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Author Topic: The Sacred Heart as I know it.  (Read 23089 times) Average Rating: 0
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #135 on: October 04, 2011, 03:37:48 PM »


We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

Apparently, you aren't as "knowledgeable" as you seem to think you are.  We do not "worship" icons.  We venerate them, just as we venerate the saints.  

We worship only God, for He is our Creator, and He alone can forgive us and save us.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:38:15 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #136 on: October 04, 2011, 03:42:34 PM »


What you write in this "assessment" of yours is nonsense and does not comport with any of the formal teachings of the Church when they made the Sacred Heart the subject of a liturgical text.

When you finally deal with those texts: perhaps you we will have something to talk about.  Till then you may join the laity who write encyclopedia articles and speculate to your heart's content.

Pardon me for referring to your heart.  That reference does not indicate that I  worship or venerate a body part.

M.

Honestly, Maria, even when people try to approach you with a little more respect that's the best you can give?

So well. Here is what the infallible one teaches, affirms and proclaims:

1. That all may understand more exactly the teachings which the selected texts of the Old and New Testament furnish concerning this devotion, they must clearly understand the reasons why the Church gives the highest form of worship to the Heart of the divine Redeemer. As you well know, venerable brethren, the reasons are two in number. The first, which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honors the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself. We are dealing here with an article of faith, for it has been solemnly defined in the general Council of Ephesus and the second Council of Constantinople.(15)

So, obey your infallible teacher who is the substitute of Christ on Earth and *worship* and adore all the sacred members of the Body of Jesus, for the reason that applies for the heart apply for the other members as well. You may want to start with the Sacred Toenail or maybe the Holy Galbladder. And don't forget to make images out of them and blame all who find it grotesque of being insensitive and liars.
We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.
You must be speaking sarcastically, or else you would realize just how ridiculous the above paragraph sounds. If you are speaking sarcastically, does that mean you don't want us to take you seriously?
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« Reply #137 on: October 04, 2011, 03:43:42 PM »


We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

Apparently, you aren't as "knowledgeable" as you seem to think you are.  We do not "worship" icons.  We venerate them, just as we venerate the saints.  

We worship only God, for He is our Creator, and He alone can forgive us and save us.



He "knows" that, Liza.  Wyatt is just trying to be sarcastic and funny and, as usual, failing. 

Or perhaps he's succeeding, as it just feeds his martyr complex.
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« Reply #138 on: October 04, 2011, 03:55:49 PM »


We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

Apparently, you aren't as "knowledgeable" as you seem to think you are.  We do not "worship" icons.  We venerate them, just as we venerate the saints.  

We worship only God, for He is our Creator, and He alone can forgive us and save us.



He "knows" that, Liza.  Wyatt is just trying to be sarcastic and funny and, as usual, failing. 

Or perhaps he's succeeding, as it just feeds his martyr complex.
Sarcastic...yes. Funny...not at all.
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« Reply #139 on: October 04, 2011, 03:57:07 PM »


What you write in this "assessment" of yours is nonsense and does not comport with any of the formal teachings of the Church when they made the Sacred Heart the subject of a liturgical text.

When you finally deal with those texts: perhaps you we will have something to talk about.  Till then you may join the laity who write encyclopedia articles and speculate to your heart's content.

Pardon me for referring to your heart.  That reference does not indicate that I  worship or venerate a body part.

M.

Honestly, Maria, even when people try to approach you with a little more respect that's the best you can give?

So well. Here is what the infallible one teaches, affirms and proclaims:

1. That all may understand more exactly the teachings which the selected texts of the Old and New Testament furnish concerning this devotion, they must clearly understand the reasons why the Church gives the highest form of worship to the Heart of the divine Redeemer. As you well know, venerable brethren, the reasons are two in number. The first, which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honors the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself. We are dealing here with an article of faith, for it has been solemnly defined in the general Council of Ephesus and the second Council of Constantinople.(15)

So, obey your infallible teacher who is the substitute of Christ on Earth and *worship* and adore all the sacred members of the Body of Jesus, for the reason that applies for the heart apply for the other members as well. You may want to start with the Sacred Toenail or maybe the Holy Galbladder. And don't forget to make images out of them and blame all who find it grotesque of being insensitive and liars.
We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.
You must be speaking sarcastically, or else you would realize just how ridiculous the above paragraph sounds. If you are speaking sarcastically, does that mean you don't want us to take you seriously?
You're making it too difficult...it's really quite simple. Take my statements in their proper context. When they're serious take them seriously. When they're sarcastic take them sarcastically.
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« Reply #140 on: October 04, 2011, 04:01:51 PM »


We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

Apparently, you aren't as "knowledgeable" as you seem to think you are.  We do not "worship" icons.  We venerate them, just as we venerate the saints.  

We worship only God, for He is our Creator, and He alone can forgive us and save us.



He "knows" that, Liza.  Wyatt is just trying to be sarcastic and funny and, as usual, failing.  

Or perhaps he's succeeding, as it just feeds his martyr complex.

Well Wyatt, we have an encyclical of a Pope actually saying that worship is due to Christ's body parts as to Christ Himself because, well, they are parts of him and that would not make any difference. Besides that proclamation of a Pope we have shown the understanding of knowledgeable Romans who produced a much consulted encyclopedia and who faithfuly repeat that worship is due to the fleshly heart. So a Pope says it, knowledgeable Romans understand it that way and we are to believe you and Maria just because here these statements are questioned and you can't come with any better answer and that quoted authoritative texts of first sources should be put in second place for random internet websites that are more agreeable? Please.

Icons, on the other hand, were institutionalized with a very clear distinction between worship and veneration. The Sacred Heart "veneration" in official documents and explanations, on the other hand, is defined as due worship.

