Author Topic: The Sacred Heart  (Read 73021 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #180 on: August 23, 2011, 10:14:13 AM »

However I am a regular reader of another group that is promoting the acceptance of active homosexuals and same sex marriage in Orthodoxy, so I don't worry too much that y'all will come out unscathed.


Oh rubbish, Elihahmaria, you old Catholic polemicist and troublemaker.  Honestly I sometimes wonder if they don't pay you to troll the Orthodox lists to try and destabilise us!  There is an ROCA priest on orthodox-forum expounding what others see as a harsh and unpastoral attitude to gays.    WHO there is advocating homosexual activity?  They are only asking for compassion...... EXACTLY what His Holiness the Russian Patriarch was asking for recently when he spoke on homosexuals.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #181 on: August 23, 2011, 10:23:05 AM »

However I am a regular reader of another group that is promoting the acceptance of active homosexuals and same sex marriage in Orthodoxy, so I don't worry too much that y'all will come out unscathed.


Oh rubbish, Elihahmaria, you old Catholic polemicist and troublemaker.  Honestly I sometimes wonder if they don't pay you to troll the Orthodox lists to try and destabilise us!  There is an ROCA priest on orthodox-forum expounding what others see as a harsh and unpastoral attitude to gays.    WHO there is advocating homosexual activity?  They are only asking for compassion...... EXACTLY what His Holiness the Russian Patriarch was asking for recently when he spoke on homosexuals.

You are missing a few things here you old post-modern feminist... :)...but in point of fact it ain't no skin off my nose but you are somewhat removed from the climate in this country and so I am happy to wait and see how far off I am when I say that the lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

M.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #182 on: August 23, 2011, 10:28:28 AM »
Liturgies aside, from what I've read of actual ROCOR WR objections to Sacred Heart, Corpus Christi, Rosary, etc., has less to do with actual theological objections and almost everything to do with their supposed origin and their date. I've engaged in this first hand and there is an adamant refusal to object to how things are actually carried out in an Orthodox context, retreating instead to irrelevant diatribes about "Roman Catholics" and what it means to them.

ROCA aside, why is the Sacred Heart rejected by the majority of your Antiochian priests?    Are they simply ignorant men who have no idea of its patristic base?

Is it rejected? I'd like to see something in writing, if you have it. I've corresponded with many Antiochian priests, and read most of the literature that has been made available (and some that hasn't) in regards to devotional/liturgical practices and I can't say that I've encountered any "rejections" as much as just...indifference.

Believe it or not, I fall into the latter category. I don't much care for the feast or the devotion, I'm just not opposed to it and recognize that it can be meaningful to many people if understood in its proper context. I'll defend it if for the simple fact that no one else around here will and lurking readers might find it beneficial to be exposed to the historical precedent for the devotion aside from "psychosexual" visions.

The attack on western women saints and mystics as psycho-sexual hysterics is a topic that I was introduced to by Women's Studies courses back when I was an arm-chair marxist, and the analysis was designed to destroy all that is good and holy about female monastic life in the west.   It is a post-modern idea and it is a sin and a shame that it is promoted on this Forum. 

However I am a regular reader of another group that is promoting the acceptance of active homosexuals and same sex marriage in Orthodoxy, so I don't worry too much that y'all will come out unscathed.

Soon those who advocate for a strict heterosexual definition of marriage will be labeled the mentally ill, and you will have to fight to prove you are not.  Good luck with that.

 :)


I think it is important to repeat that it is feminists and modernists who labeled western women religious as repressed female dementos.

I think it is exceptionally important for contemporary Orthodoxy in the United States to consider whether or not it is prudent to pick up that hammer and use it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 10:29:11 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline Melodist

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #183 on: August 23, 2011, 10:39:01 AM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.
Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about but I have one of these that was given to me by someone I once knew who brought it back as a gift from St Katherine's when she visited the holy land.

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #184 on: August 23, 2011, 11:48:11 AM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.
Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about but I have one of these that was given to me by someone I once knew who brought it back as a gift from St Katherine's when she visited the holy land.

