Author Topic: The Sacred Heart  (Read 78011 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #135 on: August 22, 2011, 10:26:03 PM »
The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
But you do venerate parts of the bodies of His Saints. If these can work as metonymies of the whole human vessel of God's glory and ultimately pass on the honor to God Himself, how is that any different from the Sacred Heart?
They are not metonymies.

Take for instance the incorrupt relics of St. John Maximovich.  His whole body is there.  I just venerated the hand, there is no reason to kiss every square inch of him, as his hand is conected to the rest of him.  I once venerated the arm of St. George, which is still conected with the rest of him, in particular his soul/spirit in heaven.  The icon of him with the relic showed all of him, not just his arm.
But that's just my point. Just like St. John and his hand, Jesus' heart is still connected with the rest of Him. Why can't one venerate His heart and not just have to venerate "every square inch of Him?" The woman with the issue of blood said just touching Jesus' garment would be enough to heal her. I don't recall His clothes being fused to His body.
I don't recall a devotion of the sacred fringe either.
There's no relics of Jesus' clothing? I'm surprised.
There are, just no cults devoted to them.
What is your definition of a cult? Isn't all veneration a cult?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #136 on: August 22, 2011, 10:29:43 PM »
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What is your definition of a cult? Isn't all veneration a cult?

Not every cult of veneration becomes part of Holy Tradition.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 10:38:31 PM by LBK »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #137 on: August 22, 2011, 10:31:32 PM »
Quote
On a related note: It is interesting to me, Irish Hermit, the extent to which you oppose the Toll House theory and the depth of thought you're willing to expend in defending your position, and yet you won't extend the same courtesy here. All you see is "Sacred Heart" and all you think is "psychosexual orgasmic dreams of an insane woman" and go no further.

The notion of toll houses is, at best, a theologoumenon, a pious opinion held by some, and in no way espoused by the Church as a whole. I'm not sure devotion to the sacred heart could even be called a theologoumenon. And there has never been a feast of the Church based on a theologoumenon.

I'm not comparing the two, LBK. I'm talking about Irish Hermit's selective use of brain power.

No selective use of brain power.  I have not encountered the Sacred Heart in the Church until the last few weeks when it was raised on Occidentalis.

The last time it came up for me was when a Lebanese family donated a large and expensive  image, in the early 1980s.  The WR Antiochian priest was in a quandary.  He refused to display it in the church but he put it out of sight in the altar area from where it eventually disappeared.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #138 on: August 22, 2011, 10:31:58 PM »
Quote
What is your definition of a cult? Isn't all veneration a cult?

Not evert cult of veneration becomes part of Holy Tradition.
True. But some do, and that puts paid the, "You're cutting Jesus up" argument.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #139 on: August 22, 2011, 10:41:34 PM »
On a related note: It is interesting to me, Irish Hermit, the extent to which you oppose the Toll House theory and the depth of thought you're willing to expend in defending your position, and yet you won't extend the same courtesy here. All you see is "Sacred Heart" and all you think is "psychosexual orgasmic dreams of an insane woman" and go no further.

I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?

How many WR Orthodox are you talking about?  How many WR churches display this picture apart from Fr Miguel Lobos'?  Why do so many WR priests reject it, including all in the Russisn Church?

I still want to know.  If the cult of the Sacred Heart is so solidly established in the patristic writings and the authentic tradition of the Church, why do so many of the WR clergy reject it?    Are they stupid?  Don't they find the writings of people such as Sleeper convincing?  Sleeper's first work is to convince his or her own people.

Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #140 on: August 22, 2011, 10:43:09 PM »
On a related note: It is interesting to me, Irish Hermit, the extent to which you oppose the Toll House theory and the depth of thought you're willing to expend in defending your position, and yet you won't extend the same courtesy here. All you see is "Sacred Heart" and all you think is "psychosexual orgasmic dreams of an insane woman" and go no further.

I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?

How many WR Orthodox are you talking about?

I don't know. And I'm not one of them.

Quote
How many WR churches display this picture apart from Fr Miguel Lobos'?

