Topic: Who is the Greatest and most Authoritative Church Father of All Time?!

[Severian]

^Ignore him, let's get back on topic, please.

[Volnutt]

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

[Severian]

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

I am not EO, but I would doubt it.

[LBK]

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

No, not at all.

[Volnutt]

Yeah, I didn't think so. I think I saw that in an encyclopedia.

[JamesRottnek]

I wish we had writings of Saint Nicholas of Myra. He must have had a fascinating mind.

Agreed

[ialmisry]

Yeah, I didn't think so. I think I saw that in an encyclopedia.

yeah, it is often asserted, especially by those who need to have the Patristic Age a thing of the past rather than a living reality.

[akimori makoto]

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

No, not at all.

As I understand things, the age of the Fathers is never at a close.

[Severian]

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

No, not at all.

As I understand things, the age of the Fathers is never at a close.

Yep. To say that the patristic age has passed and that there can be no more Fathers is like saying the Holy Spirit has left the Church.

[Volnutt]

Yeah, I didn't think so. I think I saw that in an encyclopedia.

yeah, it is often asserted, especially by those who need to have the Patristic Age a thing of the past rather than a living reality.

mm.

I said Saint Silouan of Athos is definitely one modern Father.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

[Severian]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

[NicholasMyra]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

A bit of irony there.

But is it not true?

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

I haven't been able to find it for sale anywhere yet.

[Kasatkin fan]

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

A bit of irony there.

But is it not true?

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

I haven't been able to find it for sale anywhere yet.

It is true and a shame for Origen and a misfortune on the part the strife between his "followers" and the Church.

Nearly every Orthodox "thinker" I've ask on the side about Origen and if he shudda been treated the way he was or perhaps canonized, the answer is always never anathematized and some think he ought to have canonized, but always with a wince.

He was a REAL Confessor. What he went through for not dening the faith is amazing. They wouldn't let him die. Just harm him enough to do it again over years.

And if you actually read his works, he had the misfortune of:

Too much time.
Too much parchment.
Too many brain cells.
Too great a willingness to "speculate or think aloud" with a buncha caveats people later ignored.

I do think his treatment is a tragedy.

It is no joke when I say I pray for him.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3

[orthonorm]

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.

God the Father in that case.

[Kasatkin fan]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3

I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3

I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

I want to believe, cause he is going into my icon corner if you are correct, but:

Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned at the Synod of Constantinople (543) by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Anathemas_.28544.2C_553.29

I believe most are of the same mind on this issue who I read, see, etc.

Origen got a raw deal and we are INCREDIBLY indebted to him.

Please do show me that the Church did not officially condemn the man.

I would appreciate it.

[akimori makoto]

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.

[Volnutt]

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.

In what way?

[LBK]

Sorry to burst your bubble, orthonorm:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

All official proclamations from the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

[orthonorm]

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.

Care to elaborate? Sounds interesting.

[akimori makoto]

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.

In what way?

Just in short ...

At that time, I was led to the conclusion, from observing popular culture and even the practices of my family, that Christianity was an unsophisticated and stupid religion, founded on meaningless thou-shalt-nots.

Origen "rescued" Christianity for me by showing me that the authority of the Most Holy Scriptures can be affirmed while interpreting them in a manner worthy of God's majesty. Of course, I could have been led to the same realisation by the Fathers of the Church, but at that time I didn't have any interest in such persons -- Origen being much trendier for not having the word "saint" in front of his name.

My own experience has made me a passionate believer that young people who show signs of intellectual sophistication must be made to see that Christianity is much more than "bible stories" as early as possible.

[Kasatkin fan]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3

I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

I want to believe, cause he is going into my icon corner if you are correct, but:

Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned at the Synod of Constantinople (543) by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Anathemas_.28544.2C_553.29

I believe most are of the same mind on this issue who I read, see, etc.

Origen got a raw deal and we are INCREDIBLY indebted to him.

Please do show me that the Church did not officially condemn the man.

I would appreciate it.

There really is no way to show he was not condemned without reading every single last document of the Church, and I am going on recollection here. Certain aspects of his belief in apocotostasis were anathematised (such as reincarnation), but I don't ever recall seeing anything that specifically says he himself was anathema.

[orthonorm]

Origen being much trendier for not having the word "saint" in from of his name.

