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Author Topic: The Sacred Heart  (Read 22181 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2011, 10:23:50 PM »

I highly doubt that Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky is the best source to cite when trying to refute a heresy from an EO perspective.  After all, was he not accused of a stavroclastic heresy  concerning the Crucifixion of Christ (One of which, to my knowledge he never bothered to renounce and even went so far as to publish a catechism for emigre Russians espousing this view).  I have nothing personally against Metropolitan Anthony, he was I'm sure a good man, but the issue of his teaching on atonement is still controversial, at best within Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2011, 10:25:12 PM »

I should clarify that no Orthodox are worshipping a body part in this devotion Smiley

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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2011, 10:25:56 PM »

In addition to the words of Metr. Anthony Khrapovitsky another article expaling why the Orthodox DO NOT accept the RC Sacred Heart can be found online here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html

The author cites St. Athanasius:
St. Athanasius of Alexandria pointed out the wrongness of worshipping Christ's body in a separate way, in these words: "We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God." (Ep. ad Adelph., par.

His concluding remarks are:
"Many in America are converts to the Orthodox Faith and may keep Sacred Heart images in their homes, as literal baggage from their pre-Orthodox days. Also, well-meaning friends may give Sacred Heart prayers or images as gifts. The faithful should replace all such images with genuine Orthodox icons. They should not place Sacred Heart images, or any other non-Orthodox images, in their icon corners."
So Orthodox don't agree among themselves on this. We have seen  WRO who have the Sacred Heart image on their Churches. How can you be ONE Church if you have two different teachings on the Sacred Heart?
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2011, 10:26:45 PM »

It's just that for most people, that's still an image of Christ so they do not see what the big deal is.
What about this image of Christ? http://walhydra.blogspot.com/2008/06/lord-of-dance.html (warning: partial nudity)

Or this one? http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Sophia.htm

This is the work of Robert Lentz, a gay Catholic Franciscan.  No Orthodox priest would bless any of his icons and they are excluded from sale in Orthodox stores.

His Franciscan Order asked him to stop selling the more offensive ones years ago and I think he has complied.
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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2011, 10:28:46 PM »

I highly doubt that Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky is the best source to cite when trying to refute a heresy from an EO perspective.  After all, was he not accused of a stavroclastic heresy  concerning the Crucifixion of Christ (One of which, to my knowledge he never bothered to renounce and even went so far as to publish a catechism for emigre Russians espousing this view).  I have nothing personally against Metropolitan Anthony, he was I'm sure a good man, but the issue of his teaching on atonement is still controversial, at best within Orthodoxy.
I'm not citing Met. Anthony, I'm not citing that account of the correspondence.
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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2011, 10:29:52 PM »

The pre-eternal, eschatological, mystical Church is one by its very nature, and cannot be undone. Schism aside, issues of communion or 100% identical teaching between different bishoprics do not have the power to affect the ontological nature of the One Holy Catholic Church.

So, technically, you are correct; the Orthodox Church is more properly understood as the Orthodox Communion of Catholic Churches, rather than some monolithic entity.

There are many other things the Orthodox Catholic Churches don't agree upon, but that is irrelevant.

In addition to the words of Metr. Anthony Khrapovitsky another article expaling why the Orthodox DO NOT accept the RC Sacred Heart can be found online here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html

The author cites St. Athanasius:
St. Athanasius of Alexandria pointed out the wrongness of worshipping Christ's body in a separate way, in these words: "We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God." (Ep. ad Adelph., par.

His concluding remarks are:
"Many in America are converts to the Orthodox Faith and may keep Sacred Heart images in their homes, as literal baggage from their pre-Orthodox days. Also, well-meaning friends may give Sacred Heart prayers or images as gifts. The faithful should replace all such images with genuine Orthodox icons. They should not place Sacred Heart images, or any other non-Orthodox images, in their icon corners."
So Orthodox don't agree among themselves on this. We have seen  WRO who have the Sacred Heart image on their Churches. How can you be ONE Church if you have two different teachings on the Sacred Heart?
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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2011, 10:31:38 PM »

It's just that for most people, that's still an image of Christ so they do not see what the big deal is.
What about this image of Christ? http://walhydra.blogspot.com/2008/06/lord-of-dance.html (warning: partial nudity)

Or this one? http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Sophia.htm

This is the work of Robert Lentz, a gay Catholic Franciscan.  No Orthodox priest would bless any of his icons and they are excluded from sale in Orthodox stores.

His Franciscan Order asked him to stop selling the more offensive ones years ago and I think he has complied.
I know. I'm just saying that if someone doesn't care about whether a Sacred Heart image is Orthodox or not just because it happens to depict Jesus, then they can't object to even more serious errors of depiction.
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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2011, 10:33:55 PM »

I should clarify that no Orthodox are worshipping a body part in this devotion Smiley

I dunno. Sheptitsky had a lot of Orthodox admirers then and now...
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« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2011, 10:42:50 PM »

I should clarify that no Orthodox are worshipping a body part in this devotion Smiley

I dunno. Sheptitsky had a lot of Orthodox admirers then and now...

Haha, okay, further clarification: it is not necessary to think of the physical organ as being of importance any more than the early Fathers did. It is not the worship of a body part. Such a thing may be common in the RCC, but it is not an inherent part of the feast or devotion.
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« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2011, 10:59:31 PM »

Fair enough. I hope all WROs share your attitude.
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« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2011, 01:35:30 AM »

In addition to the words of Metr. Anthony Khrapovitsky another article expaling why the Orthodox DO NOT accept the RC Sacred Heart can be found online here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html

The author cites St. Athanasius:
St. Athanasius of Alexandria pointed out the wrongness of worshipping Christ's body in a separate way, in these words: "We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God." (Ep. ad Adelph., par.

