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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« on: July 31, 2006, 06:33:26 PM »

As we watch the news about the Middle East. We can see that the ending of time is on it's way by all the fighting that is going on in the Middle East. Soon we will be seeing the anti-Christ making his move as his time is coming. all of this is coming true by the Prophesies handed to us through the old testment and the New testment which we read in Revelation
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2006, 06:50:22 PM »

End of Times

So is it the New York Times or the Los Angeles Times that's going under?
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2006, 06:55:43 PM »

neither.
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2006, 07:03:48 PM »

If the world is going to end every time there was trouble in the Middle East, then the world has been ending since the sixth century.......
And there have been many Antichrists already- one major one being responsible for the turmoil in the middle East since the sixth century.......
Our Lord Jesus Christ said: "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:6)
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2006, 07:08:54 PM »

As we watch the news about the Middle East. We can see that the ending of time is on it's way by all the fighting that is going on in the Middle East. Soon we will be seeing the anti-Christ making his move as his time is coming. all of this is coming true by the Prophesies handed to us through the old testment and the New testment which we read in Revelation

Put the copy of Left Behind on the floor and back away slowly...
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2006, 07:29:42 PM »

And there have been many Antichrists already- one major one being responsible for the turmoil in the middle East since the sixth century.......


The U.K is a major anti-christ? I woulda never thought...  Cheesy  What would Her Majesty say?

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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2006, 07:52:21 PM »

What would Her Majesty say?

"Rule Brittania!
Brittania rule the waves!
Britons never never never
Shall be slaves!....[Ed:...just everyone else]"
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2006, 08:30:40 PM »

Let's remember that only He knows when the end will come. I can't think of the exact verse but somewhere it does say that only Christ knows the date of his return and it's not for man to know or to guess.
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2006, 08:43:42 PM »

Funny that the Disciples thought that His return was imminent. Sounds like they got fooled too.
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2006, 09:06:02 PM »

Let's remember that only He knows when the end will come. I can't think of the exact verse but somewhere it does say that only Christ knows the date of his return and it's not for man to know or to guess.
Actually the quote is
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."  Matt 24:36
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2006, 09:15:04 PM »

Put the copy of Left Behind on the floor and back away slowly...
Has anyone here ever read the book(s)?  A "born-again" friend lent me his copy of the 1st book in the series and I read about a quarter of it before a severe bout of nausea and vomiting began. Grin
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2006, 09:17:33 PM »

Actually the quote is
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."ÂÂ  Matt 24:36

But if the Son did not know, and the Son was supposedly God, then how could the Son not know?

Sounds like a good argument for Nestorianism.
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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2006, 09:31:28 PM »

Has anyone here ever read the book(s)?ÂÂ  A "born-again" friend lent me his copy of the 1st book in the series and I read about a quarter of it before a severe bout of nausea and vomiting began. Grin

A girl I dated in high school wanted me to read them, so I slogged through a few of them.  Not only were the characters unbelievably shallow, the authors seemed to take a perverse pleasure in killing off the world at large.  Those books are the epitome of everything not to do when writing. Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2006, 09:59:24 PM »

Sometimes I wonder how much of our understanding of the end times is actually scriptural and how much of it is simply hollywood sensationalism. For example it would be interesting to note that the antichrist is not mentioned at all in the book of Revelation but what is mentioned and probably confused with the antichrist is the beast whose number is 666. Actually, the epistles of John are the only books of the Bible to mention the antichrist and even there it seems to be used as a generic reference to those who are opposed to Christ or Christian teaching.

Quote
But if the Son did not know, and the Son was supposedly God, then how could the Son not know.

Sounds like a good argument for Nestorianism.

Jesus is simply saying here that such knowledge is beyond humanity and dwells in the infinte wisdom of God, as such, to paraphrase St Gregory the Great, the Son of man while He does not know it from His human nature He does know it in His human nature as the God-man.
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2006, 11:25:33 PM »

Quote
But if the Son did not know, and the Son was supposedly God, then how could the Son not know? Sounds like a good argument for Nestorianism.

