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Author Topic: "Why I'm Not Orthodox"  (Read 5483 times) Average Rating: 0
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Volnutt
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2011, 07:20:58 PM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
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Agabus
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« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2011, 09:20:08 PM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
In places.

The convert-pisses-on-his-patrimony autobiography is the lowest form of Orthodox literature... Which is kind of odd, because it is essentially a form of the Protestant patrimony itself -- the testimony.
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2011, 10:27:06 PM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
In places.

The convert-pisses-on-his-patrimony autobiography is the lowest form of Orthodox literature... Which is kind of odd, because it is essentially a form of the Protestant patrimony itself -- the testimony.

You proclaim that you curse and you smoke. I cannot do much about your smoking, which is a form of suicide, but I do advise you to watch your mouth while you are on this forum. Surely you can exhibit a better choice of words. Second Chance
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2011, 11:48:06 PM »

Is hours of sedentary forum activity also suicidal?
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theo philosopher
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2011, 12:04:40 AM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
In places.

The convert-pisses-on-his-patrimony autobiography is the lowest form of Orthodox literature... Which is kind of odd, because it is essentially a form of the Protestant patrimony itself -- the testimony.

Some people grow in faith differently. Some move towards Orthodoxy from their Protestant backgrounds because they've been hurt in Protestant churches, so they tend to attack their former beliefs. They're still bitter and they're working through it.

Others simply seek out the original Church and convert while harboring no ill towards their previous churches.

Perhaps some grace is in order for those who are still bitter towards their past experiences, lest we replicate those experiences.
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2011, 12:05:25 PM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
In places.

The convert-pisses-on-his-patrimony autobiography is the lowest form of Orthodox literature... Which is kind of odd, because it is essentially a form of the Protestant patrimony itself -- the testimony.

You proclaim that you curse and you smoke. I cannot do much about your smoking, which is a form of suicide, but I do advise you to watch your mouth while you are on this forum. Surely you can exhibit a better choice of words. Second Chance
Duly noted.
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Agabus
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2011, 12:06:49 PM »

Perhaps some grace is in order for those who are still bitter towards their past experiences, lest we replicate those experiences.
Perhaps. I, too, am still a work in progress.
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2011, 12:31:48 PM »

IIRC, if you ask him about this today, he will give you the same answer, "i'm commited to certain protestant distinctives"...it's almost like a mantra. Maybe he'll come around...I have a feeling there are other barriers there which would hinder him, like family etc.
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2011, 06:03:43 PM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
In places.

The convert-pisses-on-his-patrimony autobiography is the lowest form of Orthodox literature... Which is kind of odd, because it is essentially a form of the Protestant patrimony itself -- the testimony.

You proclaim that you curse and you smoke. I cannot do much about your smoking, which is a form of suicide, but I do advise you to watch your mouth while you are on this forum. Surely you can exhibit a better choice of words. Second Chance

What 'curse' word did he use? Piss? It's in the KJV Bible for cryin' out loud. St Paul uses dirtier words.
 What I gave Agabus was not a formal warning that is usually accompanied by sanctions, probably because the word that he used was borderline. You, on the other hand, just broke a cardinal rule that is indeed accompanied by sanctions. You are therefore put on warning for 30 days for questioning a moderatorial action in public. You are getting 30 days because you had been warned last year on this very rule. You may appeal to Father George if you wish. Second Chance
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2011, 06:31:07 PM »

Is hours of sedentary forum activity also suicidal?

Yes.

Another
thing to write down for my first confession...  Embarrassed
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« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2011, 07:33:26 AM »

Why believe in the teaching of any religion in the first place?
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Iconodule
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« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2011, 08:32:50 AM »

Why believe in the teaching of any religion in the first place?

That is not the teaching of Islam.
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« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2011, 11:33:50 AM »

Why believe in the teaching of any religion in the first place?

Because of the transformative effect it has on you for the better. You can be reshaped and remolded and become a better, happier more humble person.

