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Author Topic: Bizarre beliefs of 'Messianic' and 'Hebrew Roots' movements  (Read 5872 times) Average Rating: 0
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JLatimer
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« on: August 23, 2011, 04:22:51 PM »

It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 04:24:19 PM »

The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 04:27:49 PM »

i saw a youtube video of one guy saying Jesus' name was really Yahua, because that's how his name in Greek looks in the Codex Sinaiticus...

My response was: "Who cares? Why does it matter?" Jesus is Yahsua is Isa is Iesous is Gesu is Jesus
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 04:45:02 PM »

The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.

Especially for converts. They like to read a lot and know everything already that the hymns are proclaiming at every service.

Seriously, I am lucky to go to a parish that evidently has a rather rich liturgical calendar of services we celebrate.

I can't imagine how much someone would miss out if they couldn't understand what was being sung. It is often very remarkable what is being sung. Not having to flip through a translation, just being able to do the already difficult task of being present and engaged in the corporate act of worship is difficult enough.

Even reading the texts outside their liturgical use is somehow different. I would rather have a sub-par English choir any day over some top notch Russian choir, if I am going for the latter, I am there for a concert. Not worship.

The American converts who pass up an English language parish to go some other route are just LARPing.

Can't imagine having gone through nearly every service offered over the last year and had to struggle as much as I have to only have to struggle with language as well.

Would've been greatly deprived.
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 04:51:13 PM »

It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.
Easy, if you reject the Church's Tradition which she received from the Apostles, you turn to the rabbis who got their tradition from the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Scribres.
A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?
Yah<Yahweh (etymologically, it is never attested, as the yah>yeh in the compound).
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2011, 05:18:06 PM »

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

This may be a good source to read: http://www.shema.com/messianic_judaism.php

Relating to the Yeshua question:

Quote
Why do we use the name “Yeshua” more often than “Jesus”?
Yeshua never heard the name “Jesus” in His lifetime! Yeshua is His given Hebrew name! It means “salvation” or “the Lord is salvation” (see Matthew 1:21). He was always called “Yeshua,” a common Hebrew name at that time. When Latin-speaking missionaries, who called the Messiah “Yesu,” brought the Good News to the British people, “Yesu” became “Jesus” in English.
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2011, 05:23:12 PM »

Quote
Yeshua never heard the name “Jesus” in His lifetime! Yeshua is His given Hebrew name! It means “salvation” or “the Lord is salvation” (see Matthew 1:21). He was always called “Yeshua,” a common Hebrew name at that time. When Latin-speaking missionaries, who called the Messiah “Yesu,” brought the Good News to the British people, “Yesu” became “Jesus” in English

Wow, it took all of 9 words to realize the writers of this had no clue of what he was talking about. Jesus probably heard the original greek version of his name quite a bit since Greek was the de facto language of the East.

The Brittish (correctly, the Brittons) had nothing to do with the name Jesus.

PP
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 05:43:50 PM »

Apparently some believe, if they even believe in the Trinity at all, that the Holy Spirit is female, and that there is subordination in the Trinity (3 ranks). They apparently justify the idea that the Holy Spirit is a "she" not only with appeals to Hebrew grammar, but by saying that Adam and Eve being in the image of God means there must be a female in God (in which case why wasn't it Adam, Stan, and Eve?).
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 05:50:55 PM »

Apparently some believe, if they even believe in the Trinity at all, that the Holy Spirit is female, and that there is subordination in the Trinity (3 ranks). They apparently justify the idea that the Holy Spirit is a "she" not only with appeals to Hebrew grammar, but by saying that Adam and Eve being in the image of God means there must be a female in God (in which case why wasn't it Adam, Stan, and Eve?).

A story of creation with Adam, Stan and Eve would be too graphic to be used in church.
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 10:39:31 PM »

Apparently some believe, if they even believe in the Trinity at all, that the Holy Spirit is female, and that there is subordination in the Trinity (3 ranks). They apparently justify the idea that the Holy Spirit is a "she" not only with appeals to Hebrew grammar, but by saying that Adam and Eve being in the image of God means there must be a female in God (in which case why wasn't it Adam, Stan, and Eve?).

sounds strikingly almost Gnostic to me.  I've heard many trying to equate Khochmah/Sophia (means "Wisdom") with the Holy Spirit..
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 10:43:29 PM »

The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.

Especially for converts. They like to read a lot and know everything already that the hymns are proclaiming at every service.

Seriously, I am lucky to go to a parish that evidently has a rather rich liturgical calendar of services we celebrate.