Your obsession with the picture continues to puzzle me. Please, explain what it has to do with anything I've said.

Quote
Why do so many WR priests reject it, including all in the Russisn Church?

Because the Russian brand of WRO tends to be built upon a reconstructionist model that says, "Because Rome is so far gone, and everything she’s done since the schism is seriously suspect, we have to reconstruct a “Latin Orthodoxy” from some golden age and place." It is a movement built on idealism, so it sets the clock back to before (the arbitrarily dated "schism") 1054 AD, "resurrects" liturgies based upon what historical evidence we have before us and blesses individual priests to bring this new vision of a Western Orthodoxy to the masses.

The Antiochian approach, on the other hand, is one of genuine ecumenism and reunion. It was decided that any Western expression of the Faith was to be based upon the living liturgy/patrimony of the West and only whole parishes could enter, there would be no blessing of individuals to the Western Rite. It was not premised on a sectarian narrative opposed to post-Schismatic Rome, but took whole parishes, with their whole communal life of expression and devotion, regardless of date or alleged origins, and so long as things were harmonized with sound theology, blessed for use.

Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #141 on: August 22, 2011, 10:48:15 PM »
On a related note: It is interesting to me, Irish Hermit, the extent to which you oppose the Toll House theory and the depth of thought you're willing to expend in defending your position, and yet you won't extend the same courtesy here. All you see is "Sacred Heart" and all you think is "psychosexual orgasmic dreams of an insane woman" and go no further.

I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?

How many WR Orthodox are you talking about?  How many WR churches display this picture apart from Fr Miguel Lobos'?  Why do so many WR priests reject it, including all in the Russisn Church?

I still want to know.  If the cult of the Sacred Heart is so solidly established in the patristic writings and the authentic tradition of the Church, why do so many of the WR clergy reject it?    Are they stupid?  Don't they find the writings of people such as Sleeper convincing?  Sleeper's first work is to convince his or her own people.

So many reject it because so many refuse to see it as anything other than what Margaret Mary put forth. I know the group of which you speak, Occidentalis, and I see them always throwing around terms like "macabre" despite repeated explanations that the devotion has nothing to do with physical organs. Even hear, it's as if you have turned your eyes off and only see what you want to see.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #142 on: August 22, 2011, 11:03:04 PM »

Because the Russian brand of WRO tends to be built upon a reconstructionist model that says, "Because Rome is so far gone, and everything she’s done since the schism is seriously suspect, we have to reconstruct a “Latin Orthodoxy” from some golden age and place." It is a movement built on idealism, so it sets the clock back to before (the arbitrarily dated "schism") 1054 AD, "resurrects" liturgies based upon what historical evidence we have before us and blesses individual priests to bring this new vision of a Western Orthodoxy to the masses.



Sleeper, this just isn't so.

1.  Fr. Augustine Whitfield always kept his "Use of Mt. Royal" based on the Carthusians;

2.  Fr. James Deschene [Canadian monastery] follows, from what I understand, the "Black Benedictine" books, with a more or less Tridentine form of the Mass;

3.  Fr. Michael in Tasmania has his own liturgical preferences [based on the BCP]

4.  Fr [ex-Archbishop] Anthony Bondi who recently entered the Ruissian Church Abroad with about 15 of his priests follows a quite modern liturgical style.  I am not really acquainted with it. 

Here is their Liturgy  http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/docs/FraternityOfSaintGregoryOfficialLiturgy.pdf 

It would be the dominant Liturgy today in the Russian Church Abroad.


Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #143 on: August 22, 2011, 11:14:11 PM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #144 on: August 22, 2011, 11:18:09 PM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

ROCA aside, why is the Sacred Heart rejected by the majority of your Antiochian priests?    Are they simply ignorant men who have no idea of its patristic base?

Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #145 on: August 22, 2011, 11:28:24 PM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

ROCA aside, why is the Sacred Heart rejected by the majority of your Antiochian priests?    Are they simply ignorant men who have no idea of its patristic base?

