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Author Topic: The Sacred Heart as I know it.  (Read 22831 times) Average Rating: 0
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Schultz
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« Reply #405 on: October 25, 2011, 11:50:57 AM »

Yes, it is forbidden, in the Orthodox Church, to pray together with those of a different faith. The Moscow Patriarchate, by far the largest and most predominant Orthodox Church in the world, has clarified this recently and it is on the conscience of every Orthodox Christian whether Russian Orthodox or not.

But attending some event at a non-Orthodox church is not the same as the sin of praying with the non-Orthodox. I'm sure the fellow who attended his family member's chrismation did not actually say the prayers together with the Roman-Catholic people, or sing along on anything. If so, it was a sin. But doubtless he was simply showing respect for his family, not (God forbid!) seeking some kind of spiritual nourishment from the heretical church.

One can show love, without sacrificing the truth of Christ. Due to heresies having entered in, we cannot all participate in Sacraments together, but we can participate, without asking any blessing or waiting on anyone else, jump in and participate in the Sacrament of Love for one another.

Just because someone does something wrong, or picks up a wrong belief, is not a reason to cease loving him.
if an Orthodox said a prayer with a Catholic, would he go to hell for that? Or would he be able to be purified in Purgatory with other Catholics and then get to go to heaven?
since purgatory doesn't exist, no.
Well then if you said a prayer, say the Our Father, with a Catholic and did not have a chance to repent, would you go to heaven or hell?
I'll never find out.

Well, you DID pray with my wife when we had dinner. Wink
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« Reply #406 on: October 25, 2011, 11:52:43 AM »

Yes, it is forbidden, in the Orthodox Church, to pray together with those of a different faith. The Moscow Patriarchate, by far the largest and most predominant Orthodox Church in the world, has clarified this recently and it is on the conscience of every Orthodox Christian whether Russian Orthodox or not.

But attending some event at a non-Orthodox church is not the same as the sin of praying with the non-Orthodox. I'm sure the fellow who attended his family member's chrismation did not actually say the prayers together with the Roman-Catholic people, or sing along on anything. If so, it was a sin. But doubtless he was simply showing respect for his family, not (God forbid!) seeking some kind of spiritual nourishment from the heretical church.

One can show love, without sacrificing the truth of Christ. Due to heresies having entered in, we cannot all participate in Sacraments together, but we can participate, without asking any blessing or waiting on anyone else, jump in and participate in the Sacrament of Love for one another.

Just because someone does something wrong, or picks up a wrong belief, is not a reason to cease loving him.
if an Orthodox said a prayer with a Catholic, would he go to hell for that? Or would he be able to be purified in Purgatory with other Catholics and then get to go to heaven?
since purgatory doesn't exist, no.
Well then if you said a prayer, say the Our Father, with a Catholic and did not have a chance to repent, would you go to heaven or hell?
I'll never find out.

Well, you DID pray with my wife when we had dinner. Wink

Uh, ohhh..... Shocked  Wink


Was there *tea*, afterwards  Grin?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 11:53:45 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #407 on: October 25, 2011, 12:01:49 PM »

Yes, it is forbidden, in the Orthodox Church, to pray together with those of a different faith. The Moscow Patriarchate, by far the largest and most predominant Orthodox Church in the world, has clarified this recently and it is on the conscience of every Orthodox Christian whether Russian Orthodox or not.

But attending some event at a non-Orthodox church is not the same as the sin of praying with the non-Orthodox. I'm sure the fellow who attended his family member's chrismation did not actually say the prayers together with the Roman-Catholic people, or sing along on anything. If so, it was a sin. But doubtless he was simply showing respect for his family, not (God forbid!) seeking some kind of spiritual nourishment from the heretical church.

One can show love, without sacrificing the truth of Christ. Due to heresies having entered in, we cannot all participate in Sacraments together, but we can participate, without asking any blessing or waiting on anyone else, jump in and participate in the Sacrament of Love for one another.

Just because someone does something wrong, or picks up a wrong belief, is not a reason to cease loving him.
if an Orthodox said a prayer with a Catholic, would he go to hell for that? Or would he be able to be purified in Purgatory with other Catholics and then get to go to heaven?
since purgatory doesn't exist, no.
Well then if you said a prayer, say the Our Father, with a Catholic and did not have a chance to repent, would you go to heaven or hell?
I'll never find out.

Well, you DID pray with my wife when we had dinner. Wink

Uh, ohhh..... Shocked  Wink


Was there *tea*, afterwards  Grin?

It was a Chinese restaurant so there was tea before, during and after.
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« Reply #408 on: October 25, 2011, 12:03:41 PM »

Yes, it is forbidden, in the Orthodox Church, to pray together with those of a different faith. The Moscow Patriarchate, by far the largest and most predominant Orthodox Church in the world, has clarified this recently and it is on the conscience of every Orthodox Christian whether Russian Orthodox or not.

But attending some event at a non-Orthodox church is not the same as the sin of praying with the non-Orthodox. I'm sure the fellow who attended his family member's chrismation did not actually say the prayers together with the Roman-Catholic people, or sing along on anything. If so, it was a sin. But doubtless he was simply showing respect for his family, not (God forbid!) seeking some kind of spiritual nourishment from the heretical church.

One can show love, without sacrificing the truth of Christ. Due to heresies having entered in, we cannot all participate in Sacraments together, but we can participate, without asking any blessing or waiting on anyone else, jump in and participate in the Sacrament of Love for one another.

