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Author Topic: Comming to Eastern Orthodox Church is a serious step for eternity  (Read 3681 times) Average Rating: 0
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pasadi97
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« on: August 22, 2011, 12:31:22 PM »

Comming to Eastern Orthodox Church, the Church of your ancestors for 1000 years is totally different from going from One Protestant Church and having symbol of Holy Communion to another Where you have words instead of Holy Communion. God is in Eastern Orthodox Church . Priests are ordained and have Holy Spirit. You can see throug microscope water changing molecular shapes when EOC priests ask GOD to bless te Water. You see God being active in this Church. This is Church of God.

So comming to the Church established by Jesus, Eastern Orthodox Church is a serious step. You get the best of religion World. You get baptism for entrance to Heaven and Holy Communion for eternal life. You get tree of eternal life. You are accepted into the Church that exists into Heaven.

Leaving the Church of God can be a grave sin. It is out of question for many Eastern Orthodox that know theology and many had simply died rather to leave the Church established by God and move into error. They died and went to Heaven rather than live and go to Hell. Romanian history is full of such people. So just to let you know. Leaving the Church established by God were God is present is different from leaving a Protestant Church. I want to go to Hell because some people behave unright. I want to go to Hell because some people around me had fallen to some superstitions. This is out of question. It is in your own interest to continue to go to the right path. Even if ALL people around youn will fall into superstition and behave unjustly you have to be EOC because EOC is where God is and because only God can give you eternal life and entrance to heaven.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 12:33:30 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 12:35:04 PM »

I put this threat so people know that comming to Eastern orthodox Church, the Church that exists in Heaven is a serious step. Usually it is God that makes this happen inviting you into his Church. Comming into Eastern orthodox Church is being invited to be as close as possible from God. God will be in you and yolu will be in God after partaking Holy Communion. I am not aware of being closer to God than this and as a gift you get eternal life.

That usually means that something really good had happen in your family as prayer, helping poor and good deeds.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 12:41:38 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 02:13:28 PM »

Pasadi, do you really want a discussion of the above, or are you just here to pontificate?

BTW, unless you really want to scare people, this is a thread, not a threat.
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 02:16:15 PM »

Pasadi, do you really want a discussion of the above, or are you just here to pontificate?

BTW, unless you really want to scare people, this is a thread, not a threat.
A fairly apropos typo laugh
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 02:26:15 PM »

I like the thread title but not the content.
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 03:07:33 PM »

I like the thread title but not the content.
Without making fun of anyone, can you tell us what you don't like about the content of this thread?
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2011, 12:32:39 AM »

Quote
You can see throug microscope water changing molecular shapes when EOC priests ask GOD to bless te Water.

This is very interesting. I have friends who only believe in science. If there is documentation of this - perhaps a video available? I would love to see it and show it to them. Is there some place I could look it up (it would have to be in English, though, to do me any good)?

thanks
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pasadi97
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 03:19:08 AM »

Here are the pictures: http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 11:00:21 AM »

Those are pictures without any source or explanation or documentation of how they were taken or where or how.  Frankly the lower three look like snowflake shots to me.  The page makes a claim that cannot be looked into by others without more information
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 10:18:41 PM »

I like the thread title but not the content.
Without making fun of anyone, can you tell us what you don't like about the content of this thread?

I'll try:  without doubting the sincerity of the OP, I think it's a mistake to get into the trap of "scientifically proving" the miraculous. 

Once you set the standard that "we can prove this because we have a video of it under a microscope", you will be asked to prove all the other miracles of our Faith as well, using the same standards.

Are you prepared to offer the same level of scientific proof to skeptics for, say, the Resurrection?
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 10:51:17 PM »

Some people want a sign. This they can see like Hioly water, Holy Light, Jordan River moving back and such can help some people.
Some miracles are proven by people seing them . However some people want to see themself and here Holy Water can help.
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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2011, 12:28:45 AM »

Some people want a sign. This they can see like Hioly water, Holy Light, Jordan River moving back and such can help some people.
Some miracles are proven by people seing them . However some people want to see themself and here Holy Water can help.