Is it rejected? I'd like to see something in writing, if you have it. I've corresponded with many Antiochian priests, and read most of the literature that has been made available (and some that hasn't) in regards to devotional/liturgical practices and I can't say that I've encountered any "rejections" as much as just...indifference.

Believe it or not, I fall into the latter category. I don't much care for the feast or the devotion, I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context. I'll defend it if for the simple fact that no one else around here will and lurking readers might find it beneficial to be exposed to the historical precedent for the devotion aside from "psychosexual" visions.

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #146 on: August 22, 2011, 11:34:47 PM »
Quote
Believe it or not, I fall into the latter category. I don't much care for the feast or the devotion, I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context.

Is it your call as to what becomes part of the devotional tradition of the Church? As for the "justifications" for a "form" of devotion to the heart of Jesus, is not established Orthodox hymnography (including prayers in any Orthodox prayerbook) replete with references to the love, mercy, compassion and sacrifice of Christ? Why the need to single out one of these attributes for special veneration?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #147 on: August 22, 2011, 11:36:47 PM »
Quote
Believe it or not, I fall into the latter category. I don't much care for the feast or the devotion, I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context.

Is it your call as to what becomes part of the devotional tradition of the Church?

I'm not sure what you mean?

Quote
As for the "justifications" for a "form" of devotion to the heart of Jesus, is not established Orthodox hymnography (including prayers in any Orthodox prayerbook) replete with references to the love, mercy, compassion and sacrifice of Christ? Why the need to single out one of these attributes for special veneration?

Which attribute would that be?

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #148 on: August 22, 2011, 11:48:29 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure what you mean?

Here are your words again, Sleeper: I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context.

I ask again: Is it your call as to what becomes part of the devotional tradition of the Church?

Quote
Which attribute would that be?


Have you not posted great slabs of writings supporting the notion of the Passion of Christ being the justification of some sort of neo-Orthodox devotion to the sacred heart? Aren't the services for Lazarus' Saturday and Holy Week adequate?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #149 on: August 22, 2011, 11:53:18 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure what you mean?

Here are your words again, Sleeper: I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context.

I ask again: Is it your call as to what becomes part of the devotional tradition of the Church?

Um...no? I don't know what point you're trying to make. Did I imply that I was? Irish Hermit said many WR are opposed to, and I said that I was not and support its use, though I don't use it personally. What's so confusing about that?

Quote
Have you not posted great slabs of writings supporting the notion of the Passion of Christ being the justification of some sort of neo-Orthodox devotion to the sacred heart? Aren't the services for Lazarus' Saturday and Holy Week adequate?

Do you understand what Western Orthodoxy is?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 11:53:37 PM by Sleeper »

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2011, 11:57:31 PM »
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Do you understand what Western Orthodoxy is?

Anything (teachings, iconography, hymnography, prayers, devotions) that does not conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine is not Orthodox. Its hemisphere of origin is irrelevant.
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #151 on: August 23, 2011, 12:04:39 AM »
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Do you understand what Western Orthodoxy is?

Anything (teachings, iconography, hymnography, prayers, devotions) that does not conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine is not Orthodox. Its hemisphere of origin is irrelevant.

Agreed. And anything that does conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine (teachings, art, hymns, prayers, devotions) is Orthodox. Its hemisphere or date of origin is irrelevant.


Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2011, 12:09:34 AM »
Quote
Do you understand what Western Orthodoxy is?

Anything (teachings, iconography, hymnography, prayers, devotions) that does not conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine is not Orthodox. Its hemisphere of origin is irrelevant.

Agreed. And anything that does conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine (teachings, art, hymns, prayers, devotions) is Orthodox. Its hemisphere or date of origin is irrelevant.



Yet where is there established Orthodox devotion to the sacred heart? It's completely absent in the east, and practically absent in the WR, as Irish Hermit keeps saying. And you are neither bishop, nor hymnographer, to insist that such a devotion become part of Orthodoxy.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 12:10:54 AM by LBK »
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2011, 12:31:38 AM »
Quote
Do you understand what Western Orthodoxy is?