Just because someone does something wrong, or picks up a wrong belief, is not a reason to cease loving him.
if an Orthodox said a prayer with a Catholic, would he go to hell for that? Or would he be able to be purified in Purgatory with other Catholics and then get to go to heaven?
since purgatory doesn't exist, no.
Well then if you said a prayer, say the Our Father, with a Catholic and did not have a chance to repent, would you go to heaven or hell?
I'll never find out.

Well, you DID pray with my wife when we had dinner. Wink

Uh, ohhh..... Shocked  Wink


Was there *tea*, afterwards  Grin?

It was a Chinese restaurant so there was tea before, during and after.

Pheee-----ew  Grin.  I guess there were no casualties, then, eh?  Wink
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« Reply #409 on: October 25, 2011, 01:00:54 PM »

Yes, it is forbidden, in the Orthodox Church, to pray together with those of a different faith. The Moscow Patriarchate, by far the largest and most predominant Orthodox Church in the world, has clarified this recently and it is on the conscience of every Orthodox Christian whether Russian Orthodox or not.

But attending some event at a non-Orthodox church is not the same as the sin of praying with the non-Orthodox. I'm sure the fellow who attended his family member's chrismation did not actually say the prayers together with the Roman-Catholic people, or sing along on anything. If so, it was a sin. But doubtless he was simply showing respect for his family, not (God forbid!) seeking some kind of spiritual nourishment from the heretical church.

One can show love, without sacrificing the truth of Christ. Due to heresies having entered in, we cannot all participate in Sacraments together, but we can participate, without asking any blessing or waiting on anyone else, jump in and participate in the Sacrament of Love for one another.

Just because someone does something wrong, or picks up a wrong belief, is not a reason to cease loving him.
if an Orthodox said a prayer with a Catholic, would he go to hell for that? Or would he be able to be purified in Purgatory with other Catholics and then get to go to heaven?
since purgatory doesn't exist, no.
Well then if you said a prayer, say the Our Father, with a Catholic and did not have a chance to repent, would you go to heaven or hell?
I'll never find out.

Well, you DID pray with my wife when we had dinner. Wink
LOL. And although I thereafter sailed off to the Bermuda Triangle, I lived to tell the tale.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #410 on: October 25, 2011, 01:41:28 PM »

We can always say she prayed with US instead of the other way around Wink
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« Reply #411 on: October 25, 2011, 02:05:25 PM »

We can always say she prayed with US instead of the other way around Wink
we could if we were Jesuits.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #412 on: October 25, 2011, 02:08:04 PM »

We can always say she prayed with US instead of the other way around Wink
we could if we were Jesuits.

Tea, anybody  Grin Grin?
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« Reply #413 on: October 25, 2011, 05:42:18 PM »

We can always say she prayed with US instead of the other way around Wink
we could if we were Jesuits.

Oh...you  mean if you can think clearly and accurately and prayerfully all at once?...

I agree!!
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« Reply #414 on: October 26, 2011, 12:57:16 AM »

Yes, it is forbidden, in the Orthodox Church, to pray together with those of a different faith. The Moscow Patriarchate, by far the largest and most predominant Orthodox Church in the world, has clarified this recently and it is on the conscience of every Orthodox Christian whether Russian Orthodox or not.

But attending some event at a non-Orthodox church is not the same as the sin of praying with the non-Orthodox. I'm sure the fellow who attended his family member's chrismation did not actually say the prayers together with the Roman-Catholic people, or sing along on anything. If so, it was a sin. But doubtless he was simply showing respect for his family, not (God forbid!) seeking some kind of spiritual nourishment from the heretical church.

One can show love, without sacrificing the truth of Christ. Due to heresies having entered in, we cannot all participate in Sacraments together, but we can participate, without asking any blessing or waiting on anyone else, jump in and participate in the Sacrament of Love for one another.

Just because someone does something wrong, or picks up a wrong belief, is not a reason to cease loving him.
if an Orthodox said a prayer with a Catholic, would he go to hell for that? Or would he be able to be purified in Purgatory with other Catholics and then get to go to heaven?
since purgatory doesn't exist, no.
Well then if you said a prayer, say the Our Father, with a Catholic and did not have a chance to repent, would you go to heaven or hell?
I'll never find out.

Well, you DID pray with my wife when we had dinner. Wink
Does that mean that  he violated a canon of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is that a sin at all to violate such a canon or can the canons of the Holy Orthodox Church safely be ignored? And you will get to heaven regardless of whether you observe or whether you violate such canons?
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« Reply #415 on: October 26, 2011, 01:37:53 AM »

Quote
Does that mean that  he violated a canon of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is that a sin at all to violate such a canon or can the canons of the Holy Orthodox Church safely be ignored? And you will get to heaven regardless of whether you observe or whether you violate such canons?

Stanley, last time I checked, the canon you are so fond of bringing up is also part of your church's tradition. I ask you again: Are there no mixed marriages in your family? And, furthermore, if a close friend or relative of yours who is not RC invited you to a wedding, baptism/christening or other church service, what would you do?
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« Reply #416 on: October 26, 2011, 11:15:15 AM »

Quote
Does that mean that  he violated a canon of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is that a sin at all to violate such a canon or can the canons of the Holy Orthodox Church safely be ignored? And you will get to heaven regardless of whether you observe or whether you violate such canons?

