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Author Topic: "are you born again?"  (Read 3081 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2011, 01:59:18 PM »

Harold Bloom has demonstrated that American Religion is all re-hashed Gnosticism: from Mormons to Southern Baptists. So, these people, asking these questions are most likely Gnostic Evangelicals. I would give them the answer most likely to piss them off.
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« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2011, 02:06:11 PM »

Harold Bloom has demonstrated that American Religion is all re-hashed Gnosticism: from Mormons to Southern Baptists. So, these people, asking these questions are most likely Gnostic Evangelicals. I would give them the answer most likely to piss them off.

Probably the only interesting thing he ever wrote. Not I buy into his idea completely, but definitely interesting. I certainly had no idea the degree the Mormons have a hold of and an active plan of "taking over" America.
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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2011, 02:07:14 PM »

Harold Bloom has demonstrated that American Religion is all re-hashed Gnosticism: from Mormons to Southern Baptists. So, these people, asking these questions are most likely Gnostic Evangelicals. I would give them the answer most likely to piss them off.
Alas, I must disagree -- not that they have Gnostic tendencies, for perhaps they do, the Mormons certainly -- but I would rather respond in love.  I have no idea who Harold Bloom is, but, believe me, I know plenty about Mormon faith, doctrine, and culture.  I doubt that they'd be asking the "born again" question anyway, as their theology is so off-base it has entirely different points of reference.  Getting back to the poster, an arrogant response would confirm their predispositions and their pride.  I would rather bring them toward Holy Orthodoxy, than confirm their prejudices and drive them away from it.  It is God's business to humble them, not mine.  The task of serving others in such a situation is very difficult and requires enormous humility.  Hence, with respect to myself, I do not state what "is."  Simply what "ought" to be.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 02:09:46 PM by Yurysprudentsiya » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2011, 02:10:09 PM »

Rus' has been Orthodox for a thousand years.

Nominally, yes. But not actually. Actually, it has been predominantly Pagan for centuries. Believe me, I read enough of the great Russian literature in its original language to know that. If you knew Russian, just this ONE novelette by Ivan Bunin (a Nobel Prize winner and a devout Orthodox himself) would make you agree with me: http://az.lib.ru/b/bunin_i_a/text_1380.shtml

the West, especially embodied in American culture, is full of nihilism and death. The default American culture is anti-Christian. The Russian one is not.

That is an overstatement, I'm afraid. A lot less abortions are performed in the USA and in Western Europe than in Russia. Very few Russian citizens actually go to church regularly. Russia steadily occupies the first place in the world in alcohol consumption. Many more Russian, than Western, orphaned children are being continuously abused and/or neglected. The entire system of doing business in Russia is corrupt to the bone. I can go on, but I am afraid that this will be taken as discussing politics by our moderators, so I'll stop here.

There are ways (though frustrating they may be) to work towards the goal of an autocephalous church without breaking formal communion with the Church. Perhaps one day Ukraine will have its own canonical, national church. I hope that is so, as they are rightfully deserving of it. However, the local Orthodox Church in Ukraine to this day is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.

I fully agree. But it's a very strange organization. I know some of its prominent figurers personally, for example, in July 2010 I had the honor of personally meeting Fr. Heorhij Kovalenko, the Press-Secretary of Metr. +VOLODYMYR (Sabodan). We talked about the statute of UOC not making any sense, because one of its paragraphs states that all decisions in the UOC are made autonomously by her Sacred Synode, and the next paragraph immediately says that that's not the case. In one paragraph it is called UOC and in another it is mentioned as a part of the Russian Orthodox Church (while there is a subtle difference between "Church of Russia" and "Russian Church" in the original language, it is completely lost when translated into other languages). Fr. Heorhij actually AGREES with me (and with many others) that yes, the statute is schizophrenic. However, they cannot change it because right now, there exists a kind of "dynamic equilibrium" within UOC between the so-called "Ukrainian Party" and the various Russophils.

Let's not paint our canonical, Orthodox brethen as "evil" while actively supporting those who lead many away from the Church, even if we believe in what they are trying to accomplish for Ukraine, they have left the Church. Maybe it will work out in the long run and the schism healed. It's happened before. However, that's not something with which I'm willing to gamble.