His concluding remarks are:
"Many in America are converts to the Orthodox Faith and may keep Sacred Heart images in their homes, as literal baggage from their pre-Orthodox days. Also, well-meaning friends may give Sacred Heart prayers or images as gifts. The faithful should replace all such images with genuine Orthodox icons. They should not place Sacred Heart images, or any other non-Orthodox images, in their icon corners."
So Orthodox don't agree among themselves on this. We have seen  WRO who have the Sacred Heart image on their Churches. How can you be ONE Church if you have two different teachings on the Sacred Heart?

Well, the Church does not have any official teaching on the Sacred Heart. There are only opinions.
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« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2011, 01:38:40 AM »

This was taken from the popular St. Ambrose Western Orthodox prayer book. The introduction to this devotion says, "The Western Orthodox use of this devotion is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, "My heart within me is troubled," by to Our Lord's compassionate love for us. The heart has long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God's love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts."

I like this interpretation. Makes sense.
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« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2011, 06:00:47 AM »

In addition to the words of Metr. Anthony Khrapovitsky another article expaling why the Orthodox DO NOT accept the RC Sacred Heart can be found online here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html

The author cites St. Athanasius:
St. Athanasius of Alexandria pointed out the wrongness of worshipping Christ's body in a separate way, in these words: "We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God." (Ep. ad Adelph., par.

His concluding remarks are:
"Many in America are converts to the Orthodox Faith and may keep Sacred Heart images in their homes, as literal baggage from their pre-Orthodox days. Also, well-meaning friends may give Sacred Heart prayers or images as gifts. The faithful should replace all such images with genuine Orthodox icons. They should not place Sacred Heart images, or any other non-Orthodox images, in their icon corners."
So Orthodox don't agree among themselves on this. We have seen  WRO who have the Sacred Heart image on their Churches. How can you be ONE Church if you have two different teachings on the Sacred Heart?

Well, the Church does not have any official teaching on the Sacred Heart. There are only opinions.

The most attractive thing about the devotion to the Sacred Heart is certainly the last of the twelve promises of the Sacred Heart.

"The all-powerful love of My Heart will grant to all those who shall receive Communion on the First Friday of nine consecutive months the grace of final repentance; they shall not die under My displeasure, nor without receiving the Sacraments; My Heart shall be their assured refuge at the last hour."

For Orthodox in the West where Friday Liturgy is not common, it may be best to remain in the Roman Catholic Church until they have completed these nine consecutive Fridays of Communion.  laugh
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« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2011, 06:12:05 AM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.
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« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2011, 07:24:13 AM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.

Does this logic apply to many other traditions that we have acquired from heterodox sources?
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« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2011, 07:28:40 AM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.

Does this logic apply to many other traditions that we have acquired from heterodox sources?

Cudgelling my brains but not sure what you have in mind?   The adoption of the Buddhist mala as a prayer rope?  The Julian calendar?
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« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2011, 07:36:35 AM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.

Does this logic apply to many other traditions that we have acquired from heterodox sources?

Cudgelling my brains but not sure what you have in mind?   The adoption of the Buddhist mala as a prayer rope?

 Grin

Not anything that dramatic. I was think something like realistic icons or family patrons. I've understood that latter was modeled after a Serbian Pagan tradition.

Just playing a devil's advocate. I don't feel comfortable with devotion to Sacred Heart either but I think our argumentation should be consistent.
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« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2011, 08:35:43 AM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.

God did indeed give this to His Church. The fact is that there is a long patristic tradition in the West of devotion to the heart of Christ that was pierced on the cross, which gradually grew into the Heart being a symbolic representation of the entire mystery of the Passion. Perhaps Mary Margaret's "visions" were the occasion that made it more popular, but that was neither the genesis of this tradition nor its rightful expression.

As for elements that have been absorbed into Orthodox tradition, a few stunning examples if a similar nature would be St. Nicodemus of Mount Athos' translation and dispersion of late Roman Catholic works such as Lorenzo Scupoli's "Unseen Warfare" or Ignatius of Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises." Why would he do such a thing if the monks of the Holy Mount, that beacon of Orthodox spirituality for centuries, didn't have a use for it?

I do not buy this narrative that just because something didn't arise within Eastern Christianity by whatever arbitrary date we conjure up, it is not from God. That's pure myth, pure romanticism.
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« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2011, 09:02:48 AM »

As for elements that have been absorbed into Orthodox tradition, a few stunning examples if a similar nature would be St. Nicodemus of Mount Athos' translation and dispersion of late Roman Catholic works such as Lorenzo Scupoli's "Unseen Warfare" or Ignatius of Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises."

I had no idea that Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises" had entered Orthodoxy.  Do you know who did this and is there a name for the book in the Church?

Quote
I do not buy this narrative that just because something didn't arise within Eastern Christianity by whatever arbitrary date we conjure up, it is not from God. That's pure myth, pure romanticism.

