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Author Topic: Yesh's Objections to Orthodox Christianity  (Read 3563 times) Average Rating: 0
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theistgal
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« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2011, 08:13:38 PM »

Good grief, all I was trying to do was find some common ground with the OP and express some sympathy with what he's going through. Sorry I offended anyone by reminiscing about a friendship I had 35 years ago!!

I hope that this wasn't directed at me... sorry I made a long post quoting you (?), but it was directed more at JLatimer and used (meaning to use) both of your posts as a springboard for some of my own disjointed thoughts.  I like sympathizing posts, theistgal!

Well, then I apologize for jumping the gun.  I did take it as an attack on me but obviously it's just because I've had wayyy too much caffeine today!  Grin  Sorry!  Kiss
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2012, 12:15:57 PM »

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA



This is coming from a evangelical / protestant Christian who wrote the article.  His struggle is semi-understandable to me, but I think he lacks concrete arguments.

I have found the things that I have presented tend to get under the skin of many Eastern Orthodox Christians because I do have a huge history in the Eastern Orthodox church.  However, the issue with me is if I think the church is either invalid, or if many practices and teachings have hi-jacked parts of the church.

My issue is the latter.  I believe at its core the Eastern Orthodox theology 'is' correct, but has been very hijacked.   Sometimes hijacked into the point of direct blasphemy of God.  My questions have never been answered, merely often addressed in a rude manner.

1) Is an icon - An image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth?    We were commanded NOT to make an image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth.   People also bow down to them (or the likeness in representation) which we were commanded not to do.  I believe this is a hijack.
2) Do you call your Bishop "master"?  Do you bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless!".  If you do, you are calling a MAN master, which Yeshua commanded us not to.  I believe this to be a hijack.
3) bizarre practices, structure, superstitions - iconostasis, antimension, blessings of many objects, table of oblation, bow cross yourself bow cross yourself bow cross yourself.
4) Vain repetition in prayer - "Jesus prayer" x33 for a small prayer rope, x100 if you are studly (I guess God doesn't hear?)

So anyway, these things are ALL bizarre, and were NOT practiced by the early Christians.

Convenient explanation  - "evolution of the church"  - even if it defies what GOD told you not to do.

Now I do love some of the historical elements of Orthodoxy, and at the core I find it correct.   But there has been way too much "fluff" added to it that people validate and excuse.   Now even ecumenism, which to an Orthodox should be a massive heresy.

Of course, we see where interfaith goes:
http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/ourcountry/94422/chely-wright-marries-partner-lauren-blitzer-in-connecticut?nc

So there is too much irony in Eastern Orthodoxy for me.

I've found that the anabaptist faith, though lacking in multitudes of years, somewhat "slashed" the muck and re-routed to what I am reading early Christians practiced in routine.

1) Simplicity of living.
2) Non resistance.
3) Holding the sacraments such as matrimony for life (compare anabaptist divorce rate to EO).
4) Many are of communal living (not just monks) such as the Hutterites and many sects of the Amish & share a common money bag.
5) They do not hold public office and do not swear oaths of office as commanded by Christ.
6) Modesty of dress for all people including head coverings for women. (1st Corinthians 11).
7) Heavy teachings of contentment.

Early Eastern Orthodox Christians practiced all 7. (Pre-Nicea)

Today the church "evolved" into something it wasn't.

That's why I can't call myself "Eastern", but I can say Orthodox.
The Early church was "the right way".
The Early church should have not of evolved with so much mumbo jumbo.

1)The Old Testament Church was decorated with images with the likeness of things in heaven and on earth.The book of the Torah is venerated in Judaism till this day.Not to mention that every synagogues has an Magen David.

3)The arhitecture of the Church is after the fashion of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon.. The blessing of objects after the same fashion.. Every time we cross ourselves we 'make a sacrifice to God' ...

4)About the repetition of the Jesus prayer, as you said the snail got into the ark by perseverance...
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2012, 11:21:52 PM »

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA



This is coming from a evangelical / protestant Christian who wrote the article.  His struggle is semi-understandable to me, but I think he lacks concrete arguments.

I have found the things that I have presented tend to get under the skin of many Eastern Orthodox Christians because I do have a huge history in the Eastern Orthodox church.  However, the issue with me is if I think the church is either invalid, or if many practices and teachings have hi-jacked parts of the church.

My issue is the latter.  I believe at its core the Eastern Orthodox theology 'is' correct, but has been very hijacked.   Sometimes hijacked into the point of direct blasphemy of God.  My questions have never been answered, merely often addressed in a rude manner.