Or agnosticism Wink

But it is certainly true that the Apostles were fooled. I mean, you could give alternate interpretations of the various NT passages which indicate that they expected that the end was literally near; but apart from being a completely forced, eisegetical interpretation, it would also ignore the witness of Church history, for many other Christians (e.g., St. Maximos the Confessor) also thought that their own time was the literal end time.
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2006, 11:29:34 PM »

But if the Son did not know, and the Son was supposedly God, then how could the Son not know?

Sounds like a good argument for Nestorianism.

Or we could simply admit that Matthew had a worse understanding of Christ and Christology than most the other authors of the New Testament. Throughout his Gospel we can see attempts by Matthew to fit Christ into his Jewish world-view...not that other New Testament authors arn't guilty of this but Matthew is far worse than most.
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2006, 12:09:37 AM »

Has anyone here ever read the book(s)?ÂÂ  A "born-again" friend lent me his copy of the 1st book in the series and I read about a quarter of it before a severe bout of nausea and vomiting began. Grin

I've read all of them except for the last one.  It's not a bad fiction story, but when it waxes theological, I just start to laugh.  Man, did those guys really get it wrong!  The inevitability of not having the Church as guide, I suppose.

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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2006, 12:43:38 AM »

Who knows if we are living in the end times or not?  My own thoughts - I tend to think we are, so hasten to work at my salvation or the more.  But in general, the only thing we can know about the end times are what Jesus Christ told us in various Scriptures, including Matthew 24:37-39 (KJV):  "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

And what were the days of Noah like? Read from the beginning of Adam and Eve up until Genesis 6 ...

Genesis 6:5-6; 11-12 - "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart....The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

Look at the world around us now and it will hit you!  You'll see the harsh reality of the world's lack of conscience towards everything that's moral ... and I don't need to list everything for you.  How bad could Noah's days have been, if we think our days are bad!!!??? 

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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2006, 09:18:29 AM »

Who knows if we are living in the end times or not?ÂÂ  My own thoughts - I tend to think we are, so hasten to work at my salvation or the more.ÂÂ  But in general, the only thing we can know about the end times are what Jesus Christ told us in various Scriptures, including Matthew 24:37-39 (KJV):ÂÂ  "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.ÂÂ  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

And what were the days of Noah like? Read from the beginning of Adam and Eve up until Genesis 6 ...

Genesis 6:5-6; 11-12 - "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart....The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.ÂÂ  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

Look at the world around us now and it will hit you!ÂÂ  You'll see the harsh reality of the world's lack of conscience towards everything that's moral ... and I don't need to list everything for you.ÂÂ  How bad could Noah's days have been, if we think our days are bad!!!???ÂÂ  


I think we have to look further in this passage because Genesis 8:20-22 says:
 20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

 22 "As long as the earth endures,
       seedtime and harvest,
       cold and heat,
       summer and winter,
       day and night
       will never cease."

-Nick
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2006, 09:38:37 AM »

Funny that the Disciples thought that His return was imminent. Sounds like they got fooled too.
Perhaps this was deliberate.
If Christ were to tell the Disciples that the world would continue for at least 2300 years, then the Church would have produced no Saints until the last six months of time since we would all fall into spiritual laxity and laziness with no sense of urgency.

But if the Son did not know, and the Son was supposedly God, then how could the Son not know?

Sounds like a good argument for Nestorianism.

