Author Topic: Guilty as charged  (Read 1300 times)

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Offline kevjminn

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Guilty as charged
« on: August 23, 2011, 08:40:17 PM »
Hello all.

I am feeling really guilty as of late. I had been questioning my faith the last few months, and started looking at Roman Catholicism. I attended a few Eastern liturgies and didn't see much of a difference. But once I started looking into their teachings, I found that the OC and RC are VERY different.

I haven't attended an Orthodox liturgy in about 6 months. Is this something I should confess to a priest? I am fairly new to Orthodoxy, and I don't know if these thoughts and feelings are considered sinful or not. I plan on attending vespers and liturgy this weekend and would like to receive the eucharist, but I don't know if a confession is necessary or not. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance,

Kevin

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 08:47:34 PM »
Hello all.

I am feeling really guilty as of late. I had been questioning my faith the last few months, and started looking at Roman Catholicism. I attended a few Eastern liturgies and didn't see much of a difference. But once I started looking into their teachings, I found that the OC and RC are VERY different.

I haven't attended an Orthodox liturgy in about 6 months. Is this something I should confess to a priest? I am fairly new to Orthodoxy, and I don't know if these thoughts and feelings are considered sinful or not. I plan on attending vespers and liturgy this weekend and would like to receive the eucharist, but I don't know if a confession is necessary or not. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance,

Kevin

Kevin,

It's understandable that you would want to venture out and look at other churches, especially as a convert. At the very least, you want to make sure you're where you should be! I do have to say, though, I'm glad you've seen the differences between the Orthodox and the Latins, and that you're seeking to come back home! ;D

That said, I believe that the standing rule in the OCA remains that if a member of the faithful willingly (within reason, of course, life happens sometimes!) misses more than three Sunday liturgies in a row, he is excommunicate and should make confession before communing again. I would encourage you, then, to go to your parish priest (I'm assuming you'll be going to your home parish) and make confession, speak with him about all of this and give it to Christ. Again, welcome back. :)
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline kevjminn

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 08:58:19 PM »
Deep down I feel that I should confess. We've been in between churches as of late so ther one we will be attending is going to be a new one. I guess I'll just talk to the priest after vespers on saturday. It really stinks having to confess this! But I guess it's never easy.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 09:19:42 PM »
That said, I believe that the standing rule in the OCA remains that if a member of the faithful willingly (within reason, of course, life happens sometimes!) misses more than three Sunday liturgies in a row, he is excommunicate and should make confession before communing again. I would encourage you, then, to go to your parish priest (I'm assuming you'll be going to your home parish) and make confession, speak with him about all of this and give it to Christ. Again, welcome back. :)


A charitable and informative post as always. You nearly bat 1.000.

Could you give some reference for the bolded part?

Thanks.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 09:34:12 PM »
That said, I believe that the standing rule in the OCA remains that if a member of the faithful willingly (within reason, of course, life happens sometimes!) misses more than three Sunday liturgies in a row, he is excommunicate and should make confession before communing again. I would encourage you, then, to go to your parish priest (I'm assuming you'll be going to your home parish) and make confession, speak with him about all of this and give it to Christ. Again, welcome back. :)


A charitable and informative post as always. You nearly bat 1.000.

Could you give some reference for the bolded part?

Thanks.

Excuse me for stating that this is OCA policy. This is from the Ecumenical Canons. both the Apostolic Canons (Canon 9) and the Canons of Antioch (Canon 2) excommunicate those that "disdain" communion or otherwise attend the Liturgy of the Word but leave prior to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The specific canon I'm thinking of is Canon 80 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council:

"In case any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the list of the Clergy, or any layman, without any graver necessity or any particular difficulty compelling him to absent himself from his own church for a very long time, fails to attend church on Sundays for three consecutive weeks, while living in the city, if he be a Cleric, let him be deposed from office; but if he be a layman, let him be removed from Communion."

Link.

EDIT: And also, thank you for the compliment. ;D
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:38:13 PM by Benjamin the Red »
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2011, 10:23:05 PM »
That said, I believe that the standing rule in the OCA remains that if a member of the faithful willingly (within reason, of course, life happens sometimes!) misses more than three Sunday liturgies in a row, he is excommunicate and should make confession before communing again. I would encourage you, then, to go to your parish priest (I'm assuming you'll be going to your home parish) and make confession, speak with him about all of this and give it to Christ. Again, welcome back. :)


A charitable and informative post as always. You nearly bat 1.000.

Could you give some reference for the bolded part?

Thanks.
I like Ben's posts...
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2011, 10:32:15 PM »
That said, I believe that the standing rule in the OCA remains that if a member of the faithful willingly (within reason, of course, life happens sometimes!) misses more than three Sunday liturgies in a row, he is excommunicate and should make confession before communing again. I would encourage you, then, to go to your parish priest (I'm assuming you'll be going to your home parish) and make confession, speak with him about all of this and give it to Christ. Again, welcome back. :)


A charitable and informative post as always. You nearly bat 1.000.