I am also preparing for life after death which I am already very convinced of based on personal experiences.
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2011, 10:31:37 AM »

Is hours of sedentary forum activity also suicidal?

 Cheesy
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« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2011, 01:57:38 PM »

I just sent this out to a friend via PM, but any disgruntled Protestants may want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Thirsting-God-Land-Shallow-Wells/dp/1888212284/ref=pd_cp_b_pw_1
Emphasis on disgruntled.
Is is that bad?
In places.

The convert-<PP's CENSOR SERVICE>on-his-patrimony autobiography is the lowest form of Orthodox literature... Which is kind of odd, because it is essentially a form of the Protestant patrimony itself -- the testimony.

Thats not intentionally true. Ithink it can be done tastefully (of course, not here  Cheesy) but it can be done.



PP
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« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2011, 02:12:08 PM »

Quote
Protestant theologian Adolf von Harnack once described the Orthodox church as "in her entire structure alien to the Gospel and a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

Oh dear. Oh, this won't do at all.  Tongue

I can see why somebody could see it that way and I have thought about it this way several times.  

1. Eastern Orthodox Christians kiss paint and wood which mystically re-directs to the person "alive in heaven".
2. Eastern Orthodox disobey Yeshua Messiah and call priests "father" and bishops "master".
3. Eastern Orthodox "enchant" objects with "blessings" as if some change occurs in the item making it HOLY and forgetting the fact that God created it in the first place - hence it is already holy.
4. Eastern Orthodox make a) Images of things on Earth and in Heaven and b) Bow down to them
5. Eastern Orthodox images have "auras" (halos) much like that in images of Buddhists & Hindus
6. Pagans use relics, Eastern Orthodox use relics and excuse it because of Elisha's Bones... But really thy are just chopping up dead people and wax sealing them in an altar. along with -
7. Not recognizing if Yeshua (whom the EO call Jesus) wanted things this way, he most likely would have chopped up dead people and waxed them in an altar himself.

And NOT last and NOT least, I wonder if Eastern Orthodox Christians ever wonder "how did we get so far" when Yeshua preached in the streets, homes, temples, mounts, hills, and occasionally in Jewish temples (where he was often attacked), as they sit in an elaborate church of icons, holy this, holy that, funky rituals crossing themselves, bowing toward images, special boundaries behind the iconostasis (royal doors for one instance)...  

Gee how did it come so far?

Perhaps the "Vicar of Christ" resonates way past the RC church.  Perhaps calling your bishops Master and priests Father through many centuries watching them enter the "royal doors" and hearing your "confession & give absolution" creates a psychological subservient behavior of parishioners as these "semi God" clergy "masters" brought in complete pagan elements?   Yes, I know this is harsh - but HOW on EARTH did it get this far?  

So before I'm attacked please consider:  the next time you cross yourself, prostrate, cross yourself again, kiss a piece of wood that has been painted (and enchanted with blessing), back off probably holding your hand on your heart, then cross yourself and prostrate again  -  remember - Yeshua did not do that.  Yeshua did not teach you to do that.   Have you bought into brainwashing by men you call "fathers and masters"?

Why am I not Eastern Orthodox?   Because Yeshua nor the apostles and many early Christians were not Eastern Orthodox.   Otherwise we'd see them crossing themselves, bowing, crossing, bowing, crossing, bowing,....... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing (cuz you know you get brownie points with YHWH if you do it more and more you know)..... crossing bowing......   Jesus prayer x 50 (or X 100 if you are super holy), waxing in relics, and enchanting objects.
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« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2011, 02:16:34 PM »

Quote
Protestant theologian Adolf von Harnack once described the Orthodox church as "in her entire structure alien to the Gospel and a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

Oh dear. Oh, this won't do at all.  Tongue

I can see why somebody could see it that way and I have thought about it this way several times.  