I see it as sound common sense to protect our piety and way of life from from heterodox influences.
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« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2011, 09:13:53 AM »

In addition to the words of Metr. Anthony Khrapovitsky another article expaling why the Orthodox DO NOT accept the RC Sacred Heart can be found online here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html

The author cites St. Athanasius:
St. Athanasius of Alexandria pointed out the wrongness of worshipping Christ's body in a separate way, in these words: "We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God." (Ep. ad Adelph., par.

His concluding remarks are:
"Many in America are converts to the Orthodox Faith and may keep Sacred Heart images in their homes, as literal baggage from their pre-Orthodox days. Also, well-meaning friends may give Sacred Heart prayers or images as gifts. The faithful should replace all such images with genuine Orthodox icons. They should not place Sacred Heart images, or any other non-Orthodox images, in their icon corners."
So Orthodox don't agree among themselves on this. We have seen  WRO who have the Sacred Heart image on their Churches. How can you be ONE Church if you have two different teachings on the Sacred Heart?

This images has come into a few of the Western Rite churches of the Antiochian Church in the States.  It is firmly excluded from the Russian WR parishes.

In the Antiochian parishes it came in less than 10 years ago.  The Western Rite is still a great novelty in Orthodox life.  It may or may not survive the test of time.  But it is so young and untested that we have to expect aberrations such as one or two priests of Roman Catholic origin (Fr Miguel Lobos in the case of these pictures) bringing in a few unexpected things.  Hopefully the bishops will get around to addressing it and making decisions.

There is strong opposition to the introduction of Western Rite from many bishops and priests.  The introduction of such things as the Sacred Heart holy picture works in their favour as an argument that WR is contaminating Orthodoxy and should be stopped.
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« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2011, 09:37:21 AM »

This images has come into a few of the Western Rite churches of the Antiochian Church in the States.  It is firmly excluded from the Russian WR parishes.

In the Antiochian parishes it came in less than 10 years ago.  The Western Rite is still a great novelty in Orthodox life.  It may or may not survive the test of time.  But it is so young and untested that we have to expect aberrations such as one or two priests of Roman Catholic origin (Fr Miguel Lobos in the case of these pictures) bringing in a few unexpected things.

I once saw a keychain with an image of the Sacred Heart on it for sale at a festival held by an ethnic parish. They have no images of it up for veneration anywhere, but it was still there on a keychain.

One question relating to the discussion - If Orthodoxy can import and baptize traditions of pagan religions to make Christian alternatives out of them, why is it so impossible to do so with certain traditions that come from a historically Christian (not Orthodox but still Christian and much closer than to us than paganism) background?
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« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2011, 10:20:56 AM »

[quote author=Melodist link=topic=38979.msg626270#msg626270 One question relating to the discussion - If Orthodoxy can import and baptize traditions of pagan religions to make Christian alternatives out of them, why is it so impossible to do so with certain traditions that come from a historically Christian (not Orthodox but still Christian and much closer than to us than paganism) background?
[/quote]

I'd advis eyou to go through this thread again and read the theological reasons why the Orthodox DO NOT accept veneration/ devotions to the religious picture of the Sacred Heart.
The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.  We are not talking about pagan cultural customs but about significant theological differences. 
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« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2011, 10:39:32 AM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
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« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2011, 11:28:25 AM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.

 Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2011, 11:34:32 AM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Rhythmical Prayer to the Sacred Members
of Jesus Hanging on the Cross

        Ascribed to St. Bernard
        PART I
        TO THE FEET

        I  O Saviour of the world, I cry to Thee; O Saviour, suffering God, I worship Thee; O wounded beauteous Love, I kneel to Thee; Thou knowest, Lord, how I would follow Thee, If of Thyself Thou give Thyself to Me.

        II Thy Presence I Believe; O come to me! Behold me prostrate, Jesus; look on me! How beautiful Thou art! O turn to me! O in Thy tender mercy turn to me, And let Thy untold pity pardon me!

        III  With trembling love and feat I worship Thee; I kiss the grievous nails which entered Thee, And think on those dire wounds which tortured Thee, And, grieving, lift my weeping eyes to Thee, Transfixed and dying all for love of me!

        IV  O wondrous grace! O gracious charity! O love of sinners in such agony! Sweet Father of the poor! O who can be Unmoved to witness this great mystery,-- The Healer smitten, hanging on a tree?

        IV  O wondrous grace! O gracious charity! O love of sinners in such agony! Sweet Father of the poor! O who can be Unmoved to witness this great mystery,-- The Healer smitten, hanging on a tree?

        V  O gentle Jesus, turn Thee unto me; What i have broken do Thou bind in me, And what is crooked make Thou straight in me; What I have lost restore Thou unto me, And what is weak and sickly heal in me.

        VI  O Love! with all my strength I seek for Thee; Upon and in thy Cross I look for Thee; With sorrow and with hope I turn to Thee,-- That through Thy Blood new health may come to me, That washed therein Thy love may pardon me.

        VII   O take my heart, Thou Loved One; let it be Transfixed with those dear wounds for love of Thee, O wound it, Jesus, with pure love of Thee; And let it so be crucified with Thee, that it may be forever joined to Thee.

        VIII  Sweet Jesus, loving God, I cry to Thee; Thou guilty, yet I come for love of Thee; O show Thyself, dear Saviour, kind to me! Unworthy as I am, O turn to me, Nor at thy sacred Feet abandon me!

        IX   Dear Jesus, bathed in tears, I kneel to Thee; In shame and grief I lift my eyes to Thee; Prostrate before Thy Cross I bow to Thee, And thy dear Feet embrace; O look on me, Yea, from Thy Cross, O look, and pardon me.

