Author Topic: The Sacred Heart  (Read 75676 times)

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Offline biro

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #225 on: August 23, 2011, 09:50:27 PM »
If you use the image of the heart as a metaphor for love, as many artists and writers have, why not? Nothing could be stronger or better than Jesus' love for us.

It is no accident or coincidence that the image of the heart of Christ has never been used as an Orthodox icon. This alone should make one pause.

There is a practice, in Sicily, and I read that this predates the Schism. People would leave mementos at a shrine in honor of a saint, as a thanksgiving, if you had been cured after that saint's intercessions. Often these would take the form of a model of your feet, for instance, if a foot injury were cured, or your hand if it was that, etc.

Oh, and if there's no veneration of 'body parts' in the Orthodox Church, why did I go to church on the Feast of the Finding of the Head of St. John the Forerunner? Why is he shown in icons as carrying his head on that platter? Why is St. Lucia shown carrying her eyes on a plate?

 :)

Forgot those, didn't you?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:50:51 PM by biro »
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #226 on: August 23, 2011, 09:53:01 PM »
I'm just saying, both the EO and the RCC popular piety have the for all practical purposes the same gory fixations and I find it sad that Father Ambrose keeps bending over backwards to pretend there is a significant aesthetic difference.

There IS indeed a significant aesthetic difference.   I don't have to bend over backwards at all.  I hope that LBK will chime in here and show you that Orthodoxy and our iconographers deliberately keep the gore out of our art. 

Quote
Admittedly, I probably shouldn't be picking at this though since it really has nothing to do with the Traditional-ness of the Sacred Heart. Like biro, I'm just sick of all the chest beating is all.

It's not chest beating to speak truly.   Here is something from Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Church":

The west, so it seems to them, tends to think of the Crucifixion in
isolation, separating it too sharply from the Resurrection. As a result the vision of Christ as a suffering
God is in practice replaced by the picture of Christ’s suffering humanity: the western worshipper,
when he meditates upon the Cross, is encouraged all too often to feel a morbid sympathy
with the Man of Sorrows, rather than to adore the victorious and triumphant king.

Orthodox feel
thoroughly at home in the language of the great Latin hymn by Venantius Fortunatus (530-609),
Pange lingua, which hails the Cross as an emblem of victory:

Sing, my tongue, the glorious battle,
Sing the ending of the fray;
Now above the Cross, our trophy,
Sound the loud triumphal lay:
Tell how Christ, the world’s redeemer,
As a victim won the day.

They feel equally at home in that other hymn by Fortunatus, Vexilla regis:

Fulfilled is all that David told
In true prophetic song of old:
Among the nations God, said he,
Hath reigned and triumphed from the Tree.

But Orthodox feel less happy about compositions of the later Middle Ages such as Stabat Mater:

For his people’s sins, in anguish,
There she saw the victim languish,
Bleed in torments, bleed and die:
Saw the Lord’s anointed taken;
Saw her Child in death forsaken;
Heard his last expiring cry.

It is significant that Stabat Mater, in the course of its sixty lines, makes not a single reference to
the Resurrection.

Where Orthodoxy sees chiefly Christ the Victor, the late medieval and post-medieval west
sees chiefly Christ the Victim. While Orthodoxy interprets the Crucifixion primarily as an act of
triumphant victory over the powers of evil, the west particularly since the time of Anselm of
Canterbury (?1033-1109) — has tended rather to think of the Cross in penal and juridical terms,
as an act of satisfaction or substitution designed to propitiate the wrath of an angry Father.

Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

Offline biro

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #227 on: August 23, 2011, 09:54:50 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

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Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #228 on: August 23, 2011, 09:57:36 PM »
Quote
Oh, and if there's no veneration of 'body parts' in the Orthodox Church, why did I go to church on the Feast of the Finding of the Head of St. John the Forerunner? Why is he shown in icons as carrying his head on that platter? Why is St. Lucia shown carrying her eyes on a plate?

There are many feasts of saints dedicated to the finding of their holy relics, or their translation from one place to another. Where is the relic of the heart of Jesus?

The votive plaques are just that: tokens of supplication, or prayers answered. These plaques are not venerated in ther own right. Try again, biro.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 10:08:43 PM by LBK »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #229 on: August 23, 2011, 10:00:17 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Last time I experience Great and Holy Friday, nobody chanted "Christ is Risen..."

Maybe it was vagante Orthodoxy...dunno...

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #230 on: August 23, 2011, 10:03:46 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Yes, we do.

A repeated refrain in the Holy Friday Services:

We worship Thy passion, O Christ, reveal to us also Thy holy Resurrection.

Offline biro

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #231 on: August 23, 2011, 10:07:21 PM »
So venerating a representation of a human carrying his head or her eyes is okay, but even though Jesus was fully human and fully divine, we can't venerate a picture of His heart... interesting.  ??? If you say so. I did a lot of praying in front of a picture of the Holy Napkin when I was a kid, and it'd be a shame if that time was wasted.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

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Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #232 on: August 23, 2011, 10:07:49 PM »
Quote
I hope that LBK will chime in here and show you that Orthodoxy and our iconographers deliberately keep the gore out of our art.