I can't imagine how much someone would miss out if they couldn't understand what was being sung. It is often very remarkable what is being sung. Not having to flip through a translation, just being able to do the already difficult task of being present and engaged in the corporate act of worship is difficult enough.

Even reading the texts outside their liturgical use is somehow different. I would rather have a sub-par English choir any day over some top notch Russian choir, if I am going for the latter, I am there for a concert. Not worship.

The American converts who pass up an English language parish to go some other route are just LARPing.

Can't imagine having gone through nearly every service offered over the last year and had to struggle as much as I have to only have to struggle with language as well.

Would've been greatly deprived.

I see what you're getting at orthonorm.  I am thinking about transferring to a jurisdiction that uses only English as well.  I have been Orthodox for about 5 months, can't imagine what my godmother might think.  However even if it is all completely in Greek, I still feel that God is there.  I partake of him in the Eucharist, and I feel renewed each time.  The priest still has Holy Confession in English, and there's still a lot of English that's used in my Greek church.   It also helps me to remember that Christianity is not a Western phenomenon, and to hear it in Hellenistic Greek is extraordinarily beautiful when you get the guy who can chant it properly. 

Also, I've noticed I've picked up on several Greek terms used in the liturgy as anyone would.  I may even choose to take Greek as a foreign language when I transfer to the University of Memphis.
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2011, 11:05:09 PM »

Wow, it took all of 9 words to realize the writers of this had no clue of what he was talking about. Jesus probably heard the original greek version of his name quite a bit since Greek was the de facto language of the East.

The Brittish (correctly, the Brittons) had nothing to do with the name Jesus.

PP

Well Messianic Jews are a bunch of occultists in my opinion.
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 01:06:57 AM »

The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.
Especially for converts. They like to read a lot and know everything already that the hymns are proclaiming at every service.

Seriously, I am lucky to go to a parish that evidently has a rather rich liturgical calendar of services we celebrate.

I can't imagine how much someone would miss out if they couldn't understand what was being sung. It is often very remarkable what is being sung. Not having to flip through a translation, just being able to do the already difficult task of being present and engaged in the corporate act of worship is difficult enough.

Even reading the texts outside their liturgical use is somehow different. I would rather have a sub-par English choir any day over some top notch Russian choir, if I am going for the latter, I am there for a concert. Not worship.

The American converts who pass up an English language parish to go some other route are just LARPing.

Can't imagine having gone through nearly every service offered over the last year and had to struggle as much as I have to only have to struggle with language as well.

Would've been greatly deprived.
I see what you're getting at orthonorm.  I am thinking about transferring to a jurisdiction that uses only English as well.  I have been Orthodox for about 5 months, can't imagine what my godmother might think.  However even if it is all completely in Greek, I still feel that God is there.  I partake of him in the Eucharist, and I feel renewed each time.  The priest still has Holy Confession in English, and there's still a lot of English that's used in my Greek church.   It also helps me to remember that Christianity is not a Western phenomenon, and to hear it in Hellenistic Greek is extraordinarily beautiful when you get the guy who can chant it properly. 

Also, I've noticed I've picked up on several Greek terms used in the liturgy as anyone would.  I may even choose to take Greek as a foreign language when I transfer to the University of Memphis.

I don't think that he was disparaging foreign-language parishes, but rather those who seek out everything foreign and exotic that Orthodoxy has to offer, rather than the Church itself. You are blessed where you are and I would discourage any movement at this point, as God has led you to where you are. Those "foreign" elements are only problematic when we begin to embrace them as some end to themselves. Those who actively seek out the Church as some form of escape from reality need to be corrected. I am truly blessed by the Serbian Church and her heritage and rich culture. But I am blessed to be at an all-English parish where I can benefit from understanding the fullness of the services.

But you are right, you have the fullness of Christ in the Eucharist and should be content to grow where you are. If at some point the language barrier seems to be some kind of an insurmountable spiritual hurtle, then it might be appropriate to approach your priest and see about going to another parish. But by simply staying put where God has placed us, we have a great opportunity to grow in humility and contentment.
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 04:51:52 AM »

The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.
Especially for converts. They like to read a lot and know everything already that the hymns are proclaiming at every service.

Seriously, I am lucky to go to a parish that evidently has a rather rich liturgical calendar of services we celebrate.

I can't imagine how much someone would miss out if they couldn't understand what was being sung. It is often very remarkable what is being sung. Not having to flip through a translation, just being able to do the already difficult task of being present and engaged in the corporate act of worship is difficult enough.

Even reading the texts outside their liturgical use is somehow different. I would rather have a sub-par English choir any day over some top notch Russian choir, if I am going for the latter, I am there for a concert. Not worship.