I'm sorry, but I started this topic with my general knowledge of Roman devotions from around my Roman environment and in closer inspection of Roman official documents I can't any longer consider it just a slightly misworded but worthy veneration. It is a dowright heresy, on par with the old worship of the Name of God, having the same reasonings and modus pensandi, just different objects.

A true *veneration* of the Love of God could still emerge in a Orthodox Catholic context, not reinterpreting the patristic concept of heart but just applying it theologically to God. It's iconography would not be any body part but the Theophany icons where God, who is love, expresses Himself in the divine Uncreated Light that is the radiance of His heart.

God is wholy love. The Father is love. The Son is Love. The Holy Spirit is love. The love of God for mankind's emanates equally from God as whole, his "heart" being his ever invisible essence. The visible manifestation of God is also the visible manifestation of God Himself: Jesus Christ in the fullness of His life, His body, His death and His resurrection. Worship of His heart, like worship of His name, is a demonic temptation that tries to blur and finally cause a spiritual shortsightness that will eventually blind us to love manifest in Jesus.

Honestly this realization scandalizes me more than filioque or papal supremacy. It is the kind of petty mistake that I would expect from fringe cult groups, not from a respectable institution as the Roman church. It is even a bit disappointing.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 04:04:46 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #141 on: October 04, 2011, 04:40:03 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
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« Reply #142 on: October 04, 2011, 05:29:29 PM »


We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

Apparently, you aren't as "knowledgeable" as you seem to think you are.  We do not "worship" icons.  We venerate them, just as we venerate the saints.  

We worship only God, for He is our Creator, and He alone can forgive us and save us.



He "knows" that, Liza.  Wyatt is just trying to be sarcastic and funny and, as usual, failing.  

Or perhaps he's succeeding, as it just feeds his martyr complex.

Well Wyatt, we have an encyclical of a Pope actually saying that worship is due to Christ's body parts as to Christ Himself because, well, they are parts of him and that would not make any difference. Besides that proclamation of a Pope we have shown the understanding of knowledgeable Romans who produced a much consulted encyclopedia and who faithfuly repeat that worship is due to the fleshly heart. So a Pope says it, knowledgeable Romans understand it that way and we are to believe you and Maria just because here these statements are questioned and you can't come with any better answer and that quoted authoritative texts of first sources should be put in second place for random internet websites that are more agreeable? Please.

Icons, on the other hand, were institutionalized with a very clear distinction between worship and veneration. The Sacred Heart "veneration" in official documents and explanations, on the other hand, is defined as due worship.

I'm sorry, but I started this topic with my general knowledge of Roman devotions from around my Roman environment and in closer inspection of Roman official documents I can't any longer consider it just a slightly misworded but worthy veneration. It is a dowright heresy, on par with the old worship of the Name of God, having the same reasonings and modus pensandi, just different objects.

A true *veneration* of the Love of God could still emerge in a Orthodox Catholic context, not reinterpreting the patristic concept of heart but just applying it theologically to God. It's iconography would not be any body part but the Theophany icons where God, who is love, expresses Himself in the divine Uncreated Light that is the radiance of His heart.

God is wholy love. The Father is love. The Son is Love. The Holy Spirit is love. The love of God for mankind's emanates equally from God as whole, his "heart" being his ever invisible essence. The visible manifestation of God is also the visible manifestation of God Himself: Jesus Christ in the fullness of His life, His body, His death and His resurrection. Worship of His heart, like worship of His name, is a demonic temptation that tries to blur and finally cause a spiritual shortsightness that will eventually blind us to love manifest in Jesus.

Honestly this realization scandalizes me more than filioque or papal supremacy. It is the kind of petty mistake that I would expect from fringe cult groups, not from a respectable institution as the Roman church. It is even a bit disappointing.
You never found the Roman Church respectable, so cut out the nonsense. We have all stated, time and again, that devotions are devotions are devotions. They are not dogma. They are not doctrine. The fact that a devotion is commemorated in the liturgical calendar of our Church does not require participation in that devotion. At most, we just get to hear it mentioned or talked about in the sermon at that particular Mass. Hopefully, the meaning behind the devotion is pointed out in the sermon and the Priest explains to us the significance of the devotion and how one can utilize it in such a way as to allow it to deepen and enrich their relationship with Jesus Christ. If that particular devotion is not beneficial to one's spiritual life they are under no obligation to practice it.

Oh wait...no. On second thought...none of the above makes any sense at all. Worshiping the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a supreme dogma of the Church and everyone must worship just His heart to the exclusion of everything else, because that's obviously what that Pope meant.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #143 on: October 04, 2011, 05:30:44 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP

Try reading **all** of this: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_15051956_haurietis-aquas_en.html  Can't promise, but it may help.  (Warning: it is rather long.)  
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« Reply #144 on: October 04, 2011, 05:37:46 PM »


What you write in this "assessment" of yours is nonsense and does not comport with any of the formal teachings of the Church when they made the Sacred Heart the subject of a liturgical text.

When you finally deal with those texts: perhaps you we will have something to talk about.  Till then you may join the laity who write encyclopedia articles and speculate to your heart's content.

Pardon me for referring to your heart.  That reference does not indicate that I  worship or venerate a body part.

M.

Honestly, Maria, even when people try to approach you with a little more respect that's the best you can give?

