Author Topic: The Sacred Heart  (Read 74231 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #315 on: August 26, 2011, 08:14:55 AM »
Oh, I wish you had not said that.  Now I am having bad thoughts about all the holy abbots of Jordanville as well as the holy Metropolitans who have censed it and kissed it, and all the holy Jordanville monks...

Do you feel the same way about the eyes in triangles at Athos and elsewhere?  ;)

It doesn't disturb me at all.  I was quite used to it in Serbia where it is painted high on the West wall (frescoes from the 12th to 20th centuries) so that as you leave the church you notice it and remember that wherever you are you are in the presence of God.   Another fresco seen on the back wall is the Hand of God holding souls - to remind us that we remain in His love and care after we leave the church.

I don't see why eitther the Eye or the Hand are really offensive, provided they are not too "in your face."


Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #316 on: August 26, 2011, 08:53:07 AM »
Pope St. Cyril expounded on the Hospitality at the Oak of Mamre as a Theophany of the Holy Trinity
The theology of St. Cyril of Alexandria: a critical appreciation By Thomas Gerard Weinandy, Daniel A. Keating
http://books.google.com/books?id=YRxJAoKA5MIC&pg=PA95&dq=Cyril+Mamre+Trinity&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Cyril%20Mamre%20Trinity&f=false

The Antiochian School was more Christological, in Alexandria Philo may have laid the groundwork for the Trinitarian in interpretation
The exegetical encounter between Jews and Christians in late antiquity By Emmanouela Grypeou, Helen Spurling
http://books.google.com/books?id=eRX2ft6Q2D4C&pg=PA196&dq=Cyril+Mamre+Trinity&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Cyril%20Mamre%20Trinity&f=false

Pseudo-Gregory of Nyssa: testimonies against the Jews By Martin C. Albl
http://books.google.com/books?id=X4H36aEUM_0C&pg=PA89&dq=Cyril+Against+julian+mamre&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Cyril%20Against%20julian%20mamre&f=false

The Rublev Trinity: the icon of the Trinity by the monk-painter Andrei Rublev By Gabriel Bunge, Saint Andreĭ Rublev
http://books.google.com/books?id=uAC0E0TswtgC&pg=PA50&dq=Cyril+three+men+singular&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Cyril%20three%20men%20singular&f=false
has the history of the Patristic interpretation.

The meaning of icons By Léonide Ouspensky, Vladimir Lossky
http://books.google.com/books?id=iqncPadAx40C&dq=Theology+of+the+Icon&q=Cyril+Mamre#v=snippet&q=trinity&f=false
has some discussion.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #317 on: August 26, 2011, 08:57:13 AM »
The Stoglav Council specified that the Holy Spirit is to be iconographically portrayed as a dove only in icons of the Baptism of Christ, and only as tongues of fire in icons of Pentecost, as it is in these respective forms at these respective events that the Spirit manifested itself. Therefore, it is not correct to show the Spirit as a dove in other icons, as is, for example, seen frequently but erroneously, in icons of the Annunciation.

The Holy Spirit is not a dove by nature, nor is it a tongue of fire by nature. But, at specific times and specific incidents, it has become manifest in these forms.

The Council of the Hundred Chapters (Stoglav), Moscow, 1551

Chapter 41, question 1:

On the icons of the Holy Trinity, some represent a cross in the nimbus of only the middle figure, others on all three. On ancient and on Greek icons, the words "Holy Trinity" are written on the top, but there is no cross in the nimbus of any of the three. At present, "IC XC" and "The Holy Trinity" are written next to the central figure. Consult the divine canons and tell us which practice one should follow.

The Reply: painters must paint icons according to the ancient models as the Greeks painted them, as Andrei Rublev and other renowned painters made them. The inscription should be "The Holy Trinity." Painters are in no way to use their imagination.

The Great Council of Moscow, 1666-1667

Chapter 43: On the Iconographer and the Lord Sabaoth:

We decree that a skilled painter, who is also a good man (from the ranks of the clergy) be named monitor of the iconographers, their leader and supervisor. Let the ignorant not mock the ugly and badly-painted holy icons of Christ, of His Mother, His saints. Let all vanity of pretended wisdom cease, which has allowed everyone habitually to paint the Lord Sabaoth in various representations according to his own fantasy, without an authentic reference ...

We decree that from now on the image of the Lord Sabaoth will no longer be painted according to senseless and unsuitable imaginings, for no one has ever seen the Lord Sabaoth (that is, God the Father) in the flesh. Only Christ was seen in the flesh, and in this way He is portrayed, that is, in the flesh and not according to His divinity. Likewise, the most holy Mother of God and other saints of God ...

To paint on icons the Lord Sabaoth (that is, the Father) with a white beard holding the only-begotten Son in His lap with a dove between them is altogether absurd and improper, for no one has ever seen the Father in His divinity. Indeed, the Father has no flesh, and it is not in the flesh that the Son was born of the Father before all ages. And if the Prophet David says, "from the womb, before the morning star, I have begotten you" [Ps 109/110: 31], such generation is certainly not corporeal, but unutterable and unimaginable. For Christ Himself says in the Holy Gospel, "No one knows the Father except the Son."

In chapter 40, Isaiah asks: "What likeness will you find for God or what form to resemble His?" Likewise, the holy Apostle Paul says in chapter 17 of Acts: "Since we are God's offspring, we ought not to believe that the Godhead is the same as gold, silver, or stone shaped by human art and thought." St. John of Damascus likewise says: "Who can make an imitation of God the invisible, the incorporeal, the indescribable, and unimaginable? To make an image of the Divinity is the height of folly and impiety" [On the Heavens, Book IV, "On the Image"]. St. Gregory Dialogos forbade it in a similar way. This is why the Lord Sabaoth, who is the Godhead, and the engendering before all ages of the only-begotten Son of the Father must only be perceived through our mind. By no means is it proper to paint such images: it is impossible.

And the Holy Spirit is not, in His nature, a dove: He is by nature God. And no one has ever seen God, as the holy evangelist points out. Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove at the holy baptism of Christ in the Jordan; and this is why it is proper to represent the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, in this context only. Anywhere else, those who have good sense do not represent the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, for on Mount Tabor He appeared in the form of a cloud, and in another way elsewhere. Besides, Sabaoth is not the name of the Father only, but of the Holy Trinity. According to Dionysius the Areopagite, Sabaoth is translated from the Hebrew as "Lord of Hosts." And the Lord of Hosts is the Trinity. And if the Prophet Daniel says that he has seen the Ancient of Days sitting on the throne of judgment, that is not taken to mean the Father, but the Son at His Second Coming, who will judge all the nations with His fearsome judgment.