The American converts who pass up an English language parish to go some other route are just LARPing.

Can't imagine having gone through nearly every service offered over the last year and had to struggle as much as I have to only have to struggle with language as well.

Would've been greatly deprived.
I see what you're getting at orthonorm.  I am thinking about transferring to a jurisdiction that uses only English as well.  I have been Orthodox for about 5 months, can't imagine what my godmother might think.  However even if it is all completely in Greek, I still feel that God is there.  I partake of him in the Eucharist, and I feel renewed each time.  The priest still has Holy Confession in English, and there's still a lot of English that's used in my Greek church.   It also helps me to remember that Christianity is not a Western phenomenon, and to hear it in Hellenistic Greek is extraordinarily beautiful when you get the guy who can chant it properly. 

Also, I've noticed I've picked up on several Greek terms used in the liturgy as anyone would.  I may even choose to take Greek as a foreign language when I transfer to the University of Memphis.

I don't think that he was disparaging foreign-language parishes, but rather those who seek out everything foreign and exotic that Orthodoxy has to offer, rather than the Church itself. You are blessed where you are and I would discourage any movement at this point, as God has led you to where you are. Those "foreign" elements are only problematic when we begin to embrace them as some end to themselves. Those who actively seek out the Church as some form of escape from reality need to be corrected. I am truly blessed by the Serbian Church and her heritage and rich culture. But I am blessed to be at an all-English parish where I can benefit from understanding the fullness of the services.

But you are right, you have the fullness of Christ in the Eucharist and should be content to grow where you are. If at some point the language barrier seems to be some kind of an insurmountable spiritual hurtle, then it might be appropriate to approach your priest and see about going to another parish. But by simply staying put where God has placed us, we have a great opportunity to grow in humility and contentment.

Alveus is correct. In my bolded passage I meant those converts who eschew "American" Orthodoxy for the "Real Orthodoxy" in virtue of the exotic language and customs.

To the bolded passage in Alveus' comment:

A frequent message in the Desert Fathers is not to "jump around". Stay where you live, where you work, where you worship, with your Bible version, with your prayerbook, what calendar, which jurisdiction, etc.

Once this would have been geographic advice alone, nowadays, it is easy to get caught up in which translation of the Desert Fathers should I get. Maybe I will get all five, then compare them . . .

Hoping around has been a disaster for the most part in my life, except for al the great stories.

Get known, know, get bored, and stick with it.

Something I learned late in life in another context.

One of the few things I would tell myself when I was younger.

Choice kills freedom.

Enjoy your commitment.

 
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 12:57:50 PM »

It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?

This type of behavior seems to be all over the TV networks,particularly so called Christian networks, of the Word of Faith variety. You see preachers promoting Jewish sacramentalism, ex: using prayer shaws that the Rabbi's wear,and other off the wall stuff.
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 04:29:37 AM »

I know of this group pretty well my ex wife got hooked up with this group. They were after me cause I think besides me one other person there was a real Jew  Roll Eyes I was having none of it. The whole name thing yea that would be his name Yahsua in Hebrew and into  english would be Joshua. To me I know I'd be upset if everyone called me Steve if my name was John but thats me. Reform Jews even stay far far away from this group and there pretty close to being Christians  shhh don't tell them *reform jews*I said that  Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 08:18:41 AM »

The only people I know who are into this are also deep into the rapture and dispensationalism.  They also are into genealogy and work furiously to prove that they actually have traces of Hebrew blood in them, making them party to the first covenant as well as the second.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 08:52:10 AM »

I know of this group pretty well my ex wife got hooked up with this group. They were after me cause I think besides me one other person there was a real Jew  Roll Eyes I was having none of it. The whole name thing yea that would be his name Yahsua in Hebrew and into  english would be Joshua. To me I know I'd be upset if everyone called me Steve if my name was John but thats me. Reform Jews even stay far far away from this group and there pretty close to being Christians  shhh don't tell them *reform jews*I said that  Cheesy

I would be upset too if my name were John and folks called me Steve. However, if my name were James, which it is, I would not be upset at all if folks called me Iakavos, Yakov, Giacomo, Jaques, Iacomus, Jaime, Santiago, Diego, Seamus, Hamish, Ya'aqov, Ya'qub, or any other version of my name.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2011, 03:23:23 PM »

I know of this group pretty well my ex wife got hooked up with this group. They were after me cause I think besides me one other person there was a real Jew  Roll Eyes I was having none of it. The whole name thing yea that would be his name Yahsua in Hebrew and into  english would be Joshua. To me I know I'd be upset if everyone called me Steve if my name was John but thats me. Reform Jews even stay far far away from this group and there pretty close to being Christians  shhh don't tell them *reform jews*I said that  Cheesy

I would be upset too if my name were John and folks called me Steve. However, if my name were James, which it is, I would not be upset at all if folks called me Iakavos, Yakov, Giacomo, Jaques, Iacomus, Jaime, Santiago, Diego, Seamus, Hamish, Ya'aqov, Ya'qub, or any other version of my name.

