Author Topic: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements  (Read 6632 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2011, 03:27:35 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 
Not being rooted in the Truth, it will collapse and dry up, like all the Judaizing heresies before it (yes, we have seen quite and few come and go).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2011, 05:21:36 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 05:24:27 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2011, 05:38:14 PM »
The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.
Especially for converts. They like to read a lot and know everything already that the hymns are proclaiming at every service.

Seriously, I am lucky to go to a parish that evidently has a rather rich liturgical calendar of services we celebrate.

I can't imagine how much someone would miss out if they couldn't understand what was being sung. It is often very remarkable what is being sung. Not having to flip through a translation, just being able to do the already difficult task of being present and engaged in the corporate act of worship is difficult enough.

Even reading the texts outside their liturgical use is somehow different. I would rather have a sub-par English choir any day over some top notch Russian choir, if I am going for the latter, I am there for a concert. Not worship.

The American converts who pass up an English language parish to go some other route are just LARPing.

Can't imagine having gone through nearly every service offered over the last year and had to struggle as much as I have to only have to struggle with language as well.

Would've been greatly deprived.
I see what you're getting at orthonorm.  I am thinking about transferring to a jurisdiction that uses only English as well.  I have been Orthodox for about 5 months, can't imagine what my godmother might think.  However even if it is all completely in Greek, I still feel that God is there.  I partake of him in the Eucharist, and I feel renewed each time.  The priest still has Holy Confession in English, and there's still a lot of English that's used in my Greek church.   It also helps me to remember that Christianity is not a Western phenomenon, and to hear it in Hellenistic Greek is extraordinarily beautiful when you get the guy who can chant it properly. 

Also, I've noticed I've picked up on several Greek terms used in the liturgy as anyone would.  I may even choose to take Greek as a foreign language when I transfer to the University of Memphis.

I don't think that he was disparaging foreign-language parishes, but rather those who seek out everything foreign and exotic that Orthodoxy has to offer, rather than the Church itself. You are blessed where you are and I would discourage any movement at this point, as God has led you to where you are. Those "foreign" elements are only problematic when we begin to embrace them as some end to themselves. Those who actively seek out the Church as some form of escape from reality need to be corrected. I am truly blessed by the Serbian Church and her heritage and rich culture. But I am blessed to be at an all-English parish where I can benefit from understanding the fullness of the services.

But you are right, you have the fullness of Christ in the Eucharist and should be content to grow where you are. If at some point the language barrier seems to be some kind of an insurmountable spiritual hurtle, then it might be appropriate to approach your priest and see about going to another parish. But by simply staying put where God has placed us, we have a great opportunity to grow in humility and contentment.

I've only been a member of English Only Parishes. However, I love the Slavonic Service and I am trying to lean Greek so I can visit  a Greek Monastery or even go to Athos one day and have some language under my belt.

Going to a Middle Class English speaking Parrish was a change for me. I had only been involved in exotic stuff all my life, so that was actually a big change.. I've even grown to like Christmas Sweaters with snowmen and little bells sewn on them...

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2011, 06:04:12 PM »
One of the problems with this movement is that it's based on an effort to reverse-engineer an amalgam of Christianity and Judaism. They're working backwards from someone else's blueprint. Why? Why go back, when Jesus already did everything for you? Jesus has already fulfilled everything that was needed to be done from a Jewish perspective. The old law has obsolesced. You notice that the New Testament is referred to as the New, and not "Here's Some More Stuff we Tacked on to the Old"? There's a reason for that.

It says a lot that no other church between the time of the New Testament and recent times chose to engage in the Judaizing practices. If Judaizing is the right way to go, why didn't the Roman Catholics do that? Why didn't the Lutherans and Anglicans do that? Why did the Orthodox Christians never do that? Why did nobody at all between the New Testament and the rise of the neo-Evangelical Christians do so?

There's no 'there' there. You can't imagine a past that never was.
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Offline mathetes

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2011, 11:45:59 PM »

Where are your bishops?

There's a hierarchy in the MJAA and in its licensing organization, the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS). A new rabbi is accountable to at least one experienced rabbi, and congregations must be approved by the IAMCS. There are means for handling appeals, complaints, and disciplinary matters.
I think what Isa is referring to is not a governing body, but Episcopal authority and Apostolic Succession.

