounts of the New World, Africa and Asia, areas of rapidly growing populations were AGGRESSIVELY colonised by Catholic powers. The only sizable Orthodox country/empire was Russia and it did not colonise any of those areas.  

Also the Islamic conquest of Orthodox countries in the Balkans and later on communism were the icing on the cake for the non-growth and suppression of Orthodoxy. This continues today with the support of secular/catholic countries with the creation of fake states like Bosnia, Kosovo etc.  






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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 11:26:13 PM »

I realize that numbers arent necessarily the most important thing, but when we had the 5 original churches, (Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Rome) why did the Church in Rome, the eventual Roman Catholic church, grow so much faster than the other churches?

I guess a simpler, more modern way to ask this is how did the Roman Catholic church get to be so much larger than the Eastern Orthodox church? Wasnt the EO church the original??
The Portuguese Inquisition, promoted by the Portuguese Empire

The Spanish Inquisition, promoted by the Spanish Empire

The French Empire helped the Jesuits along

Then there were those Crusaders


and in the their wake the Venetian Republic, which enforced Florence

the Polish Szlachta, which made Florence into Brest

and the Habsburgs, who added Alba Iulia to the dictates of Florence and Brest

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 11:38:52 PM »

Well Isa, it looks like God was on their side. I think the efficiency is impressive.
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 11:57:32 PM »

Well Isa, it looks like God was on their side. I think the efficiency is impressive.

Someone's been reading too much of the Qur'an.  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2011, 12:05:29 AM »

Thanks everyone.  That makes sense.  I guess the geography part was kind of common sense.  I guess its tougher to spread in areas that either arent as heavily populated, or are heavily populated with muslims.
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2011, 12:44:33 AM »

LOL @ the tags
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2011, 06:14:23 AM »

Thanks everyone.  That makes sense.  I guess the geography part was kind of common sense.  I guess its tougher to spread in areas that either arent as heavily populated, or are heavily populated with muslims.
Latin America. The Spanish and the Portuguese expanded their Empires and spread their religion as well. Plus there's western Europe.

Orthodoxy had Islam to the East and to the South. They expanded into Russia but China was so far away from the Russian cultural center that Orthodoxy never really got a strong foothold there.
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2011, 08:22:24 AM »

Thanks everyone.  That makes sense.  I guess the geography part was kind of common sense.  I guess its tougher to spread in areas that either arent as heavily populated, or are heavily populated with muslims.
Latin America. The Spanish and the Portuguese expanded their Empires and spread their religion as well. Plus there's western Europe.

Orthodoxy had Islam to the East and to the South. They expanded into Russia but China was so far away from the Russian cultural center that Orthodoxy never really got a strong foothold there.

I agree. If the New World didn't exist Roman Catholicism would have been predominant in Western Europe only and in a couple of African and Asian colonies only.



This map shows in Dark Green places where Portuguese is the mother-tongue, "middle" green where it is an official administrative language, light-green where it is a cultural or minority tongue, green dots where it is the language of a significant minority group and in yellow dots where you have portuguese-based creole languages.

Take the Americas out and you have an idea of how the Portuguese would have expanded Roman Catholicism.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 08:27:21 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2011, 08:38:13 AM »

Catholics massage their statistics be claiming as a member everyone who was baptized, no matter if he went on in life to be the head of the Global Atheist Union.

We work our statistics by counting how many people fulfil their Easter obligation - a more sure statistic.


One third of Catholic membership is located in South America - "nominals" by and large.

Take out the South Americans and your statistics are getting close to the Orthodox.
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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2011, 09:28:09 AM »

Western Europe holds 19.67% of all Roman Catholics in the world. If the Western countries had never made the navigations, Roman Catholics would be 232,302,700.

So thank the Iberic sea crusaders for the expansion. Smiley

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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2011, 09:28:54 AM »

  I guess the geography part was kind of common sense. 

To quote Napoleon, "Geography is Destiny!"
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2011, 09:34:23 AM »

Catholics massage their statistics be claiming as a member everyone who was baptized, no matter if he went on in life to be the head of the Global Atheist Union.

We work our statistics by counting how many people fulfil their Easter obligation - a more sure statistic.


One third of Catholic membership is located in South America - "nominals" by and large.

Take out the South Americans and your statistics are getting close to the Orthodox.

