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Author Topic: Who is the Greatest and most Authoritative Church Father of All Time?!  (Read 3995 times) Average Rating: 0
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Severian
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« on: August 24, 2011, 11:29:35 AM »

This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!), but who do you think is the greatest and most authoritative Church Father (or fathers) in the history of Christianity? Please give a short explanation why you think the way you do.
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 11:41:12 AM »

This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!), but who do you think is the greatest and most authoritative Church Father (or fathers) in the history of Christianity? Please give a short explanation why you think the way you do.

Jesus Christ?
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 11:50:52 AM »

This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!), but who do you think is the greatest and most authoritative Church Father (or fathers) in the history of Christianity? Please give a short explanation why you think the way you do.

Jesus Christ?
short explanation:

Quote
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 11:55:04 AM »

This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!), but who do you think is the greatest and most authoritative Church Father (or fathers) in the history of Christianity? Please give a short explanation why you think the way you do.

The Three Holy Hierarchs

During the reign of the Emperor Alexius Comnenus (1081-1118), a controversy arose in Constantinople among men learned in Faith and zealous for virtue about the three holy Hierarchs and Fathers of the Church, Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and John Chrysostom. Some argued for Saint Basil above the other two because he was able, as none other, to explain the mysteries of the Faith, and rose to angelic rank by his virtues. Organizer of monastic life, leader of the entire Church in the struggle with heresy, austere and demanding shepherd as to Christian morals, in him there was nothing base or of the earth. Hence, said they, he was superior to Saint Chrysostom who was by nature more easily inclined to absolve sinners.

The partisans of Saint Chrysostom retorted that the illustrious Archbishop of Constantinople had been no less zealous than Saint Basil in combating vices, in bringing sinners to repentance and in raising up the whole people to the perfection of the Gospel. The golden-mouthed shepherd of matchless eloquence has watered the Church with a stream of homilies in which he interprets the divine word and shows its application in daily life with more accomplished mastery than the two other holy Doctors.

According to a third group, Saint Gregory the Theologian was to be preferred to the others by reason of the majesty, purity and profundity of his language. Possessing a sovereign mastery of all the wisdom and eloquence of ancient Greece, he had attained, they said to such a pitch in the contemplation of God that no one had been able to express the dogma of the Holy Trinity as perfectly as he.

With each faction setting up one of the Fathers against the other two in this way, the whole Christian people were soon caught up in the dispute, which far from promoting devotion to the Saints in the City, resulted in nothing but ill-feeling and endless argument. Then one night the three holy Hierarchs appeared in a dream to Saint John Mauropus, the Metropolitan of Euchaïta (5 Oct.), separately at first, then together and, speaking with a single voice, they said: “As you see, the three of us are with God and no discord or rivalry divides us. Each of us, according to the circumstances and according to the inspiration that he received from the Holy Spirit, wrote and taught what befits the salvation of mankind. There is not among us a first, a second or a third, and if you invoke one of us the other two are immediately present with him. Therefore, tell those who are quarrelling not to create divisions in the Church because of us, for when we were on earth we spared no effort to re-establish unity and concord in the world. You can conjoin our three commemorations in one feast and compose a service for it, inserting the hymns dedicated to each of us according to the skill and knowledge that God has given you. Then transmit it to the Christians with the command to celebrate it each year. If they honor us thus as being with and in God, we give them our word that we will intercede for their salvation in our common prayer.” At these words, the Saints were taken up into heaven in a boundless light while conversing with one another by name.

Saint John immediately assembled the people and informed them of this revelation. As he was respected by all for his virtue and admired for his powerful eloquence, the three parties made peace and every one urged him to lose no time in composing the service of the joint feast. With fine discernment, he selected 30 January as appropriate to the celebration, for it would set the seal to the month in which each of the three Hierarchs already had a separate commemoration (Saint Basil – January 1; Saint Gregory – January 25; Saint John (translation of relics) – January 27).

Go to http://www.goarch.org/special/threehierarchs/index_html










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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 12:23:06 PM »

This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!), but who do you think is the greatest and most authoritative Church Father (or fathers) in the history of Christianity? Please give a short explanation why you think the way you do.

