Topic: Lutheran converting to EO

[Slotte]

I come from a protestant background , but I've found the EO theology to be remarkably more well done. (If I in the future can start reading theology, I will not be able to study at an orthodox seminar, but it'll be lutheran, because I have to use mainly swedish as study-language, and there are no swedish-language orthodox seminars in Finland, instead I'll probably be studying on the orthodox seminar in finnish later on, starting in something like 2011 at earliest.)

So..., how could or should I deal w/ intercessions? It's kind of problematic for me. This issue is purhaps not in a hurry, because I will not be able to change my membership anyway until I move to Finland (there's no EO church around where I live in Sweden). (Note: I live in both Sweden & Finland.)

[prodromos]

Did I tell you I was quarter Swedish?

Think of intercession as building up love between members of the church, the body of Christ. We pray for each other because we care about each other and we take great comfort in knowing that others are praying for us, so all in all intercession binds us together in love.
Now extend that picture of the church militant to include the church triumphant, for we are one body, not two. Our seeking the prayers of those saints who stand in the very presence of God helps us first to develop a relationship with them and then to grow in love for them, especially when we see the results of their prayers for us, plus it allows them to become personally involved in our own spiritual growth.

This is how I see things. I hope it is helpful.

John.

[Mor Ephrem]

Slotte, did you mean "intercession" (along the lines of what John spoke of), or "inter-session" (as in the period in between leaving Lutheranism and joining the Orthodox Church)?  I am not sure which you mean.

[Slotte]

Mor Ephrem, I mean along the lines of what John spoke of

prodromos Did I tell you I was quarter Swedish

Do you know in what part of Sweden that ancestor lived? I'm what they call "finlandssvensk", we have lived for hundreds of years in Finland, but we still have swedish as a mothers tongue, and many of us, like I, have both swedish and finnish as mothers tongues. So I'm Finnish, but on paper I changed my nationality to Sweden for avoiding having to go the army.

prodromos Now extend that picture of the church militant to include the church triumphant, for we are one body, not two. Our seeking the prayers of those saints who stand in the very presence of God helps us first to develop a relationship with them and then to grow in love for them

I knew about that, but exactly that issue is the one which is really though for me to convert to Being one body doesn't seem all too relevant for convincing me, even though I know it's a strong argument; and understanding why the saints want to pray for people, confuses me. I'm not the kind who is most likely to resist changing his mind, but since I was a child I have often, not always, been like this that I try to be careful before I change my mind. On the other hand, I actually don't demand gapless proof, I get convinced enough and change my mind because I count on probability and think that my old view is more erred

[Brendan03]

A group of Finnish Lutheran theologians have published an interesting collection of essays about the relationship between Lutheran theology and Eastern Orthodox theology.  Well worth reading for anyone, and I would think of particular interest to someone in your position.

The title is "Union With Christ: The New Finnish Interpretation of Luther".

B

[The young fogey]

God dag, Slotte,

Perhaps you've seen this favourite prayer of mine from the daily morning prayers in the Byzantine Rite:

My most merciful and all-merciful God, Lord Jesu Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and take flesh to save all. And again, O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee, for if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty. Indeed, in Thy infinite compassion and unspeakable mercy, Thou O my Christ hast said: Whoever believes in Me shall live and never see death. If faith in Thee saves the desperate, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Impute my faith instead of deeds, O my God, for Thou wilt find no deeds which could justify me, but may my faith suffice for all my deeds. May it answer for and acquit me, and may it make me a partaker of Thy eternal glory. And may satan not seize me, O Word, and boast that he has torn me from Thy hand and fold. O Christ, my Saviour, whether I will or not, save me. Make haste, quick, quick, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother's womb. Grant me, O Lord, to love Thee now as once I loved sin, and also to work for Thee without idleness, as I worked before for deceptive satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

The ostensible issue that started the Protestant revolt - faith vs. works - was a nonissue. The answer was in the great tradition all along - no need to revolt. I feel for Martin Luther: I feel sorry for him. If only he knew better.

BTW, a beautiful book explaining the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy and Communion is Feast of Faith by retired Archbishop Paul of Finland.

I knew of the Swedish minority in Finland - never read anything from one before. Tack... och vilkommen! (I can read maybe about 15 words in svenska.)

[Fr. David]

You might find something helpful from this previous thread.

[prodromos]

Do you know in what part of Sweden that ancestor lived? I'm what they call "finlandssvensk", we have lived for hundreds of years in Finland, but we still have swedish as a mothers tongue, and many of us, like I, have both swedish and finnish as mothers tongues.