Why?

A guy at work called me Brian for about two years. I couldn't wait till he found out my real name and see how he would deal with it.

He just started calling me by my "real" name one day.

I lived around the corner from this kepab place. I called the guy Freed and he called me Jesse. Neither were our names.

Everyone asked why he called me Jesse, I said I don't know, but I do know his name ain't Freed.

Spent probably a good 300 hours in the place over the course of a few years. Never changed.

We got a long famously. He spoke 132 words of English and 247 words of German.

We both understood Döner and Bier. Those was the only names that truly mattered in the relationship.

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« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 09:00:25 AM »

I know of this group pretty well my ex wife got hooked up with this group. They were after me cause I think besides me one other person there was a real Jew  Roll Eyes I was having none of it. The whole name thing yea that would be his name Yahsua in Hebrew and into  english would be Joshua. To me I know I'd be upset if everyone called me Steve if my name was John but thats me. Reform Jews even stay far far away from this group and there pretty close to being Christians  shhh don't tell them *reform jews*I said that  Cheesy

I would be upset too if my name were John and folks called me Steve. However, if my name were James, which it is, I would not be upset at all if folks called me Iakavos, Yakov, Giacomo, Jaques, Iacomus, Jaime, Santiago, Diego, Seamus, Hamish, Ya'aqov, Ya'qub, or any other version of my name.

Why?

Well, yeah, come to think of it I wouldn't really be upset. The only thing I don't like to be called is Jim, or especially Jimbo. My point was simply that there is a huge difference in terms of respect between calling someone a totally different name and calling them by a cognate of their name.

Quote
We both understood Döner and Bier. Those was the only names that truly mattered in the relationship.
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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 10:34:36 AM »

I know of this group pretty well my ex wife got hooked up with this group. They were after me cause I think besides me one other person there was a real Jew  Roll Eyes I was having none of it. The whole name thing yea that would be his name Yahsua in Hebrew and into  english would be Joshua. To me I know I'd be upset if everyone called me Steve if my name was John but thats me. Reform Jews even stay far far away from this group and there pretty close to being Christians  shhh don't tell them *reform jews*I said that  Cheesy

I would be upset too if my name were John and folks called me Steve. However, if my name were James, which it is, I would not be upset at all if folks called me Iakavos, Yakov, Giacomo, Jaques, Iacomus, Jaime, Santiago, Diego, Seamus, Hamish, Ya'aqov, Ya'qub, or any other version of my name.

Why?

Well, yeah, come to think of it I wouldn't really be upset. The only thing I don't like to be called is Jim, or especially Jimbo. My point was simply that there is a huge difference in terms of respect between calling someone a totally different name and calling them by a cognate of their name.

Quote
We both understood Döner and Bier. Those was the only names that truly mattered in the relationship.
Smiley


No need, to explain. I knew what you meant. I had to fake misunderstanding so I could talk about myself more. //:=)

There are actually things I would hit people for calling me. Jimbo would be indeed be one.

Srsly. Jim though?

If I were a James: Jimmy and Jimbo would not be cool.

I just gotta constantly remind people my name consists of two syllables.
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 10:43:14 AM »

Actually, they are British.

And, they had nothing to do with 'Jehovah,' which came from the Germans.   Cheesy



The Brittish (correctly, the Brittons) had nothing to do with the name Jesus.

PP
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 10:51:10 AM »

The priest still has Holy Confession in English

I must admit, I would not lament the slightest bit over having to do this with a priest who didn't speak a word of english.
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 10:56:08 AM »

What's even stranger is that these folks have no idea about where Judaism has gone in the last 2,000 theologically speaking.  I'm reading a book on medieval Judaism (16th-17th centuries) and it is filled with all sorts of strange ideas regarding transmigration of souls, reincarnation, etc.  And, these were not isolated beliefs, but universal to Judaism at the time.  Christians who want to crow about Jewish 'roots' ought to read a bit of the history.

Modern Judaism is very, very different from the Judaism of even 500 years ago.  My suspicion is that most 'Messianic Jews' are attached to a very modern and very relaxed form of Judaism.