I have already touched on this, Father, though I can elaborate further if need be. I might also add that the phenomenon of stigmata is recorded numerous times within the tradition of the RCC, but absent in Orthodox tradition. Again, food for thought.  

Quote
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Indeed we do, biro. Yet, even during the Matins of Holy Saturday, sung on Great Friday evening, which commemorates the burial of Christ, the "lowest" point of the Passion, there are, even then, glimpses of the hope, anticipation and unimaginable joy of the coming Resurrection. This verse is particularly evocative and illustrative:

O my Son and my God, though I am wounded to the core and torn to the heart as I see You dead, yet confident in Your Resurrection, I magnify You.
Like I said previously: it's a matter of balance.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #233 on: August 23, 2011, 10:11:01 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Yes, we do.

A repeated refrain in the Holy Friday Services:

We worship Thy passion, O Christ, reveal to us also Thy holy Resurrection.

Are you suggesting that the Roman rite does not anticipate the Resurrection on the Third Day?...because if you are then you are either ignorant or malicious...

You make far too much out of this putative "difference"...

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #234 on: August 23, 2011, 10:17:53 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Yes, we do.

A repeated refrain in the Holy Friday Services:

We worship Thy passion, O Christ, reveal to us also Thy holy Resurrection.

Are you suggesting that the Roman rite does not anticipate the Resurrection on the Third Day?...because if you are then you are either ignorant or malicious...

Is it crazy hour in America?  Here I have Biro accusing me of unspeakable hatred for Catholics and now you're chiming in with unfounded suggestions of malice.

Quote
You make far too much out of this putative "difference"...

I am sure you know that there are one or two monographs in learned publications addressing this difference.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #235 on: August 23, 2011, 10:29:03 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Yes, we do.

A repeated refrain in the Holy Friday Services:

We worship Thy passion, O Christ, reveal to us also Thy holy Resurrection.

Are you suggesting that the Roman rite does not anticipate the Resurrection on the Third Day?...because if you are then you are either ignorant or malicious...

Is it crazy hour in America?  Here I have Biro accusing me of unspeakable hatred for Catholics and now you're chiming in with unfounded suggestions of malice.

Quote
You make far too much out of this putative "difference"...

I am sure you know that there are one or two monographs in learned publications addressing this difference.

Soon there will be some dozen or so articles and monographs in learned journals and publications that advocate the healthy aspects of 'child-love'...which will then turn the Catholic sex scandals into healthy expressions of natural inclinations in all of us, whether we know it or not.  People who have collected millions from the Church may well be asked to give it back...particularly since many of those cases that have been settled were consensual...save for the age of the young person in question.

I guess I should tell you what I think of many learned venues: but I don't want to be moderated...again.

M.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #236 on: August 23, 2011, 10:32:27 PM »
Quote
I'm just saying, both the EO and the RCC popular piety have the for all practical purposes the same gory fixations

This is not at all true. Never has there been any Orthodox veneration of the heart of Jesus. Never have lurid statues or paintings of the passion of Christ ever been part of Orthodox devotion. Icons of the crucifixion, at least those predating the 17th century, are distinguished by their dispassion, lack of gore, and their expression of the Divine Man, Theanthropos, willingly giving Himself up and enduring crucifixion for the salvation of the human race. Less has always been more, and is the hallmark of good iconography. The Isenheim Altarpiece is an impressive and evocative work of art, but it is not an icon.

Similarly, Orthodox hymnography maintains the balance between the human Jesus and the divine Christ. His suffering is not absent, but it is not overemphasised at the expense of His divinity. And it is beyond question that Orthodoxy has always placed the Resurrection in its rightful place.
*sigh* Maybe you're right.

I'm just wasting time here, either way, I think. I'm bugging out of this thread.
I do stuff.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #237 on: August 23, 2011, 10:33:21 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Yes, we do.

A repeated refrain in the Holy Friday Services:

We worship Thy passion, O Christ, reveal to us also Thy holy Resurrection.

Are you suggesting that the Roman rite does not anticipate the Resurrection on the Third Day?...because if you are then you are either ignorant or malicious...

Is it crazy hour in America?  Here I have Biro accusing me of unspeakable hatred for Catholics and now you're chiming in with unfounded suggestions of malice.

Quote
You make far too much out of this putative "difference"...

I am sure you know that there are one or two monographs in learned publications addressing this difference.