1. Eastern Orthodox Christians kiss paint and wood which mystically re-directs to the person "alive in heaven".
2. Eastern Orthodox disobey Yeshua Messiah and call priests "father" and bishops "master".
3. Eastern Orthodox "enchant" objects with "blessings" as if some change occurs in the item making it HOLY and forgetting the fact that God created it in the first place - hence it is already holy.
4. Eastern Orthodox make a) Images of things on Earth and in Heaven and b) Bow down to them
5. Eastern Orthodox images have "auras" (halos) much like that in images of Buddhists & Hindus
6. Pagans use relics, Eastern Orthodox use relics and excuse it because of Elisha's Bones... But really thy are just chopping up dead people and wax sealing them in an altar. along with -
7. Not recognizing if Yeshua (whom the EO call Jesus) wanted things this way, he most likely would have chopped up dead people and waxed them in an altar himself.

And NOT last and NOT least, I wonder if Eastern Orthodox Christians ever wonder "how did we get so far" when Yeshua preached in the streets, homes, temples, mounts, hills, and occasionally in Jewish temples (where he was often attacked), as they sit in an elaborate church of icons, holy this, holy that, funky rituals crossing themselves, bowing toward images, special boundaries behind the iconostasis (royal doors for one instance)...  

Gee how did it come so far?

Perhaps the "Vicar of Christ" resonates way past the RC church.  Perhaps calling your bishops Master and priests Father through many centuries watching them enter the "royal doors" and hearing your "confession & give absolution" creates a psychological subservient behavior of parishioners as these "semi God" clergy "masters" brought in complete pagan elements?   Yes, I know this is harsh - but HOW on EARTH did it get this far?  

So before I'm attacked please consider:  the next time you cross yourself, prostrate, cross yourself again, kiss a piece of wood that has been painted (and enchanted with blessing), back off probably holding your hand on your heart, then cross yourself and prostrate again  -  remember - Yeshua did not do that.  Yeshua did not teach you to do that.   Have you bought into brainwashing by men you call "fathers and masters"?

Why am I not Eastern Orthodox?   Because Yeshua nor the apostles and many early Christians were not Eastern Orthodox.   Otherwise we'd see them crossing themselves, bowing, crossing, bowing, crossing, bowing,....... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing (cuz you know you get brownie points with YHWH if you do it more and more you know)..... crossing bowing......   Jesus prayer x 50 (or X 100 if you are super holy), waxing in relics, and enchanting objects.

Hey whatever initialism folks refer to you by,

If we sticky these theses will you agree to never to argue from them again?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 02:16:55 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2011, 02:36:09 PM »

Otherwise we'd see them crossing themselves, bowing, crossing, bowing, crossing, bowing,....... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing

First we'd need a time machine.
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2011, 02:42:16 PM »

Quote
Perhaps calling your bishops Master and priests Father through many centuries watching them enter the "royal doors" and hearing your "confession & give absolution" creates a psychological subservient behavior of parishioners

If you think Orthodox laypeople are psychologically subservient to the clergy, you've been hanging out with the wrong Orthodox laypeople (or perhaps you've never even met an Orthodox, layman or cleric).
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2011, 02:46:10 PM »

Quote
Protestant theologian Adolf von Harnack once described the Orthodox church as "in her entire structure alien to the Gospel and a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

Oh dear. Oh, this won't do at all.  Tongue

I can see why somebody could see it that way and I have thought about it this way several times.  

1. Eastern Orthodox Christians kiss paint and wood which mystically re-directs to the person "alive in heaven".
2. Eastern Orthodox disobey Yeshua Messiah and call priests "father" and bishops "master".
3. Eastern Orthodox "enchant" objects with "blessings" as if some change occurs in the item making it HOLY and forgetting the fact that God created it in the first place - hence it is already holy.
4. Eastern Orthodox make a) Images of things on Earth and in Heaven and b) Bow down to them
5. Eastern Orthodox images have "auras" (halos) much like that in images of Buddhists & Hindus
6. Pagans use relics, Eastern Orthodox use relics and excuse it because of Elisha's Bones... But really thy are just chopping up dead people and wax sealing them in an altar. along with -
7. Not recognizing if Yeshua (whom the EO call Jesus) wanted things this way, he most likely would have chopped up dead people and waxed them in an altar himself.