Matthew 16:4 "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah."  Cool
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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2011, 09:20:08 AM »

Wrong generalization.
What about Apostle Thomas that asked for a sign?
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2011, 09:41:20 AM »

Those are pictures without any source or explanation or documentation of how they were taken or where or how.  Frankly the lower three look like snowflake shots to me.  The page makes a claim that cannot be looked into by others without more information


Yes, those are just pictures of snowflakes.

The page talks about "water structure" but liquid water has no crystalline structure. The molecular structure of water cannot be seen with an optical microscope.

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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2011, 09:45:06 AM »

Speaking against a miracle can be sin. You don't believe even after you are told, that is your problem. Sure its not usual, this is why it is called miracle.
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2011, 09:51:37 AM »

Wrong generalization.
What about Apostle Thomas that asked for a sign?

He did not ask for a "sign" - he asked to see proof that Christ had actually physically risen from the dead.

And Christ did indeed appear to him, but told Thomas to touch the wounds in His side and His hands, just to make sure.

When God does a real miracle He doesn't ask us to accept grainy, unidentifiable photos as evidence - He always gives us the real thing.  Cool

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2011, 09:55:28 AM »

Sometime in Bible you have just the description of miracle not even photos. and I think you believe them. Sure, God had left into Eastern Orthodox Church many miracles , some stories, some photos and some you can see with you eyes YEAR AFTER YEAR. Miracles are not bad and this is why Biblehas many. God works today and will work in eternity.

Best is to ask God to move you to the true Church in his eyes.Everything that I write in this website and in other web sites is according with my understanding.
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2011, 10:09:38 AM »

I need to say this. In Christianity there is usually no negative prayer and cursing. You don't like somebody, you pray so that he comes to prayer and good deeds and turns to God.
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2011, 10:13:16 AM »

Speaking against a miracle can be sin. You don't believe even after you are told, that is your problem. Sure its not usual, this is why it is called miracle.

I wonder if it is a sin to use bogus photographs to falsely claim a miracle?
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2011, 10:20:36 AM »

Speaking against a miracle can be sin. You don't believe even after you are told, that is your problem. Sure its not usual, this is why it is called miracle.

I wonder if it is a sin to use bogus photographs to falsely claim a miracle?


Yes I forgive. Ok, you can choose to go and see yearly miracles with your own eyes. The photograps are not bogus.
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2011, 10:45:23 AM »

I need to say this. In Christianity there is usually no negative prayer and cursing. You don't like somebody, you pray so that he comes to prayer and good deeds and turns to God.

Is someone in this thread cursing at you or posting negative prayers?   Huh

Disagreeing with people on the Internet is not a sin, I hope.  Cool
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2011, 06:10:52 PM »

Speaking against a miracle can be sin. You don't believe even after you are told, that is your problem. Sure its not usual, this is why it is called miracle.

Why did you post the link to the page with the purported photos of "differences" in waters?  If it was to somehow support a claim that "special" things happened to water in EO circumstances then you wanted the use of scientific methods, it would seem.  In that case, good science claims need to be backed up with information about things like how things were done, under what circumstances and with what controls and who was doing the work. 

Those photos aren't a miracle, they are pictures on a website. Do you know who put them up or how they were taken or are you merely posting a link in an attempt to support a statement?  Would you please give any information that you might have?

Why should one just believe a statement without evidence?  The Bereans did not, but looked into the Scriptures to find out of what they were told was true. 

Many things can be "not usual" and not be a miracle.  It could be a misunderstanding or unfortunately sometimes claims are made that are not true.  Putting up things a that turn out to not be true doesn't help a person's claims, I would suggest.

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2011, 06:12:12 PM »

Speaking against a miracle can be sin. You don't believe even after you are told, that is your problem. Sure its not usual, this is why it is called miracle.