        X  O my Beloved, stretched against that Thee, Whose arms divine are now enfolding me, whose gracious Heart is now upholding me,-- O my Beloved, let me wholly be Transformed, forgiven, one alone with Thee!

        PART II
        TO THE KNEES

        I   O Jesus, King of Saints, I worship Thee; O hope of sinners, hail! I rest on Thee; True God, true man, Thou hangest on the Tree Transfixed, with quivering flesh and shaking knees, A criminal esteemed,--I worship Thee.

        II  Alas, how poor, how naked, wilt Thou be! How hast Thou stript Thyself for love of me, How made Thyself a gazing-stock to be! Not forced, but, O my God! How willingly In all Thy limbs Thou sufferest on that Tree!

        III   Thy Precious Blood wells forth abundantly From all Thy open wounds incessantly; All bathed therein, O God, in agony Thou standest on the Cross of infamy, Awaiting the appointed hour to die.

        IV  O infinite, O wondrous majesty! O terrible, unheard-of poverty! Ah, who, returning so great charity, I willing, Jesus, thus to give for Thee His blood for Thine, in faithful love for Thee?

        V  O Jesus, how shall I, then, answer Thee, Who am so vile, and have not followed Thee? Or how repay the love that loveth me With such sublime, such awful charity Transfixed, from double death to set me free?

        VI  O Jesus, what Thy love hath been for me! O Jesus, death could never conquer Thee! Ah, with what loving care Thou keepest me Enfolded in Thine arms, lest I should be, By death of sin, a moment torn from Thee!

        VII  Behold, O Jesus, how for love of Thee, With all my soul I trembling cling to Thee, And Thy dear Knees embrace. O pity me! Thou knowest why--in pity bear with me, And overlook the shame that covers me!

        VIII  O let the Blood I worship flow on me, That what I do may never anger Thee; The Blood which flows at every pore from Thee Each imperfection may it wash from me, That I may undefiled and perfect be.

        IX   O force me, best Beloved, to draw to Thee, Transfixed and bleeding on the shameful Tree, Despised and stretched in dying agony! All my desire, O Lord, is fixed on Thee; O call me, then, and I will follow Thee.

        X   I have no other love, dear Lord, but Thee; Thou art my first and last; I cling to Thee. It is no labor, Lord; love sets me free; Then heal me, cleanse me, let me rest on Thee, For love is life, and life is love--in Thee.

        PART III
        TO THE HANDS

        I   Hail, holy Shepherd! Lord, I worship Thee, Fatigued with combat, steeped in misery; Whose sacred Hands, outstretched in agony, All pierced and dislocated on the Tree, Are fastened to the wood of infamy.

        II   Dear holy Hands, I humbly worship ye, With roses filled, fresh blossoms of that Tree; The cruel iron enters into ye, While open gashes yield unceasingly The Precious stream down-dropping from the Tree.

        III   Behold, Thy Blood, O Jesus, flows on me-- The price of my salvation falls on me; O ruddy as the rose, it drops on me. Sweet Precious Blood, it wells abundantly From both Thy sacred Hands to set me free.

        IV   My heart leaps up, O Jesus, unto Thee; Drawn by those nail-pierced Hands it flies to Thee; Drawn by those Blood-stained Hands stretched out for me, My soul breaks out with sighing unto Thee, And longs to slake its thirst, O Love, in Thee.

        V   My God, what great stupendous charity-- Both good and bad are welcomed here by Thee! The slothful heart Thou drawest graciously, The loving one Thou callest tenderly, And unto all a pardon grantest free.

        VI   Behold, I now present myself to Thee, Who dost present thy bleeding Hands to me; The sick Thou healest when they come to Thee; Thou canst not, therefore, turn away from me, Whose love Thou knowest, Lord, is all for Thee.

        VII   O my Beloved, fastened to the Tree, Draw, by Thy love, my senses unto Thee; My will, my intellect, my memory, And all I am, make subject unto Thee, In whose dear arms alone is liberty.

        VIII   O draw me for Thy Cross' sake to Thee; O draw me for Thy so wide charity; Sweet Jesus, draw my heart in truth to Thee, O put an end to all my misery, And crown me with Thy Cross and victory!

        IX   O Jesus, place Thy sacred Hands on me, With transport let me kiss them tenderly, With groans and tears embrace them fervently; And, O for these deep wounds I worship Thee; And for hte blessed drops that fall on me!

        X   O dearest Jesus, I commend to Thee Myself, and all I am, most perfectly; Bathed in Thy Blood, behold, I live for Thee; O, may Thy blessed Hands encompass me, And in extremity deliver me!

        PART IV
        TO THE SIDE

        I   O Jesus, highest Good, I yearn for Thee; O Jesus, merciful, I hope in Thee, Whose sacred Body hands upon the Tree, Whose limbs, all dislocated painfully, Are stretched in torture, all for love of me!

        II   Hail, sacred Side of Jesus! Verily The hidden spring of mercy lies in Thee, The source of honeyed sweetness dwells in Thee, The fountain of redemption flows from Thee, The secret well of love that cleanses me.

        III   Behold, O King of Love, I draw to Thee; If I am wrong, O Jesus, pardon me; Thy love, Beloved, calls me lovingly, As I with blushing cheek gaze willingly Upon the living wound that bleeds for me.

        IV   O gentle opening, I worship Thee; O open door and deep, I look in Thee; O most pure stream, I gaze and gaze on Thee: More ruddy than the rose, I draw to Thee; More healing than all health, I fly to Thee.

