Dearest to Christ Stavro,
As for myself, I did not ridicule your comments in any way and do not intend to do so.
Forgive me my brother it seems I was mislead by the way I took your comment. The error is mine.
It is unacceptable for me as well to change the Faith to include ideas like the one you defended.
That would not imply a change,.. To exclude it is changing the Faith. Orthodox Tradition knows both theologoumena, the endless duration of the hellish-torments as well as the apocatastasis (implying an end to these sufferings). Tho a great majority assume the former position, a small minority (myself included) embrace the apocatastasis as a theologoumenon.
It was NOT in the liturgy.
By your own admission that it is in the "the prayer of kneeling" sung at Pentecost (admitted once a year, but no less Liturgical for it; in fact it is precisely Liturgical and it confessess to the Faith of the Church undefiled and unchanged), it is.
It is unacceptable for me also to misinterpret the Bible and falsely claim such ideas as Salvation after Hell to be part of the Tradition.
To misrepresent, misquote, and to make false claims are equally unacceptable to me. I, nor the Fathers in whose company my soul is educated, have done this is suggesting a 'final restoration' (apocatastasis).
Good luck in your prayers. May the Lord save (through your mighty prayers) Arius, Nestorius ........
Only the prayers of the righteous are mighty Stavro. I appreciate your high esteem of my attempts to prayer, but I assure you they are mere attempts at it, I am still learning to pray.
Thanks for the discussion.
t also shows how far apart OO and others are. There are Questions other than Christology that needs to be addressed like "EO Purgatory" (purged by prayers) and so on.
The EO, in general do not
[/i] share my views concerning the final restoration. The EO merely allow softies, such as myself to hope and pray for the salvation of all. Prayer for those in hades do not
imply universalism. Even the majority of EO's who disagree with my views concerning the final restoration, will agree with me in praying for the dead.
"But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which - even though they have repented of them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe must eb cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all been handed down to us).
All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them. with cooperation of the Divine Goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysios the Great (the Aereopagite) says in the 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' ( in The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy
, VII, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives - and that completely - or lightens the responsibility for them until that final Judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by the gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleanes only by the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be.
And so we, entreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from thoise torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever.
Remission of sins is given in three forms and at different times: 1) during Baptism: 2) after Baptism, through conversion and sorrow making up (for sins) by good works in the present life: and 3) after death, through prayers and good deeds and tahnks to whatever else the Church does for the dead.
The first remission of sins is distinguished from the last by this; that the first is a remission of all sins in an equal degree, while the last is a remission only of those sins which are not mortal and over which a person has repented in life."St. Mark of Ephesus
"First Homily : Refutation of the Latin Chapters concerning Purgatorial Fire"
St. Mark is quite strongly opposed to the idea of apokatastasis, he goes so far as to suggest that St. Gregory of Nyssa's writngs (where this theologoumenon is abundently present) might have been counterfitted by 'Origenists' which serves to show that prayers for those in hades are not supportive of purgatory, rather it is based upon the rejection of purgatory.