Author Topic: The Sacred Heart as I know it.  (Read 26532 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2011, 10:14:23 AM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2011, 11:38:46 AM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2011, 11:38:47 AM »
Love for the Lord is beautiful, but the creepy devotion to the Sacred Heart was invented by a poor raving mentally ill woman who was a heretic.

This devotion has never been encouraged by even a single Saint.

This devotion is highly controversial and no Orthodox should be caught dead engaging in this devotion.

There's just no need for it. It serves no purpose that is not already served by authentic and orthodox prayers and devotions. Thus, it adds nothing to our Christian walk and introduces much harm to that walk.

The devotion, at least amongst those who hold the true faith of Christ, should be allowed to die a peaceful death.

With Love in the Lord Who first loved us,

Hieromonk Aidan+
sinner
Thank you for such a resonable assessment.  ::)
Yes, reasoned from indisputable facts.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2011, 11:38:49 AM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.
LOL. Not forced at all. Straight from the gut, which is quite apropos.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2011, 11:38:49 AM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.
I am not anti-latin in any sense. I just find no use for it and the thought of it I find not only odd, but pretty useless and yes, I look at it and I am creeped out completely.

That is for ME. I would not pontificate to anyone else about it. If you like, thats cool. I for one, don't.

PP
Unfortunately, as Papist demonstrates for them, they aren't cool that you don't find any use for it and are creepted out.  You have to embrace it too.

Sort of like Eucharist adoration.  Not my cup of tea, although I've participated in a way, but unless you aren't into "doing a holy hour" something is said to be wrong with you.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2011, 11:38:50 AM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


Doesn't creep me out, but I am against it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2011, 12:02:49 PM »
The proper icon for the feast of the Beheading of St John the Baptist is the one showing him kneeling before the executioner, not the disembodied, decapitated head on a platter. The latter depiction seems to have appeared in Russia no more than three hundred years ago.
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Offline Cephas

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2011, 12:19:09 PM »
The proper icon for the feast of the Beheading of St John the Baptist is the one showing him kneeling before the executioner, not the disembodied, decapitated head on a platter. The latter depiction seems to have appeared in Russia no more than three hundred years ago.

What are your thoughts on this icon which depicts St. John the Baptist standing before his own decapitated head?

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

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Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2011, 12:23:46 PM »
This icon is quite acceptable. The focus of the icon is the person of the Baptist. His disembodied head is an accessory, a detail, but not the main subject. And he is standing in supplication before Christ his God, not his decapitated head.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:25:16 PM by LBK »
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Offline Cephas

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2011, 12:40:26 PM »
I see. Thank you for your insight.
Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2011, 12:49:35 PM »
I see. Thank you for your insight.

Happy to help.  :)
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2011, 01:40:35 PM »
I see. Thank you for your insight.

Happy to help.  :)

Of course the same soothing explanation could not POSSIBLY be used for the Sacred Heart.

Offline Papist

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2011, 01:41:52 PM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.
I am not anti-latin in any sense. I just find no use for it and the thought of it I find not only odd, but pretty useless and yes, I look at it and I am creeped out completely.

That is for ME. I would not pontificate to anyone else about it. If you like, thats cool. I for one, don't.

PP
Unfortunately, as Papist demonstrates for them, they aren't cool that you don't find any use for it and are creepted out.  You have to embrace it too.

Sort of like Eucharist adoration.  Not my cup of tea, although I've participated in a way, but unless you aren't into "doing a holy hour" something is said to be wrong with you.
Well, if you don't want to sit with our Lord who present body, blood, soul, and divinity, then yes, there is something not quite right with your relationship with Jesus.
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Offline Papist

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2011, 01:41:53 PM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.
LOL. Not forced at all. Straight from the gut, which is quite apropos.
If that is what is coming from your gut, you might want to try some fiber.
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Offline Papist

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2011, 01:41:53 PM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Seriously? This is your objection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Devotion? You know what, it's nonsense like this that, day by day, further confirms that the Catholic the Catholic Church (what Izzy likes to call "The Vatican", in a scottish Mike Meyers accent) is where Christ want's everyone.
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Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2011, 01:44:48 PM »
I see. Thank you for your insight.

Happy to help.  :)

Of course the same soothing explanation could not POSSIBLY be used for the Sacred Heart.

In the icon of St John, his head is in the corner of the icon, illustrating the manner of his martyrdom, and the saint's focus is on Christ. In paintings or statues of the Sacred Heart where Christ is shown bodily, He is pointing to His heart, making it the subject of the painting or statue. Quite a difference.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2011, 01:49:18 PM »
I see. Thank you for your insight.