Just so you cannot plead ignorance next time.  From the Catholic Good Friday liturgy: Note the Collect at the bottom of the Litany:

Quote
A LITANY FOR GOOD FRIDAY

Is it nothing to you, all you that pass by?
Look and see if there is any sorrow like my sorrow. [Lamentations l:12]

The Lord says:
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I led you from slavery to freedom,
but you led your Saviour to the cross.
I brought you out of Egypt,
but you handed me over to the high priests.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I led you on your way in a pillar of cloud,
but you led me to Pilate's court.
I bore you up with manna in the desert,
but you struck me down and scourged me.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I gave you a royal scepter,
but you gave me a crown of thorns.
I raised you to the height of majesty,
but you have raised me high on a cross.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I gave you saving water from the rock,
but you gave me gall and vinegar to drink.
For you I struck down the kings of Canaan,
but you pierced your Saviour with a lance.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
We adore you, O Christ, and we bless you.
By your holy cross you have redeemed the world.
If we have died with him, we shall also live with him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with him.
We adore you, O Christ, and we bless you.
By your holy cross you have redeemed the world.
[`A Litany for Good Friday' from Uniting in Worship, adapted from the Reproaches for Good Friday, Missal of the Roman Catholic Church.]

COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #238 on: August 23, 2011, 10:40:37 PM »
Why is the Stabat Mater a problem? On Great Friday, don't we all mourn the Crucifixion?

Yes, we do.

A repeated refrain in the Holy Friday Services:

We worship Thy passion, O Christ, reveal to us also Thy holy Resurrection.

Are you suggesting that the Roman rite does not anticipate the Resurrection on the Third Day?...because if you are then you are either ignorant or malicious...

Is it crazy hour in America?  Here I have Biro accusing me of unspeakable hatred for Catholics and now you're chiming in with unfounded suggestions of malice.

Quote
You make far too much out of this putative "difference"...

I am sure you know that there are one or two monographs in learned publications addressing this difference.

Soon there will be some dozen or so articles and monographs in learned journals and publications that advocate the healthy aspects of 'child-love'...which will then turn the Catholic sex scandals into healthy expressions of natural inclinations in all of us, whether we know it or not.  People who have collected millions from the Church may well be asked to give it back...particularly since many of those cases that have been settled were consensual...save for the age of the young person in question.

I guess I should tell you what I think of many learned venues: but I don't want to be moderated...again.

M.

So because Roman Catholics are going through a period of sex scandals. all of a sudden learned journals are suspect?!!.  Didn't I assist you in finding a learned article in a learned journal by Archbishop Basil Krivoshein on Gregory Palamas?  Pshaw, Maria!  Some moderation please.

Offline Melodist

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #239 on: August 24, 2011, 08:50:14 AM »
But this does nothing for me...



I can see how that particular image would be out of line. Also I'm not advocating following after visions, promises, or indulgences. There are more traditional ways of showing Christ's Heart as the source of His love and compassion for us that do not seperate it from His person as a whole.



And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #240 on: August 24, 2011, 08:55:37 AM »
The last two images are not icons.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #241 on: August 24, 2011, 08:59:01 AM »
The last two images are not icons.

I never said they were.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #242 on: August 24, 2011, 09:01:01 AM »
The last two images are not icons.

I never said they were.

Just making sure.  ;) ;D
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #243 on: August 24, 2011, 09:07:19 AM »


Dear Melodist,

This picture comes Monastery Icons.   Very few, if any, priests will bless icons from this source and they recommend that they be burnt.

See this article "A Word About 'Monastery Icons'"
by Fr. Anthony Nelson
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #244 on: August 24, 2011, 10:09:43 AM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:

A LITANY FOR GOOD FRIDAY

Is it nothing to you, all you that pass by?
Look and see if there is any sorrow like my sorrow. [Lamentations l:12]

The Lord says:
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I led you from slavery to freedom,
but you led your Saviour to the cross.
I brought you out of Egypt,
but you handed me over to the high priests.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I led you on your way in a pillar of cloud,
but you led me to Pilate's court.
I bore you up with manna in the desert,
but you struck me down and scourged me.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I gave you a royal scepter,
but you gave me a crown of thorns.
I raised you to the height of majesty,
but you have raised me high on a cross.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!
I gave you saving water from the rock,
but you gave me gall and vinegar to drink.
For you I struck down the kings of Canaan,
but you pierced your Saviour with a lance.
Holy God,
holy and mighty, holy and immortal One,
have mercy on us.
We adore you, O Christ, and we bless you.
By your holy cross you have redeemed the world.
If we have died with him, we shall also live with him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with him.
We adore you, O Christ, and we bless you.
By your holy cross you have redeemed the world.
[`A Litany for Good Friday' from Uniting in Worship, adapted from the Reproaches for Good Friday, Missal of the Roman Catholic Church.]

COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #245 on: August 24, 2011, 11:07:37 AM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #246 on: August 24, 2011, 11:16:52 AM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

This Collect: thank you very much: comes out of my childhood missal, given to me by my Irish Catholic grandmother, that dates to before the turn of the last century...as its LATEST publication reprint date.

Perhaps your "scholars" didn't have an Irish Catholic gran to give them their lessons in Catholic liturgy!!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 11:18:30 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #247 on: August 24, 2011, 11:22:18 AM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

This Collect: thank you very much: comes out of my childhood missal, given to me by my Irish Catholic grandmother, that dates to before the turn of the last century...as its LATEST publication reprint date.