Likewise, on icons of the Holy Annunciation, they paint the Lord Sabaoth breathing from His mouth, and that breath reaches the womb of the Most Holy Mother of God. But who has seen this, or which passage from Holy Scripture bears witness to it? Where is this taken from? Such a practice and others like it are clearly adopted and borrowed from people whose understanding is vain, or rather whose mind is deranged or absent. This is why we decree that henceforth such mistaken painting cease, for it comes from unsound knowledge.


Aprops... this Council provides a wonderful example of the Orthodox process of ratification and reception of a Council and its teachings and decrees.

As the centuries have rolled by since 1666 it has become clear that the Holy Spirit breathing in the Church has not brought it to acquiesce in the Council's requirements on painting the Trinity.  The piety of the Church and her iconographers has allowed the 1666 decrees to fall into abeyance.

We see a primary example of this in the sacred monastery of the Holy Trinity at Jordanville where the Trinity icon (forbidden by the Council) is a major focus of veneration.
That one is not so bad.  The one in Christ the Savior expresses what Ouspensky and Lossky warned about it being a representation of the filioque.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #318 on: August 26, 2011, 09:03:26 AM »

As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.


Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.
I missed this before



They seem to be a Romanian, specifically Transylvanian, specialty.

that said, I don't know what the flowers were for in the Sacred Heart one which, unlike the Romanian icons, does not show Christ and does not, in contrast to the Romanian icons, have specific warrant in Scripture and, unlike the Romanian icons, has no conection to the rest of the Faith (say, as in the instance of the Romanian icons, the nature of the Eucharist and its effect).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #319 on: August 26, 2011, 09:08:35 AM »
Quote
That one is not so bad.  The one in Christ the Savior expresses what Ouspensky and Lossky warned about it being a representation of the filioque.

Oh, don't get me started on the travesties in Christ the Savior!!  >:( But the Paternity/Otechestvo (as per the Jordanville iconostasis) is no less objectionable, it is simply a compositional variant of the NT Trinity. It being painted in a geometric, "iconographic" style instead of a naturalistic one does not confer canonicity upon it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 09:09:57 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #320 on: August 26, 2011, 09:39:42 AM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

ROCA aside, why is the Sacred Heart rejected by the majority of your Antiochian priests?    Are they simply ignorant men who have no idea of its patristic base?

Is it rejected? I'd like to see something in writing, if you have it. I've corresponded with many Antiochian priests, and read most of the literature that has been made available (and some that hasn't) in regards to devotional/liturgical practices and I can't say that I've encountered any "rejections" as much as just...indifference.

Believe it or not, I fall into the latter category. I don't much care for the feast or the devotion, I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context. I'll defend it if for the simple fact that no one else around here will and lurking readers might find it beneficial to be exposed to the historical precedent for the devotion aside from "psychosexual" visions.

The attack on western women saints and mystics as psycho-sexual hysterics is a topic that I was introduced to by Women's Studies courses back when I was an arm-chair marxist, and the analysis was designed to destroy all that is good and holy about female monastic life in the west.   It is a post-modern idea and it is a sin and a shame that it is promoted on this Forum.

no, it's at least a renaissance idea



However I am a regular reader of another group that is promoting the acceptance of active homosexuals and same sex marriage in Orthodoxy, so I don't worry too much that y'all will come out unscathed.
oh, so that is where you get your "Orthodox" "experts."  No wonder your views are screwed up (btw, you may have noticed we have sympathizers to that agenda here.  You didn't have to bring in your anonymous "Orthodox experts."

Soon those who advocate for a strict heterosexual definition of marriage will be labeled the mentally ill, and you will have to fight to prove you are not.  Good luck with that.
That has already happened.  Where have you been?
:)
:)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #321 on: August 26, 2011, 09:42:38 AM »
The Sacred Prepuce is a physical object.
Oh, come now.

It was back around 4 BC. Now it's either not on earth or long decomposed.

Unless you trust the Syriac Infancy Gospel. But I'd rather not.

Things like this scandalize Christianity as a whole. And not in the "scandal of the cross" way.
It is truly absurd for (some) Orthodox to say that they will venerate the Sacred Prepuce, but at the same time they severely criticise the Catholic devotion to the Sacred Heart.
Not at all. The Sacred Prepuce was cut off. Was the Sacred Heart cut out?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #322 on: August 26, 2011, 09:47:39 AM »
Quote
Honestly, I had a feeling you'd like this picture. One more piece of evidence your finding the Sacred Heart disgusting is just inconsistency.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, Volnutt. It's a nice picture (certainly a far cry from the gross abuses of Lentz and his proteges), but it is still not an icon.
I'm just saying, both the EO and the RCC popular piety have the for all practical purposes the same gory fixations and I find it sad that Father Ambrose keeps bending over backwards to pretend there is a significant aesthetic difference.

Admittedly, I probably shouldn't be picking at this though since it really has nothing to do with the Traditional-ness of the Sacred Heart. Like biro, I'm just sick of all the chest beating is all.
odd choice of words
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #323 on: August 26, 2011, 09:50:07 AM »
The Litany of the Sacred Autopsy.  Interesting.
You know, one problem wit the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is that God did not give it to His children in the Orthodox Church.  He gave it to the Roman Catholics through the visions of a Catholic nun some of which are frankly kind of psychosexual and orgasmic.  Not a few revelations through nuns have this sexual component.

I think that if God had wanted us to have it He would have given it to us and we would not be begging and borrowing it from the Catholics 400 years after they discovered it.

Since Western Rite ROCOR does not believe in the promotion of so-called sexually hysterical women or the Sacred Heart:  I surely hope they keep that sexually hysterical Nestorian Bernard of Clairvaux off their calendar because his prayers have inspired generations of 'sexually hysterical Nestorian' western saints:

Rhythmical Prayer to the Sacred Members
of Jesus Hanging on the Cross

        Ascribed to St. Bernard
        PART I
        TO THE FEET

        I  O Saviour of the world, I cry to Thee; O Saviour, suffering God, I worship Thee; O wounded beauteous Love, I kneel to Thee; Thou knowest, Lord, how I would follow Thee, If of Thyself Thou give Thyself to Me.

        II Thy Presence I Believe; O come to me! Behold me prostrate, Jesus; look on me! How beautiful Thou art! O turn to me! O in Thy tender mercy turn to me, And let Thy untold pity pardon me!

        III  With trembling love and feat I worship Thee; I kiss the grievous nails which entered Thee, And think on those dire wounds which tortured Thee, And, grieving, lift my weeping eyes to Thee, Transfixed and dying all for love of me!

        IV  O wondrous grace! O gracious charity! O love of sinners in such agony! Sweet Father of the poor! O who can be Unmoved to witness this great mystery,-- The Healer smitten, hanging on a tree?