Happy to help.  :)

Of course the same soothing explanation could not POSSIBLY be used for the Sacred Heart.

In the icon of St John, his head is in the corner of the icon, illustrating the manner of his martyrdom, and the saint's focus is on Christ. In paintings or statues of the Sacred Heart where Christ is shown bodily, He is pointing to His heart, making it the subject of the painting or statue. Quite a difference.

That symbolism harkens directly back to the ancient idea that the heart is the incarnational center of the person where the creature meets the creator, where the human meets the divine.

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2011, 01:59:03 PM »
Quote
That symbolism harkens directly back to the ancient idea that the heart is the incarnational center of the person where the creature meets the creator, where the human meets the divine.

Iconography is concerned with proclaiming the incarnate, fully-revealed Christ, not abstract symbols such as His figurative heart. Canon 82 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council puts paid to that. There is also no Orthodox liturgical feast or service dedicated to such abstractions.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2011, 04:08:04 PM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Seriously? This is your objection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Devotion?
That it in its entirety runs counter to all the warnings the Fathers issue against visions and other gospels preached by angels of light and the passions, you bet.
You know what, it's nonsense like this that,
there you go again, winnowing the wheat to eat the chaff. Nonsense indeed.
day by day, further confirms that the Catholic
was that a mantra to make it true?
the Catholic Church  is where Christ want's everyone.
of course it is.  But you won't get there going down the broad road and wide gates of the Vatican.
(what Izzy

who?
likes to call "The Vatican", in a scottish Mike Meyers accent)
it is what it is, whether Mike Meyers (don't quite get the reference), Christ (qui conversus dixit Petro vade post me Satana scandalum es mihi quia non sapis ea quae Dei sunt sed ea quae hominum.  (Mat. 16:23)) or satan himself says it. 
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2011, 06:40:53 PM »
Quote
That symbolism harkens directly back to the ancient idea that the heart is the incarnational center of the person where the creature meets the creator, where the human meets the divine.

Iconography is concerned with proclaiming the incarnate, fully-revealed Christ, not abstract symbols such as His figurative heart. Canon 82 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council puts paid to that. There is also no Orthodox liturgical feast or service dedicated to such abstractions.

You'll have to discuss that with the holy fathers of the desert, with their theology of the heart.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2011, 12:09:05 AM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Seriously? This is your objection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Devotion? You know what, it's nonsense like this that, day by day, further confirms that the Catholic the Catholic Church (what Izzy likes to call "The Vatican", in a scottish Mike Meyers accent) is where Christ want's everyone.
I certainly believed that our Church was the true Church even back in 2007 when I was received into full communion at the Easter Vigil, but the petty and pathetic ways that Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox take jabs at us just reaffirms this belief. Satan's fiery darts is what it is.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 12:09:22 AM by Wyatt »

Offline Shiny

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2011, 12:35:00 AM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Seriously? This is your objection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Devotion? You know what, it's nonsense like this that, day by day, further confirms that the Catholic the Catholic Church (what Izzy likes to call "The Vatican", in a scottish Mike Meyers accent) is where Christ want's everyone.
I certainly believed that our Church was the true Church even back in 2007 when I was received into full communion at the Easter Vigil, but the petty and pathetic ways that Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox take jabs at us just reaffirms this belief. Satan's fiery darts is what it is.
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2011, 01:58:04 AM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Seriously? This is your objection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Devotion? You know what, it's nonsense like this that, day by day, further confirms that the Catholic the Catholic Church (what Izzy likes to call "The Vatican", in a scottish Mike Meyers accent) is where Christ want's everyone.
I certainly believed that our Church was the true Church even back in 2007 when I was received into full communion at the Easter Vigil, but the petty and pathetic ways that Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox take jabs at us just reaffirms this belief. Satan's fiery darts is what it is.
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

Offline Papist

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2011, 12:19:16 PM »
Quote
There are Orthodox icons that give me the creeps.


Any examples, EM?

My guess is something like this?