Father A: We should be careful with the 'they count the baptized' argument. Many assert that the numbers of faithful claimed by the Orthodox Churches of Russia and Greece include 'nominal' Christians in their 'head counts', not just those who are actually part of the sacramental Church.
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2011, 09:37:58 AM »

Whatever happened to the Templars?



Quote
After the Templar order's suppression by Pope Clement in 1312, King Denis (of Portugal) set about creating a new order for the displaced knights in his realm. He instituted the "Christi Militia" under the patronage of Saint Benedict in 1317 (some sources say August 14, 1318), and Pope John XXII approved this order by a Papal bull on 14 March 1319 "AD EA EX QVIBVIS".

After four years of negotiations, Pope John XXII passed another bull authorizing Denis to grant the Templar's property to the Order of the Christ in 1323

(...)

After 1417, by King John I of Portugal's request to the Pope, Prince Henry the Navigator (1417–1460) became the order's Grand Master. Prince Henry the Navigator was born in 1394, the third son of King João of Portugal. During that time, Duarte I and Afonso V were Kings of Portugal. In 1433, King Duarte I gave the Order "Sovereign" status not over these territories which already held, but over any future conquests.

(...)

Using Order of Christ money, Prince Henry organized the Navigator's school in Sagres, preparing the way for Portuguese supremacy; from this village, the first great wave of expeditions of the Period of Discoveries were launched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Christ_(Portugal)

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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2011, 10:33:17 AM »

Catholics massage their statistics be claiming as a member everyone who was baptized, no matter if he went on in life to be the head of the Global Atheist Union.

We work our statistics by counting how many people fulfil their Easter obligation - a more sure statistic.


One third of Catholic membership is located in South America - "nominals" by and large.

Take out the South Americans and your statistics are getting close to the Orthodox.

Father A: We should be careful with the 'they count the baptized' argument. Many assert that the numbers of faithful claimed by the Orthodox Churches of Russia and Greece include 'nominal' Christians in their 'head counts', not just those who are actually part of the sacramental Church.

Ohhh...and take away one of my "laffs for the day"...?   

I say let him rip!!
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2011, 10:52:11 AM »

Catholics massage their statistics be claiming as a member everyone who was baptized, no matter if he went on in life to be the head of the Global Atheist Union.

We work our statistics by counting how many people fulfil their Easter obligation - a more sure statistic.


One third of Catholic membership is located in South America - "nominals" by and large.

Take out the South Americans and your statistics are getting close to the Orthodox.

Father A: We should be careful with the 'they count the baptized' argument. Many assert that the numbers of faithful claimed by the Orthodox Churches of Russia and Greece include 'nominal' Christians in their 'head counts', not just those who are actually part of the sacramental Church.

Ohhh...and take away one of my "laffs for the day"...?   

I say let him rip!!

Now and again Church HQ asks the priests to supply statistics. One that is sought is the number of people who fulfil their "Easter obligation" and it is from this that a rough assessment of Church membership is determined.  Laff!  laff!  laff!
 laugh laugh
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2011, 10:57:44 AM »


Whatever happened to the Templars?
[/size]

Didn't the Catholic Church accuse them of a preference for b*gg*ry?   This would lead to a depletion of numbers.
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2011, 11:08:27 AM »

Catholics massage their statistics be claiming as a member everyone who was baptized, no matter if he went on in life to be the head of the Global Atheist Union.

We work our statistics by counting how many people fulfil their Easter obligation - a more sure statistic.


One third of Catholic membership is located in South America - "nominals" by and large.

Take out the South Americans and your statistics are getting close to the Orthodox.
The problem is that in South American (and now, more in all of Latin America) the Protestants are making heavy inways: in Brazil, according to the Vatican the largest "Catholic nation," there are more Pentecostals doing what they call worship (giving the divine sugar daddy their wish list) in their assemblies on Sunday than there are those hearing mass.  This already became an issue in the Peruvian presidential elections.
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2011, 11:32:20 AM »

We Orthodox count in our nominal members trust me. I've never heard of any counting method based on "Easter obligation".
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2011, 11:36:55 AM »

We Orthodox count in our nominal members trust me. I've never heard of any counting method based on "Easter obligation".
It's a Latinism adopted at least by the Russian Church: In the OCA I remember signing the book set out every Lent, right after confession, which was to keep track of such things.  In the US, the list of dues paying members often suffices.
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2011, 11:55:57 AM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2011, 12:12:45 PM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.