Anything (teachings, iconography, hymnography, prayers, devotions) that does not conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine is not Orthodox. Its hemisphere of origin is irrelevant.

Agreed. And anything that does conform with established Orthodox theology and doctrine (teachings, art, hymns, prayers, devotions) is Orthodox. Its hemisphere or date of origin is irrelevant.



Yet where is there established Orthodox devotion to the sacred heart? It's completely absent in the east, and practically absent in the WR, as Irish Hermit keeps saying. And you are neither bishop, nor hymnographer, to insist that such a devotion become part of Orthodoxy.

I encourage only what my Metropolitan himself has encouraged (and in some sense, insisted upon). As stated in point 2 of the Western Rite Commission: "2.   Parishes and larger units received into the Archdiocese retain the use of all Western rites, devotions, and customs which are not contrary to the Orthodox Faith and are logically derived from a Western usage antedating the Schism of 1054."

The debate, then, is on whether or not such things as Sacred Heart are "contrary" to the Faith, and I have posted a quite lengthy entry detailing how it can be understood as consonant with the Truth of the Mystery of the Passion, and logically derived from the Western patristic synthesis.

I don't know why you keep thinking I'm placing myself above my hierarchs as some sort of arbiter of devotional practices. Perhaps you were unaware that we have been given the fullest of blessings to carry out these devotions.

Offline witega

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2011, 12:43:37 AM »
which are not contrary to the Orthodox Faith and are logically derived from a Western usage antedating the Schism of 1054."

But it doesn't 'derive from a Western usage antedating the Schism of 1054'. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia, a decidedly friendly source says "But there is nothing to indicate that, during the first ten centuries, any worship was rendered the wounded Heart. It is in the eleventh and twelfth centuries that we find the first unmistakable indications of devotion to the Sacred Heart." Not a single individual among those it goes on to name as involved in the origin and growth of the devotion was even born at the time of the Schism of 1054.
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Offline Robb

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2011, 01:03:10 AM »
On a related note: It is interesting to me, Irish Hermit, the extent to which you oppose the Toll House theory and the depth of thought you're willing to expend in defending your position, and yet you won't extend the same courtesy here. All you see is "Sacred Heart" and all you think is "psychosexual orgasmic dreams of an insane woman" and go no further.

I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?

How many WR Orthodox are you talking about?  How many WR churches display this picture apart from Fr Miguel Lobos'?  Why do so many WR priests reject it, including all in the Russisn Church?

I still want to know.  If the cult of the Sacred Heart is so solidly established in the patristic writings and the authentic tradition of the Church, why do so many of the WR clergy reject it?    Are they stupid?  Don't they find the writings of people such as Sleeper convincing?  Sleeper's first work is to convince his or her own people.

Its looks like many WR clergy are afraid to approve of the devotion due to unfairly being labeled as "Romanist" by many Eastern rite Orthodox.  The whole WR appears to be held in deep suspicion by many EO's (Much like the Tridentine mass movement is with many RC's).  You have both clergy and laity who want to be seen and respected as fully Orthodox while practicing Western Rites, yet they may feel that com primsing their legitimate western traditions and devotions is the only way to secure that respect and acceptance.  This is also very similar to the process of Latinization that many EC's once underwent in order to appear as fully Catholic to their Latin rite brothers.  Its a shame, but pineing for acceptance always comes with a price.
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Offline Robb

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2011, 01:18:13 AM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

If WR Orthodox have to reject everything Western that came about after the schism, then their going to have precious little of a rite to worship in.  If you look at Western Church history, the Latin rite (although existing in Rome) Really didn't start to develop much of its unique character and spirituality until the Medevil period. Most of Western Europe (British Isles excluded) Wasn't even evangelized until the last half of the first Millennium.  The pagan Germanic tribes took several centuries before they could become civilized and begin to embrace bot the outward devotion and inward piety needed to organically develop a liturgical rite. 