Or, perhaps the Son does know but seeks to stop the inquiry of His friends....
think about it this way: a toddler sees a cigarette lighter on the table and goes to play with it. His father sees this and quickly grabs the cigarette lighter and hides it in his pocket. The toddler begins to cry and seek the object from the Father who holds out his hands and says "I don't know where it is". In the same way, Christ, Who had such an intimate relationship with His Disciples, did not want His Disciples to think that He disdains their friendship, and if He were to say "I know, but I'm not going to tell you", then the questions would arise in the Disciple's minds:
"What else do you know that you are not telling us?",
or
"Since you spoke in Parables, perhaps you have secretly told us when the end will come in a coded way that we have to work out..."
or
"You call us 'friends', yet you have no Faith in us as we have in You...."
Christ knows but does not want to tell the disciples for their own good, so like the Father with the cigarette lighter, He tells them "I don't have it" so that (a) they stop asking and seeking to know, and (b) to acheive this in a way which does no damage to their relationship.
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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2006, 02:35:28 PM »



Or, perhaps the Son does know but seeks to stop the inquiry of His friends....
think about it this way: a toddler sees a cigarette lighter on the table and goes to play with it. His father sees this and quickly grabs the cigarette lighter and hides it in his pocket. The toddler begins to cry and seek the object from the Father who holds out his hands and says "I don't know where it is".

 In the same way, Christ, Who had such an intimate relationship with His Disciples, did not want His Disciples to think that He disdains their friendship
 

This would be a blatant lie and a sin which would mean that Christ committed a sin, which we all know He did not. So if He said He didn't know, He really didn't know.
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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2006, 03:36:25 PM »

If Christ were to tell the Disciples that the world would continue for at least 2300 years, then the Church would have produced no Saints until the last six months of time since we would all fall into spiritual laxity and laziness with no sense of urgency.

So essentially the implosion of the universe will occur long before the Western Churches including the RC ever be in communion. I think this is facetious in the essence that God being everywhere now then ever before. In persecution since the time of God's hands will be proven in the Church:  “By their fruits ye shall know them.”(Mt. 7:16)

The church would would likely have a resurgence of Holy Saints preferably in minority countries in Asia Pacific. (though the churches in China have not had any problems with the government as of recent years. Japan is more secular that religiously Shinto and Indonesia has a small number of Christians which is problematic if they increase. More likely the number of governments in Europe, Asia, East Africa and South America that increase the levels of persecutions at the same time would than be a sign that not only should the Patriarchal Churches have to appeal to the Governmental courts but those mother churches would be caught in the crossfire for defending the autonomous churches.
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2006, 03:45:18 PM »

I don't think that when is really something to think on, it's more what will happen. If we take Revelations as the basis of what will happen when the world ends, we see that it isn't as simple as being here one day and not the next.
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2006, 04:18:32 PM »

I think some here are getting confused with parts of scripture that are obviously dealing with two separate 'coming' events so to speak. Christ spoke of the destruction of the temple in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and other events and 'signs' that would occur before this happens. His disciples asked when this would occur after he stormed out of the temple in Mathew 22. Christ responded that within one genration these things will come to Pass. One of the obvious 'signs' in Luke 21 that Christ told his followers would happen would be the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies (Roman armies), and to flee because they will know that the time has come. Historical records show that most of the early Christians escaped the city before the destruction occurred and fled to the hills of Pella. This happened exactly within one generation as the Roman legions entered Jerusalem and destroyed the temple & city in AD 70. So we can see that the 'coming' that Christ was referring to in Mathew 24 was a coming in 'judgement' against Israel. Here is a general synopsis of this view point, sometimes called 'partial - preterism' by some I found from Wikopedia.

--------
Partial preterism is a form of Christian eschatology that holds much in common with but is distinct from full preterism (or 'consistent' or 'hyper' preterism) in that it places the events of most of the Book of Revelation as occurring during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (and/or the Fall of Rome several centuries later) yet still affirms an orthodox future bodily return of Christ to earth at an unknown day and hour. Partial preterism sees Matthew 24, the Book of Daniel and most of the Book of Revelation (besides its last 2 or 3 chapters) as speaking about events no later than the first century AD, and about a coming of Christ in judgement not the (second, final and bodily) coming of Christ.