Thank you.  I wondered about its age and how widely it is used.  I have a few Missals which go up to the 1960s and I'll look for it (although the Passion Week services underwent revision in the 1950s.)

I am a little surprised to see no thee's and thou's and no "liveth and reigneth" in your childhood missal?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 11:27:15 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #248 on: August 24, 2011, 11:22:57 AM »
The presence of the mention of the Resurrection in the collect is good to see, yet many RC churches are replete with graphic images and statues of the Passion which are in stark contrast to Orthodox iconography which expresses the Passion in very different terms.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #249 on: August 24, 2011, 11:28:23 AM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

This Collect: thank you very much: comes out of my childhood missal, given to me by my Irish Catholic grandmother, that dates to before the turn of the last century...as its LATEST publication reprint date.

Thank you.  I wondered about its age and how widely it is used.  I have a few Missals which go up to the 1960s and I'll look for it (although the Passion Week services underwent revision in the 1950s.)

References to the resurrection can also be found in my monastic diurnal [pre-mid-20th century] and that diurnal was one that was used in my family by those who prayed the daily hours.

Don't forget that many Catholics prayed the hours, particularly during Lent and Holy Week...pre-Vatican II.  The numbers of those who do today have risen commensurately with the rise in numbers of third order members of the various orders: Benedictine, Carmelite, Dominican, Franciscan.   So that in all the time that you are telling us about what the "scholars" say:: there are real lived experiences of the liturgy that allow me and others like me to smile at you and the learned LBK and say:: BUNK-O DIDDLY 'i O

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #250 on: August 24, 2011, 11:32:48 AM »
If you use the image of the heart as a metaphor for love, as many artists and writers have, why not? Nothing could be stronger or better than Jesus' love for us.

It is no accident or coincidence that the image of the heart of Christ has never been used as an Orthodox icon. This alone should make one pause.

There is a practice, in Sicily, and I read that this predates the Schism. People would leave mementos at a shrine in honor of a saint, as a thanksgiving, if you had been cured after that saint's intercessions. Often these would take the form of a model of your feet, for instance, if a foot injury were cured, or your hand if it was that, etc.

Oh, and if there's no veneration of 'body parts' in the Orthodox Church, why did I go to church on the Feast of the Finding of the Head of St. John the Forerunner? Why is he shown in icons as carrying his head on that platter? Why is St. Lucia shown carrying her eyes on a plate?

 :)

Forgot those, didn't you?
No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.

Nor did Christ ever pull open His chest to give the Apostles a look inside. Only to some 17th century nun off in France. (reminds me, btw, of the Muslim story of Gabriel opening up Muhammads chest and taking the organs out and washing them, one by one).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #251 on: August 24, 2011, 11:38:02 AM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

This Collect: thank you very much: comes out of my childhood missal, given to me by my Irish Catholic grandmother, that dates to before the turn of the last century...as its LATEST publication reprint date.

Thank you.  I wondered about its age and how widely it is used.  I have a few Missals which go up to the 1960s and I'll look for it (although the Passion Week services underwent revision in the 1950s.)

I am a little surprised to see no thee's and thou's and no "liveth and reigneth" in your childhood missal?
Yes, rather odd. ::) What was that publication info again?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #252 on: August 24, 2011, 11:45:21 AM »

No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.


We do have such icons in the Russian Church (attachment below)

We also have feast days for the head's first, second and third findings. 

From the service for the third finding of the head:

Troparion (Tone 4)
As a divine treasure hidden in the ground
Was your head revealed to us by Christ, O prophet and forerunner.
We have gathered in commemoration of this finding
With inspired hymns of praise to the Savior,
Who saves us from corruption through your prayers!

Kontakion (Tone 4)
By giving your venerable head to a sinful woman,
Herod broke the law of God.
But we behold it and cry out for joy,
And say to you, O forerunner:
Pray to the Lord that He may grant mercy to us all!


Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #253 on: August 24, 2011, 11:51:03 AM »
Thank you Father.  I was just about to post, but it comes better from you.


No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.


We do have such icons in the Russian Church (attachment below)

We also have feast days for the head's first, second and third findings. 

From the service for the third finding of the head:

Troparion (Tone 4)
As a divine treasure hidden in the ground
Was your head revealed to us by Christ, O prophet and forerunner.
We have gathered in commemoration of this finding
With inspired hymns of praise to the Savior,
Who saves us from corruption through your prayers!

Kontakion (Tone 4)
By giving your venerable head to a sinful woman,
Herod broke the law of God.
But we behold it and cry out for joy,
And say to you, O forerunner:
Pray to the Lord that He may grant mercy to us all!



Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #254 on: August 24, 2011, 12:10:26 PM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

This Collect: thank you very much: comes out of my childhood missal, given to me by my Irish Catholic grandmother, that dates to before the turn of the last century...as its LATEST publication reprint date.