It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 11:14:11 AM »

I have a friend who grew up in one of these hybrid groups, and she said that to the person the young people who grew up in the cult with her have left the faith altogether. While that's mostly par for the course for any church, I think it says something when you can't brainwash a single child into thinking they should stick around.
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 11:15:47 AM »

What's even stranger is that these folks have no idea about where Judaism has gone in the last 2,000 theologically speaking.  I'm reading a book on medieval Judaism (16th-17th centuries) and it is filled with all sorts of strange ideas regarding transmigration of souls, reincarnation, etc.  And, these were not isolated beliefs, but universal to Judaism at the time.  Christians who want to crow about Jewish 'roots' ought to read a bit of the history.

Modern Judaism is very, very different from the Judaism of even 500 years ago.  My suspicion is that most 'Messianic Jews' are attached to a very modern and very relaxed form of Judaism.

My experience is that they are out-and-out creating their own Judiasm, partly out of the OT, partly out of their selected readings of certain Rabbis and partly out of their former Evangelical bias.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2011, 10:04:59 PM »

What's even stranger is that these folks have no idea about where Judaism has gone in the last 2,000 theologically speaking.  I'm reading a book on medieval Judaism (16th-17th centuries) and it is filled with all sorts of strange ideas regarding transmigration of souls, reincarnation, etc.  And, these were not isolated beliefs, but universal to Judaism at the time.  Christians who want to crow about Jewish 'roots' ought to read a bit of the history.

Modern Judaism is very, very different from the Judaism of even 500 years ago.  My suspicion is that most 'Messianic Jews' are attached to a very modern and very relaxed form of Judaism.


It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?
That's Kabbalah teaching with th transmigration of souls, reincarnation it's now more of a sect close to charismatics in the Christian side
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2011, 02:00:10 AM »

The more exotic and less familiar the better. This is also an Orthodox dogma, so it is an area of shared belief.
What do you mean about an area of shared belief?

Also, there are a lot of traditional trinitarian Messianics as well. Let's not give quite the bad rap to them. They lack proper ecclesiology in terms of the change in power in the worship body, but they are not all off the wall and at least some have a good approach to their religion/faith, all-be-it slightly misguided. I've taken a course on Hebraic theology through one of the organizations, as well as attended a number of services with friends of mine.
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2011, 09:54:29 PM »

To echo DennyB a little, judaizing and Word of Faith are both creeping their way into popular Evangelicism. Whether individual evangelicals realize it or not, and whether or not they realize the significance of it, much of their day-to-day theological lingo is being shaped by the Word of Faith camp. Judaizing normally goes hand-in-hand with WoF, but not every Judaizer is WoF. Come to think of it, WoF tends to absorb other heresies like a sponge. Why it's happening is beyond me. My wife is on a "mothering" message board and she shows me threads of women talking about their judaizing, and it's absolutely rampant on that board.

Sadly, heresy breeds heresy.
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 05:28:33 AM »

At one point in time (a very short period) I was thinking of becoming a Messianic Jew. I had attended a few Jewish services with a buddy of mine while in training at Ft. Leonard Wood and I felt more spiritually alive with the liturgical service than I did in any Protestant church. I think the traditional aspect called out to me and I realized that there was a longing inside of me to return to ancient Christianity. I thought that perhaps by becoming a Messianic I would be as close as possible to the roots of the Church, whilst still staying far away from anything Roman - to include the EO church as well (which I did not want to admit was anything similar to the early Church nor had anything to do with the early Church).

Now, knowing what I know and with previous bias behind me I can not help but to think that perhaps those that choose to be Messianics are probably in the same boat I was: a Protestant reaching out for a traditional church similar to the Church of the Apostolic age while still being suspicious of anything thought to be Roman.
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« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2011, 02:57:24 PM »

I did a report on these guys for a World Religion course. It seemed contrived, and almost none of them were ever Jewish in any way.
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« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2011, 03:29:47 PM »

True. Some of their ministers are even calling themselves Rabbis nowadays, and doing podcasts about the weekly 'Parsha,' which is the Torah reading.  Shocked One wonders how they manage to make the leap to the New Testament. With these groups, there is so much making it up as you go along, it's almost a fantasy novel.
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« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2011, 04:39:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Its a classic circle that enters the Church and Christian in cycles based upon our Jewish roots and the Old Testament.  Christians revert to Old Testament and Jewish practices to legitimize their Christianity in the context of the Old Testament. 