Stanley, last time I checked, the canon you are so fond of bringing up is also part of your church's tradition. I ask you again: Are there no mixed marriages in your family? And, furthermore, if a close friend or relative of yours who is not RC invited you to a wedding, baptism/christening or other church service, what would you do?

I won't pretend to speak for Stanley, as he's more than capable for speaking for himself, but I will just say that the canon I *think* people are talking about (I write "think", because to the best of my knowledge no one has yet specified *any particular canon*, so maybe there really even isn't one!) has to do with Orthodox being forbidden, at least *according to Fr. Aidan*, to pray with those not of Orthodoxy.  In the Catholic Church, members of any church are welcome to pray with us, and members of the Orthodox Church, the ACOE, the Polish National Catholic Church are welcomed to partake of Holy Communion, while being encouraged to be in obedience with the canons of their own church.  One only has to read the inside (back) cover of the missalette found in virtually every Catholic church to verify that.
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« Reply #417 on: October 26, 2011, 11:25:09 AM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP
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« Reply #418 on: October 26, 2011, 11:40:58 AM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink, and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
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« Reply #419 on: October 26, 2011, 12:11:08 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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« Reply #420 on: October 26, 2011, 12:17:26 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
ialmisry
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« Reply #421 on: October 26, 2011, 12:35:43 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #422 on: October 26, 2011, 12:39:09 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.
Speaking of that, I have a question. So the Virgin appeared to that Portugese girl right? If so, does that mean that anyone asking the Virgin to pray for them did not get answered?

PP
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« Reply #423 on: October 26, 2011, 12:45:39 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.
Speaking of that, I have a question. So the Virgin appeared to that Portugese girl right? If so, does that mean that anyone asking the Virgin to pray for them did not get answered?

PP

Where'd you get *that* idea?
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #424 on: October 26, 2011, 12:52:55 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.

I don't need to criticize it.  I've heard plenty of criticisms of both of those (and others), and to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, no one, if Catholic (and even if not Catholic), has been beheaded, sent to Devil's Island, or even excommunicated for doing so. 

I guess, too, how a critic is responded to depends, at least in part, on the tone and substance of their criticism.  There are those who criticize just to criticize, because that's what they do, and have nothing to offer except their criticism.  Then there are those who criticize out of ignorance; those who criticize in order to understand more deeply and thoroughly; those who criticize because they see a perceived flaw and have something constructive to offer in return...and so on.
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« Reply #425 on: October 26, 2011, 12:55:39 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.
Speaking of that, I have a question. So the Virgin appeared to that Portugese girl right? If so, does that mean that anyone asking the Virgin to pray for them did not get answered?

PP

Where'd you get *that* idea?
just using reason....if the Virgin was appearing to that kid for those prohpesies then she could not very well be praying to the Lord for us. So if anyone did so during that time, then the Virgin ignored it....right?


PP
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« Reply #426 on: October 26, 2011, 01:45:00 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.
Speaking of that, I have a question. So the Virgin appeared to that Portugese girl right? If so, does that mean that anyone asking the Virgin to pray for them did not get answered?

PP

Where'd you get *that* idea?
just using reason....if the Virgin was appearing to that kid for those prohpesies then she could not very well be praying to the Lord for us. So if anyone did so during that time, then the Virgin ignored it....right?


PP

Okay, now I understand your question  Wink!  I'm afraid, however, that that's above my pay-grade  Sad.  Based on my poor human logic, given that the Theotokos is NOT God, and unable to be in more than one place at a "time", the best I can offer is that when she was appearing at Fatima, as when she was appearing to St. Seraphim of Sarov, or at Zeitoun, she was only in that one place at that time.  As for what else occurred, I couldn't say.  Now, she *could* be appearing somewhere, *and* simultaneously praying to God for us--you know, like I can be here at my desk and pray at the same time.  How is it that many holy people are able to go about their business, have conversations, do work, etc. *and* be continuously praying to God?

What point are you trying to make?
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« Reply #427 on: October 26, 2011, 02:29:51 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.

I don't need to criticize it.  I've heard plenty of criticisms of both of those (and others), and to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, no one, if Catholic (and even if not Catholic), has been beheaded, sent to Devil's Island, or even excommunicated for doing so. 
Crack open a book predating Vatican II.

I remember they had a video on EWTN, and they were all gushing about how the heart attack of a bus driver on their pilgrimage to Fatima.  The bus driver told them that they had to lay their statue of "Our Lady of Fatima" down in the aisle of the bus, as it was a driving hazard standing up.  They were giddy when the bus driver on the return trip had a heart attack and they had to lay him down in the same spot, waiting for the ambulance.  They took the heart attack as a wonderful sign from God. I took their obvious glee as a sign of their perversity.

I guess, too, how a critic is responded to depends, at least in part, on the tone and substance of their criticism.  There are those who criticize just to criticize, because that's what they do, and have nothing to offer except their criticism.  Then there are those who criticize out of ignorance; those who criticize in order to understand more deeply and thoroughly; those who criticize because they see a perceived flaw and have something constructive to offer in return...and so on.
one need only state that one does not personally believe in the visions of Sr. Marguerite Marie or Sr. Lucia and her cousins, and see what happens.

So, can one opt out of the supreme pontiff's consecration of the world to Fatima's "immaculate heart"?
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« Reply #428 on: October 26, 2011, 02:44:10 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.