No.  This is not the image.  I have seen it as well and there is at least one form of it somewhere on the Internet but a search [brief] this morning has failed to reveal it to me.  I hope someone finds it.

M.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #185 on: August 23, 2011, 05:34:39 PM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.
Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about but I have one of these that was given to me by someone I once knew who brought it back as a gift from St Katherine's when she visited the holy land.

No.  This is not the image.  I have seen it as well and there is at least one form of it somewhere on the Internet but a search [brief] this morning has failed to reveal it to me.  I hope someone finds it.

M.

I have been Orthodox for nearly 50 years and I cannot think of what you have in mind.  If you or Volnutt find it I would be very interested.  LBK may know?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #186 on: August 23, 2011, 05:52:35 PM »
The Sacred Prepuce is a physical object.
Oh, come now.

It was back around 4 BC. Now it's either not on earth or long decomposed.

Unless you trust the Syriac Infancy Gospel. But I'd rather not.

Things like this scandalize Christianity as a whole. And not in the "scandal of the cross" way.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 05:54:59 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #187 on: August 23, 2011, 05:57:29 PM »
The Sacred Prepuce is a physical object.
Oh, come now.

It was back around 4 BC. Now it's either not on earth or long decomposed.

Unless you trust the Syriac Infancy Gospel. But I'd rather not.

Things like this scandalize Christianity as a whole. And not in the "scandal of the cross" way.
It is truly absurd for (some) Orthodox to say that they will venerate the Sacred Prepuce, but at the same time they severely criticise the Catholic devotion to the Sacred Heart.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2011, 06:00:54 PM »
The Sacred Prepuce is a physical object.
Oh, come now.

It was back around 4 BC. Now it's either not on earth or long decomposed.

Unless you trust the Syriac Infancy Gospel. But I'd rather not.

Things like this scandalize Christianity as a whole. And not in the "scandal of the cross" way.
It is truly absurd for (some) Orthodox to say that they will venerate the Sacred Prepuce, but at the same time they severely criticise the Catholic devotion to the Sacred Heart.
The difference between venerating a divided relic on earth vs. venerating a mystical body part concept/part of Christ's glorified humanity apart from the rest has been discussed in this thread already. That said, if you believe we have a Sacred Prepuce, I seriously wonder where you get your history and belief.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 06:01:20 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #189 on: August 23, 2011, 06:09:02 PM »
The Sacred Prepuce is a physical object.
Oh, come now.

It was back around 4 BC. Now it's either not on earth or long decomposed.

Unless you trust the Syriac Infancy Gospel. But I'd rather not.

Things like this scandalize Christianity as a whole. And not in the "scandal of the cross" way.
It is truly absurd for (some) Orthodox to say that they will venerate the Sacred Prepuce, but at the same time they severely criticise the Catholic devotion to the Sacred Heart.

The Orthodox gave the Prepuce to the Catholics 1,200 years ago.  How many Orthodox have ever heard of it? 

But right throughout this thread the Catholics have been confusing the Prepuce which is a physical relic with the Sacred Heart which is nothing of the sort.

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #190 on: August 23, 2011, 06:13:32 PM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.
Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about but I have one of these that was given to me by someone I once knew who brought it back as a gift from St Katherine's when she visited the holy land.

No.  This is not the image.  I have seen it as well and there is at least one form of it somewhere on the Internet but a search [brief] this morning has failed to reveal it to me.  I hope someone finds it.

M.

I have been Orthodox for nearly 50 years and I cannot think of what you have in mind.  If you or Volnutt find it I would be very interested.  LBK may know?

LBK has never seen such an image, and is very interested in seeing one, if, indeed, it exists  ;). The closest I've seen is an angel holding a chalice to Christ's bleeding side at the Crucifixion, imagery which came to Orthodox iconography via the Venetians from Roman Catholic religious art.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Cephas

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #191 on: August 23, 2011, 06:20:06 PM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.
Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about but I have one of these that was given to me by someone I once knew who brought it back as a gift from St Katherine's when she visited the holy land.