The true growth, both externally and internally of the Western rite didn't get moving until around the time of the Schism in the 11Th century when Western Christiandom began to develop a separate identity and spirituality from the East.  If EO WR is ever able to truly be seen and respected as fully Orthodox then they must start asserting their legitimate right to their historic patrimony of faith and devotion, even if that means pushing back the dreaded bar some centuries past !)%$ AD.  If this doesn't occur then the WR will never be anything more then a museum piece within EO society. 

If only the WR could produce some strong defenders and not just clergy cow tailing for acceptance by much larger Byzantine branch of Orthodoxy then maybe they would start to take off.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2011, 04:54:33 AM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

If WR Orthodox have to reject everything Western that came about after the schism, then their going to have precious little of a rite to worship in.


Within the Western Rite practices in the Russian Church Abroad there are four Rites (or more) being used,  all of them POST schism.

We can say there are five if we add in one solitary parish in the States where the priest uses the Gallican Rite developed in France under Saint John Maximovitch which is a pastiche of Western and Byzantine.

The Rites used by Antioch are also very much POST schism,  and as I understand it their cut-off point is only 50 years ago, 1956, just 10 years before the changes which came after Vatican II.

So all our Western Rite litirgics are POST schism.

The possible exception is Fr Aidan Keller's Sarum Rite which straddles the cusp of the schism.  But Fr Aidan is now in an Eastern Rite parish.


Offline Michał

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #158 on: August 23, 2011, 05:44:08 AM »
The possible exception is Fr Aidan Keller's Sarum Rite which straddles the cusp of the schism.  But Fr Aidan is now in an Eastern Rite parish.

What about the Sarum Rite of Archbishop John (Lobue), used (along with the so-called Rite of Mount Royal) by Fr. Abbot David (Pierce)?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2011, 05:58:27 AM »
I do not count "Metropolitan" LoBue as a hierarch of the Orthodox Church and find it impossible to admit his claims to be an Orthodox Metropolitan.  I understand that the official position of the Forum does not count them as an Orthodox Church. Since he became independent from European Milan a few months ago he and his people have been labelling us as satanic.  See here  http://tinyurl.com/3aq5k4u

Oddly enough the more they attack us the more their own clergy desert them in the search for authentic Orthdoxy.  Ten of their priests have now joined the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and there are 2 more in process.

This group is very critical of both ROCA and Antioch for the use of post schism rites, claiming that they alone are an authentic pre-schism ritual Church.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 06:29:44 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2011, 06:09:25 AM »
The possible exception is Fr Aidan Keller's Sarum Rite which straddles the cusp of the schism.  But Fr Aidan is now in an Eastern Rite parish.

What about the Sarum Rite of Archbishop John (Lobue), used (along with the so-called Rite of Mount Royal) by Fr. Abbot David (Pierce)?

Since there has been a bit of interest in which Rite we use, it goes like this:

I have a blessing to use the Sarum (Abp John) or St. Petroc. I was also given
an obedience to care for Fr. Augustine (Whitfield) who reposed in July. During
that time I celebrated Sarum on Feasts and some Sundays, but "Mt.Royal" when
Father was able to serve. When he got too sick to chant Liturgy, he had his
"people" (a small group of non-monastic Orthodox Christians) start attending
here. Sarum was very confusing since they had been bred on "Mt. Royal". The
solution, at least in the short term was to continue the Mt Royal Liturgy
(appropriate as I am now Abbot of Mt. Royal), but try to bring it more "in line"
with other traditional Western Uses (Sarum). Fr. AUgustine always used Sarum
propers in his rite but felt that full-blown Sarum was too distracting for one
priest in a hermit chapel. I might also add, that I also, on occasion serve the
Eastern Rite as well.
Abbot David Cuthbert Pierce
http://tinyurl.com/3c8pmnw

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2011, 06:27:07 AM »
Has anybody read through this thread from 2006?