I think the Protestants, Evangelicals, etc etc become these increasingly more Jewish Jesus Christians because they lack the structure, authority, and legitimacy of the Church as a social institution, and further they have deprived themselves of many tangible aspects of worship.  When you combine this with a "sola scripture" philosophy it is entirely predictable that folks would misinterpret Christianity and delve to deeply into Jewish practices.  We in the Church know the Holy Spirit is in the Church, not the Jews, so we know we can only understand the deep mysteries of the Old Testament Scriptures through the Church, not the Jews.  Christians who reject the authority of the Church, naturally revert back to the original authorities, those Jews who used to debate us up and down in the Acts.  It seems rather silly to me, a fad, which is accentuated by this Zionism and Israeli situation, where these Christians are accordingly brow-beaten from the pulpit to politically support Zionism, and distort the Scriptures to support Zionism, and equate Zionism with being a true Christian, and when you get twisted in this kind of confusion, it is easy to see folks look for more and more Jewish identity, because they are really becoming Jews more than Christians.  That is the heart of these kinds of movements, political Zionism which reinforces and itself is enforced by religious pseudo-Christian Zionism which asserts that the Jews remain the Promised people, and that the Covenant wasn't trasnferred to the Church.  It seems so sad to me that folks would rather be crypto-Jewish Evangelical Christians rather than just come back the Church, who as Paul asserts is the true "Israel of God."

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« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2011, 05:36:02 PM »

At one point in time (a very short period) I was thinking of becoming a Messianic Jew. I had attended a few Jewish services with a buddy of mine while in training at Ft. Leonard Wood and I felt more spiritually alive with the liturgical service than I did in any Protestant church. I think the traditional aspect called out to me and I realized that there was a longing inside of me to return to ancient Christianity. I thought that perhaps by becoming a Messianic I would be as close as possible to the roots of the Church, whilst still staying far away from anything Roman - to include the EO church as well (which I did not want to admit was anything similar to the early Church nor had anything to do with the early Church).

Now, knowing what I know and with previous bias behind me I can not help but to think that perhaps those that choose to be Messianics are probably in the same boat I was: a Protestant reaching out for a traditional church similar to the Church of the Apostolic age while still being suspicious of anything thought to be Roman.
This post definitely describes who I was around 20.

Many of the Charismatics in my church were definitely flirting with Judaism....hardcore Zionists at the very least. My university hosted seder dinners for the Jewish students, and half of the students from my church were always in attendance. We didn't think it was weird at all.

At one point, when I started becoming disenchanted with my church and the charismatic movement in general, I seriously considered Messianic Judaism. I wore a necklace with a cross and a star of David. I started (barely started) studying the Jewish holidays. I learned the Hebraic alphabet.

Like dcommini said, I realized that it was tradition that I wanted. And as a baptized Roman Catholic who didn't want to go back to the church, I didn't seriously consider Orthodoxy as an option for several years.
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2011, 12:37:27 AM »

I did a report on these guys for a World Religion course. It seemed contrived, and almost none of them were ever Jewish in any way.
The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations requires that member congregations have boards with at least 50% of the members of Jewish blood. My local synagogue is about 40% Jewish.
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« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2011, 01:04:27 AM »

It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I think you're mistaken to think there's one, unified Hebrew Roots movement. Actually, there are many Messianic groups, some Trinitarian (e.g., the MJAA and UMJC) and others cultish. The MJAA synagogue I attend enjoys good relations with Catholic, Protestant, and Pentecostal churches in the area.

You mentioned a couple of things that you find confusing and annoying among Messianics. Frankly, I prefer using the name Paul wherever the underlying Greek text has it. But Dr. David Stearn, translator of the Complete Jewish Bible and author of the Jewish New Testament Commentary, prefers the name Shaul as a way of emphasizing Paul's Jewishness. He defends this preference at length in his comments about Acts 13:9, where he notes that Paul or Shaul remained an observant Jew (Acts 16:3; 17:2; 18:18; 20:16; 21:23-27; 25:8; 28:17) and even a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Philippians 3:5).

The MJAA doesn't claim that Yeshua isn't Jesus although its members prefer the name Yeshua to Jesus primarily because of the Messiah's Jewishness. Personally, I try to follow Paul's example of being all things to all men (1 Corinthians 9:19-23); therefore, I speak of Jesus around Gentiles and Yeshua among other Messianics and Jews.

The names Yahshua and Yahushua are common among a different movement, the Sacred Name Movement, which is also diverse. Some Sacred Namers are Trinitarian; others are Arian or even Sabellian. From what I've read, the Messiah's name was Yehoshua or Yeshua in Hebrew. So far as I can tell, the names Yahshua and Yahushua date back only to the 1930s.