        V   More sweet than wine Thine odor is for me; The poisoned breath of sin it drives from me; Thou art the draught of life poured out for me. O ye who thirst, come, drink thereof with me; And Thou, sweet wound, O open unto me.

        VI   O red wound open, let me draw to Thee, And let my throbbing heart be filled from Thee! Ah, see! My heart, Beloved, faints for Thee. O my Beloved, open unto me, That I may pass and lose myself in Thee.

        VII   Lord, with my mouth I touch and worship Thee, With all the strength I have I cling to Thee, With all my love I plunge my heart in Thee, My very life-blood would I drawn from Thee,-- O Jesus, Jesus! Draw me into Thee!

        VIII   How Sweet Thy savor is! Who tastes of Thee, O Jesus Christ, can relish naught but Thee; Who tastes Thy living sweetness lives by Thee; All else is void--the soul must die for Thee; So faints my heart,--so would I die for thee.

        IX   I languish, Lord! O let me hide in Thee! In Thy sweet Side, my Love, O bury me! And may the fire divine consuming Thee Burn in my heart where it lies hid in Thee, Without a fear reposing peacefully!

        X   When in the hour of death Thou callest me, O Love of loves, may my soul enter Thee; May my last breath, O Jesus fly to Thee; So no fierce beast may drive my heart from Thee, But in Thy Side may it remain with Thee!

        PART V
        TO THE BREAST

        I   O God of my salvation, hail to Thee! O Jesus, sweetest Love, all hail to Thee! O venerable Breast, I worship Thee; O dwelling-place of love, I fly to Thee, With trembling touch adore and worship Thee.

        II   Hail, throne of the Most Holy Trinity! Hail, ark immense of tender charity! Thou stay of weakness and infirmity, Sweet rest of weary souls who rest on Thee, Dear couch of loving ones who lean on Thee!

        III   With reverence, O Love, I kneel to Thee, O worthy to be ever sought by me; Behold me, Jesus, looking unto Thee. O, set my heart on fire, dear Love, from Thee, And burn it in the flame that burns in Thee.

        IV   O make my breast a precious home for thee, A furnace of sweet love and purity, A well of holy grief and piety; Deny my will, conform it unto Thee, That grace abundant may be mine in Thee.

        V   Sweet Jesus, loving Shepherd, come to me; Dear Son of God and Mary, come to me; Kind Father come, let Thy Heart pity me, And cleanse the fountain of my misery In that great fountain of Thy clemency.

        VI   Hail, fruitful splendor of the Deity! Hail, fruitful figure of Divinity! From the full treasure of Thy charity, O pour some gift in Thy benignity Upon the desolate who cry to Thee!

        VII   Dear Breast of most sweet Jesus, mine would be All Thine in its entire conformity; Absolve it from all sin, and set it free, That it may burn with ardent charity, And never, never cease to think on Thee.

        VIII   Abyss of wisdom from eternity, The harmonies of angels worship Thee; Entrancing sweetness flows, O Breast, from thee; John tasted it as he lay rapt on Thee; O grant me thus that I may dwell in Thee!

        IX   Hail, fountain deep of God's benignity! The fullness of the immense Divinity Hath found at last a creature home in Thee. Ah, may the counsel that I learn from Thee All imperfection purify in me!

        X   True temple of the Godhead, hail to Thee! O draw me in Thy gracious charity, Thou ark of goodness, full of grace for me. Great God of all, have mercy upon me, And on Thy right hand keep a place for me.

        PART VI
        TO THE FACE

        I   Hail, bleeding Head of Jesus, hail to Thee! Thou thorn-crowned Head, I humbly worship Thee! O wounded Head, I lift my hands to Thee; O lovely Face besmeared, I gaze on Thee; O bruised and livid Face, look down on me!

        II   Hail, beauteous Face of Jesus, bent on me, Whom angel choirs adore exultantly! Hail, sweetest Face of Jesus, bruised for me-- Hail, Holy One, whose glorious Face for me Is shorn of beauty on that fatal Tree!

        III   All strength, all freshness, is gone forth from Thee: What wonder! Hath not God afflicted Thee, And is not death himself approaching Thee? O Love! But death hath laid his touch on Thee, And faint and broken features turn to me.

        IV   O have they thus maltreated Thee, my own? O have they Thy sweet Face despised, my own? And all for my unworthy sake, my own! O in Thy beauty turn to me, my own; O turn one look of love on me, my own!

        V   In this Thy Passion, Lord, remember me; In this Thy pain, O Love, acknowledge me; The honey of whose lips was shed on me, The milk of whose delights hath strengthened me Whose sweetness is beyond delight for me!

        VI   Despise me not, O Love; I long for Thee; Contemn me not, unworthy though I be; But now that death is fast approaching Thee, Incline Thy Head, my Love, my Love, to me, To these poor arms, and let it rest on me!

        VII   The holy Passion I would share with Thee, And in Thy dying love rejoice with Thee; Content if by this Cross I die with Thee; Content, Thou knowest, Lord, how willingly Where I have lived to die for love of Thee.

        VIII   For this Thy bitter death all thanks to Thee, Dear Jesus, and Thy wondrous love for me! O gracious God, so merciful to me, Do as Thy guilty one entreateth Thee, And at the end let me be found with Thee!