So well. Here is what the infallible one teaches, affirms and proclaims:

1. That all may understand more exactly the teachings which the selected texts of the Old and New Testament furnish concerning this devotion, they must clearly understand the reasons why the Church gives the highest form of worship to the Heart of the divine Redeemer. As you well know, venerable brethren, the reasons are two in number. The first, which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honors the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself. We are dealing here with an article of faith, for it has been solemnly defined in the general Council of Ephesus and the second Council of Constantinople.(15)

So, obey your infallible teacher who is the substitute of Christ on Earth and *worship* and adore all the sacred members of the Body of Jesus, for the reason that applies for the heart apply for the other members as well. You may want to start with the Sacred Toenail or maybe the Holy Galbladder. And don't forget to make images out of them and blame all who find it grotesque of being insensitive and liars.
We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

well you guys worship statues!!! nya nya nya.... Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 05:39:23 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #145 on: October 04, 2011, 07:25:44 PM »


When you finally deal with those texts: perhaps you we will have something to talk about.  Till then you may join the laity who write encyclopedia articles and speculate to your heart's content.


What's the point of the Nihil Obstat, then?  A lay person may have written an article, but a bishop said, "NOTHING IN HERE IS CONTRARY TO THE FAITH!" I'll take the word of that particular bishop over a lay person, namely, you.

As primsipulus pointed out, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

What IS the point of a Nihil Obstat then?  Is it some sort of Episcopal Good Teacher's Seal of Infallibility?

It is not.  It says that there is nothing there that will do damage to the faith. 

It does not say that EVERY JOT AND TITTLE HEREIN IS THE INFALLIBLE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH...

That ain't it.

So you can't have it the way that you think...or would like to have it...or whatevah...

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« Reply #146 on: October 04, 2011, 07:26:37 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP

Try reading **all** of this: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_15051956_haurietis-aquas_en.html  Can't promise, but it may help.  (Warning: it is rather long.)  

I think I've posted this four times, and no takers...doh!!   angel
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« Reply #147 on: October 04, 2011, 08:04:02 PM »

I think I've posted this four times, and no takers...doh!!   angel

Well, at over 15,500 words (without footnotes) it is fairly long, as J Michael warned  police angel
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« Reply #148 on: October 04, 2011, 08:23:24 PM »


We'll stop worshiping the epicenter of Christ's cardiovascular system when you all stop worshiping Icons, and don't you dare say that I'm lying about your worship of Icons because it is completely obvious that you're Icon worshipers. As an outsider, I am just as informed and knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy as someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox.

Apparently, you aren't as "knowledgeable" as you seem to think you are.  We do not "worship" icons.  We venerate them, just as we venerate the saints.  

We worship only God, for He is our Creator, and He alone can forgive us and save us.



He "knows" that, Liza.  Wyatt is just trying to be sarcastic and funny and, as usual, failing.  

Or perhaps he's succeeding, as it just feeds his martyr complex.

Well Wyatt, we have an encyclical of a Pope actually saying that worship is due to Christ's body parts as to Christ Himself because, well, they are parts of him and that would not make any difference. Besides that proclamation of a Pope we have shown the understanding of knowledgeable Romans who produced a much consulted encyclopedia and who faithfuly repeat that worship is due to the fleshly heart. So a Pope says it, knowledgeable Romans understand it that way and we are to believe you and Maria just because here these statements are questioned and you can't come with any better answer and that quoted authoritative texts of first sources should be put in second place for random internet websites that are more agreeable? Please.

Icons, on the other hand, were institutionalized with a very clear distinction between worship and veneration. The Sacred Heart "veneration" in official documents and explanations, on the other hand, is defined as due worship.

I'm sorry, but I started this topic with my general knowledge of Roman devotions from around my Roman environment and in closer inspection of Roman official documents I can't any longer consider it just a slightly misworded but worthy veneration. It is a dowright heresy, on par with the old worship of the Name of God, having the same reasonings and modus pensandi, just different objects.

A true *veneration* of the Love of God could still emerge in a Orthodox Catholic context, not reinterpreting the patristic concept of heart but just applying it theologically to God. It's iconography would not be any body part but the Theophany icons where God, who is love, expresses Himself in the divine Uncreated Light that is the radiance of His heart.

God is wholy love. The Father is love. The Son is Love. The Holy Spirit is love. The love of God for mankind's emanates equally from God as whole, his "heart" being his ever invisible essence. The visible manifestation of God is also the visible manifestation of God Himself: Jesus Christ in the fullness of His life, His body, His death and His resurrection. Worship of His heart, like worship of His name, is a demonic temptation that tries to blur and finally cause a spiritual shortsightness that will eventually blind us to love manifest in Jesus.

Honestly this realization scandalizes me more than filioque or papal supremacy. It is the kind of petty mistake that I would expect from fringe cult groups, not from a respectable institution as the Roman church. It is even a bit disappointing.
It is difficult to understand in a sense, but I don't think that Catholics have to follow or agree with everything a Pope says, even if it is in an encyclical. For example, there was a letter  of Pope Innocent IV that approved  the use of torture to extract confessions. There was another proclamation of a Pope from the Council of Florence that said that all Jews and schismatics would go to hell.
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« Reply #149 on: October 04, 2011, 08:32:32 PM »

I think I've posted this four times, and no takers...doh!!   angel

Well, at over 15,500 words (without footnotes) it is fairly long, as J Michael warned  police angel

Picky-picky!!!... Cheesy
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« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2011, 08:33:09 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?
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« Reply #151 on: October 04, 2011, 10:35:04 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?

Simply put, the celebration isn't for St. Valentine's heart. Whether people corelate the heart with love is vastly different than having devotions to a physical body member of Christ.

PP
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« Reply #152 on: October 04, 2011, 10:46:33 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?

Simply put, the celebration isn't for St. Valentine's heart. Whether people corelate the heart with love is vastly different than having devotions to a physical body member of Christ.

PP
When someone speaks about correlating the heart with love, then he is on the road to understanding the Sacred Heart devotion which is all about the love of Christ for mankind.
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« Reply #153 on: October 04, 2011, 10:52:57 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?

