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neon_knights
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« on: August 20, 2011, 01:14:04 PM »

Is it possible to receive personal revelations from God about scripture or whatnot?

The reason I ask is because this is heavily stressed in the tradition I come from (Pentecostal), to the point where receiving advice from a priest is viewed as having a "dead relationship with God".

I began a debate with one of my fellow church-goers today about personal "revelations" and interpretations of scripture vs. traditional interpretations/priestly advice. How would I explain how receiving advice from a priest is not a "dead relationship" with God? Does a relationship with God have to include personal revelations on scripture? Can it?
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2011, 04:36:51 PM »

The first thought that comes to mind is Acts 8 and the Ethiopian eunuch.
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2011, 04:48:17 PM »

Is it possible to receive personal revelations from God about scripture or whatnot?

Yeah, I imagine so: One time, as I was reading Romans I, its meaning hit me like a ton of bricks. It made my scalp tingle. But these things are infrequent gifts.

The reason the church places emphasis on the priest's interpretation is that he usually has the right one, the one that was hammered out in the first 500 years of the Church's existence. It would be a rare interpretation that hadn't already been debated hotly by people smarter than we. Roll-Your-Own Theology has only been in vogue since the 16th century. The Church is 2000 years old.
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2011, 06:24:34 PM »

Thanks for the replies.
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 09:06:30 AM »

Is it possible to receive personal revelations from God about scripture or whatnot?

The reason I ask is because this is heavily stressed in the tradition I come from (Pentecostal), to the point where receiving advice from a priest is viewed as having a "dead relationship with God".

I began a debate with one of my fellow church-goers today about personal "revelations" and interpretations of scripture vs. traditional interpretations/priestly advice. How would I explain how receiving advice from a priest is not a "dead relationship" with God? Does a relationship with God have to include personal revelations on scripture? Can it?
yes. But the Fathers warn, if you see a vision, ignore it.  Only an evil and perverse generation seek a sign.

When I became Orthodox, I prayed that I would NOT see a miracle until my Faith was strong.  Years later, looking at my first weeping icon (I've seen another since then), I said "OK, now what?"

As for having a "dead relationship with God":
John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he." 27 Just then his disciples came. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but none said, "What do you wish?" or, "Why are you talking with her?" 28 So the woman left her water jar, and went away into the city, and said to the people, 29 "Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?" 30 They went out of the city and were coming to him. 31 Meanwhile the disciples besought him, saying, "Rabbi, eat." 32 But he said to them, "I have food to eat of which you do not know." 33 So the disciples said to one another, "Has any one brought him food?" 34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work. 35 Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, then comes the harvest'? I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see how the fields are already white for harvest. 36 He who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37 For here the saying holds true, 'One sows and another reaps.' 38 I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor; others have labored, and you have entered into their labor." 39 Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me all that I ever did." 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them; and he stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of your words that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."
Maybe, but they wouldn't have believed enough to receive His words, unless they first heard her words.

The priest, for instance, chrismates with the Promises of Christ of a personal Pentecost.  Pentecostals, without such promise and authority, have no ability to call upon the descent of the Holy Spirit.  In this they are worse than Simon the Magician.  At least he tried to buy the right to chrismate.  The Pentecostals just claim to approprite it to themselves.

As St. Paul said "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints"  The Church, through the episcopate, is to keep order.  If you interpretation is against all what the Church has taught for 2,000 years, your interpretation is wrong.  That's not new.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ...5:1 So I exhort the priest among you, as a fellow priest and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. 2 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, 3 not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the priests...II Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellenceby which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;...16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God....2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep...9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority...19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire...3:2 you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. 3 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions...16are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

it is through receiving the Holy Mysteries from the hands of the episcopate, who received them in the laying on of hands from the Apostles, that one confirms his call and election.  The interpretation of scripture must be within the Church, even private interpretation, as the Spirit did inspire scripture as a private impulse, but a public one, in the forum of the Church. Bowing to her wisdom which the priest imparts is nothing more than sound advice.  That is a dead relationship only to the brain dead.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 11:14:41 AM »

Is it possible to receive personal revelations from God about scripture or whatnot?

The reason I ask is because this is heavily stressed in the tradition I come from (Pentecostal), to the point where receiving advice from a priest is viewed as having a "dead relationship with God".