PP

I thought the question came from ialmisry. Anyway, I answered what was asked, and Apostolic Succession seems off-topic for this thread.  :angel:
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2011, 06:09:13 PM »

Where are your bishops?

There's a hierarchy in the MJAA and in its licensing organization, the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS). A new rabbi is accountable to at least one experienced rabbi, and congregations must be approved by the IAMCS. There are means for handling appeals, complaints, and disciplinary matters.
I think what Isa is referring to is not a governing body, but Episcopal authority and Apostolic Succession.

PP

I thought the question came from ialmisry. Anyway, I answered what was asked, and Apostolic Succession seems off-topic for this thread.  :angel:
A bishop is not some licensing authority but is a hierarch that can trace his authority back to one or more of the apostles. Correlating a bishop to a licensing authority is what is off topic.
The question did come from Isa, but since this is a public forum......

PP
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2011, 09:52:53 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces. Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2011, 10:22:17 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces. Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)

Actually his Mother is Jewish so ...It just goes to show you, don't judge or make assumptions.

You should read Fr.James Bernstein's book "Surprised by Christ" he came from a very Pious Jewish Family. And there are others like Fr. Alexander Men and Matushka Magdalena Barry...

And no , Judaizing doesn't apply to me. You probably dont understand what Judaizing is. It has nothing to do with converts. It has to do with introducing aspects of Jewish Practice into Christianity, like celebrating the Jewish Feasts and Holy days, keeping kosher etc  ..
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2011, 10:33:46 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces. Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)

Actually his Mother is Jewish so ...It just goes to show you, don't judge or make assumptions.

You should read Fr.James Bernstein's book "Surprised by Christ" he came from a very Pious Jewish Family. And there are others like Fr. Alexander Men and Matushka Magdalena Barry...

And no , Judaizing doesn't apply to me. You probably dont understand what Judaizing is. It has nothing to do with converts. It has to do with introducing aspects of Jewish Practice into Christianity, like celebrating the Jewish Feasts and Holy days, keeping kosher etc  ..
So what your telling me is your both self- hating Jews  :o isn't that just nice an on that note I will back out of this convo as I do not hate my own back ground.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2011, 11:22:57 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces. Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)

Actually his Mother is Jewish so ...It just goes to show you, don't judge or make assumptions.

You should read Fr.James Bernstein's book "Surprised by Christ" he came from a very Pious Jewish Family. And there are others like Fr. Alexander Men and Matushka Magdalena Barry...

And no , Judaizing doesn't apply to me. You probably dont understand what Judaizing is. It has nothing to do with converts. It has to do with introducing aspects of Jewish Practice into Christianity, like celebrating the Jewish Feasts and Holy days, keeping kosher etc  ..
So what your telling me is your both self- hating Jews  :o isn't that just nice an on that note I will back out of this convo as I do not hate my own back ground.

Yes, this would be a good moment for you to back out.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline SeraphimMark

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2011, 01:29:43 AM »
I think its bizarre not even from a theological sense. In the theological sense , it makes sense that  a few of these evangelicals go for this theological fad, "Messianic Juadism"  because they outright reject traditional Christianity . In a sense they fall into the error of cleaving to the old types that prefigured the Church and Christ. The types mentioned by St Paul in his Epistles to the Churches. Because of their rejection of sacramentalism as sanctioned by the Church, they embrace a false sacrementalism. "prayer shaws" and the old  types . I find it bizarre that people who have no association with Juadism would want to be "Jewish" because  normally if your Jewish your born into it . The religion and cultural identity go hand in hand. From that point of view it makes no sense to me. Im sure of course many orthodox Jews scratch their heads as well.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2011, 09:54:08 AM »

Where are your bishops?

There's a hierarchy in the MJAA and in its licensing organization, the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS). A new rabbi is accountable to at least one experienced rabbi, and congregations must be approved by the IAMCS. There are means for handling appeals, complaints, and disciplinary matters.
I think what Isa is referring to is not a governing body, but Episcopal authority and Apostolic Succession.

PP

I thought the question came from ialmisry. Anyway, I answered what was asked, and Apostolic Succession seems off-topic for this thread.  :angel:
Au contraire:as Christians walk (or should walk) in the way of the Apotles, and not in the way of the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes, Apostolic Succession is THE topic of this thread.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2011, 09:58:02 AM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2011, 10:01:54 AM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces. Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)

Actually his Mother is Jewish so ...It just goes to show you, don't judge or make assumptions.