Simply put, the celebration isn't for St. Valentine's heart. Whether people corelate the heart with love is vastly different than having devotions to a physical body member of Christ.

PP
When someone speaks about correlating the heart with love, then he is on the road to understanding the Sacred Heart devotion which is all about the love of Christ for mankind.
Sorry, I dont see the similarity. It is figurative, the corelation between heart and love. The devotion is for the physical heart. It is not the same thing. Nowhere close. When I give someone a chocolate heart, it is not the yummy representation of an actual heart. This is like comparing apples to apple scented wallpaper.

PP
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« Reply #154 on: October 04, 2011, 10:53:18 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?
The point you are driving home in this post is far too logical for this forum.
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« Reply #155 on: October 04, 2011, 11:42:34 PM »

You never found the Roman Church respectable, so cut out the nonsense.

Behave. You don't know anything about me. I have been under much more serious social problems for defending the Roman Church than you can imagine. From losing friendships to being labeled negatively in professional situations where I could have taken advantage of just repeating what the chorus sing. I - occasionally - collaborate with a media-watch newspaper with Catholic explicit catholic leanings and now and then I have to put up with the same prejudices they do. I have defended the role of the Roman church in the West and in Brazilian culture in face of secularists and atheists many times. Some of my best friends and my family are Romans, and the Roman Elderly Ladies Prayer Group used to go to my house frequently and we had wonderful conversations. So wash your mouth - or fingers - before trying to guess what I feel for anything.

What I don't respect Wyatt, is you and Elijamariah, only. Don't hide behind the Roman church. For all your histerical pseudo-apologetic you two pass as just mediocre trolls in a forum that has no rules for banning trolls and that is the only reason you thrive. I have debated these issues in person with Roman friends who are far more knowledgeable than you  and never, *never* any of then showed the kind of idiotic insecurity you two show here.  So you won't have the excuse of no-reference. I have plenty of references in my personal life of intelligent *pious* Romans who know how to discuss differences without ridiculously resorting to offenses or acusations.
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« Reply #156 on: October 05, 2011, 12:01:57 AM »

It is difficult to understand in a sense, but I don't think that Catholics have to follow or agree with everything a Pope says, even if it is in an encyclical. For example, there was a letter  of Pope Innocent IV that approved  the use of torture to extract confessions. There was another proclamation of a Pope from the Council of Florence that said that all Jews and schismatics would go to hell.

I know and I can understand that. What I find odd is this systematic arguments Romans have developed since the filioque to go round explicitly stated doctrine. "You know, we don't have to take that reaaally that literally" or "Yeah, it says that, but that's not what we mean".

I see a very disturbing chasm between what Roman Catholics believe and what the hierarchy of Rome states officially.

In a certain perspective, some Roman Catholics still believe and live Orthodoxily. They respect the Roman bishop as their hierarch but don't really believe in supremacy or infallibility, they don't get the point of having or not having the filioque and they have this generic understanding of the devotion being just a devotion to a symbol of the love of God - despite what the Roman hierarchy and theologians say.

If the devotion were just a symbol - that was my first understanding - of the love of God, I would stand by what I said in the first posts: it would need minor tinkerings to become fully Orthodox. But after one reads what the hierarchy and theologians officially teach, I think it is wishful thinking to explain their statements away as just oddly worded but meaning, really, "it's just a devotion to the love of God through the symbol of His Heart". It is what many Catholics do, it is what the hierarchy allows to happen, but it is not what they teach and believe. It's like schools which still teach the orbit model for electrons. They know it's not like that, but the model serves introducing kids to chemistry. Roman officials let Romans treat as just a devotion although they "know" the issue is more complex, that is, that it is really due worship to a part because it is the part of a whole that is due to worship. This is what becomes very clear when you contrast official sources and witnesses like yours from common faithful.
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« Reply #157 on: October 05, 2011, 07:06:53 AM »

It is difficult to understand in a sense, but I don't think that Catholics have to follow or agree with everything a Pope says, even if it is in an encyclical. For example, there was a letter  of Pope Innocent IV that approved  the use of torture to extract confessions. There was another proclamation of a Pope from the Council of Florence that said that all Jews and schismatics would go to hell.

I know and I can understand that. What I find odd is this systematic arguments Romans have developed since the filioque to go round explicitly stated doctrine. "You know, we don't have to take that reaaally that literally" or "Yeah, it says that, but that's not what we mean".

I see a very disturbing chasm between what Roman Catholics believe and what the hierarchy of Rome states officially.

In a certain perspective, some Roman Catholics still believe and live Orthodoxily. They respect the Roman bishop as their hierarch but don't really believe in supremacy or infallibility, they don't get the point of having or not having the filioque and they have this generic understanding of the devotion being just a devotion to a symbol of the love of God - despite what the Roman hierarchy and theologians say.


If the devotion were just a symbol - that was my first understanding - of the love of God, I would stand by what I said in the first posts: it would need minor tinkerings to become fully Orthodox. But after one reads what the hierarchy and theologians officially teach, I think it is wishful thinking to explain their statements away as just oddly worded but meaning, really, "it's just a devotion to the love of God through the symbol of His Heart". It is what many Catholics do, it is what the hierarchy allows to happen, but it is not what they teach and believe. It's like schools which still teach the orbit model for electrons. They know it's not like that, but the model serves introducing kids to chemistry. Roman officials let Romans treat as just a devotion although they "know" the issue is more complex, that is, that it is really due worship to a part because it is the part of a whole that is due to worship. This is what becomes very clear when you contrast official sources and witnesses like yours from common faithful.

What I have hi-lighted I would say is very true !