Jesus Christ?
Our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ the All-Merciful master and creator of the cosmos, the second hypostasis of the Most-Holy and All-Glorified Trinity *takes a deep breath* wasn't exactly an option, but thanks anyway! Wink Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 12:40:42 PM »

Pope St. Athanasius the Great.  He summed up all that went before, and provides the basis of all that has followed.
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 12:46:28 PM »

Pope St. Athanasius the Great.  He summed up all that went before, and provides the basis of all that has followed.
Agreed.
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 12:54:07 PM »

Pope St. Athanasius the Great.  He summed up all that went before, and provides the basis of all that has followed.
Agreed.

Yup, Athanasius Contra Mundum!
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 01:53:21 PM »

Pope St. Athanasius the Great.  He summed up all that went before, and provides the basis of all that has followed.
He has my vote!
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 02:58:17 PM »

"If, then, the Savior is neither a mere man nor a magician, nor one of the demons, but has by His Godhead confounded and overshadowed the opinions of the poets, and the delusion of the demons, and the wisdom of the Greeks, it must be manifest and will be owned by all that He is in truth Son of God, Existent Word and Wisdom and Power of the Father." -St. Athanasius
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 04:01:10 PM »

Pope St. Athanasius the Great.  He summed up all that went before, and provides the basis of all that has followed.

Seems about right.
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 04:39:07 PM »

Do Apostles count?
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 05:21:11 PM »

Do Apostles count?
No, otherwise the Apostles would definitely be at the top of the list.
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 05:31:00 PM »

Wow, I think we just found our basis for unity. Wink
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 05:33:44 PM »

Wow, I think we just found our basis for unity. Wink
Yep...
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 05:38:47 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 05:40:56 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel
Evacuate the website!! This is not a drill! This is not a drill! Tongue

OK, bad joke, but still...
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2011, 05:41:38 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel
don't.
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2011, 05:43:16 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel

He is a divisive figure, even amongst only EO. Tongue
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2011, 05:56:41 PM »

I would agree with those who have said St. Athanasius the Great.
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 06:06:07 PM »

St John of Damascus - Father, hymnographer, defender of icons, the man with an answer for everything.  laugh
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2011, 06:15:41 PM »

St John of Damascus - Father, hymnographer, defender of icons, the man with an answer for everything.  laugh
LOL. I agree with all of the above, but St. John's answer for the OP would be Pope St. Athanasius.   laugh
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2011, 06:17:15 PM »

St John Chrysostom.

*Double thumbs up*
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2011, 06:29:48 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel

He is a divisive figure, even amongst only EO. Tongue

I feel sorry for him. It must be awfully boring to spend eternity in Heaven knowing that your best friends are heretics while your own kinsfolk refuse to play with you. He must play all by himself. Sad
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 06:33:14 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel

He is a divisive figure, even amongst only EO. Tongue

Poor old Augustine. It must be awfully boring to spend eternity in Heaven knowing that your best friends are heretics and your own kinsfolk refuse to play with you. He must play all by himself. Sad

I was tempted in the same manner. Sorry, but his writing on reading and understanding are beautiful and elegant elaborations of a true reader and hermeneutics of the heart.

ST. Augustine will always be close to me for that alone.
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2011, 06:34:42 PM »

St. Paul

The more I read. The older I get. The more I love this man.
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2011, 06:35:21 PM »

Quote from: Alpo
I feel sorry for him. It must be awfully boring to spend eternity in Heaven knowing that your best friends are heretics and your own kinsfolk refuse to play with you. He must play all by himself. Sad

Yeah!  Sad Although his Trinity-ology could use some tweaks, his confession was very moving. I always liked him.
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2011, 06:37:12 PM »

ehm.. Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2011, 06:38:51 PM »