You should read Fr.James Bernstein's book "Surprised by Christ" he came from a very Pious Jewish Family. And there are others like Fr. Alexander Men and Matushka Magdalena Barry...

And no , Judaizing doesn't apply to me. You probably dont understand what Judaizing is. It has nothing to do with converts. It has to do with introducing aspects of Jewish Practice into Christianity, like celebrating the Jewish Feasts and Holy days, keeping kosher etc  ..
So what your telling me is your both self- hating Jews  :o
Well, if you insist on pigeon-holing us into your little universe that way to make yourself feel better and secure...
isn't that just nice an on that note I will back out of this convo as I do not hate my own back ground.
Marc, who doesn't hate his background, already has answered.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2011, 10:28:24 AM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)

If you read back you will find that I am often the first person to criticize a Judaizer.

Okay.. I will listen to Rush on the radio today. Maybe this time he will make more sense to me. I am willing to give it another shot.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2011, 10:49:56 AM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)

If you read back you will find that I am often the first person to criticize a Judaizer.

Okay.. I will listen to Rush on the radio today. Maybe this time he will make more sense to me. I am willing to give it another shot.

LOL.  Better yet, Mark Steyn (I just found out its his birthday today):as good as Rush, without the ego.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2011, 11:55:52 AM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)

If you read back you will find that I am often the first person to criticize a Judaizer.

Okay.. I will listen to Rush on the radio today. Maybe this time he will make more sense to me. I am willing to give it another shot.

LOL.  Better yet, Mark Steyn (I just found out its his birthday today):as good as Rush, without the ego.

True enough... I like him much better.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2011, 12:45:11 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)

If you read back you will find that I am often the first person to criticize a Judaizer.

Okay.. I will listen to Rush on the radio today. Maybe this time he will make more sense to me. I am willing to give it another shot.

LOL.  Better yet, Mark Steyn (I just found out its his birthday today):as good as Rush, without the ego.

True enough... I like him much better.
I find Mark quite entertaining and although I dont agrtee with everything he says, he is very articulate in delivering his point without making himself look like a god (al Rush)
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2011, 12:50:50 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)

If you read back you will find that I am often the first person to criticize a Judaizer.

Okay.. I will listen to Rush on the radio today. Maybe this time he will make more sense to me. I am willing to give it another shot.

LOL.  Better yet, Mark Steyn (I just found out its his birthday today):as good as Rush, without the ego.

True enough... I like him much better.
I find Mark quite entertaining and although I dont agrtee with everything he says, he is very articulate in delivering his point without making himself look like a god (al Rush)

It's not just Rush's ego, I can chalk that up to entertainment. It's that most of his arguments contain 25% to 50% factual truth and the rest is spin and re framing and bluster.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2011, 12:52:38 PM »
The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 

With all due respect, those are bogus arguments.

In the first place there are plenty of Jews who have converted to the Church and do just fine.

But even when the going gets tough, it's not an acceptable excuse to say your own particular cross is too much to carry. Christianity is not for sissies. Everyone in the Church in engaged in intense spiritual warfare. The enemy comes at us in all kinds of different ways. Jewish piety is actually very similar to Orthodox Christian piety. Jews have fewer hoops to jump through in some ways than many former Protestants.

It's not persuasive from our point of view to say, "It's too hard, so I am going to punt and rig up something new to make myself a bit more comfortable". Theosis is not about warm fuzzies or comfort. It's about real change. No struggle, no change.

And finally, rejecting The Church, no matter the excuse is a sin. The Church is the Body of Christ in a real tangible sense. You cant accept the head and not the body. It cant be done. Any lesser formulation is risky business.
I hear what your saying about some who have converted into the Church an I know this. I will also bring up what always comes out in the mix is yes there Jewish but only by culture most couldn't tell you what an inside of a shul looked like.

Like a good friend of mine use to say " I would rather play in a pit of rattle snakes than in a pit of copper heads " A good example of this is Mr. Ialmisry I bet he would shake our hand if we walked into his church be all nice friendly but as you read his post on here I have my doubts he would say that to our faces.
LOL. How well you don't know me.
Don't forget Mr Marc when he says the whole  Judaizing remarks he means you as well  ;)
No, I don't.  Mark isn't a Judaizer.  Just a Hebrew Christian, 100% Orthodox (now, if we could just work on his politics... :police:)

If you read back you will find that I am often the first person to criticize a Judaizer.