        IV  O wondrous grace! O gracious charity! O love of sinners in such agony! Sweet Father of the poor! O who can be Unmoved to witness this great mystery,-- The Healer smitten, hanging on a tree?

        V  O gentle Jesus, turn Thee unto me; What i have broken do Thou bind in me, And what is crooked make Thou straight in me; What I have lost restore Thou unto me, And what is weak and sickly heal in me.

        VI  O Love! with all my strength I seek for Thee; Upon and in thy Cross I look for Thee; With sorrow and with hope I turn to Thee,-- That through Thy Blood new health may come to me, That washed therein Thy love may pardon me.

        VII   O take my heart, Thou Loved One; let it be Transfixed with those dear wounds for love of Thee, O wound it, Jesus, with pure love of Thee; And let it so be crucified with Thee, that it may be forever joined to Thee.

        VIII  Sweet Jesus, loving God, I cry to Thee; Thou guilty, yet I come for love of Thee; O show Thyself, dear Saviour, kind to me! Unworthy as I am, O turn to me, Nor at thy sacred Feet abandon me!

        IX   Dear Jesus, bathed in tears, I kneel to Thee; In shame and grief I lift my eyes to Thee; Prostrate before Thy Cross I bow to Thee, And thy dear Feet embrace; O look on me, Yea, from Thy Cross, O look, and pardon me.

        X  O my Beloved, stretched against that Thee, Whose arms divine are now enfolding me, whose gracious Heart is now upholding me,-- O my Beloved, let me wholly be Transformed, forgiven, one alone with Thee!

        PART II
        TO THE KNEES

        I   O Jesus, King of Saints, I worship Thee; O hope of sinners, hail! I rest on Thee; True God, true man, Thou hangest on the Tree Transfixed, with quivering flesh and shaking knees, A criminal esteemed,--I worship Thee.

        II  Alas, how poor, how naked, wilt Thou be! How hast Thou stript Thyself for love of me, How made Thyself a gazing-stock to be! Not forced, but, O my God! How willingly In all Thy limbs Thou sufferest on that Tree!

        III   Thy Precious Blood wells forth abundantly From all Thy open wounds incessantly; All bathed therein, O God, in agony Thou standest on the Cross of infamy, Awaiting the appointed hour to die.

        IV  O infinite, O wondrous majesty! O terrible, unheard-of poverty! Ah, who, returning so great charity, I willing, Jesus, thus to give for Thee His blood for Thine, in faithful love for Thee?

        V  O Jesus, how shall I, then, answer Thee, Who am so vile, and have not followed Thee? Or how repay the love that loveth me With such sublime, such awful charity Transfixed, from double death to set me free?

        VI  O Jesus, what Thy love hath been for me! O Jesus, death could never conquer Thee! Ah, with what loving care Thou keepest me Enfolded in Thine arms, lest I should be, By death of sin, a moment torn from Thee!

        VII  Behold, O Jesus, how for love of Thee, With all my soul I trembling cling to Thee, And Thy dear Knees embrace. O pity me! Thou knowest why--in pity bear with me, And overlook the shame that covers me!

        VIII  O let the Blood I worship flow on me, That what I do may never anger Thee; The Blood which flows at every pore from Thee Each imperfection may it wash from me, That I may undefiled and perfect be.

        IX   O force me, best Beloved, to draw to Thee, Transfixed and bleeding on the shameful Tree, Despised and stretched in dying agony! All my desire, O Lord, is fixed on Thee; O call me, then, and I will follow Thee.

        X   I have no other love, dear Lord, but Thee; Thou art my first and last; I cling to Thee. It is no labor, Lord; love sets me free; Then heal me, cleanse me, let me rest on Thee, For love is life, and life is love--in Thee.

        PART III
        TO THE HANDS

        I   Hail, holy Shepherd! Lord, I worship Thee, Fatigued with combat, steeped in misery; Whose sacred Hands, outstretched in agony, All pierced and dislocated on the Tree, Are fastened to the wood of infamy.

        II   Dear holy Hands, I humbly worship ye, With roses filled, fresh blossoms of that Tree; The cruel iron enters into ye, While open gashes yield unceasingly The Precious stream down-dropping from the Tree.

        III   Behold, Thy Blood, O Jesus, flows on me-- The price of my salvation falls on me; O ruddy as the rose, it drops on me. Sweet Precious Blood, it wells abundantly From both Thy sacred Hands to set me free.

        IV   My heart leaps up, O Jesus, unto Thee; Drawn by those nail-pierced Hands it flies to Thee; Drawn by those Blood-stained Hands stretched out for me, My soul breaks out with sighing unto Thee, And longs to slake its thirst, O Love, in Thee.

        V   My God, what great stupendous charity-- Both good and bad are welcomed here by Thee! The slothful heart Thou drawest graciously, The loving one Thou callest tenderly, And unto all a pardon grantest free.

        VI   Behold, I now present myself to Thee, Who dost present thy bleeding Hands to me; The sick Thou healest when they come to Thee; Thou canst not, therefore, turn away from me, Whose love Thou knowest, Lord, is all for Thee.

        VII   O my Beloved, fastened to the Tree, Draw, by Thy love, my senses unto Thee; My will, my intellect, my memory, And all I am, make subject unto Thee, In whose dear arms alone is liberty.

        VIII   O draw me for Thy Cross' sake to Thee; O draw me for Thy so wide charity; Sweet Jesus, draw my heart in truth to Thee, O put an end to all my misery, And crown me with Thy Cross and victory!

        IX   O Jesus, place Thy sacred Hands on me, With transport let me kiss them tenderly, With groans and tears embrace them fervently; And, O for these deep wounds I worship Thee; And for hte blessed drops that fall on me!

        X   O dearest Jesus, I commend to Thee Myself, and all I am, most perfectly; Bathed in Thy Blood, behold, I live for Thee; O, may Thy blessed Hands encompass me, And in extremity deliver me!

        PART IV
        TO THE SIDE

        I   O Jesus, highest Good, I yearn for Thee; O Jesus, merciful, I hope in Thee, Whose sacred Body hands upon the Tree, Whose limbs, all dislocated painfully, Are stretched in torture, all for love of me!

        II   Hail, sacred Side of Jesus! Verily The hidden spring of mercy lies in Thee, The source of honeyed sweetness dwells in Thee, The fountain of redemption flows from Thee, The secret well of love that cleanses me.

        III   Behold, O King of Love, I draw to Thee; If I am wrong, O Jesus, pardon me; Thy love, Beloved, calls me lovingly, As I with blushing cheek gaze willingly Upon the living wound that bleeds for me.

        IV   O gentle opening, I worship Thee; O open door and deep, I look in Thee; O most pure stream, I gaze and gaze on Thee: More ruddy than the rose, I draw to Thee; More healing than all health, I fly to Thee.