I'm tempted to answer Saint Augustine...  angel

He is a divisive figure, even amongst only EO. Tongue

I feel sorry for him. It must be awfully boring to spend eternity in Heaven knowing that your best friends are heretics while your own kinsfolk refuse to play with you. He must play all by himself. Sad
No, I think he plays well with others.  Despite a little razzing from Pope St. Athanasius, St. John Damascene, St. John Chrysostom and the rest of the gang, I'm quite sure he is at home among the saints.
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2011, 06:40:55 PM »

ehm.. Smiley
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ehm..If I were allowed to name all orthodox children, I would name them All Athnasios and Athnasia! Grin

But then, would they all have to have nicknames or different middle names to tell them apart?  Huh How would they be on a bowling team?
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2011, 06:41:54 PM »

ehm.. Smiley
St.Athnasios the Great!
St.Athnasios the Confessor!
St.Athnasios the Champion  and Pillar of Orthodoxy!
St.Athnasios defender of Orthodoxy Against the world!

ehm..If I were allowed to name all orthodox children, I would name them All Athnasios and Athnasia! Grin

But then, would they all have to have nicknames or different middle names to tell them apart?  Huh How would they be on a bowling team?

Ask George Foreman.
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2011, 06:45:36 PM »

LOL, there will be a lot of numbering next to their names Senior , junior etc or I,II III IV lol
Thank goodness I aint the one naming anybody huh lol
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2011, 06:47:11 PM »

ehm.. Smiley
St.Athnasios the Great!
St.Athnasios the Confessor!
St.Athnasios the Champion  and Pillar of Orthodoxy!
St.Athnasios defender of Orthodoxy Against the world!

ehm..If I were allowed to name all orthodox children, I would name them All Athnasios and Athnasia! Grin

But then, would they all have to have nicknames or different middle names to tell them apart?  Huh How would they be on a bowling team?

Ask George Foreman.


LOL
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« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2011, 07:35:34 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
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« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2011, 07:47:42 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Thanks for this. Yet one more "icon" I'll put in my depressingly growing schlock file. At least Origen isn't sporting a halo. Small mercies ...  Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2011, 07:50:36 PM »

ehm.. Smiley
St.Athnasios the Great!
St.Athnasios the Confessor!
St.Athnasios the Champion  and Pillar of Orthodoxy!
St.Athnasios defender of Orthodoxy Against the world!

ehm..If I were allowed to name all orthodox children, I would name them All Athnasios and Athnasia! Grin

But then, would they all have to have nicknames or different middle names to tell them apart?  Huh How would they be on a bowling team?

Ask George Foreman.

Which one?
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2011, 08:49:03 PM »

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

YHWH is the only & greatest Father of the church.
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2011, 09:00:18 PM »

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

YHWH is the only & greatest Father of the church.

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!!!
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2011, 09:01:20 PM »

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

YHWH is the only & greatest Father of the church.
Actually, you've stated an Eastern Orthodox truth! God is our only Father, Master, teacher, and bishop. Any man who has these qualities has them only in virtue of his partaking and being gifted of God's one Fatherhood. All that any of us have, we borrow from Him.
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« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2011, 09:03:18 PM »

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
What do you call the man who (hopefully) was married to your mother?  Or are you claiming she was a virgin too?

"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel" St. Paul, Early, 1st Century, Christian.

Since you cannot call the Church your Mother, you cannot call God your Father.

YHWH is the only & greatest Father of the church.
The God of our Fathers (Acts 3:13).
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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2011, 09:04:38 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2011, 09:06:39 PM »

Great-martyr James the Persian of course: http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=103402
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2011, 09:07:24 PM »

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
What do you call the man who (hopefully) was married to your mother?  Or are you claiming she was a virgin too?

"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel" St. Paul, Early, 1st Century, Christian.

Since you cannot call the Church your Mother, you cannot call God your Father.

YHWH is the only & greatest Father of the church.
The God of our Fathers (Acts 3:13).
We've already been through this on another thread, he thinks the Apostles rampantly disobeyed Jesus on this point.
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2011, 09:10:27 PM »

I wish we had writings of Saint Nicholas of Myra. He must have had a fascinating mind.
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2011, 09:11:48 PM »

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
What do you call the man who (hopefully) was married to your mother?  Or are you claiming she was a virgin too?