Did you used to be a RC at one time? Just wondering.
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« Reply #158 on: October 05, 2011, 09:46:55 AM »


When you finally deal with those texts: perhaps you we will have something to talk about.  Till then you may join the laity who write encyclopedia articles and speculate to your heart's content.


What's the point of the Nihil Obstat, then?  A lay person may have written an article, but a bishop said, "NOTHING IN HERE IS CONTRARY TO THE FAITH!" I'll take the word of that particular bishop over a lay person, namely, you.

As primsipulus pointed out, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

What IS the point of a Nihil Obstat then?  Is it some sort of Episcopal Good Teacher's Seal of Infallibility?

It is not.  It says that there is nothing there that will do damage to the faith.  

It does not say that EVERY JOT AND TITTLE HEREIN IS THE INFALLIBLE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH...

That ain't it.

So you can't have it the way that you think...or would like to have it...or whatevah...



But if something acquires a "nihil obstat," it is therefore a valid opinion and one you, as a lay person (to use your words), cannot simply discount because you don't like what it has to say.  You can't say, "The Church doesn't teach that at all!" when someone uses a source that the very church you're claiming to speak for says isn't contrary (or even damaging) to its teaching.

You do this all the time around here and it is incredibly frustrating.  

And please don't bother with trying to point to some Orthodox poster who practically does the same.  That's not the point.

The adage goes, "Be the change you want to see" , not, "Be the other jackass in the room."
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« Reply #159 on: October 05, 2011, 10:18:30 AM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?

Simply put, the celebration isn't for St. Valentine's heart. Whether people corelate the heart with love is vastly different than having devotions to a physical body member of Christ.

PP
When someone speaks about correlating the heart with love, then he is on the road to understanding the Sacred Heart devotion which is all about the love of Christ for mankind.
Sorry, I dont see the similarity. It is figurative, the corelation between heart and love. The devotion is for the physical heart. It is not the same thing. Nowhere close. When I give someone a chocolate heart, it is not the yummy representation of an actual heart. This is like comparing apples to apple scented wallpaper.

PP

Again, I would suggest you read the entire encyclical.  So, it's long.  So what?  Read it in sections.  Pretend you're reading some of the posts here that include voluminous copy/pastes from other sources and pretty maps  Grin.  If you choose not to read the encyclical, one could hardly blame you.  But if you do so choose, then don't tell us you don't get it.  If you don't *want* to get it, well, that's okay, too, because you certainly do not have to.  But don't criticize or debunk what you choose to not understand  Wink.  Now, if you *do* read it and still don't understand, then that's the time to ask questions and seek clarification--if you really do want to understand.

And remember, too, that an encyclical is mainly just a letter sent from one **fallible** bishop to other fallible bishops, which does not carry the weight of an ex-cathedra infallible statement.





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« Reply #160 on: October 05, 2011, 11:46:11 AM »

You never found the Roman Church respectable, so cut out the nonsense.

Behave. You don't know anything about me. I have been under much more serious social problems for defending the Roman Church than you can imagine. From losing friendships to being labeled negatively in professional situations where I could have taken advantage of just repeating what the chorus sing. I - occasionally - collaborate with a media-watch newspaper with Catholic explicit catholic leanings and now and then I have to put up with the same prejudices they do. I have defended the role of the Roman church in the West and in Brazilian culture in face of secularists and atheists many times. Some of my best friends and my family are Romans, and the Roman Elderly Ladies Prayer Group used to go to my house frequently and we had wonderful conversations. So wash your mouth - or fingers - before trying to guess what I feel for anything.

What I don't respect Wyatt, is you and Elijamariah, only. Don't hide behind the Roman church. For all your histerical pseudo-apologetic you two pass as just mediocre trolls in a forum that has no rules for banning trolls and that is the only reason you thrive. I have debated these issues in person with Roman friends who are far more knowledgeable than you  and never, *never* any of then showed the kind of idiotic insecurity you two show here.  So you won't have the excuse of no-reference. I have plenty of references in my personal life of intelligent *pious* Romans who know how to discuss differences without ridiculously resorting to offenses or acusations.

I guess you think that your anecdotal rants are valid and mine are not. 

I think my good teachers are every bit as good as your good Catholic co-whatevers...

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Now who is whining?
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« Reply #161 on: October 05, 2011, 11:50:09 AM »


When you finally deal with those texts: perhaps you we will have something to talk about.  Till then you may join the laity who write encyclopedia articles and speculate to your heart's content.


What's the point of the Nihil Obstat, then?  A lay person may have written an article, but a bishop said, "NOTHING IN HERE IS CONTRARY TO THE FAITH!" I'll take the word of that particular bishop over a lay person, namely, you.

As primsipulus pointed out, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

What IS the point of a Nihil Obstat then?  Is it some sort of Episcopal Good Teacher's Seal of Infallibility?

It is not.  It says that there is nothing there that will do damage to the faith.  

It does not say that EVERY JOT AND TITTLE HEREIN IS THE INFALLIBLE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH...

That ain't it.

So you can't have it the way that you think...or would like to have it...or whatevah...



But if something acquires a "nihil obstat," it is therefore a valid opinion and one you, as a lay person (to use your words), cannot simply discount because you don't like what it has to say.  You can't say, "The Church doesn't teach that at all!" when someone uses a source that the very church you're claiming to speak for says isn't contrary (or even damaging) to its teaching.

You do this all the time around here and it is incredibly frustrating.  

And please don't bother with trying to point to some Orthodox poster who practically does the same.  That's not the point.

The adage goes, "Be the change you want to see" , not, "Be the other jackass in the room."

When you can provide documentation from the CDF or the CCC or some systematics textbook used in a conservative seminary, that tells me as a laywoman that I need to accept every word in a lay publication simply because two bishops say that it is not, IN GENERAL, harmful to the faith...THEN you can rightly call me a jackass and I will pick up my saddle and leave.