Well I just called my mum in Australia and she told me that her dad's family emigrated from Karlshamn in the South East of Sweden, but they were apparently originally from B+Ñstad, just below Halmstad in the South West. His family name was Persson, although for some reason relatives in Sweden deny this. My mum never really got an explanation when she was visiting there as she speaks no Swedish and few of her relatives in Sweden spoke English (they laughed a lot ). Most of the relatives in Sweden that we know of are Holgerts.

You now know as much as I do about my Swedish roots

John.

[Andreas]

Another quarter Swede over here. *WAVES*

[Slotte]

Thanks all, I almost understand now, the one aspect left for me to understand, is why the saints would have such supernatural qualifications as to be able to hear individuals prayers on earth

[prodromos]

Thanks all, I almost understand now, the one aspect left for me to understand, is why the saints would have such supernatural qualifications as to be able to hear individuals prayers on earth

I guess the simple answer is that the saints have become supernatural. By being united to Christ, the God-man, we share in His nature, and we become by grace what God is by nature. Since God is uncreated, He is by His very nature above His creation, though being everywhere and in everything He is also outside of every dimension of creation including time.
While most of us will not manage to put off our old flesh completely in this life, there have been saints who have so much put on Christ in this life that they have been able to see things outside of time and space. Elder monk Paisios of Mount Athos was like this and especially Elder Porphyrios who often saw Past and Future events as if they were in the Present. He could "see" underground water reserviors and was able to tell people where to drill and exactly how deep.
Just as Past and Future can be compressed into Now from an eternal viewpoint, so too can a million simultaneous prayers be expanded and dealt with individually.

Does this make sense to you?

John.

[Augustine]

Slotte,

Thanks all, I almost understand now, the one aspect left for me to understand, is why the saints would have such supernatural qualifications as to be able to hear individuals prayers on earth

Christ is true God and true man.  He's not "half" one, or "half" the other, but both, without confusion (for if there were confusion, if He were not "two natures" but "one nature", then we could no longer justly claim He was fully both.)  As such, His humanity is overflowing with divine grace, and itself takes on "Godly" qualities, without of course ceasing to be truly human.  This is particularly so after His Ressurection, for by His own decision prior to this He humbled Himself and did not manifest all of these "God-Man" qualities (hence, being able to taste suffering, even death.)  This is the great "kenosis" or "self-emptying" spoken of by St.Paul (Philippians 2:6-7).

Well, Orthodox Christians are those who are struggling in the Church Christ founded - and they are those who are being assimilated into Christ.  This begins with their Holy Baptism, but the increase of this assimilation is a never ending reality, if the person perseveres.  This includes the assimilation of those "God-Man" qualities.  This is why those the Church liturgically commemorates and publically recognizes as "saints" (holy ones) manifested extraordinary capacities even before reposing in the Lord.   They typically manifested varying degrees of clairvoyance, able to read the hearts of others - they often entered the state of "theoria" (vision of God) in which the laws of the physical world simply stopped applying to them, or at least in all of their awful corrosiveness (like St.Seraphim of Sarov who prayed for a thousand days and nights, straight upon a rock in the woods, or St.Herman of Alaska who was able to physically do and endure things simply impossible for a man of his size and age.)  In addition, even the relics of these Saints, manifest inexplicable qualities - they do not putrify or decompose like the bodies of most people, sometimes not even for centuries on end, and it's not unusual for them to in fact smell like fragrant myrh, and even gush myrh resin with healing properties.

The point is these men, being participants of the Risen Saviour, are themselves glorifed by their Lord.  Thus, if they've gone to reign with Him in His Kingdom, it is perfectly "reasonable" that they have capacities for hearing and being present to people beyond anything we can fathom.  To doubt this, would be much like doubting just how it can be that the Lord Jesus Christ, can be truly present under the appearances of bread and wine in so many places, at so many times, in so much quantity?  Has Christ increased physically?  At most, He is 6ft tall and of average (if sturdy) build, if we use the Iconographic tradition and the Holy Shroud (currently in Turin - it was once in Hagia Sophia before the Crusaders looted it) as a guide.  It's like the paradoxical question - in the Divine Liturgy, is Golgotha being repeated, or are we going to Golgotha?  For the Holy Oblation occurs in the Eucharist (and there are many such celebrations at any given time, in many places), yet we know as a dogmatic certainty that Christ suffers no more, and that He died but once.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  (St.Matthew 28:18)

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Apocalypse 22:16)

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star. (Apocalypse 2:26-28)

Truly, God's saints (above all those who are glorified both in heaven and on earth because of their great sanctity) reign with Him.

[Slotte]

prodromos Oh sure, that explanation makes a point.