He's definitely strong on images...but he's so weak on analysis.

He'd do just as well to post links and be done with it.
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2011, 12:30:54 PM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.

I'm not smart enough to even think to look for most of those maps.
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2011, 12:32:53 PM »

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.
Was that supposed to be an insult?
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2011, 12:45:21 PM »

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.
Was that supposed to be an insult?

Heavens no!!...you could find them all on your own.  So can I.
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2011, 12:50:19 PM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.

I'm not smart enough to even think to look for most of those maps.

Would not take much to get you there.  Besides sometimes he grabs things whether they actually make sense or not to the subject at hand...You'll note there's never any commentary or discussion.  Just cut and paste.  He counts on people's ignorance...which is not the same as stupidity.  Ignorance has one sure cure!!...Enlightenment...

The real intent is to detract from anything remotely favorable to the HUGE Catholic Church... Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2011, 12:55:53 PM »

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.
Was that supposed to be an insult?

Heavens no!!...you could find them all on your own.  So can I.
OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2011, 01:09:26 PM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.

He's definitely strong on images...but he's so weak on analysis.

He'd do just as well to post links and be done with it.
analysis of facts isn't so difficult. You should try it some it some time.
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 01:45:14 PM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.

I'm not smart enough to even think to look for most of those maps.

Would not take much to get you there.  Besides sometimes he grabs things whether they actually make sense or not to the subject at hand...You'll note there's never any commentary or discussion.
There's often commentary and discussion, and arguement of the facts.

Sometimes, however, things are so obvious that no commentary or discussion is necessary (Though I do appreciate Fabio's expansion on the Portuguese part of your program, especially where the finances came from).

Just cut and paste.  He counts on people's ignorance
no, just their common sense and the good sense the Lord gave them: unlike your preaching, no one needs a secret decoder ring to what I post.

...which is not the same as stupidity.  Ignorance has one sure cure!!...Enlightenment...
that's what we are here for.  Our job is made all the more onerous by those here to obfuscate with their own pontifications.

The real intent is to detract from anything remotely favorable to the HUGE Catholic Church... Smiley
Why would I detract from anything remotely favorable to my Church? "Enter ye in at the narrow gate:...."

As for the Vatican, it is huge":...for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat."

As Fabio pointed out, were it not for Latin America, half converted at best

and fast converting to your Protestant kin, and the sword of the Crusaders, Teutonic Knights, Polish Kings, the Venetian, Habsburg, Swedish, Spanish, Portuguese and French Empires, the Vatican's flock would be comparable to the Catholic Church in Europe.


Btw, just came across this:

Quote
Such a division of Western Europe into regional Churches could avoid the monolithic temptations of a sole centre which led in history to the pride of the Roman See and its falling away from the Orthodox Faith. At the same time, however, the existence of regional Churches would also avoid the balkanised nationalism to be found in 'local' national Churches. Thus a 'Church of the Isles' could not fall victim to, say, English or Irish nationalism, for both nationalities, together with the Scottish and the Welsh, would be 'conjoined' in one 'confederal' regional Orthodox Church. This is why Metropolitan centres should not be in secular capitals but in historic Orthodox centres, spiritual capitals - York, Trier, Roskilde, Lyons, Santiago and Rome. This would avoid the danger implied in such terms as 'Russian Orthodox' (centred in the secular capital of Moscow) and 'Greek Orthodox' (centred in the secular capital of Athens), when what is really meant is 'The Church of Russia' and 'The Church of the Hellenes'.
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/oewesteu.htm
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« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2011, 02:05:11 PM »

Btw, just came across this:

Quote
Such a division of Western Europe into regional Churches could avoid the monolithic temptations of a sole centre which led in history to the pride of the Roman See and its falling away from the Orthodox Faith. At the same time, however, the existence of regional Churches would also avoid the balkanised nationalism to be found in 'local' national Churches. Thus a 'Church of the Isles' could not fall victim to, say, English or Irish nationalism, for both nationalities, together with the Scottish and the Welsh, would be 'conjoined' in one 'confederal' regional Orthodox Church. This is why Metropolitan centres should not be in secular capitals but in historic Orthodox centres, spiritual capitals - York, Trier, Roskilde, Lyons, Santiago and Rome. This would avoid the danger implied in such terms as 'Russian Orthodox' (centred in the secular capital of Moscow) and 'Greek Orthodox' (centred in the secular capital of Athens), when what is really meant is 'The Church of Russia' and 'The Church of the Hellenes'.
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/oewesteu.htm

 Huh This provides just as much negative feedback against Orthodoxy as it does Roman Catholicism. Unless I am misunderstanding something.
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« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2011, 02:34:30 PM »

Catholics massage their statistics be claiming as a member everyone who was baptized, no matter if he went on in life to be the head of the Global Atheist Union.