Till then, I will understand these things the way I have been taught to understand them.

M.
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« Reply #162 on: October 05, 2011, 11:52:29 AM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?

Simply put, the celebration isn't for St. Valentine's heart. Whether people corelate the heart with love is vastly different than having devotions to a physical body member of Christ.

PP
When someone speaks about correlating the heart with love, then he is on the road to understanding the Sacred Heart devotion which is all about the love of Christ for mankind.
Sorry, I dont see the similarity. It is figurative, the corelation between heart and love. The devotion is for the physical heart. It is not the same thing. Nowhere close. When I give someone a chocolate heart, it is not the yummy representation of an actual heart. This is like comparing apples to apple scented wallpaper.

PP

Again, I would suggest you read the entire encyclical.  So, it's long.  So what?  Read it in sections.  Pretend you're reading some of the posts here that include voluminous copy/pastes from other sources and pretty maps  Grin.  If you choose not to read the encyclical, one could hardly blame you.  But if you do so choose, then don't tell us you don't get it.  If you don't *want* to get it, well, that's okay, too, because you certainly do not have to.  But don't criticize or debunk what you choose to not understand  Wink.  Now, if you *do* read it and still don't understand, then that's the time to ask questions and seek clarification--if you really do want to understand.

And remember, too, that an encyclical is mainly just a letter sent from one **fallible** bishop to other fallible bishops, which does not carry the weight of an ex-cathedra infallible statement.







However it does carry greater teaching weight than a lay publication with the stamp of approval from two bishops.
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« Reply #163 on: October 05, 2011, 12:11:51 PM »

I knew you were kidding Wyatt, but really why just the heart? Why not his tongue for what was said, or the hands for the healing they brough, etc.?

Still dont get it.

PP
Many people send cards on St. Valentine's Day to someone special in their lives. And many times, there is a heart on the card. And there are even heart shaped chocolates which are given and shared. Generally, I have not heard of too many St. Valentine's Day cards which picture a tongue.
Also, I have seen T-Shirts and bumper stickers with phrases such as: I ("heart") NY. What does that mean? Generally, it means that a person has a great affection for the city of NY. He likes the city of NY. I have not seen any T-Shirts with I ("tongue") NY? Have you?
Why do you suppose that it is that way?

Simply put, the celebration isn't for St. Valentine's heart. Whether people corelate the heart with love is vastly different than having devotions to a physical body member of Christ.

PP
When someone speaks about correlating the heart with love, then he is on the road to understanding the Sacred Heart devotion which is all about the love of Christ for mankind.
Sorry, I dont see the similarity. It is figurative, the corelation between heart and love. The devotion is for the physical heart. It is not the same thing. Nowhere close. When I give someone a chocolate heart, it is not the yummy representation of an actual heart. This is like comparing apples to apple scented wallpaper.

PP

Again, I would suggest you read the entire encyclical.  So, it's long.  So what?  Read it in sections.  Pretend you're reading some of the posts here that include voluminous copy/pastes from other sources and pretty maps  Grin.  If you choose not to read the encyclical, one could hardly blame you.  But if you do so choose, then don't tell us you don't get it.  If you don't *want* to get it, well, that's okay, too, because you certainly do not have to.  But don't criticize or debunk what you choose to not understand  Wink.  Now, if you *do* read it and still don't understand, then that's the time to ask questions and seek clarification--if you really do want to understand.

And remember, too, that an encyclical is mainly just a letter sent from one **fallible** bishop to other fallible bishops, which does not carry the weight of an ex-cathedra infallible statement.







However it does carry greater teaching weight than a lay publication with the stamp of approval from two bishops.

Yes, of course.  I didn't mean to diminish the import of a papal encyclical.  At the same time I didn't want certain Orthodox posters to either intentionally or unintentionally get the impression that an encyclical from a pope was either a) a teaching letter from an infallible person, or b) an infallible teaching from a fallible person, or c) an infallible teaching from an infallible person.

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« Reply #164 on: October 05, 2011, 12:21:41 PM »



Yes, of course.  I didn't mean to diminish the import of a papal encyclical.  At the same time I didn't want certain Orthodox posters to either intentionally or unintentionally get the impression that an encyclical from a pope was either a) a teaching letter from an infallible person, or b) an infallible teaching from a fallible person, or c) an infallible teaching from an infallible person.



I am with you.  My additional comment was not meant for you actually... Smiley
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« Reply #165 on: October 05, 2011, 12:23:53 PM »



Yes, of course.  I didn't mean to diminish the import of a papal encyclical.  At the same time I didn't want certain Orthodox posters to either intentionally or unintentionally get the impression that an encyclical from a pope was either a) a teaching letter from an infallible person, or b) an infallible teaching from a fallible person, or c) an infallible teaching from an infallible person.



I am with you.  My additional comment was not meant for you actually... Smiley

 Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #166 on: October 05, 2011, 12:58:05 PM »

It is difficult to understand in a sense, but I don't think that Catholics have to follow or agree with everything a Pope says, even if it is in an encyclical. For example, there was a letter  of Pope Innocent IV that approved  the use of torture to extract confessions. There was another proclamation of a Pope from the Council of Florence that said that all Jews and schismatics would go to hell.

I know and I can understand that. What I find odd is this systematic arguments Romans have developed since the filioque to go round explicitly stated doctrine. "You know, we don't have to take that reaaally that literally" or "Yeah, it says that, but that's not what we mean".

I see a very disturbing chasm between what Roman Catholics believe and what the hierarchy of Rome states officially.