I wonder if it is a sin to use bogus photographs to falsely claim a miracle?


Yes I forgive. Ok, you can choose to go and see yearly miracles with your own eyes. The photograps are not bogus.

How do you know that they aren't bogus in the case of the snowflake pictures? 
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2011, 08:46:17 PM »

Speaking against a miracle can be sin. You don't believe even after you are told, that is your problem. Sure its not usual, this is why it is called miracle.
But since even the devil can perform miracles to deceive even the elect, being skeptical of miracles is not a sin, either. What you've presented here, though, can't even be considered miracles. They're just photos that anyone could have faked through good photo editing software or ripped from their context to make them look like photos of the miraculous.
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2011, 08:52:43 PM »

LOL it's the Loch Ness of Orthodox photos.
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2011, 08:52:57 PM »

These are pictures of a mountain before and after a priest blessed it.

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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2011, 09:00:20 PM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2011, 09:03:38 PM »

Unless it's to threaten and cajole, Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike, what is the point of the OP and this thread? Seems kind of unOrthodox to me. In fact, it seems more in keeping with fundamentalist thinking.
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2011, 10:39:06 PM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.
I'm sure you can, but most likely not through photos or videos that can be easily faked.
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 10:40:44 PM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.
Wouldn't that fall under the "testing God" category?
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2011, 10:00:01 AM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

Actually it may be your duty to ask God about which religion/denomination is right in his eyes. why...because cursed is the one that put his stregth in man or something like this so if you can not put your strength in a man, including in yourself , you can put your strength in God and God remains to be put your strength into so asking God about true religion is not testing God, it is doing the right thing, aka maybe not falling under the curse of putting your strength in yourself aka man and is recognizing that as man you are fallible.
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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2011, 12:14:11 PM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

Actually it may be your duty to ask God about which religion/denomination is right in his eyes. why...because cursed is the one that put his stregth in man or something like this so if you can not put your strength in a man, including in yourself , you can put your strength in God and God remains to be put your strength into so asking God about true religion is not testing God, it is doing the right thing, aka maybe not falling under the curse of putting your strength in yourself aka man and is recognizing that as man you are fallible.
But how do we know whether a miracle is genuine or a counterfeit? In the end it comes back to using our own reasoning, guided--we hope--by the Holy Spirit, but still our own reasoning. That's why I prefer to believe that it's true doctrine, not miracles, that marks a faith as true.
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2011, 05:49:52 PM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

Actually it may be your duty to ask God about which religion/denomination is right in his eyes. why...because cursed is the one that put his stregth in man or something like this so if you can not put your strength in a man, including in yourself , you can put your strength in God and God remains to be put your strength into so asking God about true religion is not testing God, it is doing the right thing, aka maybe not falling under the curse of putting your strength in yourself aka man and is recognizing that as man you are fallible.
But how do we know whether a miracle is genuine or a counterfeit? In the end it comes back to using our own reasoning, guided--we hope--by the Holy Spirit, but still our own reasoning. That's why I prefer to believe that it's true doctrine, not miracles, that marks a faith as true.

How do we know that in having come to the conclusion that we have discovered the true religion we are still not relying on our own strengths or the strengths of those who instruct us rather than Gods? Is it right for us to consider that our personal conclusions are divine revelation?

And even in believing that we have discovered true doctrine, we still rely on the mercy of God no less than anyone else. I have friends who left Protestantism to become Roman Catholic. They are just as convicted as any Orthodox believer (or Protestant believer) that they have discovered true doctrine. To imagine that someone is cursed because they haven't come to the same conclusion as we have is nothing more than triumphalism in my opinion. Such pride actually seems to me to be more dangerous than believing the wrong doctrine. Better to be like the Publican who acknowledged that he was a sinner in need of God's mercy, than the Pharisee, who in doing all things correctly, was prideful and lacking in love.
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2011, 07:01:56 PM »

Oh my.