Orthodox objections to the Sacred Heart Devotion

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9055.0.html

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2011, 06:36:25 AM »
Since there has been a bit of interest in which Rite we use, it goes like this:

I have a blessing to use the Sarum (Abp John) or St. Petroc. I was also given
an obedience to care for Fr. Augustine (Whitfield) who reposed in July. During
that time I celebrated Sarum on Feasts and some Sundays, but "Mt.Royal" when
Father was able to serve. When he got too sick to chant Liturgy, he had his
"people" (a small group of non-monastic Orthodox Christians) start attending
here. Sarum was very confusing since they had been bred on "Mt. Royal". The
solution, at least in the short term was to continue the Mt Royal Liturgy
(appropriate as I am now Abbot of Mt. Royal), but try to bring it more "in line"
with other traditional Western Uses (Sarum). Fr. AUgustine always used Sarum
propers in his rite but felt that full-blown Sarum was too distracting for one
priest in a hermit chapel. I might also add, that I also, on occasion serve the
Eastern Rite as well.
Abbot David Cuthbert Pierce
http://tinyurl.com/3c8pmnw

I see.

I wonder what kind of Liturgies are in use among the more recent ex-Milan/Autonomous Metropolia priests...

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #163 on: August 23, 2011, 06:42:23 AM »
Has anybody read through this thread from 2006?

Orthodox objections to the Sacred Heart Devotion

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9055.0.html
A while ago. I'll check it again.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #164 on: August 23, 2011, 06:45:07 AM »
I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?


Are not the bowels seen as the seat of compassion?  A devotion to the Sacred Bowels could be developed from a scriptural basis.

Here is just a fraction of the Bible's references to bowels...


1 John 3:17 But whoever has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?


Luke 1:78 on account of the bowels of mercy of our God; wherein the dayspring from on high has visited

Philippians 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #165 on: August 23, 2011, 06:48:24 AM »
Since there has been a bit of interest in which Rite we use, it goes like this:

I have a blessing to use the Sarum (Abp John) or St. Petroc. I was also given
an obedience to care for Fr. Augustine (Whitfield) who reposed in July. During
that time I celebrated Sarum on Feasts and some Sundays, but "Mt.Royal" when
Father was able to serve. When he got too sick to chant Liturgy, he had his
"people" (a small group of non-monastic Orthodox Christians) start attending
here. Sarum was very confusing since they had been bred on "Mt. Royal". The
solution, at least in the short term was to continue the Mt Royal Liturgy
(appropriate as I am now Abbot of Mt. Royal), but try to bring it more "in line"
with other traditional Western Uses (Sarum). Fr. AUgustine always used Sarum
propers in his rite but felt that full-blown Sarum was too distracting for one
priest in a hermit chapel. I might also add, that I also, on occasion serve the
Eastern Rite as well.
Abbot David Cuthbert Pierce
http://tinyurl.com/3c8pmnw

I see.

I wonder what kind of Liturgies are in use among the more recent ex-Milan/Autonomous Metropolia priests...

Let me put the question to Father Anthony Bondi since they are now (most of them) members of his Fraternity of Saint Gregory.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #166 on: August 23, 2011, 06:50:44 AM »
I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?


Are not the bowels seen as the seat of compassion?  A devotion to the Sacred Bowels could be developed from a scriptural basis.

Here is just a fraction of the Bible's references to bowels...


1 John 3:17 But whoever has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?


Luke 1:78 on account of the bowels of mercy of our God; wherein the dayspring from on high has visited

Philippians 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ
Well, if you're going to venerate a foreskin, might as well allow this too...


I've also heard Orthodox say they'd eat dog crap if Jesus had pointed to it and said, "This is my Body."
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #167 on: August 23, 2011, 06:53:01 AM »
I'm not asking your or anyone else to "be okay" with devotion to Christ's Compassion, I'm only asking that you stop railing against it based on something entirely different, and at least try to see where some Western Orthodox are coming from. Is that so difficult?


Are not the bowels seen as the seat of compassion?  A devotion to the Sacred Bowels could be developed from a scriptural basis.

Here is just a fraction of the Bible's references to bowels...