No.  This is not the image.  I have seen it as well and there is at least one form of it somewhere on the Internet but a search [brief] this morning has failed to reveal it to me.  I hope someone finds it.

M.

I have been Orthodox for nearly 50 years and I cannot think of what you have in mind.  If you or Volnutt find it I would be very interested.  LBK may know?

LBK has never seen such an image, and is very interested in seeing one, if, indeed, it exists  ;). The closest I've seen is an angel holding a chalice to Christ's bleeding side at the Crucifixion, imagery which came to Orthodox iconography via the Venetians from Roman Catholic religious art.

Here are two I found:



and

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony

Offline Cephas

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2011, 06:21:41 PM »
Here's another slightly blurry but larger one:

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #193 on: August 23, 2011, 06:23:01 PM »
The Sacred Prepuce is a physical object.
Oh, come now.

It was back around 4 BC. Now it's either not on earth or long decomposed.

Unless you trust the Syriac Infancy Gospel. But I'd rather not.

Things like this scandalize Christianity as a whole. And not in the "scandal of the cross" way.
It is truly absurd for (some) Orthodox to say that they will venerate the Sacred Prepuce, but at the same time they severely criticise the Catholic devotion to the Sacred Heart.
The difference between venerating a divided relic on earth vs. venerating a mystical body part concept/part of Christ's glorified humanity apart from the rest has been discussed in this thread already. That said, if you believe we have a Sacred Prepuce, I seriously wonder where you get your history and belief.
I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be? With an icon, this question does not come up.  You do venerate the icons of the Mother of God, even though she is not physically present, don't you?

Offline LBK

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #194 on: August 23, 2011, 06:31:14 PM »
LBK has never seen such an image, and is very interested in seeing one, if, indeed, it exists  ;). The closest I've seen is an angel holding a chalice to Christ's bleeding side at the Crucifixion, imagery which came to Orthodox iconography via the Venetians from Roman Catholic religious art.

Here are two I found:



and


[/quote]


I have only ever seen such imagery in non-Orthodox art. The small picture at the bottom is based on a medieval illumination, the other two are recently-painted works based on the same imagery, but painted in an "iconographic" style. Remember, there are many folks these days who are not Orthodox who paint religious imagery in an "iconographic" style, hence the confusion.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #195 on: August 23, 2011, 06:39:02 PM »
As cute as those Orthodox pictures of Jesus squeezing a grape vine protruding from his own side.
Never seen one of those.  Could you show us one of these pictures.
I can't find it. My Google fu is weak... Isa knows what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about but I have one of these that was given to me by someone I once knew who brought it back as a gift from St Katherine's when she visited the holy land.

No.  This is not the image.  I have seen it as well and there is at least one form of it somewhere on the Internet but a search [brief] this morning has failed to reveal it to me.  I hope someone finds it.

M.

I have been Orthodox for nearly 50 years and I cannot think of what you have in mind.  If you or Volnutt find it I would be very interested.  LBK may know?

LBK has never seen such an image, and is very interested in seeing one, if, indeed, it exists  ;). The closest I've seen is an angel holding a chalice to Christ's bleeding side at the Crucifixion, imagery which came to Orthodox iconography via the Venetians from Roman Catholic religious art.

Here are two I found:



and

[

These painters are NOT Orthodox.  They are Roman Catholics.

Follow the link back from your .jpg
http://philzicons.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=3157870

Here is the prototype of that image which was painted for the Franciscan Spirituality Center in LaCrosse, WI -- July 6-12, 2008

So the image itself never existed before 2008!   And it comes from a Roman Catholic milieu.



Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #196 on: August 23, 2011, 06:44:40 PM »


I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be?

Well, the Roman Catholics were worshipping it and parading it through the streets until 1983 when it was stolen.  How did they know for sure what it was? 

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #197 on: August 23, 2011, 08:27:52 PM »


I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be?

Well, the Roman Catholics were worshipping it and parading it through the streets until 1983 when it was stolen.  How did they know for sure what it was? 
Obviously because in good faith,  they believed what the Eastern Orthodox faithful had told them about it.  But are you saying that Catholics should not trust what Eastern Orthodox tell them?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #198 on: August 23, 2011, 08:43:11 PM »


I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be?