I began a debate with one of my fellow church-goers today about personal "revelations" and interpretations of scripture vs. traditional interpretations/priestly advice. How would I explain how receiving advice from a priest is not a "dead relationship" with God? Does a relationship with God have to include personal revelations on scripture? Can it?

In short, yes.  God works with us and gives us what is necessary for our Faith.  I was lead to Orthodoxy in part because of personal revelations.  I have seen some things in my mind, dreams and with my own eyes that have solidly cemented in me my faith in God and in Jesus Christ.

However, now that I am Orthodox, I no longer have need for these and realize that they could be used to trick me.  As my Priest once put it: "When you are in a jungle and looking for the road to where you are going, a machete is a very useful, if not essential tool.  However, once you are on the road, a machete just becomes extra weight to be carried that could be substituted with something more useful".  As an Orthodox Christian, I have access to the fullness of the Faith.  God no longer needs to speak to me through visions and dreams, but through the Liturgy, the writings of the Fathers, and the Lives of the Saints.  All these were missing in my Protestant days.  Yet God, in his infinite and wonderful mercy, knew my heart and supplied me with what I needed to find Him and become part of His Holy Body, the Orthodox Church.  I still had some signs in the early days after my conversion. However, I have not had many since.  However, I cannot count how many times something has weighed upon me only to find the answer in the readings of the Prologue or in the hymns of the Church for the day - not to mention the Scriptures.  The Scriptures are the Word of God, the Fathers are the accurate interpretation of the Word, and the Lives of the Saints are the Word of God in action.  This combined with the Holy Spirit that resides in us due to our Baptism and Chrismation, and the frequent partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ in communion, supplies us (at least me) with everything that is necessary for our Salvation.  I no longer need, nor particularly want, visions and signs.
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 12:51:52 PM »

I've never had a vision or anything like that. I think because I'm so skeptical by nature that God never gave one to me. However, my wife has had one before when she was still a Protestant. Her vision was at a Pentecostal conference. However, she was alone in her room and wasn't worked up in any kind of ecstatic frenzy.

I think it's wise not to speculate what the Spirit does outside the church. However, I'm far more skeptical of someone who gets worked up in an ecstatic frenzy after being exposed to "worship music" for two straight hours claiming to have a vision from God.
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 01:31:26 PM »


I think it's wise not to speculate what the Spirit does outside the church. However, I'm far more skeptical of someone who gets worked up in an ecstatic frenzy after being exposed to "worship music" for two straight hours claiming to have a vision from God.

Amen.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 01:38:34 PM »

I think it is certainly possible that the Lord can give a person a vision, if it's part of His will. However, if I had been in a boisterous crowd for a number of hours, perhaps deprived of water, and I 'saw something,' I would not jump to the conclusion that this was from God. I don't think God would just randomly scare people. He would only give people a vision if it were useful. Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 03:50:48 PM »

Stay away from Penticostal movement. It is dangerous and there is a Romanian book : Escape from Hell with many details.

Yes, God sends visions and makes you understand Scripture , however you need to pray for this.

There are two sources of visions: God and sick angels. Sick angels can be contacted through passcodes, spells, sorceries, shaman dances, spiritism, shacking, behaving like possesed people, speaking curses and prayers to idols in ancient lahguages  and God can be contacted through prayer. Sometime a cult can use passcodes and spells and get visions with a cover of Christianity they think is from God howevere in Eastern orthodoxy there is prayer to contact God. When Isaiah spoke with God he was not shacking neether he was dancing he behaved more like an orthodox man that did pray . If Pentecostals contact God and have visions why God does not tell them about Holy liturgy that was written by Apostles?

At one time I did not have much clue about religions even I wanted to become Protestant however I did pray to God to show me the truth of all religions and to save me and believe or not today I have a good view of religions. So pray and God will answer. I did pray to see and angel and I did see more than an angel. So pray and have faith. Don't shake and do other stuff.

By praying to God to tell me where the truth is , God told me that Eastern Orthdoox Church is the true Church and this is why he is sending the Holy light there. Holy Light is comming from time of Apsotle Peter for almost 2000 years from Early Church showing where truth is.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 04:18:40 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
pasadi97
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 04:24:31 PM »

The garden of Heaven had many inofensive trees, trees however one tree of death. The garden of religions has many tree however there is the tree of eternal life, Eastern Orthodox Church.