1) Is an icon - An image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth?    We were commanded NOT to make an image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth.   People also bow down to them (or the likeness in representation) which we were commanded not to do.  I believe this is a hijack.
2) Do you call your Bishop "master"?  Do you bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless!".  If you do, you are calling a MAN master, which Yeshua commanded us not to.  I believe this to be a hijack.
3) bizarre practices, structure, superstitions - iconostasis, antimension, blessings of many objects, table of oblation, bow cross yourself bow cross yourself bow cross yourself.
4) Vain repetition in prayer - "Jesus prayer" x33 for a small prayer rope, x100 if you are studly (I guess God doesn't hear?)

So anyway, these things are ALL bizarre, and were NOT practiced by the early Christians.

Convenient explanation  - "evolution of the church"  - even if it defies what GOD told you not to do.

Now I do love some of the historical elements of Orthodoxy, and at the core I find it correct.   But there has been way too much "fluff" added to it that people validate and excuse.   Now even ecumenism, which to an Orthodox should be a massive heresy.

Of course, we see where interfaith goes:
http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/ourcountry/94422/chely-wright-marries-partner-lauren-blitzer-in-connecticut?nc

So there is too much irony in Eastern Orthodoxy for me.

I've found that the anabaptist faith, though lacking in multitudes of years, somewhat "slashed" the muck and re-routed to what I am reading early Christians practiced in routine.

1) Simplicity of living.
2) Non resistance.
3) Holding the sacraments such as matrimony for life (compare anabaptist divorce rate to EO).
4) Many are of communal living (not just monks) such as the Hutterites and many sects of the Amish & share a common money bag.
5) They do not hold public office and do not swear oaths of office as commanded by Christ.
6) Modesty of dress for all people including head coverings for women. (1st Corinthians 11).
7) Heavy teachings of contentment.

Early Eastern Orthodox Christians practiced all 7. (Pre-Nicea)

Today the church "evolved" into something it wasn't.

That's why I can't call myself "Eastern", but I can say Orthodox.
The Early church was "the right way".
The Early church should have not of evolved with so much mumbo jumbo.

1)The Old Testament Church was decorated with images with the likeness of things in heaven and on earth.The book of the Torah is venerated in Judaism till this day.Not to mention that every synagogues has an Magen David.

3)The arhitecture of the Church is after the fashion of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon.. The blessing of objects after the same fashion.. Every time we cross ourselves we 'make a sacrifice to God' ...

4)About the repetition of the Jesus prayer, as you said the snail got into the ark by perseverance...

Azul,

I appreciate your response and though I don't agree with some of the answers in the entire thread, I can also see the viewpoints of some of the answers as well.    This thread WAS 6 months old. 

Many of the topics discussed I have chosen to bury, and perhaps in a more articulate and expanded way address some of these things at a later time in a "not-so-attacking-seemingly" way.   Sometimes my text and content do not coincide with the "tone of voice", heart, and thoughts that I originally wanted to present the issues with, and I ask forgiveness for that, from you & everybody else.



 
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« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

Sure, but while we are at it: 

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA

...However, the issue with me is if I think the church is either invalid, or if many practices and teachings have hi-jacked parts of the church.

My issue is the latter.  I believe at its core the Eastern Orthodox theology 'is' correct, but has been very hijacked.   Sometimes hijacked into the point of direct blasphemy of God.  My questions have never been answered, merely often addressed in a rude manner.

1) Is an icon - An image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth?    We were commanded NOT to make an image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth.   People also bow down to them (or the likeness in representation) which we were commanded not to do.  I believe this is a hijack.

Quote
2) Do you call your Bishop "master"?  Do you bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless!".  If you do, you are calling a MAN master, which Yeshua commanded us not to.  I believe this to be a hijack.
Actually the Greek does not mention the word man, and in the case of master, it is not directed against the one saying it, but against the one receiving it.  We call bishops despota, something not mentioned in Matt. 23

Quote
3) bizarre practices, structure, superstitions - iconostasis, antimension, blessings of many objects, table of oblation, bow cross yourself bow cross yourself bow cross yourself.
They are bizarre to you.  So what?  Are you that big on yourself?   Sounds to me like a completely subjective judgment.  Good luck with that. 

Quote
4) Vain repetition in prayer - "Jesus prayer" x33 for a small prayer rope, x100 if you are studly (I guess God doesn't hear?)


You would be very uncomfortable in heaven with the angels unceasingly proclaiming holy holy holy... (Isaiah and Revelation).  There is a difference between vain repetition "to be seen by men for your many words" and truly praising God from the heart. 