Regarding the Holy Water experiment itself:
Without source documents, publication, and peer review the photos will not pass as scientific evidence to convince my agnostic friend. I intend to follow up with St. Mary's Assumption Church, though I do not expect much. Even if the photos somehow pan out as true, it will not actually be proof of God's existence, but would show that prayers could create effect in the physical realm, and thus serve to demonstrate to my friend that there is more to Christianity than mere mythology; and would give him something to think about.

I asked about this specifically because several years ago, the movie "What the *Bleep* Do We Know" came out, and in it, an experiment was cited, and if memory serves, re-created. A scientist (Dr. Masuro Emoto) took flasks of distilled water and had people (off the street, not clergy) curse at one and 'project anger and negativity' at it. Upon the other, he had people 'project their happy thoughts' (all very 'new age', I know). The water from each vial was then simultaneously frozen and the crystal formations compared. The crystals in the first were deformed and in the second were natural and beautiful. (again, I am going on memory). Here is out take from the movie, showing some of Dr. Emoto's results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpnlCo5APrE

At the time my daughter was in High School and was looking for a project for a science experiment. We discussed performing a similar experiment as the movie had shown but using Holy Water from RC, EO, and other; plus control group, etc. All would be in accordance with scientific standards. No matter what the results were, the experiment, we felt, would be a shoe-in for publication and would certainly stir up controversy. If you are in High School and looking for scholarship money, publication and controversy are good, very good indeed!

But we also considered, as cited above Matthew 16:4, and Matthew 4:7 "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" (NIV); and Matthew 16:26  'what is a man profitted, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?". We prudently decided not to pursue the idea.

But, when Psadi97 mentioned the Holy Water under the microscope, it sounded like someone else had the same idea. It wouldn't surprise me if an atheist had attempted such an experiment as a disproof. So, I was curious about the results and had to inquire further.

Sorry to create such a stir!

-mt-
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« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2011, 08:31:39 PM »

I asked about this specifically because several years ago, the movie "What the *Bleep* Do We Know" came out, and in it, an experiment was cited, and if memory serves, re-created. A scientist (Dr. Masuro Emoto) took flasks of distilled water and had people (off the street, not clergy) curse at one and 'project anger and negativity' at it. Upon the other, he had people 'project their happy thoughts' (all very 'new age', I know). The water from each vial was then simultaneously frozen and the crystal formations compared. The crystals in the first were deformed and in the second were natural and beautiful. (again, I am going on memory). Here is out take from the movie, showing some of Dr. Emoto's results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpnlCo5APrE

Emoto is not a scientist, and his "experiments" have not been replication.

"What the *Bleep* Do We Know" is a pile of [bleep]. Here's an analysis from one of my favorite websites, Insulting Stupid Movie Physics:

http://intuitor.com/moviephysics/bleep.html

Quote
At the time my daughter was in High School and was looking for a project for a science experiment. We discussed performing a similar experiment as the movie had shown but using Holy Water from RC, EO, and other; plus control group, etc. All would be in accordance with scientific standards. No matter what the results were, the experiment, we felt, would be a shoe-in for publication and would certainly stir up controversy. If you are in High School and looking for scholarship money, publication and controversy are good, very good indeed!

In accordance with scientific standards? Would you be doing it at least double-blind? What would you score as a "hit"? How would you calculate a p-value?
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« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2011, 09:42:26 PM »

Such an experiment was done in 1600's by St Michael the great. He won a battle and wanted a Church. There were Eastern Orthodox Christians and other denominations and they agreed that they need to ask God about which denomination is true. So they did Holy Water experiment.

And Eastern Orthodox Holy water was the true one.The other ope smellt pretty bad. Anyhow some denominations are not concerned with this even today. IOOOOOOOOOPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS may come after departing to God.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 09:43:59 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2011, 09:47:07 PM »

Such an experiment was done in 1600's by St Michael the great. He won a battle and wanted a Church. There were Eastern Orthodox Christians and other denominations and they agreed that they need to ask God about which denomination is true. So they did Holy Water experiment.