Most (but not all) Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. The "last days," however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the fall of Adam and Eve. Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic eucemenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ and that the phrase Second Coming means second of like kind in a series for the Scriptures record other comings even before the judgment-coming in AD70, thus eliminating that event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of the series in which the example if the earthly, physical ministry of Christ. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.

Partial preterism is consistent with Covenant theology in that its basis lies in the outworking of the covenant judgements of Deuteronomy 28 - 32 and Leviticus 26 and as such opposes Dispensational Premillennialism and Futurism popular in evangelical circles today with such works as the Left Behind series. Preterism also is distinct from Dispensational eschatology in that it does not have specific modern political directives attached (see Dispensationalism's connection to Christian Zionism).

Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.

A variant form of Partial Preterism developed within Catholic tradition that identified the woman in Revelation 12 as Mary rather than being symbolic of Israel and/or the Church in Protestant forms of Partial Preterism.

Partial Preterism relies heavily on the account of Flavius Josephus in describing the destruction of Jerusalem as a first hand account of the recorded fulfillment of the Book of Revelation.

Because of the widespread acceptance of Dispensational Futurism amongst American evangelicals, Partial Preterism is often considered unorthodox by many. Partial Preterism is also criticised for claiming that the Book of Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem sometime during the reign of Roman emperor Nero in the 60s AD rather than in 95 AD which is the widely held belief among Dispensationalists. Kenneth Gentry, a prominent Partial Preterist, wrote his PhD thesis Before Jerusalem Fell (which has since been made into a book) on a defense of placing the writing of the Book of Revelation during Nero's reign.
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2006, 05:57:43 PM »

This would be a blatant lie and a sin which would mean that Christ committed a sin, which we all know He did not. So if He said He didn't know, He really didn't know.

Would it? Perhaps it would to a Pharisee....
The Fathers didn't think so. Have a read of "The Explanation of the Gospel of St. Matthew" by Blessed Theophylact. What I said is also his exegesis of this passage.

And if what you are saying is that Christ was telling an absolute truth when He said He didn't know, then either He is not "of One Essense with the Father" (like the Arians teach), or He knows in His Divinity and not His Humanity and His Humanity and Divinity are two seperate Hypostases (like the Nestorians teach).

So then, since you disagree with Blessed Theophylact's exegesis, then what is your explanation of what you consider an "absolute truth" that the Son does not know what the Father knows?
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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2006, 09:06:53 PM »

I think some here are getting confused with parts of scripture that are obviously dealing with two separate 'coming' events so to speak. Christ spoke of the destruction of the temple in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and other events and 'signs' that would occur before this happens. His disciples asked when this would occur after he stormed out of the temple in Mathew 22. Christ responded that within one genration these things will come to Pass. One of the obvious 'signs' in Luke 21 that Christ told his followers would happen would be the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies (Roman armies), and to flee because they will know that the time has come. Historical records show that most of the early Christians escaped the city before the destruction occurred and fled to the hills of Pella. This happened exactly within one generation as the Roman legions entered Jerusalem and destroyed the temple & city in AD 70. So we can see that the 'coming' that Christ was referring to in Mathew 24 was a coming in 'judgement' against Israel. Here is a general synopsis of this view point, sometimes called 'partial - preterism' by some I found from Wikopedia.

--------
Partial preterism is a form of Christian eschatology that holds much in common with but is distinct from full preterism (or 'consistent' or 'hyper' preterism) in that it places the events of most of the Book of Revelation as occurring during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (and/or the Fall of Rome several centuries later) yet still affirms an orthodox future bodily return of Christ to earth at an unknown day and hour. Partial preterism sees Matthew 24, the Book of Daniel and most of the Book of Revelation (besides its last 2 or 3 chapters) as speaking about events no later than the first century AD, and about a coming of Christ in judgement not the (second, final and bodily) coming of Christ.

Most (but not all) Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. The "last days," however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the fall of Adam and Eve. Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic eucemenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ and that the phrase Second Coming means second of like kind in a series for the Scriptures record other comings even before the judgment-coming in AD70, thus eliminating that event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of the series in which the example if the earthly, physical ministry of Christ. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.