You may be actually required to pray to God for your salvation. If you use just your abilities in my understanding you are cursed. In Old Testament there is something in the sense that curesd is the man that puts his hope in himself.

So is good to exit the curse of having faith in yourself so is good to pray to pray for:
salvation

Also is good to pray for
having a good understanding of all religions
to go to the right religion in the understanding of God
marriage
job
children
to love your neighbor like yourself and love God
to be gentle
to avoid sin
to have sins forgiven
to be sent to Heven for eternity
To be baptised, confessed, and to partake Holy Communion often and in good standing
to avoid Hell
to help others be saved
same prayers for your neighbours
to help others with clothes, food, housing

If you pray to see angels and miracles to strenghten the faith pray so that the experience will be usefull for you
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 04:31:11 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 04:43:39 PM »

Ok, I will try one more time.

Jesus came and established the Eastern orthodox Church . He taught Apostles about Holy liturgy and to the Church was left prayer as a way of visions and having contact with God.

One group broke away from the Church and denounced the teachings of Apostles comming with the FALSE teaching that today there are no more miracles. This is falsehood and is called Protestant baggage. They not only denied Apostolic teachings, you see visions in Acts of apostles they scared everybody in their group from having this type of visions condemning them to Hell and other scary threats. What you had a vision and an agel told you Protestantism is falsehood? That can not be right. What, you had a vision with Apostle Luke painting icons condemning Protestantism and iconoclast error? That can not be right also.

Another group denounced the Apostles teachings and instead of prayer used shacking, behaVING like possesed people, speaking in unknown tongues and such. They put another baggage.

So you're asking which of the two groups that denounce the teachings of Apostles is true. No one. True is the one that remained faithfull to the teachings of the Early Church.  I understand that by having the baggage of lies and false condemnations to come to the truth is scary and can prevent you from comming to the Church that can give you eternal life. This is life. The condemnations from escaping lies can prevent you from getting eternal life thought.

You make it to the true Church you get eternal life. You remain in lies, you may not get it.

Prayer can set you free.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 05:02:06 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 05:03:23 PM »

When I was really big into the New Age movement, and following some guy who claimed to to have Jesus "dictate" through him.. (really just another word for channeling);  I would have crazy dreams and spiritual experiences left and right.  Usually all of these dreams, and experiences.. (and even sometimes a vision) as I would meditate on a mantra; would only seek to appease my own fancy where I could believe what I wanted to believe.

For example I could read a book from the Theosophical Society; on how they separate the two natures of Christ.  Thereby introducing some form of Perennialism saying "Jesus isn't the only way".  I might end up having a dream about it, that seemed very spiritual -- and I would sincerely believe it was from whatever "Master" was trying to reveal this to me.

When it comes to these "personal revelations" it's best that we stay clear of most of them.  Usually Satan's just telling us what we want to hear, and due to our corrupt fallen nature -- if it was from God.. he would have other ways of getting the message to us where there's no confusion.  


Strangely though, when I cried out to Jesus from the bottom of my soul to end my confusion -- I only had one dream.  And it made it explicitly clear that the path I was going, was "the way that seems right unto a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death."  That's when I knew I needed to *return* to Christ.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 05:04:56 PM by AveChriste11 » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 05:19:10 PM »

You basically say like myself: channeling like shaman dances and shacking = bad and confusion since through these means you usually contact the bad guys or sick angels

Prayer= vision that sorted things out since through prayer you contact God  . If you pray for visions, seeing angels and such pray also so that the experience will be usefull.

So shacking, shaman dances, spells, passcodes, unknown languages can be bad. Prayer always good.

You say that when you asked Jesus to end confusion you was let know the truth. Same here When  I prayed to understand all religions to escape the confusion of thousand of Christian denominations I was let know and you can read what I am saying and at least to me it makes sense. Many people that come to eastern orthodox Christianity come here because they asked God about true religioon. I heard many stories. Some do not ask the right question like asking if Bible is true and of course they get the answer it is so they end to protestantism not askinh which of thousands christian denominations is the true one. Would they ask about true religion they would come to easterN orthodox Church.

so please pray, this can be the best thing you will do in your life for your eternity:


Dear God, please save me and my family and as many people as possible. please let me know the truth of all religions and please move me to the true religion. Also please show the truth of all religions to as many people as possible and move as many people as possible to the true religion in your eyes.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 05:28:18 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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