Okay.. I will listen to Rush on the radio today. Maybe this time he will make more sense to me. I am willing to give it another shot.

LOL.  Better yet, Mark Steyn (I just found out its his birthday today):as good as Rush, without the ego.

True enough... I like him much better.
I find Mark quite entertaining and although I dont agrtee with everything he says, he is very articulate in delivering his point without making himself look like a god (al Rush)

It's not just Rush's ego, I can chalk that up to entertainment. It's that most of his arguments contain 25% to 50% factual truth and the rest is spin and re framing and bluster.
Unfortunately, he's not doing anything that we dont hear on every news channel, its just which way it is spun, to the left or right. Everybody seems to have a friggin agenda nowadays.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2011, 12:04:58 AM »
Please get back on topic. Thank you.
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2013, 06:44:52 AM »
Apparently some believe, if they even believe in the Trinity at all, that the Holy Spirit is female, and that there is subordination in the Trinity (3 ranks). They apparently justify the idea that the Holy Spirit is a "she" not only with appeals to Hebrew grammar, but by saying that Adam and Eve being in the image of God means there must be a female in God (in which case why wasn't it Adam, Stan, and Eve?).

That is because "Shekinah" is feminine in Hebrew.  This was the Spirit of God that dwelt in the Holy Temple.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline mike

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2013, 06:50:02 AM »
There are feminine words that describe males (or contrarywise). "Jaszczurka" ("lizard") is a female word but can describe either male or female lizards. "Szczur" ("rat") is male but can describe female rats too. There are even words that can be male or female depending on the usage. Determining HS' sex depending on the grammatical gender is cretinism.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2013, 01:19:09 PM »
There are feminine words that describe males (or contrarywise). "Jaszczurka" ("lizard") is a female word but can describe either male or female lizards. "Szczur" ("rat") is male but can describe female rats too. There are even words that can be male or female depending on the usage. Determining HS' sex depending on the grammatical gender is cretinism.

I was using Hebrew... ::)
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2013, 01:30:09 PM »
There are feminine words that describe males (or contrarywise). "Jaszczurka" ("lizard") is a female word but can describe either male or female lizards. "Szczur" ("rat") is male but can describe female rats too. There are even words that can be male or female depending on the usage. Determining HS' sex depending on the grammatical gender is cretinism.

I was using Hebrew... ::)

Poilish iz oikh loshn koidesh!

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2013, 01:37:45 PM »
There are feminine words that describe males (or contrarywise). "Jaszczurka" ("lizard") is a female word but can describe either male or female lizards. "Szczur" ("rat") is male but can describe female rats too. There are even words that can be male or female depending on the usage. Determining HS' sex depending on the grammatical gender is cretinism.

I was using Hebrew... ::)

Poilish iz oikh loshn koidesh!

חחח
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 01:39:19 PM by orthonorm »
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2013, 01:39:38 PM »
There are feminine words that describe males (or contrarywise). "Jaszczurka" ("lizard") is a female word but can describe either male or female lizards. "Szczur" ("rat") is male but can describe female rats too. There are even words that can be male or female depending on the usage. Determining HS' sex depending on the grammatical gender is cretinism.

I was using Hebrew... ::)

Poilish iz oikh loshn koidesh!

no it isn't
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Offline Romaios

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 01:51:46 PM by Romaios »

Offline mike

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2013, 01:55:49 PM »
I was using Hebrew... ::)

Is there a different situation in Hebrew?

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2013, 02:33:52 PM »
I was using Hebrew... ::)

Is there a different situation in Hebrew?