Wow, when I renounced Christianity, I killed a cat or something in offering to the moon.

You go and read Origen.

No wonder my life has taken the route it has.

I blame it on my church though. Laodicean was about the worst thing you could be called.

No half measures.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3

I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

I want to believe, cause he is going into my icon corner if you are correct, but:

Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned at the Synod of Constantinople (543) by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Anathemas_.28544.2C_553.29

I believe most are of the same mind on this issue who I read, see, etc.

Origen got a raw deal and we are INCREDIBLY indebted to him.

Please do show me that the Church did not officially condemn the man.

I would appreciate it.

There really is no way to show he was not condemned without reading every single last document of the Church, and I am going on recollection here. Certain aspects of his belief in apocotostasis were anathematised (such as reincarnation), but I don't ever recall seeing anything that specifically says he himself was anathema.

Thanks for the hope! I've just been told and read otherwise.

I am sure there is someone here who will fill us in.

In the meantime, I'll look into more of the history, as much as it pains me. I prefer reading what was written. Never big on history as such and never on geography at all, which is why Isa perplexes me often.

[LBK]

Sorry to burst your bubble, orthonorm:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

All official proclamations from the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

*BUMP*

[orthonorm]

Sorry to burst your bubble, orthonorm:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

All official proclamations from the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

*BUMP*

Hey it wasn't a bubble yet! It was just some soap hanging on that ring thing to be blown into. (Get your mind outta the gutter, you know who you are.)

Thank you. That is what I thought.

[orthonorm]

Sorry to burst your bubble, orthonorm:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

All official proclamations from the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

*BUMP*

Hey it wasn't a bubble yet! It was just some soap hanging on that ring thing to be blown into. (Get your mind outta the gutter, you know who you are.)

Thank you. That is what I thought.

BTW, I'll take your word for it, I ain't pouring over those documents. Since it seems to gibe / jibe / jive (for you illiterates //:=)) with nearly everything I have ever heard or read regarding the Confessor by those even most sympathetic to him.

[ialmisry]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

A bit of irony there.

But is it not true?

that's why it is ironic.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

A bit of irony there.

But is it not true?

that's why it is ironic.

Isa,

Show some love.

Do you think Origen got a raw deal so to speak given what we know today?

I am rallying troops to have his name put in good standing again.

That will be letter 12,352 I am sending to my Bishop upon reception into the Church.

[ialmisry]

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.

No, as St. Clement was a Church Father, as was the slightly later St. Ignatius, and the later St. Polycarp, but neither St. Ignatius nor St. Polycarp show any dependence on St. Clement: hence the independent, corroborating testimony on the teaching of the Apostles.

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

Nicholas,

In any case, thanks a ton. You have no idea how perfect this is going to be as a gift. I'll figure out someway of getting it. It will bring extreme joy to one man's life every time he looks at it.

[ialmisry]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

A bit of irony there.

But is it not true?

that's why it is ironic.

Isa,

Show some love.

Do you think Origen got a raw deal so to speak given what we know today?

I am rallying troops to have his name put in good standing again.

That will be letter 12,352 I am sending to my Bishop upon reception into the Church.

Origen's name is as good as it is going to get.

What was too heretical was destroyed, but much the Church couldn't do without, so it was edited for Orthodoxy. So his legacy was saved, but the picture of what exactly incurred the wrath of the Fifth Ecumenical Council was blurred.  He did have some strange ideas-Mormon strange-borrowed from Platonism in part: pre-existence of souls, for example.

Origen is often quoted, as the editing has made him safe.  In some areas, he was too smart for his own good, and should have stuck with the simplicity of the Church's Gospel, but he died in the Church and was not corrected (and refused it), the main force of the anathema is preventing his canonization.

[Kasatkin fan]

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.

No, as St. Clement was a Church Father, as was the slightly later St. Ignatius, and the later St. Polycarp, but neither St. Ignatius nor St. Polycarp show any dependence on St. Clement: hence the independent, corroborating testimony on the teaching of the Apostles.

I believe you might have just stumbled upon my point. 

[orthonorm]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

A bit of irony there.

But is it not true?

that's why it is ironic.

Isa,

Show some love.

Do you think Origen got a raw deal so to speak given what we know today?

I am rallying troops to have his name put in good standing again.