I don't consider all UOC-MP members evil. Again, I have very close and dear friends among the UOC-MP laity and clergy. I communicate with them every day, learning a lot from them. What I consider evil is not people, but, rather, the idea that Ukraine can well live without anything specifically Ukrainian in it - without the Ukrainian language, culture, history, and Church.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 02:12:05 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2011, 02:42:37 PM »

how do you respond if you are asked if you are "born again"? This comes after I had to hear my mother in law talk about how some members of her evangelical church used to be catholic became "born again". I'm not sure how to respond if someone asks me that "are you born again christian?
To say that a Catholic became "born again" by going to a different church demonstrates that someone is not familiar with how the term is used Biblically and historically.  Here, they are using "born again" to mean a zealous conversion from "dead ritual" to emotionalism.  The only conversion necessary is one of repentence of the heart.  The implication here is that a Roman Catholic could not possibly be a Christian, because they do not have emotionalism and zeal in their worship.  I think that's what it boils down to.  It demonstrates a woeful ignorance of church history.  I'd make the explanation of what the term really means, as in the last post, and then I'd advise such people to really study the Second Great Awakening (ca. early 1800s), Charles Finney, etc., and see the roots of their revivalist theology.  While it had its good points in focusing people on Christ, its excesses created an emotionalism-based, individualism-based religion which is far, far divorced from the Christianity of the Bible and the Church.  The Second Great Awakening led to the splinter groups such as the Mormons, the Millerites (by extension the Jehovah's Witnesses), etc.  It was an attempt on the part of some to re-reform the Reformation.  Even such staid traditionalistic groups as the Amish and Mennonites were not immune from its influence.  Then I'd reassure the person that zealous Christianity need not be expressed in terms of a radicalization of the  liturgy, but by radically living the Christian life as we are called to do.  Much more difficult and meaningful.
yep. tell me something I don't know Wink
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2011, 04:25:20 PM »

The implication here is that a Roman Catholic could not possibly be a Christian, because they do not have emotionalism and zeal in their worship.  I think that's what it boils down to.  It demonstrates a woeful ignorance of church history.  I'd make the explanation of what the term really means, as in the last post, and then I'd advise such people to really study the Second Great Awakening (ca. early 1800s), Charles Finney, etc., and see the roots of their revivalist theology.  While it had its good points in focusing people on Christ, its excesses created an emotionalism-based, individualism-based religion which is far, far divorced from the Christianity of the Bible and the Church.  The Second Great Awakening led to the splinter groups such as the Mormons, the Millerites (by extension the Jehovah's Witnesses), etc.  It was an attempt on the part of some to re-reform the Reformation.  Even such staid traditionalistic groups as the Amish and Mennonites were not immune from its influence.  Then I'd reassure the person that zealous Christianity need not be expressed in terms of a radicalization of the liturgy, but by radically living the Christian life as we are called to do.  Much more difficult and meaningful.

I don't think that it has to mean emotionalism, but rather even just a basic awareness of the Christian faith and some kind of personal awareness of and interaction with God. Many people are culturally endowed with the title of Christian, but they have no real understudying of any of Christ's teachings. These people see being "born again" as having some kind of personal investment and commitment in one's Christianity. Even if it is a lifelong process from birth, there needs to be some kind of ongoing interaction between the person and God. Merely going to church out of habit or custom with no regard for Jesus Christ or anything about him outside of the hours of the liturgy is not the Christian life. Well, I guess it can be a form of it, but it's nothing praiseworthy. The thing is that we are not supposed to judge a person's state and assume that people are like this.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 04:25:49 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2011, 08:41:40 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAlCze3ZFjA

"Are you Saved?" An Orthodox answer
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pasadi97
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 10:39:12 PM »

well, what I'm trying to find out how to respond if evangelicals ask me that question-the response seem to be"yes, I'm born again. All of us become born again through baptism". Is that correct?

You respond with truth:

For 1500 being born years again has meant baptism. From 1500 on with Sola Imagination some people had imagination that being born again means to say several words.

John 3:3
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,{The word translated "anew" here and in John 3:7 (anothen) also means "again" and "from above".} he can't see the Kingdom of God."