        V   More sweet than wine Thine odor is for me; The poisoned breath of sin it drives from me; Thou art the draught of life poured out for me. O ye who thirst, come, drink thereof with me; And Thou, sweet wound, O open unto me.

        VI   O red wound open, let me draw to Thee, And let my throbbing heart be filled from Thee! Ah, see! My heart, Beloved, faints for Thee. O my Beloved, open unto me, That I may pass and lose myself in Thee.

        VII   Lord, with my mouth I touch and worship Thee, With all the strength I have I cling to Thee, With all my love I plunge my heart in Thee, My very life-blood would I drawn from Thee,-- O Jesus, Jesus! Draw me into Thee!

        VIII   How Sweet Thy savor is! Who tastes of Thee, O Jesus Christ, can relish naught but Thee; Who tastes Thy living sweetness lives by Thee; All else is void--the soul must die for Thee; So faints my heart,--so would I die for thee.

        IX   I languish, Lord! O let me hide in Thee! In Thy sweet Side, my Love, O bury me! And may the fire divine consuming Thee Burn in my heart where it lies hid in Thee, Without a fear reposing peacefully!

        X   When in the hour of death Thou callest me, O Love of loves, may my soul enter Thee; May my last breath, O Jesus fly to Thee; So no fierce beast may drive my heart from Thee, But in Thy Side may it remain with Thee!

        PART V
        TO THE BREAST

        I   O God of my salvation, hail to Thee! O Jesus, sweetest Love, all hail to Thee! O venerable Breast, I worship Thee; O dwelling-place of love, I fly to Thee, With trembling touch adore and worship Thee.

        II   Hail, throne of the Most Holy Trinity! Hail, ark immense of tender charity! Thou stay of weakness and infirmity, Sweet rest of weary souls who rest on Thee, Dear couch of loving ones who lean on Thee!

        III   With reverence, O Love, I kneel to Thee, O worthy to be ever sought by me; Behold me, Jesus, looking unto Thee. O, set my heart on fire, dear Love, from Thee, And burn it in the flame that burns in Thee.

        IV   O make my breast a precious home for thee, A furnace of sweet love and purity, A well of holy grief and piety; Deny my will, conform it unto Thee, That grace abundant may be mine in Thee.

        V   Sweet Jesus, loving Shepherd, come to me; Dear Son of God and Mary, come to me; Kind Father come, let Thy Heart pity me, And cleanse the fountain of my misery In that great fountain of Thy clemency.

        VI   Hail, fruitful splendor of the Deity! Hail, fruitful figure of Divinity! From the full treasure of Thy charity, O pour some gift in Thy benignity Upon the desolate who cry to Thee!

        VII   Dear Breast of most sweet Jesus, mine would be All Thine in its entire conformity; Absolve it from all sin, and set it free, That it may burn with ardent charity, And never, never cease to think on Thee.

        VIII   Abyss of wisdom from eternity, The harmonies of angels worship Thee; Entrancing sweetness flows, O Breast, from thee; John tasted it as he lay rapt on Thee; O grant me thus that I may dwell in Thee!

        IX   Hail, fountain deep of God's benignity! The fullness of the immense Divinity Hath found at last a creature home in Thee. Ah, may the counsel that I learn from Thee All imperfection purify in me!

        X   True temple of the Godhead, hail to Thee! O draw me in Thy gracious charity, Thou ark of goodness, full of grace for me. Great God of all, have mercy upon me, And on Thy right hand keep a place for me.

        PART VI
        TO THE FACE

        I   Hail, bleeding Head of Jesus, hail to Thee! Thou thorn-crowned Head, I humbly worship Thee! O wounded Head, I lift my hands to Thee; O lovely Face besmeared, I gaze on Thee; O bruised and livid Face, look down on me!

        II   Hail, beauteous Face of Jesus, bent on me, Whom angel choirs adore exultantly! Hail, sweetest Face of Jesus, bruised for me-- Hail, Holy One, whose glorious Face for me Is shorn of beauty on that fatal Tree!

        III   All strength, all freshness, is gone forth from Thee: What wonder! Hath not God afflicted Thee, And is not death himself approaching Thee? O Love! But death hath laid his touch on Thee, And faint and broken features turn to me.

        IV   O have they thus maltreated Thee, my own? O have they Thy sweet Face despised, my own? And all for my unworthy sake, my own! O in Thy beauty turn to me, my own; O turn one look of love on me, my own!

        V   In this Thy Passion, Lord, remember me; In this Thy pain, O Love, acknowledge me; The honey of whose lips was shed on me, The milk of whose delights hath strengthened me Whose sweetness is beyond delight for me!

        VI   Despise me not, O Love; I long for Thee; Contemn me not, unworthy though I be; But now that death is fast approaching Thee, Incline Thy Head, my Love, my Love, to me, To these poor arms, and let it rest on me!

        VII   The holy Passion I would share with Thee, And in Thy dying love rejoice with Thee; Content if by this Cross I die with Thee; Content, Thou knowest, Lord, how willingly Where I have lived to die for love of Thee.

        VIII   For this Thy bitter death all thanks to Thee, Dear Jesus, and Thy wondrous love for me! O gracious God, so merciful to me, Do as Thy guilty one entreateth Thee, And at the end let me be found with Thee!

        IX   When from this life, O Love, Thou callest me, Then, Jesus, be not wanting unto me, But in the dreadful hour of agony, O hasten, Lord, and be Thou nigh to me, Defend, protect, and O deliver me.

        X   When Thou, O God, shalt bid my soul be free, Then, dearest Jesus, show Thyself to me! O condescend to show Thyself to me,-- Upon Thy saving Cross, dear Lord, to me,-- And let me die, my Lord, embracing Thee!

        PART VII
        TO THE SACRED HEART

        I   Hail, sacred Heart of God's great Majesty! Hail, sweetest Heart, my heart saluteth Thee! With great desire, O Heart, I seek for Thee, And faint for joy, O Heart, embracing Thee; Then give me leave, O Love, to speak to Thee.

        II   With what sweet love Thou languishedst for me! What pain and torment was that love to Thee! How didst Thou all Thyself exhaust for me! How hast Thou wholly given Thyself to me, That death no longer might have hold of me!

        III   O bitter death and cruel! Can it be Thou darest so to enter greedily Into that cell divine? O can it be The Life of life, that lives there gloriously, Should feel thy bite, O death, and yield to thee?

        IV   For Thy death's sake which Thou didst bear for me, When Thou, O sweetest Heart, didst faint for me, O Heart most precious in its agony, See how I yearn, and longing turn to Thee! Yield to my love, and draw me unto Thee!