I don't need to criticize it.  I've heard plenty of criticisms of both of those (and others), and to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, no one, if Catholic (and even if not Catholic), has been beheaded, sent to Devil's Island, or even excommunicated for doing so. 
Crack open a book predating Vatican II.

I remember they had a video on EWTN, and they were all gushing about how the heart attack of a bus driver on their pilgrimage to Fatima.  The bus driver told them that they had to lay their statue of "Our Lady of Fatima" down in the aisle of the bus, as it was a driving hazard standing up.  They were giddy when the bus driver on the return trip had a heart attack and they had to lay him down in the same spot, waiting for the ambulance.  They took the heart attack as a wonderful sign from God. I took their obvious glee as a sign of their perversity.

I guess, too, how a critic is responded to depends, at least in part, on the tone and substance of their criticism.  There are those who criticize just to criticize, because that's what they do, and have nothing to offer except their criticism.  Then there are those who criticize out of ignorance; those who criticize in order to understand more deeply and thoroughly; those who criticize because they see a perceived flaw and have something constructive to offer in return...and so on.
one need only state that one does not personally believe in the visions of Sr. Marguerite Marie or Sr. Lucia and her cousins, and see what happens.

So, can one opt out of the supreme pontiff's consecration of the world to Fatima's "immaculate heart"?

Which page(s) of the several million books in print did you have in mind? 

The way you describe the EWTN video is actually pretty funny!  But then, I have a strange sense of humor  Grin.  Is that how it ended, with the bus driver laying down, waiting for the ambulance? 

Was the pope's "consecration of the world to Fatima's 'immaculate heart'" an ex-cathedra, infallible statement about faith and morals?  (Uh oh...here we go again...)

Just out of curiosity, why does all of this seem to matter so much to you?  I'm genuinely asking, not trying to be provocative or snippy or anything.  It's just that you appear, by what you write and how you write it (not just here, but in many threads), to have been somehow deeply hurt by and therefore very bitter towards Catholics/the Catholic Church/Catholicism.  That is not, by the way, a criticism.  Just an observation which may, in fact, be incorrect.  Forgive me if I'm out of line for asking.
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« Reply #429 on: October 26, 2011, 03:08:54 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.

I don't need to criticize it.  I've heard plenty of criticisms of both of those (and others), and to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, no one, if Catholic (and even if not Catholic), has been beheaded, sent to Devil's Island, or even excommunicated for doing so.
Crack open a book predating Vatican II.

I remember they had a video on EWTN, and they were all gushing about how the heart attack of a bus driver on their pilgrimage to Fatima.  The bus driver told them that they had to lay their statue of "Our Lady of Fatima" down in the aisle of the bus, as it was a driving hazard standing up.  They were giddy when the bus driver on the return trip had a heart attack and they had to lay him down in the same spot, waiting for the ambulance.  They took the heart attack as a wonderful sign from God. I took their obvious glee as a sign of their perversity.

I guess, too, how a critic is responded to depends, at least in part, on the tone and substance of their criticism.  There are those who criticize just to criticize, because that's what they do, and have nothing to offer except their criticism.  Then there are those who criticize out of ignorance; those who criticize in order to understand more deeply and thoroughly; those who criticize because they see a perceived flaw and have something constructive to offer in return...and so on.
one need only state that one does not personally believe in the visions of Sr. Marguerite Marie or Sr. Lucia and her cousins, and see what happens.

So, can one opt out of the supreme pontiff's consecration of the world to Fatima's "immaculate heart"?

Which page(s) of the several million books in print did you have in mind?
Anyone dealing with the doings of the Vatican.

The way you describe the EWTN video is actually pretty funny!  But then, I have a strange sense of humor  Grin.  Is that how it ended, with the bus driver laying down, waiting for the ambulance?
No, the cultists gloating over him, and then into the wonders of whoever joins the cult of Fatima.

Was the pope's "consecration of the world to Fatima's 'immaculate heart'" an ex-cathedra, infallible statement about faith and morals?  (Uh oh...here we go again...)
I guess we would have to wait until they sort out whether the Vatican did it to the specifications of Fatima or not.  There seems to be some debate on that.

Just out of curiosity, why does all of this seem to matter so much to you?
Well, for one, the Fatimists have their ilk bothering us to fulfil "the prophecy of Fatima" with the conversion of Russia.

I'm genuinely asking, not trying to be provocative or snippy or anything.  It's just that you appear, by what you write and how you write it (not just here, but in many threads), to have been somehow deeply hurt by and therefore very bitter towards Catholics/the Catholic Church/Catholicism.
No, sorry to disappoint you, but no, I wasn't molested by the brothers in HS nor beaten by the nuns in grammar school (for one, I went to a public grammar school).  No hurt, no bitterness. Just a quirk of calling a spade a spade.

That is not, by the way, a criticism.  Just an observation which may, in fact, be incorrect.  Forgive me if I'm out of line for asking.
no problem.  Didn't bother me at all.
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« Reply #430 on: October 26, 2011, 03:18:01 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP
I think it's creepy that anyone thinks that the Sacred Heart devotion is creepy.
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« Reply #431 on: October 26, 2011, 03:45:34 PM »

After 10 pages of posts, I still say the Sacred Heart is creepy.

PP

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion  Wink Wink,
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he is.

and under no obligation whatsoever to participate in the devotion or even think about it!  Grin
not being under the Vatican's jurisdiction, of course he's not.