No.  Not the head of John.  That is one of the personally favored feasts in the liturgical cycle, and I know that I am not venerating a disembodied head but the man who loved Jesus, and who announced him to the world at great personal cost.  I suppose I could be talked into venerating the sacred heart of John the Baptist as well   :)

M.
No doubt.  Btw, there are several places where you can venerate his disembodied head.  Not exactly the same, as you have an actual head (leaving aside which, if any, has his).  Christ had no open heart surgery.
Seriously? This is your objection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Devotion? You know what, it's nonsense like this that, day by day, further confirms that the Catholic the Catholic Church (what Izzy likes to call "The Vatican", in a scottish Mike Meyers accent) is where Christ want's everyone.
I certainly believed that our Church was the true Church even back in 2007 when I was received into full communion at the Easter Vigil, but the petty and pathetic ways that Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox take jabs at us just reaffirms this belief. Satan's fiery darts is what it is.
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
What on earth are you talking about?
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2011, 12:24:41 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
Many energies, three persons, two natures, one God, one Church, one Baptism.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2011, 04:00:06 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2011, 04:27:38 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2011, 04:28:56 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2011, 04:35:22 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2011, 04:43:06 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.

Pounding your chest...

sounds better!!

Offline J Michael

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2011, 04:58:21 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.

Pounding your chest...

sounds better!!

Oh, the joys of one-upmanship!!!  "We're better at it (the one-upmanship, that is) than you."  "Oh, no you're not--we're better at it than *you*.  And in addition, our religion is the ONLY TRUE one."  "Oh, no it's not, OUR'S is!!  HA!  So, there!"  Pound, pound, thump, thump, gloat, gloat, rub-a-dub-dub!  Pass the Alka-Seltzer, please!  ;D ;D

That's what I tell others who ask what "discussion" on this forum is like, after the initial 3 or 4 posts, that is.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 05:01:39 PM by J Michael »
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Offline biro

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2011, 06:56:43 PM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.

That's because it is.

Quote from: Fr.Aidan
Love for the Lord is beautiful, but the creepy devotion to the Sacred Heart was invented by a poor raving mentally ill woman who was a heretic.

It's good that Christians can discuss things passionlessly and respectfully.  :-X

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2011, 07:29:20 PM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.

That's because it is.

Quote from: Fr.Aidan
Love for the Lord is beautiful, but the creepy devotion to the Sacred Heart was invented by a poor raving mentally ill woman who was a heretic.

It's good that Christians can discuss things passionlessly and respectfully.  :-X

Don't you know that if it is Orthodox, it is de facto, passionless... ;)

It would be good if we could genuinely stop thinking about one another as heretics.  That is God's own truth.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2011, 08:03:39 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.
Perv

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2011, 09:02:16 PM »
What does that represent?

The head of John the Baptist.

What's wrong with this? This is a historical occurrence. This happened. It's not like we pray to his head. We know that neither Jesus nor Mary opened their chest and revealed their hearts to us and told us to pray to them.


Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2011, 09:04:20 PM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.

Wow...really???  :o :facepalm:

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2011, 01:05:44 AM »
Quote
That symbolism harkens directly back to the ancient idea that the heart is the incarnational center of the person where the creature meets the creator, where the human meets the divine.

Iconography is concerned with proclaiming the incarnate, fully-revealed Christ, not abstract symbols such as His figurative heart. Canon 82 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council puts paid to that. There is also no Orthodox liturgical feast or service dedicated to such abstractions.

You'll have to discuss that with the holy fathers of the desert, with their theology of the heart.
I don't recall any of them wretching the heart out of the chest.  Nor any devotion to Christ's heart in the theology of the heart, which is not an abstraction, btw, but rather concrete.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2011, 01:05:45 AM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.

That's because it is.

Quote from: Fr.Aidan
Love for the Lord is beautiful, but the creepy devotion to the Sacred Heart was invented by a poor raving mentally ill woman who was a heretic.

It's good that Christians can discuss things passionlessly and respectfully.  :-X

Don't you know that if it is Orthodox, it is de facto, passionless... ;)

It would be good if we could genuinely stop thinking about one another as heretics.  That is God's own truth.
When you stay with God's own Truth and stop thinking in line with the Vatican's heretical thinking, we won't think of you as heretics.  Not until.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2011, 01:05:45 AM »
I can't even begin to relate to the people who find the devotion "creepy". It seems like forced anti-Latinism.

That's because it is.
martyr complex strikes again.  Because creepy it is.

Quote from: Fr.Aidan
Love for the Lord is beautiful, but the creepy devotion to the Sacred Heart was invented by a poor raving mentally ill woman who was a heretic.