        V   O sacred Heart, beloved most tenderly, Cleanse Thou my own; more worthy let it be, All hardened as it is with vanity; O make it tender, loving, fearing Thee, And all its icy coldness drive from me.

        VI   O sinner as I am, I come to Thee; My very vitals throb and call for Thee; O Love, sweet love, draw hither unto me! O Heart of Love, my heart would ravished be, And sicken with the wound of love for Thee!

        VII   ilate and open, Heart of love, for me, And like a rose of wondrous fragrance be, Sweet Heart of love, united unto me; Anoint and pierce my heart, O Love, with Thee, How can he suffer, Lord, who loveth Thee?

        VIII   O Heart of Love, who vanquished is by Thee Knows nothing, but beside himself must be; No bounds are set to that sweet liberty, No moderation,--he must fly to Thee, Or die he must of many deaths for Thee.

        IX   My living heart, O Love, cries out for Thee; With all its strength, O Love, my soul loves Thee; O Heart of Love, incline Thou unto me, That I with burning love may turn to Thee, And with devoted breast recline on Thee!

        X   In that sweet furnace let me live for Thee, Nor let the sleep of sloth encumber me; O let me sing to Thee and weep to Thee, Adore, and magnify, and honor Thee, And always take my full delight in Thee.

        XI   Thou Rose of wondrous fragrance, open wide, And bring my heart into Thy wounded Side, O sweet heart, open! Draw Thy loving bride, All panting with desires intensified, And satisfy her love unsatisfied.

        XII   Unite my heart, O Jesus, unto Thine, And let Thy wounded love be found in mine. Ah, if my heart, dear love, be made like Thine O will it not be pierced with darts divine, the sweet reproach of love that thrills through Thine?

        XIII   O Jesus, draw my heart within Thy Breast, That it may be by Thee alone possessed. O Love, in that sweet pain it would find rest, In that entrancing sorrow would be blest, And love itself in joy upon Thy Breast.

        XIV   Behold, O Jesus, how it draws to Thee! O call it, that it may remain in Thee! See with what large desire it thirsts for Thee! Reprove it not, O Love; it loves but Thee: Then bid it live--by one sweet taste of Thee!


        ____________

        Reproduced from "Rhythmical Prayer to the Sacred Members of Jesus Hanging Upon the Cross," ascribed to St. Bernard, translated by Emily Mary Shapcote, found in "The Life of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" by St. Bonaventure, P.J. Kenedy and Sons (New York: 1881).

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #324 on: August 26, 2011, 09:53:38 AM »
One ruling of the 1666 Council has been definitively overturned- the condemnation of the Old Rite.

I think this council did much more harm than good.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 09:54:41 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #325 on: August 26, 2011, 10:09:42 AM »
no, it's at least a renaissance idea




Good grief! Is Blessed Ludovica dying, or having an orgasm?  :o :o Makes me all the more grateful for the dignity, stillness, gravitas and dispassion of good iconography.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #326 on: August 26, 2011, 10:17:45 AM »
Good grief! Is Blessed Ludovica dying, or having an orgasm?  :o :o Makes me all the more grateful for the dignity, stillness, gravitas and dispassion of good iconography.
Well, the French do call it "the little death"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_petite_mort
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #327 on: August 26, 2011, 05:57:13 PM »
Good grief! Is Blessed Ludovica dying, or having an orgasm?  :o :o Makes me all the more grateful for the dignity, stillness, gravitas and dispassion of good iconography.

Bernini was trying to represent both death and spiritual ecstasy.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #328 on: August 26, 2011, 07:37:58 PM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
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Offline recent convert

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #329 on: August 29, 2011, 10:13:41 AM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #330 on: August 29, 2011, 11:52:20 AM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.

I'm skeptical. Yesterday after Liturgy I went to our parish bookstore which has a few copies of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book for sale (I go to an Eastern Rite Church by the way) and I reviewed the contents and the prayer book contains devotions to the Sacred Heart. It is an Orthodox Western Rite prayer book, edited by an Antiochian Orthodox priest in my city (from an Eastern Rite church). He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.

Offline recent convert

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #331 on: August 29, 2011, 11:56:12 AM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.

I'm skeptical. Yesterday after Liturgy I went to our parish bookstore which has a few copies of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book for sale (I go to an Eastern Rite Church by the way) and I reviewed the contents and the prayer book contains devotions to the Sacred Heart. It is an Orthodox Western Rite prayer book, edited by an Antiochian Orthodox priest in my city (from an Eastern Rite church). He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.
I think it is best  to avoid it. Again, I mean no denigration of  piety within the RCC.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:57:30 AM by recent convert »
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #332 on: August 29, 2011, 12:03:50 PM »
Seeing this "sacred heart" idea  perhaps seeping into Orthodoxy, it makes me wonder if this is how things like depicting the Father & the Son interchangeably via the ancient of days within icons (which is "acceptable" as I learned on another thread & do not want to revive) come to be accepted tradtion. Examples like this seem that they should be easily rejected by any layerson who knows their faith basics but some high falutins feel otherwise & burdensome custom becomes inflicted on the laity.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 12:06:14 PM by recent convert »
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #333 on: August 30, 2011, 10:15:19 AM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.

I'm skeptical. Yesterday after Liturgy I went to our parish bookstore which has a few copies of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book for sale (I go to an Eastern Rite Church by the way) and I reviewed the contents and the prayer book contains devotions to the Sacred Heart. It is an Orthodox Western Rite prayer book, edited by an Antiochian Orthodox priest in my city (from an Eastern Rite church). He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.
I think it is best  to avoid it. Again, I mean no denigration of  piety within the RCC.

You think its best. However, our Bishops don't seem to have a problem with it.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #334 on: August 30, 2011, 10:20:16 AM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.

I'm skeptical. Yesterday after Liturgy I went to our parish bookstore which has a few copies of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book for sale (I go to an Eastern Rite Church by the way) and I reviewed the contents and the prayer book contains devotions to the Sacred Heart. It is an Orthodox Western Rite prayer book, edited by an Antiochian Orthodox priest in my city (from an Eastern Rite church). He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.
I think it is best  to avoid it. Again, I mean no denigration of  piety within the RCC.

You think its best. However, our Bishops don't seem to have a problem with it.

I understand that the bishops dont have a problem with it. I just find it very disturbing. Is that wrong?


PP
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #335 on: August 30, 2011, 10:23:53 AM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.

I'm skeptical. Yesterday after Liturgy I went to our parish bookstore which has a few copies of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book for sale (I go to an Eastern Rite Church by the way) and I reviewed the contents and the prayer book contains devotions to the Sacred Heart. It is an Orthodox Western Rite prayer book, edited by an Antiochian Orthodox priest in my city (from an Eastern Rite church). He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.
I think it is best  to avoid it. Again, I mean no denigration of  piety within the RCC.