Even if he were "under the Vatican's jurisdiction", he's still entitled to his opinion and under no obligation with regard to the Sacred Heart Devotion.
yeah, that's what they say. Try to criticize it (and there is much to criticize, as we have seen).  Ditto the Fatima cult.

I don't need to criticize it.  I've heard plenty of criticisms of both of those (and others), and to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, no one, if Catholic (and even if not Catholic), has been beheaded, sent to Devil's Island, or even excommunicated for doing so.
Crack open a book predating Vatican II.

I remember they had a video on EWTN, and they were all gushing about how the heart attack of a bus driver on their pilgrimage to Fatima.  The bus driver told them that they had to lay their statue of "Our Lady of Fatima" down in the aisle of the bus, as it was a driving hazard standing up.  They were giddy when the bus driver on the return trip had a heart attack and they had to lay him down in the same spot, waiting for the ambulance.  They took the heart attack as a wonderful sign from God. I took their obvious glee as a sign of their perversity.

I guess, too, how a critic is responded to depends, at least in part, on the tone and substance of their criticism.  There are those who criticize just to criticize, because that's what they do, and have nothing to offer except their criticism.  Then there are those who criticize out of ignorance; those who criticize in order to understand more deeply and thoroughly; those who criticize because they see a perceived flaw and have something constructive to offer in return...and so on.
one need only state that one does not personally believe in the visions of Sr. Marguerite Marie or Sr. Lucia and her cousins, and see what happens.

So, can one opt out of the supreme pontiff's consecration of the world to Fatima's "immaculate heart"?

Which page(s) of the several million books in print did you have in mind?
Anyone dealing with the doings of the Vatican.

The way you describe the EWTN video is actually pretty funny!  But then, I have a strange sense of humor  Grin.  Is that how it ended, with the bus driver laying down, waiting for the ambulance?
No, the cultists gloating over him, and then into the wonders of whoever joins the cult of Fatima.

Was the pope's "consecration of the world to Fatima's 'immaculate heart'" an ex-cathedra, infallible statement about faith and morals?  (Uh oh...here we go again...)
I guess we would have to wait until they sort out whether the Vatican did it to the specifications of Fatima or not.  There seems to be some debate on that.

Just out of curiosity, why does all of this seem to matter so much to you?
Well, for one, the Fatimists have their ilk bothering us to fulfil "the prophecy of Fatima" with the conversion of Russia.

I'm genuinely asking, not trying to be provocative or snippy or anything.  It's just that you appear, by what you write and how you write it (not just here, but in many threads), to have been somehow deeply hurt by and therefore very bitter towards Catholics/the Catholic Church/Catholicism.
No, sorry to disappoint you, but no, I wasn't molested by the brothers in HS nor beaten by the nuns in grammar school (for one, I went to a public grammar school).  No hurt, no bitterness. Just a quirk of calling a spade a spade.

That is not, by the way, a criticism.  Just an observation which may, in fact, be incorrect.  Forgive me if I'm out of line for asking.
no problem.  Didn't bother me at all.

Wow, why on earth would you think I'd be disappointed that you weren't molested by the brothers, etc.Huh  I know we've had some deep disagreements and harsh words with each other before, but please........to think that of me (or of anyone else, for that matter) is **really** unkind and uncharitable--not to mention just plain wrong.

I know you like to call a spade a spade.  It's just the manner in which you do it that makes me think you've been somehow hurt, etc.  Others do so, but are far less vitriolic, condescending, and just plain nasty than you can sometimes be.  Forgive me for being blunt.  My experience is that usually, but not always, people who write/respond in that kind of manner are harboring some kind of deep, unhealed hurt--even though they may not be consciously aware of it.  If I'm wrong about that with regards to you, then I'm wrong.  It won't be the first time, nor the last that I've been wrong about something  Wink.  Hurt, by the way, can come from a multitude of other sources besides brothers or nuns or priests.  But I guess you know that.

And....just for the record, for whatever it's worth, I have my own doubts about Fatima.  And I'll have nothing to do with Medjugorje, even though I personally know of some very deep, real, and sincere conversions that have taken place there.  Go figure...
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« Reply #432 on: October 26, 2011, 04:26:52 PM »

If there be a Christian who has part in the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, or the Church of the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ, then let him know he is forbidden to pray together with any man of any other faith.

1.   Canon 10 of the Holy Apostles: "If one who is not in communion prays together, even at home, let him be excommunicated”

2.   Canon 11 of the Holy Apostles: "If one who is a priest prays together with a defrocked priest, let him too be defrocked.”

3.   Canon 45 of the Holy Apostles: "A Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon that only prays together with heretics, should be excommunicated; if he has permitted them to perform anything as Clergymen, let him be defrocked.”

4.   Canon 64 of the Holy Apostles: "If a Clergyman or a Layman should enter a Jewish synagogue, or pray with heretics, let him be excommunicated and defrocked.”

5.   Canon 71 of the Holy Apostles: "If a Christian should bring oil to a Gentile altar, or to a Jewish synagogue during their feast-days, or light lamps, let him be excommunicated”

6.   Canon 6 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "On the matter of not allowing heretics to enter the house of God, who persist in their heresy"

7.   Canon 9 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "On the matter of not allowing those who are of the Church to go to the cemeteries or to the so-called places of martyrdom of all who are heretics, on the pretext of a blessing or a cure; if they are of the faithful, let them be excommunicated for a certain time, and, after repenting and confessing that they erred, be re-admitted.”