Thank you.  I wondered about its age and how widely it is used.  I have a few Missals which go up to the 1960s and I'll look for it (although the Passion Week services underwent revision in the 1950s.)

I am a little surprised to see no thee's and thou's and no "liveth and reigneth" in your childhood missal?
Yes, rather odd. ::) What was that publication info again?

You really are out of your depth here, Isa. 

This is an on-line project and the text below is taken from the pre-1955 Missale:

http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/goodfri.html

COLLECT
   S. Oremus.       Priest: Let us pray.    
   V. Flectamus genua.       Deacon: Let us kneel.    
   R. Levate.       Subdeacon: Arise.    

      Deus, a quo et Iudas reatus sui poenam, et confessionis suae latro praemium sumpsit, concede novis tuae propitiationis effectum: ut sicut in passione sua Iesus Christus Dominus noster diversa utrisque intulit stipendia meritorum; ita nobis, ablato vetustatis errore, resurrectionis suae gratiam largiatur: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritu Sancti, Deus, per omnia saecula saeculorum.          

O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #255 on: August 24, 2011, 12:12:52 PM »

No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.


We do have such icons in the Russian Church (attachment below)
I'm afraid I have to classify that with this


We also have feast days for the head's first, second and third findings. 

Yes, I'm aware of that, like any feast of the invention or translation of relics.  My son has St. Theodore (Tadrus as his patron), and was born on the Feast of his translation.

From the service for the third finding of the head:

Troparion (Tone 4)
As a divine treasure hidden in the ground
Was your head revealed to us by Christ, O prophet and forerunner.
We have gathered in commemoration of this finding
With inspired hymns of praise to the Savior,
Who saves us from corruption through your prayers!

Kontakion (Tone 4)
By giving your venerable head to a sinful woman,
Herod broke the law of God.
But we behold it and cry out for joy,
And say to you, O forerunner:
Pray to the Lord that He may grant mercy to us all!
Notice that St. John, not his head, is addressed.  This is a little different:
Quote
"O Sacred Heart of Jesus,
I place my trust in Thee,"
Whatever may befall me, Lord,
Though dark the hour may be.
In all my joys, in all my woes,
Though naught but grief I see.
"O Sacred Heart of Jesus,
I place my trust in Thee."

When those I love have passed away
And I am sore distressed,
O Sacred Heart of Jesus,
I fly to Thee for rest.
In all my trials, great or small,
My confidence shall be,
Unshaken, as I cry, dear Lord,
"I place my trust in Thee."
This is my one sweet prayer, dear Lord!
My faith, my trust, my love,
But, most of all, in that last hour,
When death points up above,
Ah, then, sweet Savior, may Thy face
Smile on my soul set free.
Oh, may I cry with rapturous love,
"I've placed my trust in Thee."
http://www.catholictradition.org/Two-Hearts/sacred-heart13.htm
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #256 on: August 24, 2011, 12:26:25 PM »
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Dear Maria, I rejoiced to see this phrase on the Resurrection

"Yet these contrasts must not be pressed too far. Eastern writers, as well as western, have applied
juridical and penal language to the Crucifixion; western writers, as well as eastern, have
never ceased to think of Good Friday as a moment of victory. In the west during recent years
there has been a revival of the Patristic idea of Christus Victor, alike in theology, in spirituality,
and in art; and Orthodox are naturally very happy that this should be so."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P14.HTM#116

This Collect: thank you very much: comes out of my childhood missal, given to me by my Irish Catholic grandmother, that dates to before the turn of the last century...as its LATEST publication reprint date.

Thank you.  I wondered about its age and how widely it is used.  I have a few Missals which go up to the 1960s and I'll look for it (although the Passion Week services underwent revision in the 1950s.)

I am a little surprised to see no thee's and thou's and no "liveth and reigneth" in your childhood missal?
Yes, rather odd. ::) What was that publication info again?

You really are out of your depth here, Isa.

LOL. Hardly.  Your new source gives this:
Quote
Missale Romanum, Imprimatur by C. Eykens, Vical General of Antwerp, 24 Feb 1963.
Breviarium Romanum, Imprimatur by Caietanus Cardinal Cicognani, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, 29 May 1961.
Liber Usualis, Imprimatur by J. Thomas, Vicar General of Tornai, Belgium, 26 Oct 1961.
http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/
This is an on-line project and the text below is taken from the pre-1955 Missale:

http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/goodfri.html

COLLECT
   S. Oremus.       Priest: Let us pray.    
   V. Flectamus genua.       Deacon: Let us kneel.    
   R. Levate.       Subdeacon: Arise.    

      Deus, a quo et Iudas reatus sui poenam, et confessionis suae latro praemium sumpsit, concede novis tuae propitiationis effectum: ut sicut in passione sua Iesus Christus Dominus noster diversa utrisque intulit stipendia meritorum; ita nobis, ablato vetustatis errore, resurrectionis suae gratiam largiatur: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritu Sancti, Deus, per omnia saecula saeculorum.         