Well, the Roman Catholics were worshipping it and parading it through the streets until 1983 when it was stolen.  How did they know for sure what it was? 
Obviously because in good faith,  they believed what the Eastern Orthodox faithful had told them about it.  But are you saying that Catholics should not trust what Eastern Orthodox tell them?

Are you saying that the Byzantine imperial house would have presented the Western emperor with a fake relic?   That would be risking military retaliation in those days.  The War of the Sacred Prepuce.  I doubt if they would have risked that.

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #199 on: August 23, 2011, 08:51:42 PM »


I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be?

Well, the Roman Catholics were worshipping it and parading it through the streets until 1983 when it was stolen.  How did they know for sure what it was? 
Obviously because in good faith,  they believed what the Eastern Orthodox faithful had told them about it.  But are you saying that Catholics should not trust what Eastern Orthodox tell them?

Are you saying that the Byzantine imperial house would have presented the Western emperor with a fake relic?   That would be risking military retaliation in those days.  The War of the Sacred Prepuce.  I doubt if they would have risked that.

No.
What I am saying is that it is not wrong to venerate an icon of Our Divine Lord which, through the Sacred Heart imagery,  emphasizes His Divine Love and Compassion for the world. Just as you Orthodox venerate the Sacred Prepuce, so Catholics have a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #200 on: August 23, 2011, 08:57:40 PM »


I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be?

Well, the Roman Catholics were worshipping it and parading it through the streets until 1983 when it was stolen.  How did they know for sure what it was? 
Obviously because in good faith,  they believed what the Eastern Orthodox faithful had told them about it.  But are you saying that Catholics should not trust what Eastern Orthodox tell them?

Are you saying that the Byzantine imperial house would have presented the Western emperor with a fake relic?   That would be risking military retaliation in those days.  The War of the Sacred Prepuce.  I doubt if they would have risked that.

No.
What I am saying is that it is not wrong to venerate an icon of Our Divine Lord which, through the Sacred Heart imagery,  emphasizes His Divine Love and Compassion for the world. Just as you Orthodox venerate the Sacred Prepuce, so Catholics have a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

The Orthodox have not worshipped the Prepuce for 1,200 years (if they ever did.)

It's you Catholics who have been worshipping it for the last 1,200 years and parading it through the streets until you carelessly allowed it to be nicked in 1983.

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #201 on: August 23, 2011, 08:59:54 PM »


I was not the one who brought up the idea of the veneration of the Sacred Prepuce. It was an Orthodox poster. If you are going to venerate the Sacred Prepuce,  how do you know for sure that for sure,  that what you are venerating is what it is claimed to be?

Well, the Roman Catholics were worshipping it and parading it through the streets until 1983 when it was stolen.  How did they know for sure what it was? 
Obviously because in good faith,  they believed what the Eastern Orthodox faithful had told them about it.  But are you saying that Catholics should not trust what Eastern Orthodox tell them?

Are you saying that the Byzantine imperial house would have presented the Western emperor with a fake relic?   That would be risking military retaliation in those days.  The War of the Sacred Prepuce.  I doubt if they would have risked that.

No.
What I am saying is that it is not wrong to venerate an icon of Our Divine Lord which, through the Sacred Heart imagery,  emphasizes His Divine Love and Compassion for the world. Just as you Orthodox venerate the Sacred Prepuce, so Catholics have a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

The Orthodox have not worshipped the Prepuce for 1,200 years (if they ever did.)

It's you Catholics who have been worshipping it for the last 1,200 years and parading it through the streets until you carelessly allowed it to be nicked in 1983.
It's rather odd then that you brought up the question of the Orthodox veneration of the Sacred Prepuce?