Well since I was using a HEBREW term and you were trying to make your point in POLISH...you figure it out  ::)
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2013, 02:49:19 PM »
The honest truth? Because Evangelicals have no culture, history or any tradition at all to give credit or assurance to their doctrines and beliefs. As much as they may deny the importance of it, the truth is that deep down they really do desire it. And they are desperate for it. HOWEVER, they HAATE the Roman Catholic (and Orthodox if they knew who we were) Church and are xenophobic of anything having to do with the Church because they have been indoctrinated all their lives into believing that the RC (once again, EO if they knew who we were) Church is the evil spawn of Satan that corrupted the truth right after the Apostles died. So what do they do? Instead of looking to the Church, Fathers and early Christian writers, they instead consult Jews and Rabbis and try to basically recreate Judaism, because for some reason, in their mind, it somehow gives their beliefs more credibility because many of them still believe (due to Zionism) that the Jews have a Covenant with God. This personally is why I believe that so many Protestants are more willing to consult Jewish Rabbis and Judaism than they are the Church.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2013, 04:23:19 PM »
The honest truth? Because Evangelicals have no culture, history or any tradition at all to give credit or assurance to their doctrines and beliefs. As much as they may deny the importance of it, the truth is that deep down they really do desire it. And they are desperate for it. HOWEVER, they HAATE the Roman Catholic (and Orthodox if they knew who we were) Church and are xenophobic of anything having to do with the Church because they have been indoctrinated all their lives into believing that the RC (once again, EO if they knew who we were) Church is the evil spawn of Satan that corrupted the truth right after the Apostles died. So what do they do? Instead of looking to the Church, Fathers and early Christian writers, they instead consult Jews and Rabbis and try to basically recreate Judaism, because for some reason, in their mind, it somehow gives their beliefs more credibility because many of them still believe (due to Zionism) that the Jews have a Covenant with God. This personally is why I believe that so many Protestants are more willing to consult Jewish Rabbis and Judaism than they are the Church.

The honest truth huh? The RC HAS invented doctrines that the early church DID NOT hold. In some respects, The EO has adopted some of them.  The truth is that all the apostles as well as Yeshua Himself were JEWISH.  Yeshua Himself recreated or using a better term, corrected Judaism.  They ALL celebrated Passover on the 14th where you all call them heretics. It is completely ridiculous! One thing I do agree with you is, there are "messianics" that are nothing more than Protestant Evangelicals in Jewish garb.  If they truly want to understand pre-Nicean Jewish Christianity, they need to understand Biblical Judaism, the Judaism of Yeshua and His Talmidim...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline biro

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2013, 04:33:55 PM »
The honest truth? Because Evangelicals have no culture, history or any tradition at all to give credit or assurance to their doctrines and beliefs. As much as they may deny the importance of it, the truth is that deep down they really do desire it. And they are desperate for it. HOWEVER, they HAATE the Roman Catholic (and Orthodox if they knew who we were) Church and are xenophobic of anything having to do with the Church because they have been indoctrinated all their lives into believing that the RC (once again, EO if they knew who we were) Church is the evil spawn of Satan that corrupted the truth right after the Apostles died. So what do they do? Instead of looking to the Church, Fathers and early Christian writers, they instead consult Jews and Rabbis and try to basically recreate Judaism, because for some reason, in their mind, it somehow gives their beliefs more credibility because many of them still believe (due to Zionism) that the Jews have a Covenant with God. This personally is why I believe that so many Protestants are more willing to consult Jewish Rabbis and Judaism than they are the Church.

The honest truth huh? The RC HAS invented doctrines that the early church DID NOT hold. In some respects, The EO has adopted some of them.  The truth is that all the apostles as well as Yeshua Himself were JEWISH.  Yeshua Himself recreated or using a better term, corrected Judaism.  They ALL celebrated Passover on the 14th where you all call them heretics. It is completely ridiculous! One thing I do agree with you is, there are "messianics" that are nothing more than Protestant Evangelicals in Jewish garb.  If they truly want to understand pre-Nicean Jewish Christianity, they need to understand Biblical Judaism, the Judaism of Yeshua and His Talmidim...

Good luck with that.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2013, 04:44:23 PM »
The honest truth huh? The RC HAS invented doctrines that the early church DID NOT hold. In some respects, The EO has adopted some of them.  The truth is that all the apostles as well as Yeshua Himself were JEWISH.  Yeshua Himself recreated or using a better term, corrected Judaism.  They ALL celebrated Passover on the 14th where you all call them heretics. It is completely ridiculous!

Quote from: MATTITYAHU 21 (OJB)
Have you never heard in the Kitvei Hakodesh (Holy Scriptures), EVEN MAASU HABONIM HAYTAH LEROSH PINAH; MEIES HASHEM HAYTAH ZOT HI NIFLAT BEINEINU (The Stone which the Builders rejected, this one has become Head of the Corner; this came about from the L-rd, and it is marvelous in our eyes, TEHILLIM 118:22-23)?

43For this reason, I say to you, the Malchut Hashem will be taken from you and it will be given to a people that produces its pri. 44And the one having fallen on this EVEN (Stone, [Moshiach] DANIEL 2:35; YESHAYAH 8:14-15) will be crushed; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.