8.   Canon 32 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "That it is not permitted to accept the blessings of heretics, which are foolishness rather than blessings”

9.   Canon 33 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "That one must not pray together with heretics or schismatics”

10.  Canon 34 of the Local Synod of Laodicea:. “That it is not proper for any Christian to abandon the witnesses of Christ and go to the false witnesses, that is to say the heretics, or to those who are predisposed to becoming heretics.  For they are alien to God. Let them therefore be anathema, who would depart for their sake.”

11.  Canon 37 of the Local Synod of Laodicea:. "One must not accept the festive tokens sent by Jews or heretics, nor celebrate together with them."

12.   Canon 9 of Timothy of Alexandria: "Question. May a Clergyman offer prayers in the presence of Arians or other heretics?  Or does this not harm him in any way, whenever he performs the benediction, that is, the offering?;  Reply. During the divine anaphora, the Deacon recites this address prior to the greeting: "Those not in communion, walk away”. Therefore, they do not need to be present, unless they have reported their intention to repent and abandon the heresy" 

To the above Canons, one must also add the following: 

13.   Canon B’ of the Antioch Synod: "All those entering the Church and listening to the divine Scriptures, but not participating in the prayer together with the people, or displaying aversion to the Holy Communion of the Eucharist as an act of disorderliness, let them be cast out of the Church, until they have confessed and have shown works of repentance and are able to beseech forgiveness, thereafter not intending to be in communion with the excommunicated, nor congregate in houses with those who do not pray together in Church, nor with those who do not congregate.  Should any of the bishops, or presbyters, or deacons, or someone of the Canon be seen in communion with the excommunicated, let them also be excommunicated, as ones who have confused the Canon of the Church.”

14.  Canon A’ of the 4th Ecumenical Synod, (which validates the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria)

15.  Canon B’ of the 6th Ecumenical Synod, (which validates the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria).

16.  Canon A’ of the 7th Ecumenical Synod , (which validates the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria). 
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« Reply #433 on: October 26, 2011, 04:36:31 PM »

If there be a Christian who has part in the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, or the Church of the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ, then let him know he is forbidden to pray together with any man of any other faith.

1.   Canon 10 of the Holy Apostles: "If one who is not in communion prays together, even at home, let him be excommunicated”

2.   Canon 11 of the Holy Apostles: "If one who is a priest prays together with a defrocked priest, let him too be defrocked.”

3.   Canon 45 of the Holy Apostles: "A Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon that only prays together with heretics, should be excommunicated; if he has permitted them to perform anything as Clergymen, let him be defrocked.”

4.   Canon 64 of the Holy Apostles: "If a Clergyman or a Layman should enter a Jewish synagogue, or pray with heretics, let him be excommunicated and defrocked.”

5.   Canon 71 of the Holy Apostles: "If a Christian should bring oil to a Gentile altar, or to a Jewish synagogue during their feast-days, or light lamps, let him be excommunicated”

6.   Canon 6 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "On the matter of not allowing heretics to enter the house of God, who persist in their heresy"

7.   Canon 9 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "On the matter of not allowing those who are of the Church to go to the cemeteries or to the so-called places of martyrdom of all who are heretics, on the pretext of a blessing or a cure; if they are of the faithful, let them be excommunicated for a certain time, and, after repenting and confessing that they erred, be re-admitted.”

8.   Canon 32 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "That it is not permitted to accept the blessings of heretics, which are foolishness rather than blessings”

9.   Canon 33 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "That one must not pray together with heretics or schismatics”

10.  Canon 34 of the Local Synod of Laodicea:. “That it is not proper for any Christian to abandon the witnesses of Christ and go to the false witnesses, that is to say the heretics, or to those who are predisposed to becoming heretics.  For they are alien to God. Let them therefore be anathema, who would depart for their sake.”

11.  Canon 37 of the Local Synod of Laodicea:. "One must not accept the festive tokens sent by Jews or heretics, nor celebrate together with them."

12.   Canon 9 of Timothy of Alexandria: "Question. May a Clergyman offer prayers in the presence of Arians or other heretics?  Or does this not harm him in any way, whenever he performs the benediction, that is, the offering?;  Reply. During the divine anaphora, the Deacon recites this address prior to the greeting: "Those not in communion, walk away”. Therefore, they do not need to be present, unless they have reported their intention to repent and abandon the heresy" 

To the above Canons, one must also add the following: 

13.   Canon B’ of the Antioch Synod: "All those entering the Church and listening to the divine Scriptures, but not participating in the prayer together with the people, or displaying aversion to the Holy Communion of the Eucharist as an act of disorderliness, let them be cast out of the Church, until they have confessed and have shown works of repentance and are able to beseech forgiveness, thereafter not intending to be in communion with the excommunicated, nor congregate in houses with those who do not pray together in Church, nor with those who do not congregate.  Should any of the bishops, or presbyters, or deacons, or someone of the Canon be seen in communion with the excommunicated, let them also be excommunicated, as ones who have confused the Canon of the Church.”

14.  Canon A’ of the 4th Ecumenical Synod, (which validates the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria)

15.  Canon B’ of the 6th Ecumenical Synod, (which validates the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria).

16.  Canon A’ of the 7th Ecumenical Synod , (which validates the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria). 