Partial preterism is consistent with Covenant theology in that its basis lies in the outworking of the covenant judgements of Deuteronomy 28 - 32 and Leviticus 26 and as such opposes Dispensational Premillennialism and Futurism popular in evangelical circles today with such works as the Left Behind series. Preterism also is distinct from Dispensational eschatology in that it does not have specific modern political directives attached (see Dispensationalism's connection to Christian Zionism).

Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.

A variant form of Partial Preterism developed within Catholic tradition that identified the woman in Revelation 12 as Mary rather than being symbolic of Israel and/or the Church in Protestant forms of Partial Preterism.

Partial Preterism relies heavily on the account of Flavius Josephus in describing the destruction of Jerusalem as a first hand account of the recorded fulfillment of the Book of Revelation.

Because of the widespread acceptance of Dispensational Futurism amongst American evangelicals, Partial Preterism is often considered unorthodox by many. Partial Preterism is also criticised for claiming that the Book of Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem sometime during the reign of Roman emperor Nero in the 60s AD rather than in 95 AD which is the widely held belief among Dispensationalists. Kenneth Gentry, a prominent Partial Preterist, wrote his PhD thesis Before Jerusalem Fell (which has since been made into a book) on a defense of placing the writing of the Book of Revelation during Nero's reign.

Preterism...Partial Preterism...Amillenialism...Postmillenialism...Dispensationalism Futurism... Huh

Sounds like the debates of Protestantism that I thought that I was leaving behind Huh

Does Orthodoxy have no sound consensus on the end-times Huh

Say it isn't so... :'(
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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2006, 10:32:44 PM »

From Dictionary.com:

lie
n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. 

1 and 2 would both equate to your example of a father hiding the lighter and then telling the child he doesn't know where it is.

Saying: "I don't know" is a false statement deliberately presented as being true. It also is meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. This is the clear cut definition of a lie. If we aren't going to use "legal" interpretations, then we might as well declare that we don't need to go to confession, because the 10 commandments are able to be stretched and not absolute. We also might as well throw out all of the decisions of the councils because obviously their laws can be stretched too. In the absence of law anarchy rules and that is something which can not be permitted since anarchy will ultimately organize itself into a legal system of some sort. While Christ's statement of not knowing when he did know might have been able to sneak around definition #2, it certainly would end up under definition 1 and that would classify the statement as a lie.

From Romans 7:7-13:
  7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

In Luke 10: 25-28:
 25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"

 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Why would Jesus say that following the law will give you life if the law was not to be taken as absolute?

-Nick
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2006, 06:40:10 AM »

From Dictionary.com:
I sure hope God wont be judging us on the Last Day according to Webster's Dictionary...... my spelling is atrocious....Wink

But, just in case:

From Dictionary.com:


Nes·to·ri·an
  Pronunciation Key  (n-stôr-n, -str-)
adj.   1. Of or relating to the theological doctrine, declared heretical in 431, that within Jesus are two distinct persons, divine and human, rather than a single divine person. [Ed: Whoops.  I think they meant to say "a single fully divine and fully human Person". Perhaps we can't base our Faith on dictionary.com after all... Wink]


Ar·i·an·ism    Pronunciation Key  (âr--nzm, r-)
n.   The doctrines of Arius, denying that Jesus was of the same substance as God and holding instead that he was only the highest of created beings, viewed as heretical by most Christian churches.

n : heretical doctrine taught by Arius that asserted the radical primacy of the Father over the Son [syn: Arianism] [ant: Athanasianism]
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2006, 09:19:06 AM »

I sure hope God wont be judging us on the Last Day according to Webster's Dictionary...... my spelling is atrocious....Wink

But, just in case:

From Dictionary.com:


Nes·to·ri·an
ÂÂ  Pronunciation KeyÂÂ  (n-stôr-n, -str-)
adj.  ÃƒÆ’‚ 1. Of or relating to the theological doctrine, declared heretical in 431, that within Jesus are two distinct persons, divine and human, rather than a single divine person. [Ed: Whoops.  I think they meant to say "a single fully divine and fully human Person". Perhaps we can't base our Faith on dictionary.com after all... Wink]


Ar·i·an·ism   ÃƒÆ’‚ Pronunciation Key  (âr--nzm, r-)
n.  ÃƒÆ’‚ The doctrines of Arius, denying that Jesus was of the same substance as God and holding instead that he was only the highest of created beings, viewed as heretical by most Christian churches.

n : heretical doctrine taught by Arius that asserted the radical primacy of the Father over the Son [syn: Arianism] [ant: Athanasianism]

Well, if we're judged based on websters dictionary, I'm pretty sure most of us are not going to be in heaven  Grin I don't know a noun from a verb so I have no chance.

As for the rest, I agree that you are right on when you're talking about Arianism and Nestorianism, I guess the thing I was trying to do was comprehend the example of the child with the lighter. I also want to thank you for the book recommendation, I've started the first couple pages and its not too bad.  Smiley

-Nick
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2006, 12:09:57 PM »

Reminder to all, "The end of times" does not mean the "end of the world," but a change, a new beginning under Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace.

As the new testament states.... "God the Father knows the time and not even the  Son...." Also, "Be prepared, I come like a thief in the night." So prepare, in prayers, fasting, forgiveness, love, kindness to all people of religion, faith and colour with no judgment.

Live your lives and do not think of tomorrow but live for the moment under God.

I pray for peace.

In Christ,
Hadel

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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2006, 05:29:29 PM »

Perhaps this was deliberate.
If Christ were to tell the Disciples that the world would continue for at least 2300 years, then the Church would have produced no Saints until the last six months of time since we would all fall into spiritual laxity and laziness with no sense of urgency.

Or, perhaps the Son does know but seeks to stop the inquiry of His friends....
think about it this way: a toddler sees a cigarette lighter on the table and goes to play with it. His father sees this and quickly grabs the cigarette lighter and hides it in his pocket. The toddler begins to cry and seek the object from the Father who holds out his hands and says "I don't know where it is". In the same way, Christ, Who had such an intimate relationship with His Disciples, did not want His Disciples to think that He disdains their friendship, and if He were to say "I know, but I'm not going to tell you", then the questions would arise in the Disciple's minds:
"What else do you know that you are not telling us?",
or
"Since you spoke in Parables, perhaps you have secretly told us when the end will come in a coded way that we have to work out..."
or
"You call us 'friends', yet you have no Faith in us as we have in You...."
Christ knows but does not want to tell the disciples for their own good, so like the Father with the cigarette lighter, He tells them "I don't have it" so that (a) they stop asking and seeking to know, and (b) to acheive this in a way which does no damage to their relationship.



I can testify that parents DO practice this.
Makes sense to me!
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2006, 08:03:06 PM »

Preterism...Partial Preterism...Amillenialism...Postmillenialism...Dispensationalism Futurism... Huh
Sounds like the debates of Protestantism that I thought that I was leaving behind Huh
Does Orthodoxy have no sound consensus on the end-times Huh
Say it isn't so... :'(
Sorry, it's so.
As the Prayerbook I used during my youth listed under the "Four Last Things":
1) Death
2) Judgment
3) The Kingdom of Heaven
4) Hell eternal.
That's the only consensus you'll find!
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2006, 08:34:47 PM »

Sorry, it's so.
As the Prayerbook I used during my youth listed under the "Four Last Things":
1) Death
2) Judgment
3) The Kingdom of Heaven
4) Hell eternal.
That's the only consensus you'll find!

Is it safe to say that the Church's position is 'we don't exactly know'?