        IX   When from this life, O Love, Thou callest me, Then, Jesus, be not wanting unto me, But in the dreadful hour of agony, O hasten, Lord, and be Thou nigh to me, Defend, protect, and O deliver me.

        X   When Thou, O God, shalt bid my soul be free, Then, dearest Jesus, show Thyself to me! O condescend to show Thyself to me,-- Upon Thy saving Cross, dear Lord, to me,-- And let me die, my Lord, embracing Thee!

        PART VII
        TO THE SACRED HEART

        I   Hail, sacred Heart of God's great Majesty! Hail, sweetest Heart, my heart saluteth Thee! With great desire, O Heart, I seek for Thee, And faint for joy, O Heart, embracing Thee; Then give me leave, O Love, to speak to Thee.

        II   With what sweet love Thou languishedst for me! What pain and torment was that love to Thee! How didst Thou all Thyself exhaust for me! How hast Thou wholly given Thyself to me, That death no longer might have hold of me!

        III   O bitter death and cruel! Can it be Thou darest so to enter greedily Into that cell divine? O can it be The Life of life, that lives there gloriously, Should feel thy bite, O death, and yield to thee?

        IV   For Thy death's sake which Thou didst bear for me, When Thou, O sweetest Heart, didst faint for me, O Heart most precious in its agony, See how I yearn, and longing turn to Thee! Yield to my love, and draw me unto Thee!

        V   O sacred Heart, beloved most tenderly, Cleanse Thou my own; more worthy let it be, All hardened as it is with vanity; O make it tender, loving, fearing Thee, And all its icy coldness drive from me.

        VI   O sinner as I am, I come to Thee; My very vitals throb and call for Thee; O Love, sweet love, draw hither unto me! O Heart of Love, my heart would ravished be, And sicken with the wound of love for Thee!

        VII   ilate and open, Heart of love, for me, And like a rose of wondrous fragrance be, Sweet Heart of love, united unto me; Anoint and pierce my heart, O Love, with Thee, How can he suffer, Lord, who loveth Thee?

        VIII   O Heart of Love, who vanquished is by Thee Knows nothing, but beside himself must be; No bounds are set to that sweet liberty, No moderation,--he must fly to Thee, Or die he must of many deaths for Thee.

        IX   My living heart, O Love, cries out for Thee; With all its strength, O Love, my soul loves Thee; O Heart of Love, incline Thou unto me, That I with burning love may turn to Thee, And with devoted breast recline on Thee!

        X   In that sweet furnace let me live for Thee, Nor let the sleep of sloth encumber me; O let me sing to Thee and weep to Thee, Adore, and magnify, and honor Thee, And always take my full delight in Thee.

        XI   Thou Rose of wondrous fragrance, open wide, And bring my heart into Thy wounded Side, O sweet heart, open! Draw Thy loving bride, All panting with desires intensified, And satisfy her love unsatisfied.

        XII   Unite my heart, O Jesus, unto Thine, And let Thy wounded love be found in mine. Ah, if my heart, dear love, be made like Thine O will it not be pierced with darts divine, the sweet reproach of love that thrills through Thine?

        XIII   O Jesus, draw my heart within Thy Breast, That it may be by Thee alone possessed. O Love, in that sweet pain it would find rest, In that entrancing sorrow would be blest, And love itself in joy upon Thy Breast.

        XIV   Behold, O Jesus, how it draws to Thee! O call it, that it may remain in Thee! See with what large desire it thirsts for Thee! Reprove it not, O Love; it loves but Thee: Then bid it live--by one sweet taste of Thee!


        ____________

        Reproduced from "Rhythmical Prayer to the Sacred Members of Jesus Hanging Upon the Cross," ascribed to St. Bernard, translated by Emily Mary Shapcote, found in "The Life of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" by St. Bonaventure, P.J. Kenedy and Sons (New York: 1881).
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« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2011, 12:29:44 PM »

It's just that for most people, that's still an image of Christ so they do not see what the big deal is.
What about this image of Christ? http://walhydra.blogspot.com/2008/06/lord-of-dance.html (warning: partial nudity)

Or this one? http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Sophia.htm

This is the work of Robert Lentz, a gay Catholic Franciscan.  No Orthodox priest would bless any of his icons and they are excluded from sale in Orthodox stores.

His Franciscan Order asked him to stop selling the more offensive ones years ago and I think he has complied.

is he still a Franciscan?
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« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2011, 12:31:35 PM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
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« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2011, 02:28:32 PM »

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Given that Bernard (who I would agree was the source of quite a lot of what is questionable or downright spiritually dangerous in the Latin tradition) was post-schism, I would not only hope but expect that he would be excluded from any Orthodox calendar, whatever the rite.
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« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2011, 02:36:17 PM »

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Given that Bernard (who I would agree was the source of quite a lot of what is questionable or downright spiritually dangerous in the Latin tradition) was post-schism, I would not only hope but expect that he would be excluded from any Orthodox calendar, whatever the rite.


Well you'll have to keep a real weather eye out because there are EO's who foolishly seem to revere him as well.

May I suggest a negative add campaign to speed the expulsion process along!!

At least St. Bernard puts paid to the silly idea that Sr. Margaret-Mary is responsible for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the west.
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« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2011, 03:05:25 PM »

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints . . .

I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you saying that he actually is on some ROCOR-WR calendar?
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« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2011, 03:33:11 PM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.

Indeed. One might as well use "Christotokos" with an Orthodox explanation.
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« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2011, 03:35:39 PM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.