Quote
So anyway, these things are ALL bizarre, and were NOT practiced by the early Christians.

You are not well versed in early Christian liturgics, apparently.  But again, even if just taking the bible, you have much of this as liturgical practice...the primary purpose of the book of revelation.  The modern Church should not have to deal with such mumbo jumbo to the contrary ( @op   Wink  )

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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2012, 05:48:59 PM »

Sure, but while we are at it: 

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA

...However, the issue with me is if I think the church is either invalid, or if many practices and teachings have hi-jacked parts of the church.

My issue is the latter.  I believe at its core the Eastern Orthodox theology 'is' correct, but has been very hijacked.   Sometimes hijacked into the point of direct blasphemy of God.  My questions have never been answered, merely often addressed in a rude manner.

1) Is an icon - An image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth?    We were commanded NOT to make an image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth.   People also bow down to them (or the likeness in representation) which we were commanded not to do.  I believe this is a hijack.

Quote
2) Do you call your Bishop "master"?  Do you bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless!".  If you do, you are calling a MAN master, which Yeshua commanded us not to.  I believe this to be a hijack.
Actually the Greek does not mention the word man, and in the case of master, it is not directed against the one saying it, but against the one receiving it.  We call bishops despota, something not mentioned in Matt. 23

Quote
3) bizarre practices, structure, superstitions - iconostasis, antimension, blessings of many objects, table of oblation, bow cross yourself bow cross yourself bow cross yourself.
They are bizarre to you.  So what?  Are you that big on yourself?   Sounds to me like a completely subjective judgment.  Good luck with that. 

Quote
4) Vain repetition in prayer - "Jesus prayer" x33 for a small prayer rope, x100 if you are studly (I guess God doesn't hear?)


You would be very uncomfortable in heaven with the angels unceasingly proclaiming holy holy holy... (Isaiah and Revelation).  There is a difference between vain repetition "to be seen by men for your many words" and truly praising God from the heart. 

Quote
So anyway, these things are ALL bizarre, and were NOT practiced by the early Christians.

You are not well versed in early Christian liturgics, apparently.  But again, even if just taking the bible, you have much of this as liturgical practice...the primary purpose of the book of revelation.  The modern Church should not have to deal with such mumbo jumbo to the contrary ( @op   Wink  )



I don't know if I can respond to you without getting in trouble. 

All I can tell you is that you go here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t__46_yVnhs and go to :30 seconds and listen.  You don't hear "despota".   This video was with many clergy present, at the OCA - St. Seraphims in Dallas, TX @ Bishop Dmitri's funeral great bishop entrance.  LOTS of clergy, lots of priests & bishops present.   It's not my video, and I have not given my opinion on the matter.

Now, if you would like to discuss the issues, please PM me.

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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2012, 11:30:39 PM »

Sure, but while we are at it: 

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA

...However, the issue with me is if I think the church is either invalid, or if many practices and teachings have hi-jacked parts of the church.

My issue is the latter.  I believe at its core the Eastern Orthodox theology 'is' correct, but has been very hijacked.   Sometimes hijacked into the point of direct blasphemy of God.  My questions have never been answered, merely often addressed in a rude manner.

1) Is an icon - An image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth?    We were commanded NOT to make an image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth.   People also bow down to them (or the likeness in representation) which we were commanded not to do.  I believe this is a hijack.

Quote
2) Do you call your Bishop "master"?  Do you bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless!".  If you do, you are calling a MAN master, which Yeshua commanded us not to.  I believe this to be a hijack.
Actually the Greek does not mention the word man, and in the case of master, it is not directed against the one saying it, but against the one receiving it.  We call bishops despota, something not mentioned in Matt. 23

Quote
3) bizarre practices, structure, superstitions - iconostasis, antimension, blessings of many objects, table of oblation, bow cross yourself bow cross yourself bow cross yourself.
They are bizarre to you.  So what?  Are you that big on yourself?   Sounds to me like a completely subjective judgment.  Good luck with that. 

Quote
4) Vain repetition in prayer - "Jesus prayer" x33 for a small prayer rope, x100 if you are studly (I guess God doesn't hear?)


You would be very uncomfortable in heaven with the angels unceasingly proclaiming holy holy holy... (Isaiah and Revelation).  There is a difference between vain repetition "to be seen by men for your many words" and truly praising God from the heart. 

Quote
So anyway, these things are ALL bizarre, and were NOT practiced by the early Christians.