"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel" St. Paul, Early, 1st Century, Christian.

Since you cannot call the Church your Mother, you cannot call God your Father.

YHWH is the only & greatest Father of the church.
The God of our Fathers (Acts 3:13).
We've already been through this on another thread, he thinks the Apostles rampantly disobeyed Jesus on this point.
What do you want from a Judaizing heretic, cut off from Christ and His Church?
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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2011, 09:19:37 PM »

^Ignore him, let's get back on topic, please.
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« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2011, 09:21:45 PM »

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?
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« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2011, 09:23:28 PM »

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?
I am not EO, but I would doubt it.
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« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2011, 09:24:06 PM »

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

No, not at all.
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« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2011, 09:25:20 PM »

Yeah, I didn't think so. I think I saw that in an encyclopedia.
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« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2011, 09:38:45 PM »

I wish we had writings of Saint Nicholas of Myra. He must have had a fascinating mind.

Agreed
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« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2011, 09:39:54 PM »

Yeah, I didn't think so. I think I saw that in an encyclopedia.
yeah, it is often asserted, especially by those who need to have the Patristic Age a thing of the past rather than a living reality.
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« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2011, 09:41:17 PM »

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

No, not at all.

As I understand things, the age of the Fathers is never at a close.
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« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2011, 09:41:46 PM »

Is Saint John of Damascus considered the last EO Church Father?

No, not at all.

As I understand things, the age of the Fathers is never at a close.
Yep. To say that the patristic age has passed and that there can be no more Fathers is like saying the Holy Spirit has left the Church.
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« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2011, 10:02:12 PM »

Yeah, I didn't think so. I think I saw that in an encyclopedia.
yeah, it is often asserted, especially by those who need to have the Patristic Age a thing of the past rather than a living reality.
mm.

I said Saint Silouan of Athos is definitely one modern Father.
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« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2011, 10:16:58 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
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« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2011, 10:27:59 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 10:28:11 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2011, 10:41:35 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
But is it not true?

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.
I haven't been able to find it for sale anywhere yet.
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« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2011, 10:44:09 PM »

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.
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« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2011, 11:00:54 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
But is it not true?

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.
I haven't been able to find it for sale anywhere yet.

It is true and a shame for Origen and a misfortune on the part the strife between his "followers" and the Church.

Nearly every Orthodox "thinker" I've ask on the side about Origen and if he shudda been treated the way he was or perhaps canonized, the answer is always never anathematized and some think he ought to have canonized, but always with a wince.

He was a REAL Confessor. What he went through for not dening the faith is amazing. They wouldn't let him die. Just harm him enough to do it again over years.

And if you actually read his works, he had the misfortune of:

Too much time.
Too much parchment.
Too many brain cells.
Too great a willingness to "speculate or think aloud" with a buncha caveats people later ignored.

I do think his treatment is a tragedy.

It is no joke when I say I pray for him.
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« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2011, 11:06:10 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3
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« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2011, 11:06:49 PM »

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.

God the Father in that case.
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« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2011, 11:12:08 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3
I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.
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« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2011, 11:18:40 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3
I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

I want to believe, cause he is going into my icon corner if you are correct, but:

Quote
Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned at the Synod of Constantinople (543) by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Anathemas_.28544.2C_553.29

I believe most are of the same mind on this issue who I read, see, etc.

Origen got a raw deal and we are INCREDIBLY indebted to him.

Please do show me that the Church did not officially condemn the man.

I would appreciate it.
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« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2011, 11:28:48 PM »

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.
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« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2011, 11:32:41 PM »

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.
In what way?
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« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2011, 11:39:20 PM »

Sorry to burst your bubble, orthonorm:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

All official proclamations from the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
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« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2011, 11:40:09 PM »

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.

Care to elaborate? Sounds interesting.
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« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2011, 11:49:26 PM »

Despite being raised in the faith, Origen was the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy after my teenage disenchantment phase.
In what way?

Just in short ...