It's good that Christians can discuss things passionlessly and respectfully.  :-X
how do you think we should discuss Hindu or Shinto phallic worship?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2011, 01:05:45 AM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.
Perv
that's not a denial. :o
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2011, 01:25:38 AM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.
Perv
that's not a denial. :o
Considering what you condone being done to the rear, you would do well not to worry about my front.

In reference to the following post:
The Moderators have decided that the bickering between ElijahMaria, Ialmisry and Wyatt is no longer fit for any public forum. Furthermore, Ialmisry, Elijahmria and Wyatt are strongly cautioned to confine their bickering to the private forum. Serious consequences will ensue if their bickering infects any of the public fora, causing derailment of the topic.

A general warning for all: Hijacking of threads for the pursuit of pet causes is much more serious than veering off topic and will be dealt with increasingly severe moderation, to include muting and banning. Second Chance

You are now on 60 days Post Moderation for flaming ialmisry outside of the Private Forum thread to which you were instructed to confine your bickering, an act particularly egregious considering that Isa is currently restricted from defending himself here. Let this bickering overflow again into the Public Forum and you will be muted. If you deem this action unfair, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 04:45:13 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2011, 02:56:44 AM »
So you are kinda going against Fr. Anastasios' wishes for this section of the board then.
Lol...yeah, he would love it if every single one of us became Eastern Orthodox, but that ain't happening, at least not for this Catholic.

I would love that too. The only healthy ecumenism that can exist is the one of repetence and humility. The Orthodox must repent of phyletism among us, and Romans must repent from Catapapism to return to Catholicism.
You making up words now?
Even if he is, that doesn't change the truth in what he said. We know what he meant.


PP
Good for you guys. Keep patting yourselves on the back.

And you keep rubbing yourself on the front.
Perv
that's not a denial. :o
Considering what you condone being done to the rear, you would do well not to worry about my front.

whoa guys, cmon now!  :o

Offline Seraphim Rose

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2011, 08:20:53 AM »
I s'pose this thread has died an awful death, but I have a question for the Catholics.

Christ speaks about his own body, his blood, and the Cross.

And St. Paul writes in 1 Cor. 12,

Quote
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many.
Quote
18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

But he's speaking about the Body of Christ, the Church.

Is there any Scriptural foundation for the devotion to the Sacred Heart? Or for the devotion to any part of the body of Jesus?

It would seem that the Son of God ought to be worshiped in His wholeness.
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Offline Seraphim Rose

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2011, 08:28:21 AM »
I ought to add something.

In the months before I began seeking to enter Holy Orthodoxy, as a Catholic, I developed a devotion to the Sacred Heart.

I no longer practice that devotion. But I would imagine that if the sentimentality and imagery could be removed from it, it would perhaps be useful.

What would be left of it? What would it be? That is an honest question.
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart as I know it.
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2011, 10:04:43 AM »
I ought to add something.

In the months before I began seeking to enter Holy Orthodoxy, as a Catholic, I developed a devotion to the Sacred Heart.

I no longer practice that devotion. But I would imagine that if the sentimentality and imagery could be removed from it, it would perhaps be useful.

What would be left of it? What would it be? That is an honest question.

It might look something like this:

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! Living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from Thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen.

O Most loving Lord Jesus, who dost invite me to give Thee my heart, and hast commanded me to love Thee with my whole soul; I most earnestly desire to do Thy will. For whom have I in heaven but Thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire in comparison of Thee. For Thee my heart and flesh faileth, Thou art the God of my strength and my portion for ever. Thou art the fount of all love; and Thy banner over me is love. Thou hast thought of me from all eternity; Thou hast created me, and redeemed me, and dost guard and keep me day by day. O most loving Lord, can it be that such wonderful love should not move me to such poor return as I can make Thee? Yes, Lord, I will love Thee, because Thou didst first love me. I will try to love Thee as Thou hast commanded, with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul, and with all my strength. I would that henceforth neither tribulation, nor distress, nor persecution, nor life, nor death, nor any created thing should separate me from Thee. Quench then by Thy Holy Spirit all love of the world and myself, enable me to bear Thy sweet yoke, that I may learn of Thee to be meek and lowly of heart. Make me to realize my own nothingness, that I may learn to esteem others better than myself. O meek and humble Heart of my Jesus! O Heart of love, teach me to love Thee now and through all eternity. Amen.

This was taken from the popular St. Ambrose Western Orthodox prayer book. The introduction to this devotion says, "The Western Orthodox use of this devotion is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, "My heart within me is troubled," but to Our Lord's compassionate love for us. The heart has long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God's love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 10:05:35 AM by Sleeper »