The Messianic Judaism of the MJAA is best described as Biblical Judaism. It follows the guidelines in the TaNaKH (Old Testament) and in the Brit Chadasha (New Testament), but not the practices peculiar to the Talmud, etc.
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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2011, 06:19:17 AM »

I suppose Ive always found it odd that some of these messianic types (not all though most in my opinion) want to enforce the old testament law onto everyone while not taking it all for themselves. Planting grops in a certain way, wearing clothes of one material and the like. No it always has to be the sabbath and Kosher, yet they will almost all of them say you don't have to be circumsised because of the apostles ruling. Yet the apostles did not explicitely tell us to keep the sabbath (though they most likely kept it theirselves) or Kosher (again probably keeping it themselves) and infact the latter fathers whom knew the apostles agree with this thought that these things arent necessarily kept, St Ignatius amongst them. What laws apply? and how do we know? Seems to me purely arbitrary.

But the weirdest thing to me is that they accept Non Christian jewish post Christ literature and writers but often condemn the fathers (again not all messianics but most if not all ive met). And as often as they do this when it is pointed out that it was those same fathers and the church they subscribed to (orthodoxy) that preserved scripture for us today. But i've even ran into one or two that claim a secret true transmission of the new testament and that they actually are the same Ebionite and Nazerene Heretics throughout history. Others like protestants say God just used the corrupt church to preserve scripture.

Thats not even going into the whole sacred name movement and fiasco (he was not called Jesus! That's a pagan name for Zeus! They often say)

Bizzare is an understatement.
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2011, 06:59:34 PM »

I suppose Ive always found it odd that some of these messianic types (not all though most in my opinion) want to enforce the old testament law onto everyone while not taking it all for themselves. Planting grops in a certain way, wearing clothes of one material and the like. No it always has to be the sabbath and Kosher, yet they will almost all of them say you don't have to be circumsised because of the apostles ruling. Yet the apostles did not explicitely tell us to keep the sabbath (though they most likely kept it theirselves) or Kosher (again probably keeping it themselves) and infact the latter fathers whom knew the apostles agree with this thought that these things arent necessarily kept, St Ignatius amongst them. What laws apply? and how do we know? Seems to me purely arbitrary.

But the weirdest thing to me is that they accept Non Christian jewish post Christ literature and writers but often condemn the fathers (again not all messianics but most if not all ive met).
And as often as they do this when it is pointed out that it was those same fathers and the church they subscribed to (orthodoxy) that preserved scripture for us today. But i've even ran into one or two that claim a secret true transmission of the new testament and that they actually are the same Ebionite and Nazerene Heretics throughout history. Others like protestants say God just used the corrupt church to preserve scripture.

Thats not even going into the whole sacred name movement and fiasco (he was not called Jesus! That's a pagan name for Zeus! They often say)

Bizzare is an understatement.

MyMapleStory, I really appreciate the spirit of your post. As to which laws apply, I think--and it's just my personal opinion--that God left areas of doubt as a test so that we may show whether we will welcome one another in the body of the Messiah or involve ourselves in disputes about doubtful things.

I share your concern about some Messianics' acceptance and use of literature (e.g., Talmud, Zohar) produced by Christ-rejecting Jews hundreds or even thousands of years after the Messiah's earthly ministry. As to church fathers, I've been greatly impressed by many of their insights. Some Messianics have overreacted by ignoring the teachings of godly Christians. Rather than slander those saints, I try to remember our Lord's warning, "Every idle [careless, useless] word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy word thou shalt be condemned" (Matthew 12:36-37 Authorized Version).
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2011, 11:49:42 PM »

It seems the so-called messianic/Hebrew Roots heresy has really been taking off, at least on the Internet. We even have a few posters on here who seem to lean in that direction.

How does this movement even justify it's bizarre beliefs/practices? Much of what it teaches seems directly and explicitly contradictory to the New Testament.

A couple things that really confuse and annoy me, though, are the insistence on calling Paul, 'Shaul' even though he clearly preferred to be called Paul; and the whole 'Yeshua'-not-Jesus thing, which gets even weirder with 'Yahshua'. Where on earth are they getting this Yahshua business?

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I think you're mistaken to think there's one, unified Hebrew Roots movement. Actually, there are many Messianic groups, some Trinitarian (e.g., the MJAA and UMJC) and others cultish. The MJAA synagogue I attend enjoys good relations with Catholic, Protestant, and Pentecostal churches in the area.