In a certain perspective, some Roman Catholics still believe and live Orthodoxily. They respect the Roman bishop as their hierarch but don't really believe in supremacy or infallibility, they don't get the point of having or not having the filioque and they have this generic understanding of the devotion being just a devotion to a symbol of the love of God - despite what the Roman hierarchy and theologians say.


If the devotion were just a symbol - that was my first understanding - of the love of God, I would stand by what I said in the first posts: it would need minor tinkerings to become fully Orthodox. But after one reads what the hierarchy and theologians officially teach, I think it is wishful thinking to explain their statements away as just oddly worded but meaning, really, "it's just a devotion to the love of God through the symbol of His Heart". It is what many Catholics do, it is what the hierarchy allows to happen, but it is not what they teach and believe. It's like schools which still teach the orbit model for electrons. They know it's not like that, but the model serves introducing kids to chemistry. Roman officials let Romans treat as just a devotion although they "know" the issue is more complex, that is, that it is really due worship to a part because it is the part of a whole that is due to worship. This is what becomes very clear when you contrast official sources and witnesses like yours from common faithful.

What I have hi-lighted I would say is very true !

Did you used to be a RC at one time? Just wondering.
Those Catholics who I know that are very devout and pius Christians are nothing like what you have high-lighted. What you have high-lighted tends to characterize those "Catholics" who demand women's ordination, abortion on demand, etc.
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« Reply #167 on: October 05, 2011, 12:58:05 PM »

You never found the Roman Church respectable, so cut out the nonsense.

Behave. You don't know anything about me. I have been under much more serious social problems for defending the Roman Church than you can imagine. From losing friendships to being labeled negatively in professional situations where I could have taken advantage of just repeating what the chorus sing. I - occasionally - collaborate with a media-watch newspaper with Catholic explicit catholic leanings and now and then I have to put up with the same prejudices they do. I have defended the role of the Roman church in the West and in Brazilian culture in face of secularists and atheists many times. Some of my best friends and my family are Romans, and the Roman Elderly Ladies Prayer Group used to go to my house frequently and we had wonderful conversations. So wash your mouth - or fingers - before trying to guess what I feel for anything.

What I don't respect Wyatt, is you and Elijamariah, only. Don't hide behind the Roman church. For all your histerical pseudo-apologetic you two pass as just mediocre trolls in a forum that has no rules for banning trolls and that is the only reason you thrive. I have debated these issues in person with Roman friends who are far more knowledgeable than you  and never, *never* any of then showed the kind of idiotic insecurity you two show here.  So you won't have the excuse of no-reference. I have plenty of references in my personal life of intelligent *pious* Romans who know how to discuss differences without ridiculously resorting to offenses or acusations.
Okay...I'll bite.

When you debated these issues (which I assume means the Sacred Heart devotion) with your oh-so-much-more-knowledgeable Roman friends, what was their take on it?

Also, don't mistake my unwillingness to pull out all the stops in my discussions with you as my being a "mediocre troll" or an unknowledgeable Catholic. When a position reaches a certain level of absurdity, it just feels like a waste of time. However, you have spunk and, believe it or not, I like you...so I'm going to throw a few things your way to think about. You can respond if you feel so inclined.

The quote by the Pope referencing the Sacred Heart devotion speaks of "worship." Nowadays, worship refers primarily to one thing and one thing only, and that is adoration which belongs to God alone. However, that was not always the case. In historical documents from the past, there are three things that the word worship can be referencing: dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. Only latria refers to the the type of worship that belongs only to God. Now...in terms of the Sacred Heart we have a unique situation since we are talking about God Incarnate's heart. Is the heart of God holy and sacred or isn't it (and thus worthy of some form of worship)? Keep in mind, I am operating under the premise that the Sacred Heart devotion is actually referring to the worship of Christ's literal heart to the exclusion of everything else, which seems to be the common Eastern Orthodox understanding of that particular Catholic devotion. I don't believe that that has been proven to be the intent of the devotion, however.

Also, I have a somewhat different yet related question for you. When someone uses the expression "well bless his/her heart," what are they saying?
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« Reply #168 on: October 05, 2011, 12:58:06 PM »

You never found the Roman Church respectable, so cut out the nonsense.

Behave. You don't know anything about me. I have been under much more serious social problems for defending the Roman Church than you can imagine. From losing friendships to being labeled negatively in professional situations where I could have taken advantage of just repeating what the chorus sing. I - occasionally - collaborate with a media-watch newspaper with Catholic explicit catholic leanings and now and then I have to put up with the same prejudices they do. I have defended the role of the Roman church in the West and in Brazilian culture in face of secularists and atheists many times. Some of my best friends and my family are Romans, and the Roman Elderly Ladies Prayer Group used to go to my house frequently and we had wonderful conversations. So wash your mouth - or fingers - before trying to guess what I feel for anything.

What I don't respect Wyatt, is you and Elijamariah, only. Don't hide behind the Roman church. For all your histerical pseudo-apologetic you two pass as just mediocre trolls in a forum that has no rules for banning trolls and that is the only reason you thrive. I have debated these issues in person with Roman friends who are far more knowledgeable than you  and never, *never* any of then showed the kind of idiotic insecurity you two show here.  So you won't have the excuse of no-reference. I have plenty of references in my personal life of intelligent *pious* Romans who know how to discuss differences without ridiculously resorting to offenses or acusations.

I guess you think that your anecdotal rants are valid and mine are not. 

I think my good teachers are every bit as good as your good Catholic co-whatevers...