From wikipedia (sorry!): The Apostolic Canons[1] or Ecclesiastical Canons of the Same Holy Apostles[2] is a collection of ancient ecclesiastical decrees concerning the government and discipline of the Early Christian Church, first found as last chapter of the eighth book of the Apostolic Constitutions and belonging to genre of the Church Orders.

These eighty-five canons were approved by the Eastern Council in Trullo in 692 but rejected by Pope Constantine. In the Western Church only fifty of these canons circulated, translated in Latin by Dionysius Exiguus in about 500 AD, and included in the Western collections and afterwards in the "Corpus Juris Canonici". Canon n. 85 contains a list of canonical books, thus it is important for the history of the Biblical canon.


Are those the canons you are quoting above?

Are canons of a local synod binding on the whole Church?
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« Reply #434 on: October 26, 2011, 04:52:17 PM »

Pope Adrian of Rome confirmed every single canon of Trullo (Sixth Ecumenical Council), even though other Popes after him did not.

The canons of a local council are binding for the whole Church, when an Ecumenical Council representing the whole Church and accepted by the whole Church, makes them so.
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« Reply #435 on: October 26, 2011, 04:57:54 PM »

Pope Adrian of Rome confirmed every single canon of Trullo (Sixth Ecumenical Council), even though other Popes after him did not.

The canons of a local council are binding for the whole Church, when an Ecumenical Council representing the whole Church and accepted by the whole Church, makes them so.

Why did Pope Constantine (as above) reject them?  And what significance did that rejection have?

By the way, thanks for posting those.  At least now there's something real to talk about rather than "So and so said such and such, therefore it must be true"  Wink.

It would seem that if all the canons you quoted were accepted by all Catholics and Orthodox and rigorously and consistently applied, there'd be a helluva lot of folks in really deep doo doo--popes, patriarchs, metropolitans, archbishops, bishops, priests, deacons, sub-deacons, readers, religious, lay people--of all ilks.  Eeeeeeeeeek!!!!  (At least my cats are safe  Wink!!)
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« Reply #436 on: October 26, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »

Pope Adrian of Rome confirmed every single canon of Trullo (Sixth Ecumenical Council), even though other Popes after him did not.

The canons of a local council are binding for the whole Church, when an Ecumenical Council representing the whole Church and accepted by the whole Church, makes them so.

As long as I have been interacting with Orthodox faithful it has been made ABUNDANTLY clear to me that reception of the canons must come from the entire Church and that takes time, and sometimes a LONG time.

Apparently...in the long run...not all of the aforementioned canons have been received by the whole Church.

M.
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« Reply #437 on: October 26, 2011, 06:48:18 PM »

If there be a Christian who has part in the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, or the Church of the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ, then let him know he is forbidden to pray together with any man of any other faith.

1.   Canon 10 of the Holy Apostles: "If one who is not in communion prays together, even at home, let him be excommunicated”

2.   Canon 11 of the Holy Apostles: "If one who is a priest prays together with a defrocked priest, let him too be defrocked.”

3.   Canon 45 of the Holy Apostles: "A Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon that only prays together with heretics, should be excommunicated; if he has permitted them to perform anything as Clergymen, let him be defrocked.”

4.   Canon 64 of the Holy Apostles: "If a Clergyman or a Layman should enter a Jewish synagogue, or pray with heretics, let him be excommunicated and defrocked.”

5.   Canon 71 of the Holy Apostles: "If a Christian should bring oil to a Gentile altar, or to a Jewish synagogue during their feast-days, or light lamps, let him be excommunicated”

6.   Canon 6 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "On the matter of not allowing heretics to enter the house of God, who persist in their heresy"

7.   Canon 9 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "On the matter of not allowing those who are of the Church to go to the cemeteries or to the so-called places of martyrdom of all who are heretics, on the pretext of a blessing or a cure; if they are of the faithful, let them be excommunicated for a certain time, and, after repenting and confessing that they erred, be re-admitted.”

8.   Canon 32 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "That it is not permitted to accept the blessings of heretics, which are foolishness rather than blessings”

9.   Canon 33 of the Local Synod of Laodicea: "That one must not pray together with heretics or schismatics”

10.  Canon 34 of the Local Synod of Laodicea:. “That it is not proper for any Christian to abandon the witnesses of Christ and go to the false witnesses, that is to say the heretics, or to those who are predisposed to becoming heretics.  For they are alien to God. Let them therefore be anathema, who would depart for their sake.”

11.  Canon 37 of the Local Synod of Laodicea:. "One must not accept the festive tokens sent by Jews or heretics, nor celebrate together with them."

12.   Canon 9 of Timothy of Alexandria: "Question. May a Clergyman offer prayers in the presence of Arians or other heretics?  Or does this not harm him in any way, whenever he performs the benediction, that is, the offering?;  Reply. During the divine anaphora, the Deacon recites this address prior to the greeting: "Those not in communion, walk away”. Therefore, they do not need to be present, unless they have reported their intention to repent and abandon the heresy" 

To the above Canons, one must also add the following: 

13.   Canon B’ of the Antioch Synod: "All those entering the Church and listening to the divine Scriptures, but not participating in the prayer together with the people, or displaying aversion to the Holy Communion of the Eucharist as an act of disorderliness, let them be cast out of the Church, until they have confessed and have shown works of repentance and are able to beseech forgiveness, thereafter not intending to be in communion with the excommunicated, nor congregate in houses with those who do not pray together in Church, nor with those who do not congregate.  Should any of the bishops, or presbyters, or deacons, or someone of the Canon be seen in communion with the excommunicated, let them also be excommunicated, as ones who have confused the Canon of the Church.”