You mentioned a couple of things that you find confusing and annoying among Messianics. Frankly, I prefer using the name Paul wherever the underlying Greek text has it. But Dr. David Stearn, translator of the Complete Jewish Bible and author of the Jewish New Testament Commentary, prefers the name Shaul as a way of emphasizing Paul's Jewishness. He defends this preference at length in his comments about Acts 13:9, where he notes that Paul or Shaul remained an observant Jew (Acts 16:3; 17:2; 18:18; 20:16; 21:23-27; 25:8; 28:17) and even a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Philippians 3:5).

The MJAA doesn't claim that Yeshua isn't Jesus although its members prefer the name Yeshua to Jesus primarily because of the Messiah's Jewishness. Personally, I try to follow Paul's example of being all things to all men (1 Corinthians 9:19-23); therefore, I speak of Jesus around Gentiles and Yeshua among other Messianics and Jews.

The names Yahshua and Yahushua are common among a different movement, the Sacred Name Movement, which is also diverse. Some Sacred Namers are Trinitarian; others are Arian or even Sabellian. From what I've read, the Messiah's name was Yehoshua or Yeshua in Hebrew. So far as I can tell, the names Yahshua and Yahushua date back only to the 1930s.

The Messianic Judaism of the MJAA is best described as Biblical Judaism. It follows the guidelines in the TaNaKH (Old Testament) and in the Brit Chadasha (New Testament), but not the practices peculiar to the Talmud, etc.
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« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2011, 12:24:19 AM »


Where are your bishops?

There's a hierarchy in the MJAA and in its licensing organization, the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS). A new rabbi is accountable to at least one experienced rabbi, and congregations must be approved by the IAMCS. There are means for handling appeals, complaints, and disciplinary matters.
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« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2011, 12:55:17 PM »


Where are your bishops?

There's a hierarchy in the MJAA and in its licensing organization, the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS). A new rabbi is accountable to at least one experienced rabbi, and congregations must be approved by the IAMCS. There are means for handling appeals, complaints, and disciplinary matters.
I think what Isa is referring to is not a governing body, but Episcopal authority and Apostolic Succession.

PP
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2011, 01:20:33 PM »

I was at a wedding about a year ago. The groom's family are all from Texas and speak with a twang. I was seated at the reception with one of his uncles. His head was covered and he had tzitzit ( ropes that are usually attached to a Jewish Prayer Shawl or special garments) hanging from his belt.

I asked his son if his Dad was Jewish. He said he was. Turns out he fancies himself as some sort of Messianic Christian. He isnt in a Group.... just came to the conclusion that Christians should also practice Judaism.

 I'm a Jew who has converted to Orthodoxy. He's a Texas born Gentile who runs around posing as Jewish... Nice enough guy.. Made my head hurt.

Shalom Y'all    
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2011, 01:28:08 PM »

I was at a wedding about a year ago. The groom's family are all from Texas and speak with a twang. I was seated at the reception with one of his uncles. His head was covered and he had tzitzit ( ropes that are usually attached to a Jewish Prayer Shawl or special garments) hanging from his belt.

I asked his son if his Dad was Jewish. He said he was. Turns out he fancies himself as some sort of Messianic Christian. He isnt in a Group.... just came to the conclusion that Christians should also practice Judaism.

 I'm a Jew who has converted to Orthodoxy. He's a Texas born Gentile who runs around posing as Jewish... Nice enough guy.. Made my head hurt.

Shalom Y'all    

So I guess going to him for a famous Texas a pork BBQ recipe is a no no......

PP
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« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2011, 01:43:25 PM »

When the Nativity Fast is over, invite him to your local church, and then for some nice chicken or fish. Everybody likes chicken or fish.  Wink
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« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2011, 02:49:35 PM »

The whole point that everyone is missing I think is that this movement is going to be around and will keep growing an getting stronger for two reasons.
1 This movement is set for what I like to call Hybrids ( people who are mixed Jew an Gentile) this group of people don't really fit into the religious pie so nice an neatly. The Jews say there not a Jew and turn them away but they get beat up with slurs from the Gentiles that want to put them in the same class of all Jews. They had no choice but to group together to make a safe place of worship.

2 This group is also set to try an convert Jews over to Christ with out the history of the Church which in the past has done out right an back door damage to the Jews. A strong rooted Jew who even thought or came to know Jesus as such would not really ever want to step foot inside a Church ( When I say Church here like most people Jews think Catholic )

Now if we look at the two main points as to way this movement is here an growing it seams to all come down to two things as well HATE an Politics.

until the Church steps up an deals with it's past history an comes clean this an other movements like this will grow an get stronger.
 
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