We work our statistics by counting how many people fulfil their Easter obligation - a more sure statistic.


One third of Catholic membership is located in South America - "nominals" by and large.

Take out the South Americans and your statistics are getting close to the Orthodox.

Father A: We should be careful with the 'they count the baptized' argument. Many assert that the numbers of faithful claimed by the Orthodox Churches of Russia and Greece include 'nominal' Christians in their 'head counts', not just those who are actually part of the sacramental Church.

Ohhh...and take away one of my "laffs for the day"...?   

I say let him rip!!

Well, seeing is believing I guess.

Here is a You Tube showing the visit last year of the Kursk Root icon to Russia ( after decades of exile since the Russian Revolution) . This is a clip of Kursk Russia. The crowd estimate is over 800,000. Moscow was similar.

There is a longer video that really shows the size of the crowed better and also the disposition of the people waiting to venerate the Icon. Many were weeping. I will try to find it. The lines were so tremendously long that Priests had to walk out and find elderly and sick people and allow them to get in sooner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwfaUG67wy4
 
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« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2011, 02:38:05 PM »

Why doesn't anybody ever talk about Protestant "nominals"? I've know far too many of the "got saved when I was 10" type.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:38:54 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2011, 02:40:53 PM »

Btw, just came across this:

Quote
Such a division of Western Europe into regional Churches could avoid the monolithic temptations of a sole centre which led in history to the pride of the Roman See and its falling away from the Orthodox Faith. At the same time, however, the existence of regional Churches would also avoid the balkanised nationalism to be found in 'local' national Churches. Thus a 'Church of the Isles' could not fall victim to, say, English or Irish nationalism, for both nationalities, together with the Scottish and the Welsh, would be 'conjoined' in one 'confederal' regional Orthodox Church. This is why Metropolitan centres should not be in secular capitals but in historic Orthodox centres, spiritual capitals - York, Trier, Roskilde, Lyons, Santiago and Rome. This would avoid the danger implied in such terms as 'Russian Orthodox' (centred in the secular capital of Moscow) and 'Greek Orthodox' (centred in the secular capital of Athens), when what is really meant is 'The Church of Russia' and 'The Church of the Hellenes'.
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/oewesteu.htm

 Huh This provides just as much negative feedback against Orthodoxy as it does Roman Catholicism. Unless I am misunderstanding something.
and?  I never said I was satisfied with the present state of Orthodoxy.  None of us should. We have no reason to fear looking at our warts, and removing them.

Btw, I'll note, that the linked essay is from 1988, before the Orthodox spring.  It seems, with the Episcopal Assemblies, we are just catching up.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:42:27 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2011, 02:44:02 PM »

as the founder of this thread.... i say EVERYONE BE NICE!
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« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2011, 02:45:29 PM »

Isa always gives us the best maps. Smiley

Bet you could look them up too...all by yourself.

I'm not smart enough to even think to look for most of those maps.
btw, some related maps (some already posted here).
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38754.msg623523.html#msg623523
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:45:50 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2011, 03:22:19 PM »

Btw, some comparison for history:
This is the situation, more or less for today, and in 1054, more or less:

there are several inaccuracies in the 1054 (the "Roman Catholic" part of Romania and southern Italy was probably majority Orthodox population, ruled by vassals of the Vatican, as so shown here:

but for comparison, it is close enough.  This is a little more accurate, but portrays the Church a few centuries before and a copule after the Schism

for Iberia in the West (cut off on the one map)

the Muslim states had large Christian and Jewish populations, as the Christians states in the North had large Jewish and Muslim populations.  North Africa West of Egypt also had a large Christian population.

Iceland should be shown as following Rome, although no doubt that didn't happen until much, much later: the Norse continued relations with Constantinople and Kiev.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 03:26:19 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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