45And having heard Moshiach's mashal, the Rashei Hakohanim and the Perushim understood that he spoke about them.

Quote from: LUKAS 2 (OJB)
34And Shimon said a bracha over them and said to Miryam his Em, Hinei this one is destined for the michshol (stumbling) and tekumah (revival) of RABBIM [YESHAYAH 53:11-12] in Yisroel and for an Ot (Sign) that will be opposed (against which there will be mitnaggedim, opponents). [YESHAYAH 8:14; 53:3]
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:51:24 PM by Romaios »

Offline Nicene

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2013, 03:51:02 AM »
In an attempt to be closer to the Historic Jesus they take the judaism he fulfilled and try to tie it to their lives. Messianics are essentially pharisees and usually almost always try to impose the law on others, by implying your not really following Christ if you don't keep the sabbath.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2013, 09:18:21 AM »
Quote
The honest truth huh? The RC HAS invented doctrines that the early church DID NOT hold
No argument from me on this one. Orthodox will say the same thing.

Quote
In some respects, The EO has adopted some of them
Such as?

Quote
If they truly want to understand pre-Nicean Jewish Christianity, they need to understand Biblical Judaism, the Judaism of Yeshua and His Talmidim
I do understand pre-nicean Jewish Christianity. In part its dealt with in Acts 15. Also, Ignatius of Antioch made a distinct separation between Christianity and Judaism....

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2013, 03:40:57 PM »
The honest truth? Because Evangelicals have no culture, history or any tradition at all to give credit or assurance to their doctrines and beliefs. As much as they may deny the importance of it, the truth is that deep down they really do desire it. And they are desperate for it. HOWEVER, they HAATE the Roman Catholic (and Orthodox if they knew who we were) Church and are xenophobic of anything having to do with the Church because they have been indoctrinated all their lives into believing that the RC (once again, EO if they knew who we were) Church is the evil spawn of Satan that corrupted the truth right after the Apostles died. So what do they do? Instead of looking to the Church, Fathers and early Christian writers, they instead consult Jews and Rabbis and try to basically recreate Judaism, because for some reason, in their mind, it somehow gives their beliefs more credibility because many of them still believe (due to Zionism) that the Jews have a Covenant with God. This personally is why I believe that so many Protestants are more willing to consult Jewish Rabbis and Judaism than they are the Church.

The honest truth huh? The RC HAS invented doctrines that the early church DID NOT hold. In some respects, The EO has adopted some of them.  The truth is that all the apostles as well as Yeshua Himself were JEWISH.  Yeshua Himself recreated or using a better term, corrected Judaism.  They ALL celebrated Passover on the 14th where you all call them heretics. It is completely ridiculous! One thing I do agree with you is, there are "messianics" that are nothing more than Protestant Evangelicals in Jewish garb.  If they truly want to understand pre-Nicean Jewish Christianity, they need to understand Biblical Judaism, the Judaism of Yeshua and His Talmidim...

Oh....So you are for Judaizing..  That's what I thought. I wonder why you so adamantly deny it?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline xariskai

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2013, 04:37:29 PM »
Apparently some believe, if they even believe in the Trinity at all, that the Holy Spirit is female, and that there is subordination in the Trinity (3 ranks). They apparently justify the idea that the Holy Spirit is a "she" not only with appeals to Hebrew grammar, but by saying that Adam and Eve being in the image of God means there must be a female in God (in which case why wasn't it Adam, Stan, and Eve?).

That is because "Shekinah" is feminine in Hebrew.  This was the Spirit of God that dwelt in the Holy Temple.
Grammatical gender is not strictly correlative to personal gender in Hebrew or Greek.

Quote from: William Mounce
Heard a fascinating piece of bad exegesis the other day. The Holy Spirit is a she. The basis of this claim was that the Hebrew word for “spirit” (ruach) is feminine...
  www.koinoniablog.net/2010/11/the-spirit-a-she.html
 

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2013, 01:16:45 PM »
Yeah, bizarre. I came across this website 'Disciples of Yeshuwa' which is filled with diatribes and hysterics against St. Paul and Christ. Even calling Christ Satanic. It claims that St. Paul was a false Apostle and it's his fault why there are so many divisions in Christianity. It also claims they've translated a non-existent Hebrew Gospel of Matthew.

Lots of proof-texting, kind of like reading something from the Westboro Baptist Church.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 01:17:27 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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