You think its best. However, our Bishops don't seem to have a problem with it.

I understand that the bishops dont have a problem with it. I just find it very disturbing. Is that wrong?


PP

What do you mean by "find it disturbing"...? 

I am just curious to see what you are "seeing" inside.

M.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #336 on: August 30, 2011, 10:30:40 AM »
What do you mean by "find it disturbing"...? 

I am just curious to see what you are "seeing" inside.

M.


To me, who is just beginning to understand it all it just dosent look like other icons. I look at icons of Christ and the Virgin and it's the iconography of them as a whole. To venerate them in the fashion that the sacred heart shows it just...I dunno, looks and feels creepy.


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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #337 on: August 30, 2011, 10:38:17 AM »


What do you mean by "find it disturbing"...?  

I am just curious to see what you are "seeing" inside.

M.

Quote
To me, who is just beginning to understand it all it just dosent look like other icons. I look at icons of Christ and the Virgin and it's the iconography of them as a whole. To venerate them in the fashion that the sacred heart shows it just...I dunno, looks and feels creepy.


PP

ahhh...that makes good sense to me.  I tend to be still very literal in my visual life of the mind so that I do not like those images that disturb you either.  I am more abstract with words but very literal with images.  

So I tend to ignore the images of the Sacred Heart and focus on the words of some of the prayers to the Sacred Heart...or no words at all, simply being mindful of the self-emptying of Jesus on the Cross and the literal piercing of his side/the lancing of his heart so that every drop poured out.  

That does not bother me if I don't think too hard on it, just know the reality and the gratitude that I owe to Him who came to save me.

A devotion to the Sacred Heart, to me, never means gazing upon images that disturb me.

But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.  They also tend to be the kinds of people who can watch horror films and it doesn't bother them because there's a distance between them and the film that I can never manage to achieve.

M.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 10:41:26 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #338 on: August 30, 2011, 10:55:47 AM »
Quote
That does not bother me if I don't think too hard on it, just know the reality and the gratitude that I owe to Him who came to save me

Good point

Quote
But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.  They also tend to be the kinds of people who can watch horror films and it doesn't bother them because there's a distance between them and the film that I can never manage to achieve

Yep, thats me :)

I dunno. Maybe this is because of my inexperience but I dont understand the purpose of it....


PP
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Offline Alpo

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #339 on: August 30, 2011, 10:58:37 AM »
He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.

Hierarchs are not infallible. For example the synod of Florence was accepted by quite a number of hierarchs.
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Leviticus 19:34

Offline recent convert

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #340 on: August 30, 2011, 11:01:56 AM »
Things can get confusing for us ordinary lay types. I remember reading an overview of Thomas A Kempis': Imitation of Christ on a Catholic site & his work struck me as probably one that could be beneficial for any Christian & although I have not read it, my understanding was to agree (& that is how I feel personally about it too). Then I read that St. Ignatius Brinchaninov says this work is an expression of prelest so I think, "ok, just leave it alone but feel no need to judge it" (& still feel that way).

The sacred heart concept never seemed to even occur in Orthodoxy from where I understand it developed from the vision of a late 17th c. Catholic Nun and personally to me it does not seem deluded or anything but it does not seem like something done within Orthopraxis. So again, I think "no need to criticise it, judge it, etc. just let it be since it is outside the church (right???)" well maybe not?

So I guess I can leave it alone, keep a sunny dispostion towards it, & add to my personal bewilderement file & not worry about it.   ;)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 11:03:07 AM by recent convert »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #341 on: August 30, 2011, 11:12:34 AM »
Quote
That does not bother me if I don't think too hard on it, just know the reality and the gratitude that I owe to Him who came to save me

Good point

Quote
But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.  They also tend to be the kinds of people who can watch horror films and it doesn't bother them because there's a distance between them and the film that I can never manage to achieve

Yep, thats me :)

I dunno. Maybe this is because of my inexperience but I dont understand the purpose of it....


PP

Is this a need to grasp things rationally, I see?... :)

Just kiddin'...

M.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #342 on: August 30, 2011, 11:17:13 AM »
Things can get confusing for us ordinary lay types. I remember reading an overview of Thomas A Kempis': Imitation of Christ on a Catholic site & his work struck me as probably one that could be beneficial for any Christian & although I have not read it, my understanding was to agree (& that is how I feel personally about it too). Then I read that St. Ignatius Brinchaninov says this work is an expression of prelest so I think, "ok, just leave it alone but feel no need to judge it" (& still feel that way).

The sacred heart concept never seemed to even occur in Orthodoxy from where I understand it developed from the vision of a late 17th c. Catholic Nun and personally to me it does not seem deluded or anything but it does not seem like something done within Orthopraxis. So again, I think "no need to criticise it, judge it, etc. just let it be since it is outside the church (right???)" well maybe not?

So I guess I can leave it alone, keep a sunny dispostion towards it, & add to my personal bewilderement file & not worry about it.   ;)

I think this is a wonderful attitude.

Though your history of the devotion is foreshortened by many hundreds of years.  That is a tactic used to make the devotion look like hysterical female dementia at work...and thus the devotion is a product of such dementia.  It is an old marxist feminist trick picked up by some Orthodox critics of the Roman Catholic Religious Organization...or Vaticanists...pick your choice.

Also Poor Old Tom a Kempis was most likely NOT filled with prelest.  I won't read st. I. Brianchianinov on account of his own tendencies toward spiritual bloat... :)  He should have taken your attitude to heart and stuck to his own knittin'

M.

Offline Melodist

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #343 on: August 30, 2011, 11:25:21 AM »
But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.

I've developed a tendency not to take religious imagery "literally". The image is trying to "say something" visually. Especially iconography. If I took all iconography "literally", then I would have to believe that the saints walked around with literally glowing heads, that Christ went His entire life with a literal glowing cruciform around His head with the name of God literally appearing in them, that mandorlas are a literal reality, and that the Theotokos gave birth to twins at the nativity just to name a few examples of extreme "literalism". That doesn't mean that these things don't depict reality, just that they are not a literal depiction.

I am personally more comfortable with the image of the Sacred Heart as an image of Christ's love for mankind than I am with the prayers and devotions that have been written. I have no interest at all in visions, promises, or indulgences that may or may not be associated with it. The image is there, it is meant to express something, so when I see the image, I try to see it for what the image itself is trying to say without really contemplating everything else that it seems so many other people have a tendency to attach to it.