God did indeed give this to His Church. The fact is that there is a long patristic tradition in the West of devotion to the heart of Christ that was pierced on the cross, which gradually grew into the Heart being a symbolic representation of the entire mystery of the Passion. Perhaps Mary Margaret's "visions" were the occasion that made it more popular, but that was neither the genesis of this tradition nor its rightful expression.

As for elements that have been absorbed into Orthodox tradition, a few stunning examples if a similar nature would be St. Nicodemus of Mount Athos' translation and dispersion of late Roman Catholic works such as Lorenzo Scupoli's "Unseen Warfare" or Ignatius of Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises." Why would he do such a thing if the monks of the Holy Mount, that beacon of Orthodox spirituality for centuries, didn't have a use for it?

I do not buy this narrative that just because something didn't arise within Eastern Christianity by whatever arbitrary date we conjure up, it is not from God. That's pure myth, pure romanticism.

Why must they look at the most minute of possible traditions to justify keeping something that grew to what it is after the schism? Why strain out the gnat so you can swallow the camel?
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« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2011, 03:57:30 PM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
But you do venerate parts of the bodies of His Saints. If these can work as metonymies of the whole human vessel of God's glory and ultimately pass on the honor to God Himself, how is that any different from the Sacred Heart?
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« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2011, 04:57:19 PM »

Nit-picking. I would have no problem kissing such an image.
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« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2011, 05:02:14 PM »

You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.

God did indeed give this to His Church. The fact is that there is a long patristic tradition in the West of devotion to the heart of Christ that was pierced on the cross, which gradually grew into the Heart being a symbolic representation of the entire mystery of the Passion. Perhaps Mary Margaret's "visions" were the occasion that made it more popular, but that was neither the genesis of this tradition nor its rightful expression.

As for elements that have been absorbed into Orthodox tradition, a few stunning examples if a similar nature would be St. Nicodemus of Mount Athos' translation and dispersion of late Roman Catholic works such as Lorenzo Scupoli's "Unseen Warfare" or Ignatius of Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises." Why would he do such a thing if the monks of the Holy Mount, that beacon of Orthodox spirituality for centuries, didn't have a use for it?

I do not buy this narrative that just because something didn't arise within Eastern Christianity by whatever arbitrary date we conjure up, it is not from God. That's pure myth, pure romanticism.

Why must they look at the most minute of possible traditions to justify keeping something that grew to what it is after the schism? Why strain out the gnat so you can swallow the camel?
beyond that, why is it that these cults of body parts and "visionaries" come about, with increasing importance, after the patriarchate of the West fell out of Orthodox communion?  You don't see them in the Church in the West of the first millenium, why embrace those of the second millenium?
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« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2011, 05:10:46 PM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
But you do venerate parts of the bodies of His Saints. If these can work as metonymies of the whole human vessel of God's glory and ultimately pass on the honor to God Himself, how is that any different from the Sacred Heart?
They are not metonymies.

Take for instance the incorrupt relics of St. John Maximovich.  His whole body is there.  I just venerated the hand, there is no reason to kiss every square inch of him, as his hand is conected to the rest of him.  I once venerated the arm of St. George, which is still conected with the rest of him, in particular his soul/spirit in heaven.  The icon of him with the relic showed all of him, not just his arm.

If Christ wanted this, he would have gone to Mexico like the Mormons say and be sacrificed with His heart cut out rather than being crucified.
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« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2011, 05:16:27 PM »

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Given that Bernard (who I would agree was the source of quite a lot of what is questionable or downright spiritually dangerous in the Latin tradition) was post-schism, I would not only hope but expect that he would be excluded from any Orthodox calendar, whatever the rite.


Well you'll have to keep a real weather eye out because there are EO's who foolishly seem to revere him as well.

May I suggest a negative add campaign to speed the expulsion process along!!

At least St. Bernard puts paid to the silly idea that Sr. Margaret-Mary is responsible for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the west.

So why is there no devotion to the Sacred Knees?  In Saint Bernard's prayer they seem just as adorable as the Sacred Heart.
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« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2011, 05:22:34 PM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
But you do venerate parts of the bodies of His Saints. If these can work as metonymies of the whole human vessel of God's glory and ultimately pass on the honor to God Himself, how is that any different from the Sacred Heart?

What I want to know is when the Catholics are going to make serious efforts to retrieve the Sacred Prepuce which was stolen in 1983.

The fact that they are sitting on their hands and doing nothing to locate this sacred relic is a vast insult to the Orthodox who gifted it to the West before the Schism.
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« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2011, 05:33:13 PM »

The quote from St. Athanasius is good because he had to deal with Nestorianism.

It would be even better if we were dealing with the same problem (Nestorianism) that St Athansius is addressing in the quote.
According to Orthodox sources we ARE dealing with the same problem or call it crypto-Nestorianism if you want: we do not venerate PARTS of Our Lord's body.
But you do venerate parts of the bodies of His Saints. If these can work as metonymies of the whole human vessel of God's glory and ultimately pass on the honor to God Himself, how is that any different from the Sacred Heart?

What I want to know is when the Catholics are going to make serious efforts to retrieve the Sacred Prepuce which was stolen in 1983.