And Eastern Orthodox Holy water was the true one.The other ope smellt pretty bad. Anyhow some denominations are not concerned with this even today. IOOOOOOOOOPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS may come after departing to God.

About a month ago, we had an icon visit our church. Our priest told us that it was about 200 years old and was making a tour of Orthodox churches across the country. It looked its age - faded, stained, with peels and cracks. I guess, according to you, that it wasn't holy because it was not pristine.
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« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2011, 10:01:32 PM »

Such an experiment was done in 1600's by St Michael the great. He won a battle and wanted a Church. There were Eastern Orthodox Christians and other denominations and they agreed that they need to ask God about which denomination is true. So they did Holy Water experiment.
Can you provide a link to where this experiment is documented?
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pasadi97
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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2011, 11:27:29 PM »

Author:Petru Movila, Arhiepiscop, Mitropolit al Kievului, Arhimandrit al Lavrei Pecerska, cu mina proprie
http://blog.patermihail.ro/arhive/1636

From my understanding in the writting it say Romano Catholics do not have Holy Spirit or God coming to their Church so there is Church building, there are priests there is no Holy spirit comming to do mysteries. So nothing happen in UNSEEN world.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 11:33:52 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2011, 01:04:49 AM »

So they did Holy Water experiment.

And Eastern Orthodox Holy water was the true one.The other ope smellt pretty bad.
Or the Greeks had some good myrrh oil.
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2011, 01:23:25 AM »

Author:Petru Movila, Arhiepiscop, Mitropolit al Kievului, Arhimandrit al Lavrei Pecerska, cu mina proprie
http://blog.patermihail.ro/arhive/1636

From my understanding in the writting it say Romano Catholics do not have Holy Spirit or God coming to their Church so there is Church building, there are priests there is no Holy spirit comming to do mysteries. So nothing happen in UNSEEN world.

Who are these "Romano Catholics" you keep referring to?  Are they fans of "Everybody Loves Raymond"?
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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2011, 02:11:37 AM »

These are pictures of a mountain before and after a priest blessed it.


LOL.
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2011, 03:13:43 AM »

Author:Petru Movila, Arhiepiscop, Mitropolit al Kievului, Arhimandrit al Lavrei Pecerska, cu mina proprie
http://blog.patermihail.ro/arhive/1636

From my understanding in the writting it say Romano Catholics do not have Holy Spirit or God coming to their Church so there is Church building, there are priests there is no Holy spirit comming to do mysteries. So nothing happen in UNSEEN world.
You'll need to do much better than reference a blog. I trust a blog page that fails to cite historical documents no more than I trust you, who fail to cite historical documents. How do I know this isn't your blog?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 03:14:59 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2011, 03:17:54 AM »

Author:Petru Movila, Arhiepiscop, Mitropolit al Kievului, Arhimandrit al Lavrei Pecerska, cu mina proprie
http://blog.patermihail.ro/arhive/1636

From my understanding in the writting it say Romano Catholics do not have Holy Spirit or God coming to their Church so there is Church building, there are priests there is no Holy spirit comming to do mysteries. So nothing happen in UNSEEN world.
You'll need to do much better than reference a blog. I trust a blog page that fails to cite historical documents no more than I trust you, who fail to cite historical documents. How do I know this isn't your blog?
it's claiming to cite historical documents, but if you don't speak Romanian, you would know that: the quote he has says "Peter Movila, Archbishop, Metropolitan of Kiev, Archmandrite of the Pecerska Lavra, with his own hand" at the end of a document saying the Latins (his word) do not have the Spirit.  But that isn't a historical issue, it's a theological one.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2011, 06:07:13 AM »

So, if God is not in Roman Catholic Church and it is in Eastern orthodox Church, an absorbtion by RCC of EOC would be bad since EOC can remain without God in Churches.
So that says RCC needs to come back to EOC the Church established by Jesus in 33. Think 100 years from now when v erbosity, writting and speaking talent won't matter too much.
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