Just a few thoughts.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline recent convert

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #344 on: August 30, 2011, 11:32:38 AM »
Things can get confusing for us ordinary lay types. I remember reading an overview of Thomas A Kempis': Imitation of Christ on a Catholic site & his work struck me as probably one that could be beneficial for any Christian & although I have not read it, my understanding was to agree (& that is how I feel personally about it too). Then I read that St. Ignatius Brinchaninov says this work is an expression of prelest so I think, "ok, just leave it alone but feel no need to judge it" (& still feel that way).

The sacred heart concept never seemed to even occur in Orthodoxy from where I understand it developed from the vision of a late 17th c. Catholic Nun and personally to me it does not seem deluded or anything but it does not seem like something done within Orthopraxis. So again, I think "no need to criticise it, judge it, etc. just let it be since it is outside the church (right???)" well maybe not?

So I guess I can leave it alone, keep a sunny dispostion towards it, & add to my personal bewilderement file & not worry about it.   ;)

I think this is a wonderful attitude.

Though your history of the devotion is foreshortened by many hundreds of years.  That is a tactic used to make the devotion look like hysterical female dementia at work...and thus the devotion is a product of such dementia.  It is an old marxist feminist trick picked up by some Orthodox critics of the Roman Catholic Religious Organization...or Vaticanists...pick your choice.

Also Poor Old Tom a Kempis was most likely NOT filled with prelest.  I won't read st. I. Brianchianinov on account of his own tendencies toward spiritual bloat... :)  He should have taken your attitude to heart and stuck to his own knittin'

M.
I just want to clarify that I was not linking St. Ignatius Brianchaninov to the account of  the 17th c. nun whose vision allegedly confirmed the sacred heart that was supposedly devoted to for generations previous (no disrepect intended I just cannot affirm or deny these) and was making a comparison between 2 different matters outside the OC. The account of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov reaction to Kempis & the current casual acceptance of the sacred heart. Again, I try to remain cautious, a little confused, but definitely not stressed in any way. God bless.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 11:33:30 AM by recent convert »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #345 on: August 30, 2011, 11:35:06 AM »
But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.

I've developed a tendency not to take religious imagery "literally". The image is trying to "say something" visually. Especially iconography. If I took all iconography "literally", then I would have to believe that the saints walked around with literally glowing heads, that Christ went His entire life with a literal glowing cruciform around His head with the name of God literally appearing in them, that mandorlas are a literal reality, and that the Theotokos gave birth to twins at the nativity just to name a few examples of extreme "literalism". That doesn't mean that these things don't depict reality, just that they are not a literal depiction.

I am personally more comfortable with the image of the Sacred Heart as an image of Christ's love for mankind than I am with the prayers and devotions that have been written. I have no interest at all in visions, promises, or indulgences that may or may not be associated with it. The image is there, it is meant to express something, so when I see the image, I try to see it for what the image itself is trying to say without really contemplating everything else that it seems so many other people have a tendency to attach to it.

Just a few thoughts.

That is another way of looking at it.  I prefer the words and prayers and thoughts of the Holy Fathers and saints passed down to the images, even though there is an "image" of the "heart" of Jesus in my mind.  There is no one way of approaching a devotion.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #346 on: August 30, 2011, 11:36:44 AM »
Things can get confusing for us ordinary lay types. I remember reading an overview of Thomas A Kempis': Imitation of Christ on a Catholic site & his work struck me as probably one that could be beneficial for any Christian & although I have not read it, my understanding was to agree (& that is how I feel personally about it too). Then I read that St. Ignatius Brinchaninov says this work is an expression of prelest so I think, "ok, just leave it alone but feel no need to judge it" (& still feel that way).

The sacred heart concept never seemed to even occur in Orthodoxy from where I understand it developed from the vision of a late 17th c. Catholic Nun and personally to me it does not seem deluded or anything but it does not seem like something done within Orthopraxis. So again, I think "no need to criticise it, judge it, etc. just let it be since it is outside the church (right???)" well maybe not?

So I guess I can leave it alone, keep a sunny dispostion towards it, & add to my personal bewilderement file & not worry about it.   ;)

I think this is a wonderful attitude.

Though your history of the devotion is foreshortened by many hundreds of years.  That is a tactic used to make the devotion look like hysterical female dementia at work...and thus the devotion is a product of such dementia.  It is an old marxist feminist trick picked up by some Orthodox critics of the Roman Catholic Religious Organization...or Vaticanists...pick your choice.

Also Poor Old Tom a Kempis was most likely NOT filled with prelest.  I won't read st. I. Brianchianinov on account of his own tendencies toward spiritual bloat... :)  He should have taken your attitude to heart and stuck to his own knittin'

M.
I just want to clarify that I was not linking St. Ignatius Brianchaninov to the account of  the 17th c. nun whose vision allegedly confirmed the sacred heart that was supposedly devoted to for generations previous (no disrepect intended I just cannot affirm or deny these) and was making a comparison between 2 different matters outside the OC. The account of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov reaction to Kempis & the current casual acceptance of the sacred heart. Again, I try to remain cautious, a little confused, but definitely not stressed in any way. God bless.

My words are strongly delivered but I was not pushing back at you personally. 

I think you are wise.  There should be no "casual" acceptance of any part of revealed truth!!

M.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #347 on: August 30, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »
Quote
That does not bother me if I don't think too hard on it, just know the reality and the gratitude that I owe to Him who came to save me

Good point

Quote
But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.  They also tend to be the kinds of people who can watch horror films and it doesn't bother them because there's a distance between them and the film that I can never manage to achieve

Yep, thats me :)

I dunno. Maybe this is because of my inexperience but I dont understand the purpose of it....


PP

Is this a need to grasp things rationally, I see?... :)

Just kiddin'...

M.
,

 :D :D :D :D

Considering the other conversation we have going at the moment, your statement was classic :)


PP
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #348 on: August 30, 2011, 11:53:56 AM »
Quote
That does not bother me if I don't think too hard on it, just know the reality and the gratitude that I owe to Him who came to save me

Good point

Quote
But there are others who do not see that image literally and do not come to any distress over the contemplation of those images.  They also tend to be the kinds of people who can watch horror films and it doesn't bother them because there's a distance between them and the film that I can never manage to achieve

Yep, thats me :)

I dunno. Maybe this is because of my inexperience but I dont understand the purpose of it....


PP

Is this a need to grasp things rationally, I see?... :)

Just kiddin'...

M.
,

 :D :D :D :D

Considering the other conversation we have going at the moment, your statement was classic :)


PP

 ;D  Which is why I said I was kiddin'...Good kiddin' generally cuts both ways!!

Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #349 on: August 30, 2011, 11:56:34 AM »
Quote
Which is why I said I was kiddin'...Good kiddin' generally cuts both ways!!