1 John 3:17 But whoever has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?


Luke 1:78 on account of the bowels of mercy of our God; wherein the dayspring from on high has visited

Philippians 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ
Well, if you're going to venerate a foreskin, might as well allow this too...


I've also heard Orthodox say they'd eat dog crap if Jesus had pointed to it and said, "This is my Body."

Ughhh!  Pleased to say I have never heard that.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #168 on: August 23, 2011, 06:57:37 AM »
Yeah, struck me as odd too, though I guess change in substance is change is substance  :-\

But what makes venerating a foreskin any worse than venerating bowels?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #169 on: August 23, 2011, 07:04:17 AM »
Yeah, struck me as odd too, though I guess change in substance is change is substance  :-\

But what makes venerating a foreskin any worse than venerating bowels?

The bowels are seen as the seat of compassion.  I din't know what a foreskin is seen as the centre of?

If the Sacred Foreskin is ever recovered (oh, those careless Catholics!) it will no doubt be worshipped again.




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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #170 on: August 23, 2011, 07:16:17 AM »
Yeah, struck me as odd too, though I guess change in substance is change is substance  :-\

But what makes venerating a foreskin any worse than venerating bowels?

The bowels are seen as the seat of compassion.  I din't know what a foreskin is seen as the centre of?

If the Sacred Foreskin is ever recovered (oh, those careless Catholics!) it will no doubt be worshipped again.




So you don't mind venerating wiener skin but a symbolic devotion to poop tubes is too weird for you?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #171 on: August 23, 2011, 07:57:59 AM »
Yeah, struck me as odd too, though I guess change in substance is change is substance  :-\

But what makes venerating a foreskin any worse than venerating bowels?

The bowels are seen as the seat of compassion.  I din't know what a foreskin is seen as the centre of?

If the Sacred Foreskin is ever recovered (oh, those careless Catholics!) it will no doubt be worshipped again.




So you don't mind venerating wiener skin but a symbolic devotion to poop tubes is too weird for you?

Have you actually seen a human heart?   It's no more lovable and beautiful than the liver or the kidneys or the bowels.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2011, 08:12:15 AM »
Yeah, struck me as odd too, though I guess change in substance is change is substance  :-\

But what makes venerating a foreskin any worse than venerating bowels?

The bowels are seen as the seat of compassion.  I din't know what a foreskin is seen as the centre of?

If the Sacred Foreskin is ever recovered (oh, those careless Catholics!) it will no doubt be worshipped again.




So you don't mind venerating wiener skin but a symbolic devotion to poop tubes is too weird for you?

Have you actually seen a human heart?   It's no more lovable and beautiful than the liver or the kidneys or the bowels.
Tell that to an anatomist. But again, the real point of the Sacred Heart (as I thought was the case of all veneration anyway, but I guess I was wrong) is more Jesus' heart's spiritual/metaphoric significance as an instrument of God's glory and compassion.


Besides, "Have you actually seen a human foreskin?..."
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 08:15:11 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2011, 08:24:49 AM »

Tell that to an anatomist. But again, the real point of the Sacred Heart (as I thought was the case of all veneration anyway, but I guess I was wrong) is more Jesus' heart's spiritual/metaphoric significance as an instrument of God's glory and compassion.

This is a cute one.  Wonder if the parishioners would accept it in church?


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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2011, 08:34:05 AM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.


Or, you know... a severed foreskin...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 08:34:57 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #175 on: August 23, 2011, 08:39:34 AM »

As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.


Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #176 on: August 23, 2011, 08:40:22 AM »
The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
But you do venerate parts of the bodies of His Saints. If these can work as metonymies of the whole human vessel of God's glory and ultimately pass on the honor to God Himself, how is that any different from the Sacred Heart?
They are not metonymies.