And NOT last and NOT least, I wonder if Eastern Orthodox Christians ever wonder "how did we get so far" when Yeshua preached in the streets, homes, temples, mounts, hills, and occasionally in Jewish temples (where he was often attacked), as they sit in an elaborate church of icons, holy this, holy that, funky rituals crossing themselves, bowing toward images, special boundaries behind the iconostasis (royal doors for one instance)...  

Gee how did it come so far?

Perhaps the "Vicar of Christ" resonates way past the RC church.  Perhaps calling your bishops Master and priests Father through many centuries watching them enter the "royal doors" and hearing your "confession & give absolution" creates a psychological subservient behavior of parishioners as these "semi God" clergy "masters" brought in complete pagan elements?   Yes, I know this is harsh - but HOW on EARTH did it get this far?  

So before I'm attacked please consider:  the next time you cross yourself, prostrate, cross yourself again, kiss a piece of wood that has been painted (and enchanted with blessing), back off probably holding your hand on your heart, then cross yourself and prostrate again  -  remember - Yeshua did not do that.  Yeshua did not teach you to do that.   Have you bought into brainwashing by men you call "fathers and masters"?

Why am I not Eastern Orthodox?   Because Yeshua nor the apostles and many early Christians were not Eastern Orthodox.   Otherwise we'd see them crossing themselves, bowing, crossing, bowing, crossing, bowing,....... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing..... crossing bowing (cuz you know you get brownie points with YHWH if you do it more and more you know)..... crossing bowing......   Jesus prayer x 50 (or X 100 if you are super holy), waxing in relics, and enchanting objects.

So I take it that the bruises you suffered from your last theological beating have healed hmmm?


PP
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« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2011, 02:47:57 PM »

Which beating? I find reading his lame drivel entertaining.
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« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2011, 02:50:47 PM »

Which beating? I find reading his lame drivel entertaining.
Mr. yeshuaisiam has been taken to the theological woodshed on more than one occasion. I can only think that his relative tame-ness over the last month or so is from the absolute pwnage he took from numerous folks that systematically took down the arguments that he presented.

I can only see him starting up again because his wounds (to his theology and his pride) have healed to a sufficient level that he's ready to get beaten down again.

PP
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 02:52:55 PM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2011, 02:55:42 PM »

Yeshuaisiam is a lot like a good old-fashioned Ameircan hymn: he knows how to add embellishments and variants, but he's still repeating the same tune over and over again, and it subsequently goes more flat each time it's repeated.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 02:56:06 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2011, 02:57:01 PM »

No insults necessary, just refutation. Someone has laid an assault on our church and her practices and we should do our best to show him (and others) why he is in error.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 02:58:17 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2011, 03:02:12 PM »

No insults necessary, just refutation. Someone has laid an assault on our church and her practices and we should do our best to show him (and others) why he is in error.
We have, multiple folks, multiple times. However he does what many folks do. They choose to ignore arguments or facts to which they can not readily google-fu or dispute and focus on ones they think they can (yesh is a prime example but also Alfred Pearsson or however you spell his name, which I think he finally had enough).

PP
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« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2011, 03:04:55 PM »

No insults necessary, just refutation. Someone has laid an assault on our church and her practices and we should do our best to show him (and others) why he is in error.
We have, multiple folks, multiple times. However he does what many folks do. They choose to ignore arguments or facts to which they can not readily google-fu or dispute and focus on ones they think they can (yesh is a prime example but also Alfred Pearsson or however you spell his name, which I think he finally had enough).

PP

I believe he [Mr. Persson] even dusted his feet off at us. Ouch.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 03:09:29 PM by JLatimer » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2011, 03:05:55 PM »

No insults necessary, just refutation. Someone has laid an assault on our church and her practices and we should do our best to show him (and others) why he is in error.
We have, multiple folks, multiple times. However he does what many folks do. They choose to ignore arguments or facts to which they can not readily google-fu or dispute and focus on ones they think they can (yesh is a prime example but also Alfred Pearsson or however you spell his name, which I think he finally had enough).