You are not well versed in early Christian liturgics, apparently.  But again, even if just taking the bible, you have much of this as liturgical practice...the primary purpose of the book of revelation.  The modern Church should not have to deal with such mumbo jumbo to the contrary ( @op   Wink  )



I don't know if I can respond to you without getting in trouble. 

All I can tell you is that you go here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t__46_yVnhs and go to :30 seconds and listen.  You don't hear "despota".   This video was with many clergy present, at the OCA - St. Seraphims in Dallas, TX @ Bishop Dmitri's funeral great bishop entrance.  LOTS of clergy, lots of priests & bishops present.   It's not my video, and I have not given my opinion on the matter.

Now, if you would like to discuss the issues, please PM me.


What are you talking about?  Jesus did not speak English.  The Apostles did not write in English.  Some English translators have decided to translate in Matt. 23 as "master."  Other translations have been more careful, as the word there is not master.   CASE CLOSED.     
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2012, 01:11:27 AM »

Sure, but while we are at it: 

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA

...However, the issue with me is if I think the church is either invalid, or if many practices and teachings have hi-jacked parts of the church.

My issue is the latter.  I believe at its core the Eastern Orthodox theology 'is' correct, but has been very hijacked.   Sometimes hijacked into the point of direct blasphemy of God.  My questions have never been answered, merely often addressed in a rude manner.

1) Is an icon - An image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth?    We were commanded NOT to make an image in the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth.   People also bow down to them (or the likeness in representation) which we were commanded not to do.  I believe this is a hijack.

Quote
2) Do you call your Bishop "master"?  Do you bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless!".  If you do, you are calling a MAN master, which Yeshua commanded us not to.  I believe this to be a hijack.
Actually the Greek does not mention the word man, and in the case of master, it is not directed against the one saying it, but against the one receiving it.  We call bishops despota, something not mentioned in Matt. 23

Quote
3) bizarre practices, structure, superstitions - iconostasis, antimension, blessings of many objects, table of oblation, bow cross yourself bow cross yourself bow cross yourself.
They are bizarre to you.  So what?  Are you that big on yourself?   Sounds to me like a completely subjective judgment.  Good luck with that. 

Quote
4) Vain repetition in prayer - "Jesus prayer" x33 for a small prayer rope, x100 if you are studly (I guess God doesn't hear?)


You would be very uncomfortable in heaven with the angels unceasingly proclaiming holy holy holy... (Isaiah and Revelation).  There is a difference between vain repetition "to be seen by men for your many words" and truly praising God from the heart. 

Quote
So anyway, these things are ALL bizarre, and were NOT practiced by the early Christians.

You are not well versed in early Christian liturgics, apparently.  But again, even if just taking the bible, you have much of this as liturgical practice...the primary purpose of the book of revelation.  The modern Church should not have to deal with such mumbo jumbo to the contrary ( @op   Wink  )



I don't know if I can respond to you without getting in trouble. 

All I can tell you is that you go here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t__46_yVnhs and go to :30 seconds and listen.  You don't hear "despota".   This video was with many clergy present, at the OCA - St. Seraphims in Dallas, TX @ Bishop Dmitri's funeral great bishop entrance.  LOTS of clergy, lots of priests & bishops present.   It's not my video, and I have not given my opinion on the matter.

Now, if you would like to discuss the issues, please PM me.


What are you talking about?  Jesus did not speak English.  The Apostles did not write in English.  Some English translators have decided to translate in Matt. 23 as "master."  Other translations have been more careful, as the word there is not master.   CASE CLOSED.     

Guess you are CASE CLOSED against:

King James Version
American Standard Version
21st Century King James Version
New Century Version

Dictionaries with translation in the Greek (it says Master)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/despot
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/despot (Scroll to the origin in Greek)

Other links
http://music.aol.com/song/pritcha/eis-polla-eti-despota-long-live-our-mast/9629017
http://www.answers.com/topic/despot  After definitions, in light print, origin in Greek

Sorry, I don't agree with you and believe King James got it right. Despota = Master all in the same.   If you speak Greek, you should not be calling your bishop Despota.

Other English biblical translations it equates to "revered FATHER" or "teacher/instructor".  Well "FATHER" and "TEACHER (Rabbi)"... Covered in the same passages anyway.  "Do not call any man Rabbi..., Father..., or Master"

Not against you brother.  Not against the EO church entirely either.  In fact I love Orthodoxy, but there are elements of it which come to alarm me, this being one of them.  I did intend on this thread to die.  It was brought back after 6 months of dormancy.
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