I love EO, (and OO is somehow similar in this aspect altough I don't believe the OO theology), because it feels so genuine that it's a pleasure to convert to! (This I haven't experienced many times before, only once when converting from pentecostal to Lutheran.
I've been converting through many steps, because it was a long way to go, as a little child I was pentecostal for many years, then I was Word of Faith for many years, then I made a nice conversion back to being pentecostal. These denominations were mered with errors, so I made a very decisive and strong conversion to being Lutheran. Now you would think that my mind just switches, but my conversions have not been like switching! When I've converted, I've just been thinking throughly and discovering my faith more and/or reaching a more deep or more throughly defined faith, and in that way through steps finding the denomination that matches what I've believed in for many years, even ten years, or longer.
As I've allready written, I will be forced to study at a Lutheran seminar in the (still distant) future)

[4Truth]

Dear Slotte,

You probably have visited this website already; however, if you have not, perhaps this information will be of interest:

What I have included will link you with information from more than one Orthodox jurisdiction that has parishes in Sweden.  Please, please, trust in God, and do NOT let yourself be thrown from your path by disagreements among the various jurisdictions.  Sometimes a potential convert abandons Orthodoxy when he or she learns that we are not "one, undivided, jolly monolith".  Satan rejoices when this deflects a seeker from the truth of the Orthodox faith.  I will pray that this does not happen to you.  
____________

http://tkk.joensuu.fi/avoin/orthod/index.htm

The "basic study unit" of 15 CU is designed for correspondence study.
________________________


Orthodox Europe
ORTHODOX SWEDEN
 
For information regarding the Orthodox Church in Sweden and services in Swedish, please contact:

Archimandrite Matias (Norstrom),
Kristi Forklarings Ortodoxa Kyrka,
Birger Jarlsgatan 98,
10432 Stockholm,
SWEDEN

(Tel: 00 46 8 156316)
________________________

Also:  http://ortodoxakyrkan.se/omort/index.htm

http://www.sweden.orthodoxy.ru/

http://www.rilaeu.com/s1bgeu.htm

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/servsigf.htm

________________________

Before I converted to the Orthodox faith, I gave strong consideration to Lutheranism because, at that time (in the U.S.A.),  the services seemed reverent, and the theology felt both "well organized" and "serious".  (Glory and thanks to God that He led me to keep searching!)

May your journey to Christ be blessed!

4Truth
 

[Slotte]

Thanks, Augustine, Serge, prodromos, and Pedro, now I believe in intercessions, I'm also thankfull to the book Faith[...something, I don't remember, not the one Serge mentioned, but thinner, by Archbishop Paul], and my local Church here in Oulu.

4Truth What I have included will link you with information from more than one Orthodox jurisdiction that has parishes in Sweden.
[...]
http://ortodoxakyrkan.se/omort/index.htm

The first trains to Stockholm at sunday mornings, arrive at 1.53 PM, we have outstanding train connections in Sweden, from my village too, but it is 99 mile (159 km) to Stockholm. Another obstacle, purhaps not hindering, is that there's no Swedish autokefality/metropolit/archimandrite/diocese to actually mention, even though it's estimated that 200.000 EO+OO Christians live in Sweden, there is no authorative church, only ethnical parishes, and archimandrite Matias' effort hasn't gained any acceptance nor got wide-spread, for reasons...
I've read a whole book, written in '98, on the subject of EO and OO parishes in Sweden. No worries though, I live half the time in Finland, in the 'far' north Oulu, where I have a Finnish-Orthodox Church at 1-+ mile (2-+ km) distance from home

trust in God, and do NOT let yourself be thrown from your path by disagreements among the various jurisdictions[...]
[...] deflects a seeker from the truth of the Orthodox faith.  I will pray that this does not happen to you.

Thanks, nice of you to pray for me, although the risk is perhaps not high

http://tkk.joensuu.fi/avoin/orthod/index.htm
The "basic study unit" of 15 CU is designed for correspondence

Thanks for the direct link, I've visited the main site. Purhaps they ease a bit on the entrance requirements to the correspondance studies compared to the requirements for studies at the seminar

www.sweden.orthodoxy.ru   www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/servsigf.htm

Those are very nice links. You giving me the sweden.orthodoxy link made me find the V+ñster+Ñs Russian-Orthodox parish (+ûrebro (Oerebro) and V+ñster+Ñs (Vaesteraas) are the closest cities), which is rather hard to find otherwise (no webpage in Sweden, nothing in the up to date swedish internet phone directory). The only problem is that the trains are probably not early enough, they arrive to V+ñster+Ñs centre at 0.51 PM, and probably the service starts at 11 AM