I'd call that a good answer... Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2006, 09:09:14 PM »

Is it safe to say that the Church's position is 'we don't exactly know'?
I don't know if that is the best way to phrase it - I'm sure someone here will argue with the idea of the church taking a position of not exactly knowing.  I think a better way of looking at it is:
Jesus said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."  (Matt 24:36)  Since only the Father knows, it isn't for us to know or even speculate about.
Being raised Orthodox, I 've always had a hard time understanding why American Protestants were so concerned about the end times.
I was raised to live each day as if it would be my last.  Growing up, we had a rule in my house that if there was any disagreement or argument during the day that it was resolved before evening prayers with an apology, an "I love you", and a kiss.  Only then could we say our prayers.  My father's reasoning behind this was so that if our night's sleep should turn into the sleep of death, at least at the judgment, we would not be accused of the sin of anger.
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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2006, 09:23:43 PM »

I don't know if that is the best way to phrase it - I'm sure someone here will argue with the idea of the church taking a position of not exactly knowing.  I think a better way of looking at it is:
Jesus said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."  (Matt 24:36)  Since only the Father knows, it isn't for us to know or even speculate about.

Thank You, that is exactly the answer I was hoping for...

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."  (Matt 24:36) 
(italics mine)

...those words are so sweet...ignorance can be bliss Smiley


Being raised Orthodox, I 've always had a hard time understanding why American Protestants were so concerned about the end times.
I was raised to live each day as if it would be my last.  Growing up, we had a rule in my house that if there was any disagreement or argument during the day that it was resolved before evening prayers with an apology, an "I love you", and a kiss.  Only then could we say our prayers.  My father's reasoning behind this was so that if our night's sleep should turn into the sleep of death, at least at the judgment, we would not be accused of the sin of anger.

You were very fortunate  Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2006, 09:55:29 PM »

But if the Son did not know, and the Son was supposedly God, then how could the Son not know?

Sounds like a good argument for Nestorianism.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One; God's Name is "YHWH"-- "I Am", not "We Are".
When Our Lord Jesus says that the Son does not know the time of His  Total Manifestation in Glory at the consummation of the universe, He meant in His human nature.  He is One Person (God the Son) in 2 natures: Divine and human , "not mingled nor separated".  In His human life on this earth, in His human nature, Jesus was not all-knowing nor all-powerful; that wouldn't be human.  ÃƒÆ’‚  He was not  God in a human body; He is God with a human soul and body. He was not pretending to be human.  He is God become man, God as man, Love as man, crucified by us and for us, atoning for our evil , our hatred of Him and each other, cleansing us.  He re-united His human soul and body in His glorious Resurrection, restoring His human nature to the original pre-fallen state, restoring our human nature in His.

We all need to reflect more upon the Incarnation: God became human, God became a human man, God became a Jewish human man.ÂÂ  Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ) of Nazareth is God-Man.
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« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2006, 11:23:54 PM »

The way it was explained to me is that we are in the last days before the "Ages of Ages" and that we live through that end times whether we survive to see its conclusions or not.  We should live our lives as if it is our last day and judgement is the next day.

In Christ,
Thomas
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2006, 03:17:36 PM »

Or we could simply admit that Matthew had a worse understanding of Christ and Christology than most the other authors of the New Testament. Throughout his Gospel we can see attempts by Matthew to fit Christ into his Jewish world-view...not that other New Testament authors arn't guilty of this but Matthew is far worse than most.

I don't want to hijack the thread so please forgive me this one post and perhaps a response. This is an interesting statement posted above.  I actually got introduced to Orthodoxy from a deacon of the Armenian Orthodox Church who believed that the Jewish authored books in the NT were written to mostly proselytize Jews.  This guy also doubted that Christ was the expected Messiah of the OT amongst other unique ideas.   

Is this a common view amongst Armenian Orthodox or is this just one man who happens to like Marcion's outlook?    I remember reading a comment made somewhere by - I think - a monk that there is what the outer Church believes and then there is what is whispered amongst ourselves. 
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2011, 07:34:35 AM »

Sorry, hit the wrong button.  Embarrassed
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