Could you give some reference for the bolded part?

Thanks.
I like Ben's posts...


Aww, shucks, guys... :-[
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 09:44:07 AM »
Actually my parish priest told me that it was three Sundays...
but maybe that was pastoral counseling!
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline JR

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 10:00:18 AM »
It is the same with the RCC, they say it is a mortal sin to intentionally miss mass.
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Offline gzt

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 10:15:36 AM »
Which came first? Having doubts about your faith or ceasing to come to liturgy? I would recommend that, if you do consider converting from Orthodoxy, you refrain from giving it serious consideration while you are not regularly attending. These aren't light things and I think you owe it to yourself to give it a shot before leaving.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 10:24:01 AM »
So, by missing three Sundays in a row you have already incurred the wrath of the Almighty God, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul and of a few of our posters here .

Offline JR

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 10:31:40 AM »
The best thing to do is go and see your priest, talk it over with him including your doubts and what is really troubling you, start going back to the Divine liturgy and pray about this.

God is a forgiving God, and god will understand the doubts that you have, we all have them.

But just make sure you stay in communion with God at all times.

I shall pray for you.

in Christ

JR
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 12:41:34 PM »
Just spitballing here, but might not the reason behind the "miss three Sundays" rule be more a recognition that if someone is absent, without a good reason, (traveling, illness or what-have-you) then something is awry in their spiritual life?
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 12:50:17 PM »
Just spitballing here, but might not the reason behind the "miss three Sundays" rule be more a recognition that if someone is absent, without a good reason, (traveling, illness or what-have-you) then something is awry in their spiritual life?

Yes, I believe so.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the "wrath of God" as augustin said. I find that entirely unOrthodox.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 01:22:29 PM »
Kevin, please go to confession with a trusted Orthodox spiritual father. Spiritual help is best obtained from a spiritual father, not the Internet.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 01:24:09 PM »
Kevin, please go to confession with a trusted Orthodox spiritual father. Spiritual help is best obtained from a spiritual father, not the Internet.

Now you tell me . . .
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline JR

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 02:19:20 PM »
Kevin, please go to confession with a trusted Orthodox spiritual father. Spiritual help is best obtained from a spiritual father, not the Internet.

This is good advice, go for it...
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2011, 03:06:45 PM »
Kevin, please go to confession with a trusted Orthodox spiritual father. Spiritual help is best obtained from a spiritual father, not the Internet.

This is good advice, go for it...
Good advice that we all should take!
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2011, 03:16:58 PM »
Kevin, please go to confession with a trusted Orthodox spiritual father. Spiritual help is best obtained from a spiritual father, not the Internet.

This is good advice, go for it...
Good advice that we all should take!

Then I don't want to see another post relevant to Orthodoxy asked by any suggesting such a thing or acknowledging such is good advice.

You hurt the internetz's feelings.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2011, 03:20:12 PM »
Maybe I'm just jellz that I can't participate in 90% of the conversations on teh internetz.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline JR

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 03:22:02 PM »
Maybe I'm just jellz that I can't participate in 90% of the conversations on teh internetz.

Why??
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2011, 03:36:02 PM »
Maybe I'm just jellz that I can't participate in 90% of the conversations on teh internetz.

Why??
Don't know enough.  :P
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2011, 03:39:22 PM »
Maybe I'm just jellz that I can't participate in 90% of the conversations on teh internetz.

Why??
Don't know enough.  :P

In this case, ignorance is truly bliss.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2011, 03:44:11 PM »
Maybe I'm just jellz that I can't participate in 90% of the conversations on teh internetz.

Why??
Don't know enough.  :P

That's hardly stopped others here. (Although those who know they don't know enough and keep silence are more advanced in wisdom than those who know they don't know enough and speak. And then there are those who don't know they don't know enough and presume to pontificate anyway. The Internet is full of functionally insane.)
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 03:47:06 PM »
Maybe I'm just jellz that I can't participate in 90% of the conversations on teh internetz.

Why??
Don't know enough.  :P

That's hardly stopped others here. (Although those who know they don't know enough and keep silence are more advanced in wisdom than those who know they don't know enough and speak. And then there are those who don't know they don't know enough and presume to pontificate anyway. The Internet is full of functionally insane.)

That is what is called sophistry!

And don't you dare call me functional. That could mess with my SSDI.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline kevjminn

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Re: Guilty as charged
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2011, 09:31:00 PM »
Kevin, please go to confession with a trusted Orthodox spiritual father. Spiritual help is best obtained from a spiritual father, not the Internet.


I agree. I'm going to vespers tomorrow at a new Church due to commuting issues. Hopefully I have the strength to confess and speak about it. It's going to be hard considering I haven't really developed a relationship with him yet. But my plan is to do it tomorrow and letting it go. I know Orthodoxy is the true faith. It's funny... I look forward to confession, but the closer it gets I become more anxious. Once it's done I feel humbled and ready to go. Thanks for all of the replies.  :)