PP

I believe he even dusted his feet off at us. Ouch.

Evidently there's dust left on the shoe.

PP
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« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2011, 03:11:34 PM »

Here is our response to Yeshuaisiam's accusation regarding call no man father:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37784.0.html

Has anyone addressed his claims regarding prostrations, sign of the cross, and kissing icons?
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« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2011, 03:23:31 PM »

Prostration? Easy.

Genesis 17:3
Quote
Abram fell face down, and God said to him...
Genesis 24:51-53
Quote
When Abraham’s servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the LORD
Exodus 34:7-9
Quote
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped
Mark 14:34-36
Quote
Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him

There's a bunch more. prostration is all over scripture. I'd expect someone who espouses sola scriptura would at least pick up a bible every now and then.....

As for icons, I find it funny that folks that hate on icons usually go to church where there is a huge cross (icon of the crucifixion last I checked) in the front of the church. Not to mention that God had the Ark made with cherubim on the top of it.

I think Isa covered the sign of the cross argument somewhere. I dont remember exactly where...

Ah, I forgot another one. The snarky remark about the repetitive prayers...I suppose Revelation 4:8 Doesn't get your griddle too much then

Quote
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME


Here, the woodshed is this way....




PP
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 03:32:48 PM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2011, 05:01:11 PM »

Quote
Perhaps calling your bishops Master and priests Father through many centuries watching them enter the "royal doors" and hearing your "confession & give absolution" creates a psychological subservient behavior of parishioners

If you think Orthodox laypeople are psychologically subservient to the clergy, you've been hanging out with the wrong Orthodox laypeople (or perhaps you've never even met an Orthodox, layman or cleric).

bzzzt wrong.  They are subservient in the scope of religion for sure.  How else were golden iconostasises built in Russia from peasant farmer wages?
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« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2011, 05:21:22 PM »

No insults necessary, just refutation. Someone has laid an assault on our church and her practices and we should do our best to show him (and others) why he is in error.
We have, multiple folks, multiple times. However he does what many folks do. They choose to ignore arguments or facts to which they can not readily google-fu or dispute and focus on ones they think they can (yesh is a prime example but also Alfred Pearsson or however you spell his name, which I think he finally had enough).

PP

No you HAVE NOT nor has anybody else.  What you do is try to give explanations on WHY you are DISOBEYING Christ.  Let me give you an example.

Let's just make it simple...  Let's use a burglar.


A burglar hears the commandment "Thou shalt not steal".
A burglar walks by a glass window and sees a diamond ring and thinks "well let's see would it be stealing if I was "really" helping people".
The burglar thinks for a minute and considers what his crime would do.  He thinks:

1) If I break the glass I get a free $2000 ring.
2) The insurance company pays for the owner's damages and to replace the ring so the owner is not out money...
3) All the people in the area get scared so they buy more insurance so the insurance company is not out money...
4) If I am caught I go to jail, which the janitors, jailers, and wardens make more money and I'm giving them a job....
5) If I am caught I also get free meals and housing so its good for me too

Guys, this is how Satan works often in temptations.  He uses justification in order to have you sin.

Now look at what Yeshua said:

Matthew 23:8 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Please understand this is what God said.  Okay?  Please read it very carefully.  He was speaking in the direct context of spiritual leaders & teachers.

So here are the "explanations that I get"

1) We can do it because so and so did it in the bible.
2) We can do it because we have some records of so and so Christian doing so.
3) We don't mean father in a literal sense, we mean it as a spiritual leader teacher father.
4) I've even had a message "The priest is the Father and represents Christ in the Liturgy" LOL!
5) We are following the example of saint this or that

When we have to give explanations AROUND the commands of God, you are sinning.  If you believe that Yeshua was God then you must understand that God has directly told you "Call NO MAN FATHER, and Call NO MAN MASTER".