O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end.
That doesn't seem to be the same collect that you quoted from your dear Irish gran's missal:
Just in case you missed this Father Ambrose:  It is a little moderation in light of the darkness that you and LBK continue to try to shine on Catholic Liturgical prayer.  Again:  Note the Collect at the end of the Litany:
COLLECT FOR THE DAY
Almighty God, look graciously, we pray, on this your family, for whom our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and given into the hands of sinners. Grant that, through faith in him who suffered death on the cross for our salvation, we may know the power of his resurrection; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.


Btw, I don't why you don't bring up Pange lingua lauream in this context:IIRC, Bishop Kallistos, whom Fr. Ambrose quotes, did.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 12:36:01 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #257 on: August 24, 2011, 12:51:52 PM »

LOL. Hardly.  Your new source gives this:
Quote
Missale Romanum, Imprimatur by C. Eykens, Vical General of Antwerp, 24 Feb 1963.
Breviarium Romanum, Imprimatur by Caietanus Cardinal Cicognani, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, 29 May 1961.


If you look at the site's opening page he has the texts divided into pre-1955 and post-1955.  I selected the text from the pre-1955 texts for Good Friday.

I posted this because it seemed reasonable to demonstrate that these texts are actually available electronically for those who have to skills and desire to actually check their assertions.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 12:52:36 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #258 on: August 24, 2011, 01:59:51 PM »

LOL. Hardly.  Your new source gives this:
Quote
Missale Romanum, Imprimatur by C. Eykens, Vical General of Antwerp, 24 Feb 1963.
Breviarium Romanum, Imprimatur by Caietanus Cardinal Cicognani, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, 29 May 1961.

If you look at the site's opening page

you mean this page?
http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/

he has the texts divided into pre-1955 and post-1955.
 
Yes. He never tells us where he gets those pre-1955 texts from,
Quote
This, therefore, is the reason for this project: to provide the texts of the Proper of Seasons and Proper of the Saints to those faithful Catholics who wish a greater understanding of the beauty of the old Latin Mass. The sources for this page include the following:
judging by the imprimaturs (ah, the importance of sourcing, but then you knew that. ::)),just a hint in "Note on the Revised Ordo of Holy Week, promulgated Nov 1955" (is that pre or post 1955?) of which he provides this extract
Quote
in 1642 the Sacred Triduum was removed from the days of obligation, and the three days became officially what they had long been in practice: ordinary workdays. The beautiful solemn liturgy of Holy Week had by this time become unknown to and unappreciated by all save the clergy and a handful of the faithful. A partial remedy was sought by introducing extra-liturgical devotions each evening (Holy Hour, Three Hours, Mater Dolorosa sermon, Stations of the Cross); but these lack much of the great dignity and sacramental power and efficacy of liturgical celebrations....To bring an end to this serious loss liturgists, parish clergy, and Bishops in every part of the world have for long beseeched the Holy See to restore the liturgical actions of the Sacred Triduum...The Restored Ordo of Holy Week was published in November 1955...
http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/holyweek.html

I selected the text from the pre-1955 texts for Good Friday.
That's nice, but you still haven't given the authoritative source of where he got it. Something like this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1yxFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=Deus,+a+quo+et+Iudas+reatus+sui+poenam,+et+confessionis+suae+latro+praemium+sumpsit,+concede+novis+tuae+propitiationis+effectum:+ut+sicut+in+passione+sua+Iesus+Christus+Dominus+noster+diversa+utrisque+intulit+stipendia+meritorum;+ita+nobis,+ablato+vetustatis+errore,+resurrectionis+suae+gratiam+largiatur:+Qui+tecum+vivit+et+regnat+in+unitate+Spiritu+Sancti,+Deus,+per+omnia+saecula+saeculorum.&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

or this
http://books.google.com/books?id=JHpCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=missal+resurrectionis+suae+gratiam+largiatur&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

I posted this because it seemed reasonable to demonstrate that these texts are actually available electronically for those who have to skills and desire to actually check their assertions.
Such as the collect you cited from your Irish grandmother's missal, which you seem to coveniently forgotten was the OP, and have substituted here?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #259 on: August 24, 2011, 02:34:12 PM »
I have, as does Father Ambrose, several missals here.  They are all pre-1955.  The texts are the same or quite similar to the one I quoted here as are the texts from the monastic diurnal that is also pre-1955...and the Missale Romanum is also available on-line in pdf format and the text there is also similar and the same as others.

I don't owe you or anyone else here more than that. 

It is what it is.  You people are way out of line in your understanding of Catholic liturgy, teaching and piety.

You have to resort to this kind of nonsense to make "points"....

Have at it.


LOL. Hardly.  Your new source gives this:
Quote
Missale Romanum, Imprimatur by C. Eykens, Vical General of Antwerp, 24 Feb 1963.
Breviarium Romanum, Imprimatur by Caietanus Cardinal Cicognani, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, 29 May 1961.

If you look at the site's opening page

you mean this page?
http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/

he has the texts divided into pre-1955 and post-1955.
 