The fact that they are sitting on their hands and doing nothing to locate this sacred relic is a vast insult to the Orthodox who gifted it to the West before the Schism.
Quote
Foreskin relics began appearing in Europe during the Middle Ages. The earliest recorded sighting came on December 25, 800, when Charlemagne gave it to Pope Leo III when the latter crowned the former Emperor. Charlemagne claimed that it had been brought to him by an angel while he prayed at the Holy Sepulchre, although a more prosaic report says it was a wedding gift from the Byzantine Empress Irene. The Pope placed it into the Sanctum sanctorum in the Lateran basilica in Rome with other relics. Its authenticity was later considered to be confirmed by a vision of Saint Bridget of Sweden.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce
I'm afraid to ask what she saw in the vision.
Quote
The Holy Prepuce of Calcata is worthy of special mention, as the reliquary containing the Holy Foreskin was paraded through the streets of this Italian village as recently as 1983 on the Feast of the Circumcision, which was formerly marked by the Roman Catholic Church around the world on January 1 each year. The practice ended, however, when thieves stole the jewel-encrusted case, contents and all. Following this theft, it is unclear whether any of the purported Holy Prepuces still exist. In a 1997 television documentary for Channel 4, British journalist Miles Kington travelled to Italy in search of the Holy Foreskin, but was unable to find any remaining example.
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« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2011, 05:40:32 PM »

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Given that Bernard (who I would agree was the source of quite a lot of what is questionable or downright spiritually dangerous in the Latin tradition) was post-schism, I would not only hope but expect that he would be excluded from any Orthodox calendar, whatever the rite.


Well you'll have to keep a real weather eye out because there are EO's who foolishly seem to revere him as well.

May I suggest a negative add campaign to speed the expulsion process along!!

At least St. Bernard puts paid to the silly idea that Sr. Margaret-Mary is responsible for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the west.


At least St. Bernard puts paid to the silly idea that Sr. Margaret-Mary is responsible for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the west.

The heart was always there, along with the knees and the hands and the head but it was Margaret Mary Alacoque who took the Heart and marketed it as an essential picture for every Catholic home.
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« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2011, 05:53:03 PM »

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Given that Bernard (who I would agree was the source of quite a lot of what is questionable or downright spiritually dangerous in the Latin tradition) was post-schism, I would not only hope but expect that he would be excluded from any Orthodox calendar, whatever the rite.


Well you'll have to keep a real weather eye out because there are EO's who foolishly seem to revere him as well.

May I suggest a negative add campaign to speed the expulsion process along!!

At least St. Bernard puts paid to the silly idea that Sr. Margaret-Mary is responsible for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the west.


At least St. Bernard puts paid to the silly idea that Sr. Margaret-Mary is responsible for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the west.

The heart was always there, along with the knees and the hands and the head but it was Margaret Mary Alacoque who took the Heart and marketed it as an essential picture for every Catholic home.
sort of the Clarence Walton Lillehei of Vatican devotions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._Walton_Lillehei
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« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2011, 07:20:05 PM »

For millionth time, though, no Western Orthodox are venerating a body part. Please, read the entire thread.

Do not mistake the visionary reveries of Mary Margaret as being the same thing as the ancient Western patristic tradition of venerating the mystery of the Passion as symbolically represented in the piercing of Our Lord's heart.

Read the Fathers, read the history of this devotion, and observe how it's actually being carried out in an Orthodox context. There are so many genetic fallacies, non sequiturs, and red herrings being thrown about in this thread it's hard to keep track of.

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« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2011, 07:41:57 PM »

It's just that for most people, that's still an image of Christ so they do not see what the big deal is.
What about this image of Christ? http://walhydra.blogspot.com/2008/06/lord-of-dance.html (warning: partial nudity)

Or this one? http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Sophia.htm

This is the work of Robert Lentz, a gay Catholic Franciscan.  No Orthodox priest would bless any of his icons and they are excluded from sale in Orthodox stores.

His Franciscan Order asked him to stop selling the more offensive ones years ago and I think he has complied.

Unfortunately, Father, this is not the case. Robert Lentz's heretical and blasphemous images have continued to be freely available for sale, in disobedience to the directive from Abp Michael Sheehan of Santa Fe to the distributor of these images to withdraw them for sale. The archbishop issued this directive in 2005. The distributor has evidently done nothing to curb their sale.
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« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2011, 07:49:25 PM »

For millionth time, though, no Western Orthodox are venerating a body part. Please, read the entire thread.

Do not mistake the visionary reveries of Mary Margaret as being the same thing as the ancient Western patristic tradition of venerating the mystery of the Passion as symbolically represented in the piercing of Our Lord's heart.

Read the Fathers, read the history of this devotion, and observe how it's actually being carried out in an Orthodox context. There are so many genetic fallacies, non sequiturs, and red herrings being thrown about in this thread it's hard to keep track of.



One thing that is factual is that it is Margaret Mary Alacoque's vision of the Sacred Heart which is being displayed by the Antiochian Orthodox.  With that particular picture there comes a whole package of unorthodox things such as the Twelve Promises.   


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« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2011, 08:17:35 PM »

One thing that is factual? What on earth are you talking about? What does a picture have to do with anything at all? What do Antiochians have to do with it?I'm seriously beginning to think you're just trolling now. Or your brain is turned off. Please stop. The OP asked a genuine question about whether or not Orthodox Christians use a devotion toward the Sacred Heart, which has absolutely nothing to do with Margaret Mary, visions, psychosexual orgasmic what-have-you's or any other irrelevant things you're dragging into this conversation. It's almost as if you're incapable of any thinking beyond gut-level reactions, or with any sort of historical nuance whatsoever. Seriously, stop.
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