14.  Canon A’ of the 4th Ecumenical Synod, (which validates the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria)

15.  Canon B’ of the 6th Ecumenical Synod, (which validates the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria).

16.  Canon A’ of the 7th Ecumenical Synod , (which validates the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Local Synods of Laodicea and Antioch, and of Saint Timothy of Alexandria). 
So, according to you, and according to what you have posted,  all the Orthodox members of this board who have said a prayer with a Catholic are excommunicated from the Holy Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #438 on: October 26, 2011, 09:16:38 PM »

No, because the canons are not self-enforcing and self-acting. They are guidelines or instructions for bishops. It takes a bishop to implement the corrective action.
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« Reply #439 on: October 26, 2011, 09:27:07 PM »

No, because the canons are not self-enforcing and self-acting. They are guidelines or instructions for bishops. It takes a bishop to implement the corrective action.

I would think that the almost predictable lack of action on the aforementioned canons would tell you something about the reception of those canons.
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« Reply #440 on: October 26, 2011, 09:40:01 PM »

It's not like these canons, which show so clear a picture of the teaching on this point of the Undivided Church of the first millennium, are a dead letter these days. They are not a dead letter but indeed are enforced in our day and age, though the penalty may be abridged.

Still, it's clear what the difference is between right and wrong, from the point of view of universal Christian morality.

Whether it's popular in our days, is another question. But it really doesn't matter, as to rightness or wrongness, whether Christian teaching about keeping oneself from praying with those of another faith, or about premarital sex, or about abortion, or about failure to attend divine services, is being observed widely or by just a few.

Right is right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it.
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« Reply #441 on: October 27, 2011, 09:44:10 AM »

It's not like these canons, which show so clear a picture of the teaching on this point of the Undivided Church of the first millennium, are a dead letter these days. They are not a dead letter but indeed are enforced in our day and age, though the penalty may be abridged.

Still, it's clear what the difference is between right and wrong, from the point of view of universal Christian morality.

Whether it's popular in our days, is another question. But it really doesn't matter, as to rightness or wrongness, whether Christian teaching about keeping oneself from praying with those of another faith, or about premarital sex, or about abortion, or about failure to attend divine services, is being observed widely or by just a few.

Right is right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it.

Do you consider all of the unused canons to still be of moral force?
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« Reply #442 on: October 27, 2011, 09:47:51 AM »

It's not like these canons, which show so clear a picture of the teaching on this point of the Undivided Church of the first millennium, are a dead letter these days. They are not a dead letter but indeed are enforced in our day and age, though the penalty may be abridged.


Or it could simply be a matter of lack of reception by the universal Church.
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« Reply #443 on: November 02, 2011, 01:09:16 PM »

The Church is universal.
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« Reply #444 on: November 02, 2011, 01:31:21 PM »

It's not like these canons, which show so clear a picture of the teaching on this point of the Undivided Church of the first millennium, are a dead letter these days. They are not a dead letter but indeed are enforced in our day and age, though the penalty may be abridged.


Or it could simply be a matter of lack of reception by the universal Church.
they would have to lack such reception.  Renigging and inconstancy on the part of Rome or the Vatican doesn't count.
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« Reply #445 on: November 02, 2011, 01:55:03 PM »

The Church is universal.

In the sense that it is greater than the sum of its parts however each part is not bound to experience and teach the faith in identical ways...If that were the case you'd all be in trouble.
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« Reply #446 on: November 02, 2011, 01:57:09 PM »

The Church is universal.

In the sense that it is greater than the sum of its parts however each part is not bound to experience and teach the faith in identical ways...If that were the case you'd all be in trouble.
so you keep claiming.

The same Faith must be taught.  Whether in identical or dissimilar ways is irrelevant.
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« Reply #447 on: November 02, 2011, 02:07:45 PM »

The Church is universal.

In the sense that it is greater than the sum of its parts however each part is not bound to experience and teach the faith in identical ways...If that were the case you'd all be in trouble.
so you keep claiming.

The same Faith must be taught.  Whether in identical or dissimilar ways is irrelevant.

Like toll houses, metaphorical hell, and the latinclasm.  Grin
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« Reply #448 on: November 02, 2011, 02:17:33 PM »

The Church is universal.

In the sense that it is greater than the sum of its parts however each part is not bound to experience and teach the faith in identical ways...If that were the case you'd all be in trouble.
so you keep claiming.

The same Faith must be taught.  Whether in identical or dissimilar ways is irrelevant.

Like toll houses, metaphorical hell, and the latinclasm.  Grin

It is a puzzlement.  Orthodox believers will demand for themselves a leeway to be diverse that they absolutely and most rudely refuse to offer to the Church of my Baptism.
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« Reply #449 on: November 02, 2011, 02:18:49 PM »

The Church is universal.

In the sense that it is greater than the sum of its parts however each part is not bound to experience and teach the faith in identical ways...If that were the case you'd all be in trouble.
so you keep claiming.

The same Faith must be taught.  Whether in identical or dissimilar ways is irrelevant.

Like toll houses, metaphorical hell, and the latinclasm.  Grin

It is a puzzlement.  Orthodox believers will demand for themselves a leeway to be diverse that they absolutely and most rudely refuse to offer to the Church of my Baptism.
because diverse=/=contradictory.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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