At that time, I was led to the conclusion, from observing popular culture and even the practices of my family, that Christianity was an unsophisticated and stupid religion, founded on meaningless thou-shalt-nots.

Origen "rescued" Christianity for me by showing me that the authority of the Most Holy Scriptures can be affirmed while interpreting them in a manner worthy of God's majesty. Of course, I could have been led to the same realisation by the Fathers of the Church, but at that time I didn't have any interest in such persons -- Origen being much trendier for not having the word "saint" in front of his name.

My own experience has made me a passionate believer that young people who show signs of intellectual sophistication must be made to see that Christianity is much more than "bible stories" as early as possible.
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« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2011, 11:50:40 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3
I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

I want to believe, cause he is going into my icon corner if you are correct, but:

Quote
Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned at the Synod of Constantinople (543) by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Anathemas_.28544.2C_553.29

I believe most are of the same mind on this issue who I read, see, etc.

Origen got a raw deal and we are INCREDIBLY indebted to him.

Please do show me that the Church did not officially condemn the man.

I would appreciate it.
There really is no way to show he was not condemned without reading every single last document of the Church, and I am going on recollection here. Certain aspects of his belief in apocotostasis were anathematised (such as reincarnation), but I don't ever recall seeing anything that specifically says he himself was anathema.
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« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2011, 11:54:16 PM »

Origen being much trendier for not having the word "saint" in from of his name.

Wow, when I renounced Christianity, I killed a cat or something in offering to the moon.

You go and read Origen.

No wonder my life has taken the route it has.

I blame it on my church though. Laodicean was about the worst thing you could be called.

No half measures.
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« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2011, 11:56:19 PM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!
He held heterodox beliefs, but Origen was a brilliant theologian and, in a lot of ways, I see his influence in the writings of other Alexandrian Fathers. Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty, a Coptic Orthodox Priest and theologian, LOVES to quote Origen. May God have mercy on him despite his heresies!

They were post-mortem problems for the Church. Plenty of other problems in others teachers, who weren't even Confessors, who were canonized. It is just Origen had zealous "followers" who over-emphasized often speculative aspects of his writings.

The teachings and those who held to them should have been dealt with. Not the brilliant man who suffered severely for the faith.

Lord have mercy.

It really does break my heart. I thought St. Augustine got a bum's rap when I first heard Orthodox who obviously hadn't read him talking about him . . .

When I started reading Origen and learned of his fate: </3
I've never actually seen anything official against Origin, just against those beliefs that some followers wouldn't shut up about.

I want to believe, cause he is going into my icon corner if you are correct, but:

Quote
Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned at the Synod of Constantinople (543) by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Anathemas_.28544.2C_553.29

I believe most are of the same mind on this issue who I read, see, etc.

Origen got a raw deal and we are INCREDIBLY indebted to him.

Please do show me that the Church did not officially condemn the man.

I would appreciate it.
There really is no way to show he was not condemned without reading every single last document of the Church, and I am going on recollection here. Certain aspects of his belief in apocotostasis were anathematised (such as reincarnation), but I don't ever recall seeing anything that specifically says he himself was anathema.

Thanks for the hope! I've just been told and read otherwise.

I am sure there is someone here who will fill us in.

In the meantime, I'll look into more of the history, as much as it pains me. I prefer reading what was written. Never big on history as such and never on geography at all, which is why Isa perplexes me often.
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« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2011, 12:02:36 AM »


*BUMP*
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« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2011, 12:16:23 AM »


Hey it wasn't a bubble yet! It was just some soap hanging on that ring thing to be blown into. (Get your mind outta the gutter, you know who you are.)

Thank you. That is what I thought.
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« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2011, 12:19:13 AM »


Hey it wasn't a bubble yet! It was just some soap hanging on that ring thing to be blown into. (Get your mind outta the gutter, you know who you are.)

Thank you. That is what I thought.

BTW, I'll take your word for it, I ain't pouring over those documents. Since it seems to gibe / jibe / jive (for you illiterates //:=)) with nearly everything I have ever heard or read regarding the Confessor by those even most sympathetic to him.