Offline biro

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #202 on: August 23, 2011, 09:01:29 PM »
I wasn't aware that people "allow" things to be stolen. If they "allow" it, then it's not theft. Unless you hate Roman Catholics so much, you think it's okay if somebody robs them.  :-X
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:07:53 PM by biro »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #203 on: August 23, 2011, 09:02:17 PM »


It's quite a charming picture in a way although definitely not an icon.  It has a puckish faun-like quality.  In an autumn setting.  And although it descends, almost, into a Lentzian nudity it has none of Lentz's in your face aggressive sexuality.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #204 on: August 23, 2011, 09:03:25 PM »
LBK has never seen such an image, and is very interested in seeing one, if, indeed, it exists  ;). The closest I've seen is an angel holding a chalice to Christ's bleeding side at the Crucifixion, imagery which came to Orthodox iconography via the Venetians from Roman Catholic religious art.

Here are two I found:



and




I have only ever seen such imagery in non-Orthodox art. The small picture at the bottom is based on a medieval illumination, the other two are recently-painted works based on the same imagery, but painted in an "iconographic" style. Remember, there are many folks these days who are not Orthodox who paint religious imagery in an "iconographic" style, hence the confusion.
[/quote]Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think they were icons, but I thought they were some kind of mainstream Orthodox thing still.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #205 on: August 23, 2011, 09:07:06 PM »


It's quite a charming picture in a way although definitely not an icon.  It has a puckish faun-like quality.  In an autumn setting.  And although it descends, almost, into a Lentzian nudity it has none of Lentz's in your face aggressive sexuality.
Don't coin that term, you'll give Lentz a big head  :laugh:.


Honestly, I had a feeling you'd like this picture. One more piece of evidence your finding the Sacred Heart disgusting is just inconsistency.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #206 on: August 23, 2011, 09:08:48 PM »
I wasn't aware that people "allow" things to be stolen. If they "allow" it, then it's not theft. Unless you hate Roman Catholics so much, you think it's okay if somebody robs them.  :-X
By "allow" he means they were negligent, like leaving the keys in the ignition.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #207 on: August 23, 2011, 09:09:27 PM »
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Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think they were icons, but I thought they were some kind of mainstream Orthodox thing still.

No problem, Volnutt. It's easy enough to be taken in by images painted in that distinctive "iconographic" style and think they're Orthodox. It takes many years, and much effort, to be able to sort out the sheep from the goats.  :)
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2011, 09:09:43 PM »
I wasn't aware that people "allow" things to be stolen. If they "allow" it, then it's not theft. Unless you hate Roman Catholics so much, you think it's okay if somebody robs them.  :-X

I hate the heresies of the Catholic Church just as the Fathers hated all heresy.  But outside the heresies, what is there to hate?   Many of you are quite lovable. :laugh:

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #209 on: August 23, 2011, 09:10:21 PM »
Quote
Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think they were icons, but I thought they were some kind of mainstream Orthodox thing still.

No problem, Volnutt. It's easy enough to be taken in by images painted in that distinctive "iconographic" style and think they're Orthodox. It takes many years, and much effort, to be able to sort out the sheep from the goats.  :)
Thanks.  :)
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #210 on: August 23, 2011, 09:11:30 PM »
You dodged the point. Then again, I should know better by now, with you. I shudder to think whether your bishop knows and approves of the kind of priest who says things like you do.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2011, 09:13:16 PM »
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Honestly, I had a feeling you'd like this picture. One more piece of evidence your finding the Sacred Heart disgusting is just inconsistency.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, Volnutt. It's a nice picture (certainly a far cry from the gross abuses of Lentz and his proteges), but it is still not an icon.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2011, 09:15:53 PM »


It's quite a charming picture in a way although definitely not an icon.  It has a puckish faun-like quality.  In an autumn setting.  And although it descends, almost, into a Lentzian nudity it has none of Lentz's in your face aggressive sexuality.
Don't coin that term, you'll give Lentz a big head  :laugh:.


Honestly, I had a feeling you'd like this picture. One more piece of evidence your finding the Sacred Heart disgusting is just inconsistency.

I like it as a piece of art.  Christ the Eternal Faun.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2011, 09:16:23 PM »
But this does nothing for me...