Take for instance the incorrupt relics of St. John Maximovich.  His whole body is there.  I just venerated the hand, there is no reason to kiss every square inch of him, as his hand is conected to the rest of him.  I once venerated the arm of St. George, which is still conected with the rest of him, in particular his soul/spirit in heaven.  The icon of him with the relic showed all of him, not just his arm.
But that's just my point. Just like St. John and his hand, Jesus' heart is still connected with the rest of Him. Why can't one venerate His heart and not just have to venerate "every square inch of Him?" The woman with the issue of blood said just touching Jesus' garment would be enough to heal her. I don't recall His clothes being fused to His body.
I don't recall a devotion of the sacred fringe either.
There's no relics of Jesus' clothing? I'm surprised.

The robe of the Lord is under a pillar in the Mtshketa cathedral in Georgia. People venerate the pillar, but I don't recall a feast of the Robe itself. There may be a feast of its translation. I seem to remember it supposedly being brought to Moscow, though I doubt it since those who touch it tend to die.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #177 on: August 23, 2011, 08:44:47 AM »

As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.


Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #178 on: August 23, 2011, 08:54:26 AM »
Since there has been a bit of interest in which Rite we use, it goes like this:

I have a blessing to use the Sarum (Abp John) or St. Petroc. I was also given
an obedience to care for Fr. Augustine (Whitfield) who reposed in July. During
that time I celebrated Sarum on Feasts and some Sundays, but "Mt.Royal" when
Father was able to serve. When he got too sick to chant Liturgy, he had his
"people" (a small group of non-monastic Orthodox Christians) start attending
here. Sarum was very confusing since they had been bred on "Mt. Royal". The
solution, at least in the short term was to continue the Mt Royal Liturgy
(appropriate as I am now Abbot of Mt. Royal), but try to bring it more "in line"
with other traditional Western Uses (Sarum). Fr. AUgustine always used Sarum
propers in his rite but felt that full-blown Sarum was too distracting for one
priest in a hermit chapel. I might also add, that I also, on occasion serve the
Eastern Rite as well.
Abbot David Cuthbert Pierce
http://tinyurl.com/3c8pmnw

I see.

I wonder what kind of Liturgies are in use among the more recent ex-Milan/Autonomous Metropolia priests...

Let me put the question to Father Anthony Bondi since they are now (most of them) members of his Fraternity of Saint Gregory.

Here is the answer.  Fr Anthony is the Pastoral Vicar for Western Rite in ROCA and Head of the Fraternity of Saint Gregory

As most never used the Sarum even when they were with Abp John, most now are using the Gregorian Liturgy
 

Abbot David: Sarum

Fathers:

Aidan: John Chrysostom

Julio: John Chrysostom

Anthony: Fraternity Gregorian Liturgy

Wolfgang: Fraternity Gregorian Liturgy

Robert: Fraternity Gregorian Liturgy

George: Fraternity Gregorian Liturgy

Michael Dunstan: St Tikhon


« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 08:55:54 AM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #179 on: August 23, 2011, 10:01:29 AM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

ROCA aside, why is the Sacred Heart rejected by the majority of your Antiochian priests?    Are they simply ignorant men who have no idea of its patristic base?

Is it rejected? I'd like to see something in writing, if you have it. I've corresponded with many Antiochian priests, and read most of the literature that has been made available (and some that hasn't) in regards to devotional/liturgical practices and I can't say that I've encountered any "rejections" as much as just...indifference.

Believe it or not, I fall into the latter category. I don't much care for the feast or the devotion, I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context. I'll defend it if for the simple fact that no one else around here will and lurking readers might find it beneficial to be exposed to the historical precedent for the devotion aside from "psychosexual" visions.

The attack on western women saints and mystics as psycho-sexual hysterics is a topic that I was introduced to by Women's Studies courses back when I was an arm-chair marxist, and the analysis was designed to destroy all that is good and holy about female monastic life in the west.   It is a post-modern idea and it is a sin and a shame that it is promoted on this Forum. 

However I am a regular reader of another group that is promoting the acceptance of active homosexuals and same sex marriage in Orthodoxy, so I don't worry too much that y'all will come out unscathed.

Soon those who advocate for a strict heterosexual definition of marriage will be labeled the mentally ill, and you will have to fight to prove you are not.  Good luck with that.

 :)