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« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2011, 12:21:26 AM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
But is it not true?
that's why it is ironic.
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« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2011, 12:25:00 AM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
But is it not true?
that's why it is ironic.


Isa,

Show some love.

Do you think Origen got a raw deal so to speak given what we know today?

I am rallying troops to have his name put in good standing again.

That will be letter 12,352 I am sending to my Bishop upon reception into the Church.
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« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2011, 12:26:30 AM »

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.
No, as St. Clement was a Church Father, as was the slightly later St. Ignatius, and the later St. Polycarp, but neither St. Ignatius nor St. Polycarp show any dependence on St. Clement: hence the independent, corroborating testimony on the teaching of the Apostles.
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« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2011, 12:29:06 AM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

Nicholas,

In any case, thanks a ton. You have no idea how perfect this is going to be as a gift. I'll figure out someway of getting it. It will bring extreme joy to one man's life every time he looks at it.

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« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2011, 01:04:32 AM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
But is it not true?
that's why it is ironic.


Isa,

Show some love.

Do you think Origen got a raw deal so to speak given what we know today?

I am rallying troops to have his name put in good standing again.

That will be letter 12,352 I am sending to my Bishop upon reception into the Church.
Origen's name is as good as it is going to get.

What was too heretical was destroyed, but much the Church couldn't do without, so it was edited for Orthodoxy. So his legacy was saved, but the picture of what exactly incurred the wrath of the Fifth Ecumenical Council was blurred.  He did have some strange ideas-Mormon strange-borrowed from Platonism in part: pre-existence of souls, for example.

Origen is often quoted, as the editing has made him safe.  In some areas, he was too smart for his own good, and should have stuck with the simplicity of the Church's Gospel, but he died in the Church and was not corrected (and refused it), the main force of the anathema is preventing his canonization.
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« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2011, 01:05:57 AM »

I guess most authoritative would be whoever is considered the first Church Father, since the teachings of all the fathers is based on what was there before them.
No, as St. Clement was a Church Father, as was the slightly later St. Ignatius, and the later St. Polycarp, but neither St. Ignatius nor St. Polycarp show any dependence on St. Clement: hence the independent, corroborating testimony on the teaching of the Apostles.
I believe you might have just stumbled upon my point.  Wink
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« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2011, 01:18:39 AM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin
A bit of irony there.
But is it not true?
that's why it is ironic.


Isa,

Show some love.

Do you think Origen got a raw deal so to speak given what we know today?

I am rallying troops to have his name put in good standing again.

That will be letter 12,352 I am sending to my Bishop upon reception into the Church.
Origen's name is as good as it is going to get.

What was too heretical was destroyed, but much the Church couldn't do without, so it was edited for Orthodoxy. So his legacy was saved, but the picture of what exactly incurred the wrath of the Fifth Ecumenical Council was blurred.  He did have some strange ideas-Mormon strange-borrowed from Platonism in part: pre-existence of souls, for example.

Origen is often quoted, as the editing has made him safe.  In some areas, he was too smart for his own good, and should have stuck with the simplicity of the Church's Gospel, but he died in the Church and was not corrected (and refused it), the main force of the anathema is preventing his canonization.

Thanks. He was too smart for his own good and seems to not have be aware of what impact his more self-consciously speculative ideas might have.

Died a Confessor of extremity as I am sure you know. What is the practical upshot for us not so educated of his non-canonical status? (Everyone feel free to chime in.)

Certainly we can pray for him.

Is it kosher to have an image of him (there are images available)? Yes, I can ask my Priest and will, for everyone ready to type it.

I interested in folks' opinions.

It may sound silly, but I really have grown to have a bit of sorrow for him and respect and love. I appreciate his abilities, mourn his life, and wonder how many keep him in their prayers.

I mean my mother was by no means a Saint and yet I pray for her often. Have a few object I keep of hers. Etc.

Is there a difference?

I wouldn't put the image above in an icon corner . . . That would be ridiculous. But an image, card or the like somewhere.

Heck, I do read the guy after all.

Thanks.