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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2011, 09:19:24 PM »
It's a prayer card, with an artist's concept of the love and suffering Jesus went through for us.

You don't like prayer?
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Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2011, 09:21:50 PM »
You dodged the point. Then again, I should know better by now, with you. I shudder to think whether your bishop knows and approves of the kind of priest who says things like you do.

Your point (msg 202)seemed to be an underhand insinuation that I hate the Catholic Church.  You're way off base.  I thought my answer to that silliness was clear enough (msg 208.)

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #216 on: August 23, 2011, 09:23:04 PM »
There was nothing underhanded about it. I said it right in the open.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2011, 09:30:25 PM »
It's a prayer card, with an artist's concept of the love and suffering Jesus went through for us.

You don't like prayer?

Prayer plays a significant part of every day.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #218 on: August 23, 2011, 09:31:07 PM »
It's a prayer card, with an artist's concept of the love and suffering Jesus went through for us.

Which is precisely why such an image cannot be an icon, and therefore cannot be part of Orthodox doctrine and theology. Artists' conceptions, however talented, are the antithesis of the true iconographer, who submits his artistic talents to the service of the Church, and who paints in faithful proclamation of what the Church teaches and espouses.

Iconography expresses at its core, the Incarnation of Christ. Christ is not divided into His parts.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #219 on: August 23, 2011, 09:32:28 PM »
If you use the image of the heart as a metaphor for love, as many artists and writers have, why not? Nothing could be stronger or better than Jesus' love for us.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #220 on: August 23, 2011, 09:35:11 PM »
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Honestly, I had a feeling you'd like this picture. One more piece of evidence your finding the Sacred Heart disgusting is just inconsistency.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, Volnutt. It's a nice picture (certainly a far cry from the gross abuses of Lentz and his proteges), but it is still not an icon.
I'm just saying, both the EO and the RCC popular piety have the for all practical purposes the same gory fixations and I find it sad that Father Ambrose keeps bending over backwards to pretend there is a significant aesthetic difference.

Admittedly, I probably shouldn't be picking at this though since it really has nothing to do with the Traditional-ness of the Sacred Heart. Like biro, I'm just sick of all the chest beating is all.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #221 on: August 23, 2011, 09:36:57 PM »
If you use the image of the heart as a metaphor for love, as many artists and writers have, why not? Nothing could be stronger or better than Jesus' love for us.

It is no accident or coincidence that the image of the heart of Christ has never been used as an Orthodox icon. This alone should make one pause.
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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #222 on: August 23, 2011, 09:40:25 PM »
BTW:  None of those 'vine and branches' images are like the one to which I was referring.

Also:  Since there are no heresies in the Church of my baptism, the Catholic Church, there's nothing at all to hate...unless of course you have a particular need.

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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #223 on: August 23, 2011, 09:40:53 PM »
There was nothing underhanded about it. I said it right in the open.

I don't know which Church you belong to but in ours we pray for Roman Catholics every morning.  From the Patriarch down to the streetsweeper we pray every day for the salvation of Catholics and their return to Orthodoxy.  This prayer is a great act of love.  

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm


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Re: The Sacred Heart
« Reply #224 on: August 23, 2011, 09:45:31 PM »
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I'm just saying, both the EO and the RCC popular piety have the for all practical purposes the same gory fixations

This is not at all true. Never has there been any Orthodox veneration of the heart of Jesus. Never have lurid statues or paintings of the passion of Christ ever been part of Orthodox devotion. Icons of the crucifixion, at least those predating the 17th century, are distinguished by their dispassion, lack of gore, and their expression of the Divine Man, Theanthropos, willingly giving Himself up and enduring crucifixion for the salvation of the human race. Less has always been more, and is the hallmark of good iconography. The Isenheim Altarpiece is an impressive and evocative work of art, but it is not an icon.

Similarly, Orthodox hymnography maintains the balance between the human Jesus and the divine Christ. His suffering is not absent, but it is not overemphasised at the expense of His divinity. And it is beyond question that Orthodoxy has always placed the Resurrection in its rightful place.
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