Yes. He never tells us where he gets those pre-1955 texts from,
Quote
This, therefore, is the reason for this project: to provide the texts of the Proper of Seasons and Proper of the Saints to those faithful Catholics who wish a greater understanding of the beauty of the old Latin Mass. The sources for this page include the following:
judging by the imprimaturs (ah, the importance of sourcing, but then you knew that. ::)),just a hint in "Note on the Revised Ordo of Holy Week, promulgated Nov 1955" (is that pre or post 1955?) of which he provides this extract
Quote
in 1642 the Sacred Triduum was removed from the days of obligation, and the three days became officially what they had long been in practice: ordinary workdays. The beautiful solemn liturgy of Holy Week had by this time become unknown to and unappreciated by all save the clergy and a handful of the faithful. A partial remedy was sought by introducing extra-liturgical devotions each evening (Holy Hour, Three Hours, Mater Dolorosa sermon, Stations of the Cross); but these lack much of the great dignity and sacramental power and efficacy of liturgical celebrations....To bring an end to this serious loss liturgists, parish clergy, and Bishops in every part of the world have for long beseeched the Holy See to restore the liturgical actions of the Sacred Triduum...The Restored Ordo of Holy Week was published in November 1955...
http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/holyweek.html

I selected the text from the pre-1955 texts for Good Friday.
That's nice, but you still haven't given the authoritative source of where he got it. Something like this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1yxFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=Deus,+a+quo+et+Iudas+reatus+sui+poenam,+et+confessionis+suae+latro+praemium+sumpsit,+concede+novis+tuae+propitiationis+effectum:+ut+sicut+in+passione+sua+Iesus+Christus+Dominus+noster+diversa+utrisque+intulit+stipendia+meritorum;+ita+nobis,+ablato+vetustatis+errore,+resurrectionis+suae+gratiam+largiatur:+Qui+tecum+vivit+et+regnat+in+unitate+Spiritu+Sancti,+Deus,+per+omnia+saecula+saeculorum.&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

or this
http://books.google.com/books?id=JHpCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=missal+resurrectionis+suae+gratiam+largiatur&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

I posted this because it seemed reasonable to demonstrate that these texts are actually available electronically for those who have to skills and desire to actually check their assertions.
Such as the collect you cited from your Irish grandmother's missal, which you seem to coveniently forgotten was the OP, and have substituted here?

Offline Schultz

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #260 on: August 24, 2011, 03:03:24 PM »
Isa, the simple fact remains is that the Latin in the Missal notes the Resurrection and beseeches the Lord to allow us to witness the power of it.

You're now quibbling over translations and interpretations when, at the outset, this was about the West "ignoring" the Resurrection in lieu of the Crucifixion. 

If you want to continue this little tete-a-tete with elijahmaria, do it on the thread set aside for such bickering.  Do it here and get warned.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #261 on: August 24, 2011, 04:58:08 PM »

No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.


We do have such icons in the Russian Church (attachment below)
I'm afraid I have to classify that with this

Well, I suppose you may classify it any way you like but the fact is that the Russian Church has icons of the head of Saint John the Baptist.   We have one here in our parish church, 18th century.  Are they not known among the brethren of the Arab-Greek tradition?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #262 on: August 24, 2011, 05:25:15 PM »
Isa, the simple fact remains is that the Latin in the Missal notes the Resurrection and beseeches the Lord to allow us to witness the power of it.

You're now quibbling over translations and interpretations when, at the outset, this was about the West "ignoring" the Resurrection in lieu of the Crucifixion. 

If you want to continue this little tete-a-tete with elijahmaria, do it on the thread set aside for such bickering.  Do it here and get warned.
done
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37983.msg627932/topicseen.html#msg627932
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #263 on: August 24, 2011, 05:32:43 PM »
Is it crazy hour in America?  Here I have Biro accusing me of unspeakable hatred for Catholics and now you're chiming in with unfounded suggestions of malice.

But Father Ambrose, I'm not so sure you understand. It's always crazy hour in America. ;)


No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.


We do have such icons in the Russian Church (attachment below)
I'm afraid I have to classify that with this

Well, I suppose you may classify it any way you like but the fact is that the Russian Church has icons of the head of Saint John the Baptist.   We have one here in our parish church, 18th century.  Are they not known among the brethren of the Arab-Greek tradition?


I don't think I've seen an icon of just the head of Saint John the Baptist. The closest I've ever seen were icons celebrating the finding of the head of Saint John the Baptist. There is a Greek iconographer at my parish who might be able to give me an answer, if I can manage to track him down.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #264 on: August 24, 2011, 05:40:04 PM »

No.  Unlike the sacred heart, the head of St. John is never in an icon itself, nor is there a feast day for his head: it is his feast day. Nor do I recall a hymnography to his head.


We do have such icons in the Russian Church (attachment below)
I'm afraid I have to classify that with this

Well, I suppose you may classify it any way you like but the fact is that the Russian Church has icons of the head of Saint John the Baptist.
And icons of God the Father, Baby Jesus with His Father rather than His mother, and the Grandfather-Man/Boy-Dove Trinity.  All pretty much equal AFAIK.