What are priests called in Eastern Orthodoxy - Father
What are bishops called in Eastern Orthodoxy - "Bless MASTER"

That is called disobedience to God.    But no, people think I'm going to accept "explanations".  ie - "We've already explained this to you".

No my friends you've explained to me the reasons that you keep defying the command of God incarnate.
You've explained to me the reasoning Eastern Orthodoxy gives you to disobey God.
You've explained to me a tradition of sin that has lasted for generations which directly defies what our Messiah told us NOT to do.


I don't think that some of you understand that explanations of things that God directly told us not to do is from the  deceiver ("father of lies" "liar since the beginning").

So when we have a clear and direct text of God saying "Do not call a man Father, Master, or Rabbi" (when speaking of people of religious importance) and you go on and give reasons and explanations to go ahead and do it anyway, then you are letting satan convince you the same way he convinces the burglar.    I use that analogy because it is clear cut to all of us that the burglar is wrong, but to him he thinks its a win / win. 

For the Eastern Orthodox they see this as justified, respectful, traditional, etc.   But it's wrong because God told us not to do it.
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« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2011, 05:28:32 PM »

Prostration? Easy.

Genesis 17:3
Quote
Abram fell face down, and God said to him...
Genesis 24:51-53
Quote
When Abraham’s servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the LORD
Exodus 34:7-9
Quote
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped
Mark 14:34-36
Quote
Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him

There's a bunch more. prostration is all over scripture. I'd expect someone who espouses sola scriptura would at least pick up a bible every now and then.....

As for icons, I find it funny that folks that hate on icons usually go to church where there is a huge cross (icon of the crucifixion last I checked) in the front of the church. Not to mention that God had the Ark made with cherubim on the top of it.

I think Isa covered the sign of the cross argument somewhere. I dont remember exactly where...

Ah, I forgot another one. The snarky remark about the repetitive prayers...I suppose Revelation 4:8 Doesn't get your griddle too much then

Quote
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME


Here, the woodshed is this way....



PP

Great examples of prostration.  The issue is not with prostration so please don't twist what I was saying.

Bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross.  I've seen it done 40-50 times in a row.  It's fanatical and weird.  Jesus prayer 100x times "no it's not VAIN repetitions"  LOL.  Yes it is!  and it's fanatical.

So the examples you gave me are when Abraham and Moses were before God.  They BOWED.  They didn't cross bow cross bow cross bow half prostration, full prostration.  They bowed.  Jesus (Yeshua) bowed.

So when you are before the body & blood bow.  But does God really want you to cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow....... There's no excuse for that.  It's very strange and you know and I know that clergy do that like crazy.   I've seen it, I've witnessed it.... I've seen it in monasteries, St. Vladimir's seminary, and too many EO churches to count.  

By the way, Anabaptist is not solo scriptura either.  Why a woodshed?  I have a trailer and I need some wood.

Also, a cross without Christ on it in many churches is not a likeness of anything on Earth or in Heaven.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 05:34:18 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2011, 05:32:22 PM »

Here is our response to Yeshuaisiam's accusation regarding call no man father:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37784.0.html

Has anyone addressed his claims regarding prostrations, sign of the cross, and kissing icons?

See two answers up.
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« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2011, 05:55:31 PM »

Also, a cross without Christ on it in many churches is not a likeness of anything on Earth or in Heaven.

How on earth (pun intended) do you figure that?
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« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2011, 07:45:18 PM »

When we have to give explanations AROUND the commands of God, you are sinning.  If you believe that Yeshua was God then you must understand that God has directly told you "Call NO MAN FATHER, and Call NO MAN MASTER".