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« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2011, 03:49:35 AM »

Just found this wierd image I think the Anglicans made:



 Grin

Awesome!

I who I am getting that for. I have a buddy who is nearly as nerded out on Origen the Confessor and St. Athanasius.

Poor Origen the Confessor, Lord have mercy on him!

Nicholas,

In any case, thanks a ton. You have no idea how perfect this is going to be as a gift. I'll figure out someway of getting it. It will bring extreme joy to one man's life every time he looks at it.



You're welcome.

From my understanding the anathemas against "Origenism" are much more confirmed authentic historically than against Origen himself. The whole thing is a bit muddled.

But now that there are no more Origenites, I'm sure his case is technically fixable. The Church allowed the Montanists to keep their martyrs after they repented, for example.

If the Russians can saint Joseph Volotsky, the Greeks should be able to saint Origen. Why not?
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« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2011, 04:07:14 AM »

So since we mentioned St. Athanasius, what about St. Cyril of Alexandria? Anybody whose Christology was so influential as to have both sides of a schism claiming to accurately represent it has to be pretty authoritative, at least when Christology is concerned.
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« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2011, 05:04:23 AM »

Is there any doubt...?

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« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2011, 05:05:35 AM »

Is there any doubt...?



 laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2011, 05:10:26 AM »


The only one of the Saints to be given the thirteenth throne alongside the 12 Apostles, to judge the people of Ireland.
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« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2011, 05:24:15 AM »

Is there any doubt...?



The Judgement of the Irish

[....] Patrick asks that on the Day of Judgement he, himself, should judge the
people of Ireland.  The Angel tellS him that assuredly that blessing
cannot be obtained from the Lord.  "Unless it is got from Him," Patrick
says to the Angel, " there is no leaving the reek before Doomsday."

The Angel goes back to Heaven.  Patrick celebrates the Offering
(Eucharist.) The Angel returns at the ninth hour to relay to Patrick
God's message.  It is that, after the twelve Apostles, there would be no
man more admirable than he, were it not for his obstinacy, but that
nevertheless he may have what he asked for.  Patrick is to strike his
bell;  the people of Ireland living and dead will be consecrated to him,
at which Patrick exclaims,
        "Blessed be the bountiful King who has
        bestowed this;  now shall there be a
        departure from the reek."                   

         The End, and Glory be to our God!

Extract ::  "How Saint Patrick Spent Lent in the Year 439 AD"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2951
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« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2011, 07:21:41 AM »

So since we mentioned St. Athanasius, what about St. Cyril of Alexandria? Anybody whose Christology was so influential as to have both sides of a schism claiming to accurately represent it has to be pretty authoritative, at least when Christology is concerned.
I would definitely argue that he is up on the list of most influential Fathers of all time.
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« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2011, 07:32:48 AM »

So since we mentioned St. Athanasius, what about St. Cyril of Alexandria? Anybody whose Christology was so influential as to have both sides of a schism claiming to accurately represent it has to be pretty authoritative, at least when Christology is concerned.
I would definitely argue that he is up on the list of most influential Fathers of all time.

Severian, where did you get your custom title underneath your name? It is somewhat appropriate, haha.
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« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2011, 07:37:09 AM »


This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!),


The words and appearances of the three holy Hierarchs and Fathers of the Church, Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and John Chrysostom when people were trying to work out who was the greatest suggest that it may be blasphemous, or at least something very unacceptable to the Saints.  See message 3.   What was not good in the 11th century is not good in the 21st.
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« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2011, 09:41:44 AM »


This may be blasphemous (Lord have mercy on me if it is!),


The words and appearances of the three holy Hierarchs and Fathers of the Church, Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and John Chrysostom when people were trying to work out who was the greatest suggest that it may be blasphemous, or at least something very unacceptable to the Saints.  See message 3.   What was not good in the 11th century is not good in the 21st.
Yes, since they preach Christ, and not themselves, and speak with the Church's authority, not their own, so that Christ increase as they decrease, the saints would be the first to agree.
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« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2011, 02:56:18 PM »

St. John of Damascus
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