So no born anew no Heaven however John 3:5 has more information about being born anew:
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God!

Water is associated with baptism.
Nor saying that words can not baptize.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 10:47:09 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2011, 06:53:30 AM »

casisthename,
awesome video, do you know who is the lady speaking?
i plan to use it in the future, it sums up orthodox doctrine beautifully.
 Smiley
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pasadi97
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2011, 09:23:47 AM »

Where is water in Protestant declaration?
Some denominations renounced baptism all together in their wrong imagination sending their people maybe not in Heaven. ANYHOW SOME PEOPLE ON THEIR DEADBED SEEING SICK ANGELS COMMING MAY HAVE THE INSPIRATION TO ASK FOR JESUS TO COME TO THEM AND SAVE THEM, THAT IS TO BE BAPTIED RIGHT THERE. JESUS IS PRIEST TOO, I BELIEVE.

well, what I'm trying to find out how to respond if evangelicals ask me that question-the response seem to be"yes, I'm born again. All of us become born again through baptism". Is that correct?

You respond with truth:

For 1500 being born years again has meant baptism. From 1500 on with Sola Imagination some people had imagination that being born again means to say several words.

John 3:3
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,{The word translated "anew" here and in John 3:7 (anothen) also means "again" and "from above".} he can't see the Kingdom of God."


So no born anew no Heaven however John 3:5 has more information about being born anew:
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God!

Water is associated with baptism.
Nor saying that words can not baptize.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 09:27:43 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2011, 10:01:41 AM »

i would definitely assume that 'born again' means baptism and not saying some magic prayer or group of words.

as someone who still spends a lot of time in protestant circles, i see how it can be confusing because 'born again' is a very evangelical (especially southern baptist) term these days.
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2011, 10:17:21 AM »

Prayer and magic are two different things. MAgic= connection with sick angel. Prayer = connection with God.

So God taught Church that everybody needs baptism.
Protestantism gives a new definition of born again that is to say a prayer. If you read the Anti apostle book about a man comming into Romkaqn Catholic Church to destroy it from inside, he as a p[riest had to say prayers. However he learned from other anti apostle veryb similar words that would not give the effect of transforming bread to Holy Communion. So even the small changes of prayers and word can have great effect.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 10:18:04 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2011, 10:26:19 AM »

Prayer and magic are two different things. MAgic= connection with sick angel. Prayer = connection with God.

So God taught Church that everybody needs baptism.
Protestantism gives a new definition of born again that is to say a prayer. If you read the Anti apostle book about a man comming into Romkaqn Catholic Church to destroy it from inside, he as a p[riest had to say prayers. However he learned from other anti apostle veryb similar words that would not give the effect of transforming bread to Holy Communion. So even the small changes of prayers and word can have great effect.

Sorry for the confusion. I do undersand the difference in magic an prayer or course. I was being slightly sarcastic and was referring to the number of times I have heard a pastor say "pray this prayer and you will receive eternal life." Its like it's some sort of fire insurance. As long as you pray this prayer, you can live however you please! and I don't mean to judge or anything. I certainty can't judge anyone's heart. Growing up Protestant I've heard it so many times and I have never been comfortable with it.
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« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2011, 12:00:47 PM »

What if I'm just a catachumen and haven't been baptized yet. How exactly do I answer that question?
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« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2011, 12:10:06 PM »

fire insurance

I have heard these exact words used by a baptist sunday school teacher when I was younger.

Quote
Growing up Protestant I've heard it so many times and I have never been comfortable with it.

I know the feeling.
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« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2011, 12:18:16 PM »

What if I'm just a catachumen and haven't been baptized yet. How exactly do I answer that question?

I suppose you could just tell them that you "trust in Jesus to save me from my sins" without directly answering the question. It would (please correct me if I'm wrong) be true and if you were to die as a catechumen would receive an Orthodox funeral. I believe that dieing as a catechumen or as confessing the faith without being properly received into the Church has been referred to before as a "baptism of desire".
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« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2011, 12:58:18 PM »

Quote from: pasadi97
For 1500 being born years again has meant baptism. From 1500 on with Sola Imagination some people had imagination that being born again means to say several words.


True!  angel Well said.
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