Which it did, thanks. I dont get too many good laughs here at work :)

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Offline recent convert

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #350 on: August 30, 2011, 11:59:49 AM »
My words are strongly delivered but I was not pushing back at you personally.. ...  (elmjr #346) ... ...I did not think they were, I was just worried that i had misrepresented St. Ignatius Brianchaninov .
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 12:01:00 PM by recent convert »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #351 on: August 30, 2011, 12:02:03 PM »
My words are strongly delivered but I was not pushing back at you personally.. ...  (elmjr #346) ... ...I did not think they were, I was just worried that i had misrepresented St. Ignatius Brianchaninov .

OK

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #352 on: August 30, 2011, 01:20:42 PM »
Things can get confusing for us ordinary lay types. I remember reading an overview of Thomas A Kempis': Imitation of Christ on a Catholic site & his work struck me as probably one that could be beneficial for any Christian & although I have not read it, my understanding was to agree (& that is how I feel personally about it too). Then I read that St. Ignatius Brinchaninov says this work is an expression of prelest so I think, "ok, just leave it alone but feel no need to judge it" (& still feel that way).

The sacred heart concept never seemed to even occur in Orthodoxy from where I understand it developed from the vision of a late 17th c. Catholic Nun and personally to me it does not seem deluded or anything but it does not seem like something done within Orthopraxis. So again, I think "no need to criticise it, judge it, etc. just let it be since it is outside the church (right???)" well maybe not?

So I guess I can leave it alone, keep a sunny dispostion towards it, & add to my personal bewilderement file & not worry about it.   ;)

I think this is a wonderful attitude.

Though your history of the devotion is foreshortened by many hundreds of years.  That is a tactic used to make the devotion look like hysterical female dementia at work...and thus the devotion is a product of such dementia.  It is an old marxist feminist trick picked up by some Orthodox critics of the Roman Catholic Religious Organization...or Vaticanists...pick your choice.

Also Poor Old Tom a Kempis was most likely NOT filled with prelest.  I won't read st. I. Brianchianinov on account of his own tendencies toward spiritual bloat... :)  He should have taken your attitude to heart and stuck to his own knittin'

M.
I just want to clarify that I was not linking St. Ignatius Brianchaninov to the account of  the 17th c. nun whose vision allegedly confirmed the sacred heart that was supposedly devoted to for generations previous (no disrepect intended I just cannot affirm or deny these) and was making a comparison between 2 different matters outside the OC. The account of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov reaction to Kempis & the current casual acceptance of the sacred heart. Again, I try to remain cautious, a little confused, but definitely not stressed in any way. God bless.

My words are strongly delivered but I was not pushing back at you personally. 

I think you are wise.  There should be no "casual" acceptance of any part of revealed truth!!
what about a casual acceptance of an unrevealed lie?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #353 on: August 30, 2011, 01:24:35 PM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
Yeah, while one can respect this practice among RCs as Christian sincerity it seems deeply problematic within Orthodoxy.

I'm skeptical. Yesterday after Liturgy I went to our parish bookstore which has a few copies of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book for sale (I go to an Eastern Rite Church by the way) and I reviewed the contents and the prayer book contains devotions to the Sacred Heart. It is an Orthodox Western Rite prayer book, edited by an Antiochian Orthodox priest in my city (from an Eastern Rite church). He has done this with the blessings of his bishops so if our hierarchs bless it, it must be ok.
I think it is best  to avoid it. Again, I mean no denigration of  piety within the RCC.

You think its best. However, our Bishops don't seem to have a problem with it.

I understand that the bishops dont have a problem with it. I just find it very disturbing. Is that wrong?
That it is disturbing, yes. That you find it disturbing, no.  That an Orthodox bishop would find nothing disturbing about it, that's a disturbing problem.
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Offline primuspilus

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« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 01:29:43 PM by primuspilus »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #355 on: August 30, 2011, 04:23:53 PM »
That it is disturbing, yes. That you find it disturbing, no.  That an Orthodox bishop would find nothing disturbing about it, that's a disturbing problem.
That is disturbing  ;)

PP

It is not at all disturbing to me.  I think it is a good idea for Orthodox bishops to correct the excesses of the laity, like Isa.  Once we have resumed communion there will be even more corrections on both sides.  I don't expect Isa to agree with any of it... :laugh:

M.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #356 on: August 30, 2011, 04:56:51 PM »
Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP

I'll try this again in case you missed it.

From a booklet I was given by Sister Julia my 3rd Grade religion teacher, (you have to imagine simple drawings accompanying the words):

"A Heart means Love.
Two hearts together mean friendship.
The best friend in all the world is Jesus.  He is better than any friend who ever was or ever will be.
He always listens.  He always understands.  He always cares.  
He is never too busy.  He never grows tired.  He never goes away.
The Heart of Jesus is all burning with love for people: for you, for me, for everybody.  
That is why it is surrounded by flames.
To save us from sin and to reopen Heaven for us, so that we might be happy, Jesus gladly suffered and died on the Cross.
That is wht there is a Cross on His Heart.
To show us that He was not keeping anything for Himself, not even one drop of blood, He let His Heart be pierced by a lance.
That is why there is a big wound in His Sacred Heart.
There never was and there never will be anyone who loves us as much as Jesus loves us.
But there are people who forget these things.
They turn their backs on Jesus.  They never talk to Jesus.  They never do things to please Jesus.
This is ingratitude.  It is a black, cruel crown of thorns all around the Heart of Jesus.
Behold the Heart that has loved people so much that it has exhausted itself to prove its love,
and in return most people give it only ingratitude.
Jesus!  Look!
I do not want to be ungratefull.  I love you.
I want to think of You and talk to You and do things to please you always,
so that my heart will be close to your Heart and we will be friends.
Always."

And even at eight years old I understood the Sacred Heart was a symbol for Christ and His divine love for us, not a seperated piece of him.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 04:59:03 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #357 on: August 30, 2011, 05:06:26 PM »
Good background and explanation:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htm
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #358 on: August 30, 2011, 05:22:49 PM »
I had an equally troubled reaction to the 'news' from one of my cousins that said I was related to an RC saint canonized for founding the "Society of the Sacred Heart" in the mid-19th century.  You never know what your genealogist will dig up.  I was really hoping for a martyr, but my ancestors had a habit of surviving wars...  ;)

Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #359 on: August 30, 2011, 06:02:31 PM »
I had an equally troubled reaction to the 'news' from one of my cousins that said I was related to an RC saint canonized for founding the "Society of the Sacred Heart" in the mid-19th century.  You never know what your genealogist will dig up.  I was really hoping for a martyr, but my ancestors had a habit of surviving wars...  ;)

Sacred Heart has always seemed creepy to me...I dunno.....

PP

St. Madeleine Sophie Barat in 1800

I think it is: meet

 :)