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Now who is whining?
I guess he knows our faith more than we do since he hangs out with these alleged knowledgeable Catholic friends all the time.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #169 on: October 05, 2011, 01:16:46 PM »

For those with a devotional interest in the Sacred Heart:

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/DoorTwoHeartsAreOne.html
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« Reply #170 on: October 05, 2011, 01:28:14 PM »

For those with a devotional interest in the Sacred Heart:

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/DoorTwoHeartsAreOne.html

Ohhh.....but it's sooooooooo lonnnnnng.  Soooooooo many worrrrrrrrrrrrds........whatever shall I do?  CryRoll Eyes laugh Roll Eyes Cry laugh Roll Eyes Cry laugh



Now, on a more serious note---Thanks  Smiley!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 01:29:02 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #171 on: October 05, 2011, 01:35:28 PM »

For those with a devotional interest in the Sacred Heart:

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/DoorTwoHeartsAreOne.html

Ohhh.....but it's sooooooooo lonnnnnng.  Soooooooo many worrrrrrrrrrrrds........whatever shall I do?  CryRoll Eyes laugh Roll Eyes Cry laugh Roll Eyes Cry laugh



Now, on a more serious note---Thanks  Smiley!

Right-o!!  Cheesy  Wink
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« Reply #172 on: October 05, 2011, 03:50:25 PM »

For those with a devotional interest in the Sacred Heart:http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/DoorTwoHeartsAreOne.html


From the website:
But why is this reparation and consecration needed. Our Lord told St. Margaret Mary why reparation was needed for His Sacred Heart. As we have seen Pope St. Pius X in 1912, granted a plenary indulgence for those making reparation. Our Lady is the object of certain blasphemies and offenses aimed directly at herself.

1. Blasphemy against her Immaculate Conception.


How is it possible to blaspheme an innovation (IC)?
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« Reply #173 on: October 05, 2011, 03:53:15 PM »

For those with a devotional interest in the Sacred Heart:http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/DoorTwoHeartsAreOne.html


From the website:
But why is this reparation and consecration needed. Our Lord told St. Margaret Mary why reparation was needed for His Sacred Heart. As we have seen Pope St. Pius X in 1912, granted a plenary indulgence for those making reparation. Our Lady is the object of certain blasphemies and offenses aimed directly at herself.

1. Blasphemy against her Immaculate Conception.


How is it possible to blasphemy an innovation?

What innovation?

The Immaculate Conception is not blasphemed:  The God who loves her is however when the demonstration of his love for her is denied so vehemently.  Would be far better to simply ignore.

I am so glad you took time to read parts of the article.

M.
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« Reply #174 on: October 05, 2011, 03:54:42 PM »

[quote author
The Immaculate Conception is not blasphemed: 

That is the point.  It cannot be blashpemed....because it is an innovation. Undecided
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« Reply #175 on: October 05, 2011, 04:18:18 PM »


What I have hi-lighted I would say is very true !

Did you used to be a RC at one time? Just wondering.

Not really. I was baptized, went to cathecism, but I was just doing what my parents told me. Nevertheless, I talk to many people and I ask them about these issues when and if convenient.

Most Romans don't care about papal claims. Some don't even believe that there is such a thing as supremacy or infallibility, even when I explain the constraints on the concepts. Most are exactly like elijamariah, "protestant Romans". They pick and choose words from the hierarchy and the pope to build their own private faith. They interpret them in the most theologically diluted sense and actually adhere to a kind of "pragmatic" faith that is "be loving to others, try not to sin, love God, go to Mass, confess, take Comunion" and that's it.

In a sense, this is what "saves" (not using the theological sense here) the Roman Church as an institution. It's so big and the hierarchy so distant in social terms, most faithful don't take its most outrageous claims seriously.
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« Reply #176 on: October 05, 2011, 04:31:32 PM »


I guess you think that your anecdotal rants are valid and mine are not. 

I don't use mine as arguments. The lowest forms of expression go to those who are in affinity with them.

Plus, that's not a rant about Catholicism or the Vatican. It is a limit. Both you and Wyatt systematically call people here idiots, ignorant, ill-intended and now you two are implying liar as well. That while altogether being unable to put two arguments together, respect your own sources or use the few mentioned in any coherent way. If trolling is allowed, bashing the trolls now and then can't be that bad either. You and Wyatt *will* be treated as the childish imature brats you show us to be in your posts.

Quote
I think my good teachers are every bit as good as your good Catholic co-whatevers...

Considering the respect your teachers have passed to you for primary sources, I doubt that.

Quote
Now who is whining?

You in the very act of asking for trying some compesation for not before and not now being able to hide whatever issues you have behind pseudo-apologetics.
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« Reply #177 on: October 05, 2011, 04:41:18 PM »

[quote author
The Immaculate Conception is not blasphemed: 

That is the point.  It cannot be blashpemed....because it is an innovation. Undecided
Attacking the Blessed Virgin Mary, conceived immaculate, full of Grace, and set apart by God Himself to be the unblemished vessel to house the Messiah, is blasphemy towards God.
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« Reply #178 on: October 05, 2011, 05:59:32 PM »

[quote author
The Immaculate Conception is not blasphemed: 

That is the point.  It cannot be blashpemed....because it is an innovation. Undecided
Attacking the Blessed Virgin Mary, conceived immaculate, full of Grace, and set apart by God Himself to be the unblemished vessel to house the Messiah, is blasphemy towards God.
Attacking God, by saying that he would rob the Theotokos of her free will by setting her apart to be an unblemished vessel, is blasphemy.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #179 on: October 05, 2011, 06:06:29 PM »

[quote author
The Immaculate Conception is not blasphemed: 

That is the point.  It cannot be blashpemed....because it is an innovation. Undecided
Attacking the Blessed Virgin Mary, conceived immaculate, full of Grace, and set apart by God Himself to be the unblemished vessel to house the Messiah, is blasphemy towards God.
Attacking God, by saying that he would rob the Theotokos of her free will by setting her apart to be an unblemished vessel, is blasphemy.  Roll Eyes

...?
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