But whether something should exist is a different question as to whether it exists, so I have to concede your point, Father-in particular as the Russian Church is only a Church but a leading one-and offer my apology to biro.

We have one here in our parish church, 18th century.  Are they not known among the brethren of the Arab-Greek tradition?
Not really.  Now that you mention it, I think I recall seeing a couple in Greece, one I think in the Church of the Resurrection Treasury IIRC, and one perhaps in the St. Nicholas Cathedral in Cairo next to al-Azhar, but I wouldn't stake my life on it.  I would stake my life on it, that all of them dated from the period of the Western Cativity.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #265 on: August 24, 2011, 05:51:45 PM »
Quote
this was about the West "ignoring" the Resurrection in lieu of the Crucifixion.

I did not say the west ignored the Resurrection, I said it underemphasised it relative to the Crucifixion. I also said that its religious art overemphasised the physical suffering of Christ, as evident by the religious art (statues and paintings) depicting scenes or stages of the Passion of Christ.

By contrast, the Orthodox approach, in both hymnography and in iconography, strikes a balance between the suffering humanity of Christ, and His divine power and omnipotence. We do not see a ravaged corpse on the Cross, but the God-Man willingly enduring death in His love for mankind. Even in the reading of the Twelve Passion Gospels, the reading of Luke's graphic account of Christ's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane is not one of them.

Food for thought.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #266 on: August 24, 2011, 06:03:41 PM »
On icons of the head of St John the Baptist:

I have only encountered such of Russian provenance, not of Greek or others, and they do appear to date no earlier than about the 17th century.  Icons of the feast of the Beheading of St John the Baptist should show him kneeling, arms raised in supplication to God, with the executioner standing behind him, sword raised. Herod's daugher Salome might also be present, holding the platter which is to receive the head. There are also (more recent) icons (largely of Greek provenance) showing the Baptist holding his head on a platter, but he is still shown bodily, not simply as a disembodied head.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #267 on: August 24, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »
Okay then. Thank you.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #268 on: August 24, 2011, 06:58:36 PM »
Quote
this was about the West "ignoring" the Resurrection in lieu of the Crucifixion.

I did not say the west ignored the Resurrection, I said it underemphasised it relative to the Crucifixion. I also said that its religious art overemphasised the physical suffering of Christ, as evident by the religious art (statues and paintings) depicting scenes or stages of the Passion of Christ.

By contrast, the Orthodox approach, in both hymnography and in iconography, strikes a balance between the suffering humanity of Christ, and His divine power and omnipotence. We do not see a ravaged corpse on the Cross, but the God-Man willingly enduring death in His love for mankind. Even in the reading of the Twelve Passion Gospels, the reading of Luke's graphic account of Christ's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane is not one of them.

Food for thought.

Fair enough, but my main point (and directive about the subsequent bickering) still stands. 

(FWIW, I agree with you, for the most part, about the lack of balance in the West) :)
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #269 on: August 24, 2011, 07:06:32 PM »
Quote
this was about the West "ignoring" the Resurrection in lieu of the Crucifixion.

I did not say the west ignored the Resurrection, I said it underemphasised it relative to the Crucifixion. I also said that its religious art overemphasised the physical suffering of Christ, as evident by the religious art (statues and paintings) depicting scenes or stages of the Passion of Christ.

By contrast, the Orthodox approach, in both hymnography and in iconography, strikes a balance between the suffering humanity of Christ, and His divine power and omnipotence. We do not see a ravaged corpse on the Cross, but the God-Man willingly enduring death in His love for mankind. Even in the reading of the Twelve Passion Gospels, the reading of Luke's graphic account of Christ's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane is not one of them.

Food for thought.

Fair enough, but my main point (and directive about the subsequent bickering) still stands. 

(FWIW, I agree with you, for the most part, about the lack of balance in the West) :)

I don't see it in real parish life at all.  I see it in pockets of the universal Church in the world but in the main there is a clear balance in the liturgy that transcends local habits...or should...did...does in many places...might again in other places...etc.

Where I really see the imbalance is in Orthodoxy writing about Catholic piety and here on the Internet.  Most of the really bloody Sacred Heart images don't make it to the book stores... ;)

Also on a related note, it seems to me that many Orthodox both writing for a print to paper media audience and here on the internet can't seem to differentiate between Catholic piety and Catholic spirituality.  There is a HUGE difference.  Catholic spirituality is liturgical and scriptural at its core, and depends on the Tradition of the Holy Fathers, saints and doctors of the Church.  Catholic piety is more often para-liturgical and sentimental, by design.  I often wonder if such a differentiation can be made in Orthodoxy.   Father Ambrose keeps writing that little squib about Toll Houses as something the peasants might do, but I don't see any peasants in Orthodoxy...everybody seems to be much further advanced than that.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 07:12:58 PM by elijahmaria »