What are priests called in Eastern Orthodoxy - Father
What are bishops called in Eastern Orthodoxy - "Bless MASTER"....  But it's wrong because God told us not to do it.
It is the same in R Catholic Church where priests are called Father also. And the Pope is called Holy Father. The only thing that I can come up with in response is that perhaps certain passages in the Bible are not supposed to be taken literally. There are several examples of passages that are meant in a figurative non-literal sense, for example, the one about it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than it would be for a rich man to enter heaven.
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« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2011, 07:51:15 PM »

Do we have to post all those passages again, about Jesus using the word father, about Paul referring to himself as someone's father in the faith, and how Jesus addressed his command to the Apostles and not the general public? Really?

Does yesh not even know what the word 'context' means?  Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2011, 08:32:51 PM »

Quote
Perhaps calling your bishops Master and priests Father through many centuries watching them enter the "royal doors" and hearing your "confession & give absolution" creates a psychological subservient behavior of parishioners

If you think Orthodox laypeople are psychologically subservient to the clergy, you've been hanging out with the wrong Orthodox laypeople (or perhaps you've never even met an Orthodox, layman or cleric).

bzzzt wrong.  They are subservient in the scope of religion for sure.  How else were golden iconostasises built in Russia from peasant farmer wages?

How do you think the Jewish temples in the OT were built?
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« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2011, 08:34:20 PM »

Do we have to post all those passages again, about Jesus using the word father, about Paul referring to himself as someone's father in the faith, and how Jesus addressed his command to the Apostles and not the general public? Really?

Does yesh not even know what the word 'context' means?  Huh Huh Huh

As far as i'm concerned, the topic of "call no man father" is done and dusted. We covered that extensively in the other thread. We've given him all the angles, all the perspectives that we can offer on that subject I believe. If he doesn't want to accept the answers we gave him then so be it. Others who read the thread can judge whether or not we adequately addressed his concerns. However, I think we could say more regarding veneration of icons, repetition of prayers, sign of the cross, etc.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 08:35:39 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2011, 08:41:14 PM »

Prostration? Easy.

Genesis 17:3
Quote
Abram fell face down, and God said to him...
Genesis 24:51-53
Quote
When Abraham’s servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the LORD
Exodus 34:7-9
Quote
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped
Mark 14:34-36
Quote
Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him

There's a bunch more. prostration is all over scripture. I'd expect someone who espouses sola scriptura would at least pick up a bible every now and then.....

As for icons, I find it funny that folks that hate on icons usually go to church where there is a huge cross (icon of the crucifixion last I checked) in the front of the church. Not to mention that God had the Ark made with cherubim on the top of it.

I think Isa covered the sign of the cross argument somewhere. I dont remember exactly where...

Ah, I forgot another one. The snarky remark about the repetitive prayers...I suppose Revelation 4:8 Doesn't get your griddle too much then

Quote
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME


Here, the woodshed is this way....



PP

Great examples of prostration.  The issue is not with prostration so please don't twist what I was saying.

Bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross.  I've seen it done 40-50 times in a row.  It's fanatical and weird.  Jesus prayer 100x times "no it's not VAIN repetitions"  LOL.  Yes it is!  and it's fanatical.

So the examples you gave me are when Abraham and Moses were before God.  They BOWED.  They didn't cross bow cross bow cross bow half prostration, full prostration.  They bowed.  Jesus (Yeshua) bowed.

So when you are before the body & blood bow.  But does God really want you to cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow - cross - bow....... There's no excuse for that.  It's very strange and you know and I know that clergy do that like crazy.   I've seen it, I've witnessed it.... I've seen it in monasteries, St. Vladimir's seminary, and too many EO churches to count.  

By the way, Anabaptist is not solo scriptura either.  Why a woodshed?  I have a trailer and I need some wood.

Also, a cross without Christ on it in many churches is not a likeness of anything on Earth or in Heaven.

Do you think some of Christ's disciples found it "weird" when he went into the garden to say the same prayer 3 times? Why would he do that? Wouldn't once be enough? Didn't God hear him the first time? Maybe we should ask Jesus. Or then again, you could just ask any Jew. The jews used repetition in prayers all the time during worship. It would not be uncommon for a Jew to make the same petition many times. Why would Jesus tell us not to do something he himself did? Surely there's more to the story here...
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