That will be letter 12,352 I am sending to my Bishop upon reception into the Church.

Origen's name is as good as it is going to get.

What was too heretical was destroyed, but much the Church couldn't do without, so it was edited for Orthodoxy. So his legacy was saved, but the picture of what exactly incurred the wrath of the Fifth Ecumenical Council was blurred.  He did have some strange ideas-Mormon strange-borrowed from Platonism in part: pre-existence of souls, for example.

Origen is often quoted, as the editing has made him safe.  In some areas, he was too smart for his own good, and should have stuck with the simplicity of the Church's Gospel, but he died in the Church and was not corrected (and refused it), the main force of the anathema is preventing his canonization.

Thanks. He was too smart for his own good and seems to not have be aware of what impact his more self-consciously speculative ideas might have.

Died a Confessor of extremity as I am sure you know. What is the practical upshot for us not so educated of his non-canonical status? (Everyone feel free to chime in.)

Certainly we can pray for him.

Is it kosher to have an image of him (there are images available)? Yes, I can ask my Priest and will, for everyone ready to type it.

I interested in folks' opinions.

It may sound silly, but I really have grown to have a bit of sorrow for him and respect and love. I appreciate his abilities, mourn his life, and wonder how many keep him in their prayers.

I mean my mother was by no means a Saint and yet I pray for her often. Have a few object I keep of hers. Etc.

Is there a difference?

I wouldn't put the image above in an icon corner . . . That would be ridiculous. But an image, card or the like somewhere.

Heck, I do read the guy after all.

Thanks.

[NicholasMyra]

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

Nicholas,

In any case, thanks a ton. You have no idea how perfect this is going to be as a gift. I'll figure out someway of getting it. It will bring extreme joy to one man's life every time he looks at it.

You're welcome.

From my understanding the anathemas against "Origenism" are much more confirmed authentic historically than against Origen himself. The whole thing is a bit muddled.

But now that there are no more Origenites, I'm sure his case is technically fixable. The Church allowed the Montanists to keep their martyrs after they repented, for example.

If the Russians can saint Joseph Volotsky, the Greeks should be able to saint Origen. Why not?

[Cavaradossi]

So since we mentioned St. Athanasius, what about St. Cyril of Alexandria? Anybody whose Christology was so influential as to have both sides of a schism claiming to accurately represent it has to be pretty authoritative, at least when Christology is concerned.

[Irish Hermit]

Is there any doubt...?

[LBK]

Is there any doubt...?

 

[Irish Hermit]

Is there any doubt...?

 

The only one of the Saints to be given the thirteenth throne alongside the 12 Apostles, to judge the people of Ireland.

[Irish Hermit]

Is there any doubt...?

The Judgement of the Irish

[....] Patrick asks that on the Day of Judgement he, himself, should judge the
people of Ireland.  The Angel tellS him that assuredly that blessing
cannot be obtained from the Lord.  "Unless it is got from Him," Patrick
says to the Angel, " there is no leaving the reek before Doomsday."

The Angel goes back to Heaven.  Patrick celebrates the Offering
(Eucharist.) The Angel returns at the ninth hour to relay to Patrick
God's message.  It is that, after the twelve Apostles, there would be no
man more admirable than he, were it not for his obstinacy, but that
nevertheless he may have what he asked for.  Patrick is to strike his
bell;  the people of Ireland living and dead will be consecrated to him,
at which Patrick exclaims,
        "Blessed be the bountiful King who has
        bestowed this;  now shall there be a
        departure from the reek."                   

         The End, and Glory be to our God!

Extract ::  "How Saint Patrick Spent Lent in the Year 439 AD"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2951

[Severian]

So since we mentioned St. Athanasius, what about St. Cyril of Alexandria? Anybody whose Christology was so influential as to have both sides of a schism claiming to accurately represent it has to be pretty authoritative, at least when Christology is concerned.

I would definitely argue that he is up on the list of most influential Fathers of all time.

[akimori makoto]

So since we mentioned St. Athanasius, what about St. Cyril of Alexandria? Anybody whose Christology was so influential as to have both sides of a schism claiming to accurately represent it has to be pretty authoritative, at least when Christology is concerned.

I would definitely argue that he is up on the list of most influential Fathers of all time.

Severian, where did you get your custom title underneath your name? It is somewhat appropriate, haha.