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Author Topic: Pictures of Hindu Ritual At Fatima  (Read 4370 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 19, 2004, 10:01:47 AM »


Pictures of a Desecration done with the approval of the Roman Catholic Church

http://www.oltyn.com/HindMay5.htm

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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2004, 12:01:48 PM »

Wow.  This is horrible.  I thought Pope John Paul II had a strong devotion to Our Lady of Fatima.  In light of a previous inter-religious gathering held in Assisi, where a Hindu Idol was placed on an altar, with the Pope in attendence, it looks like this type of behavior is becoming the norm in Roman Catholicism, and the Pope's silence on this matter can only be interpreted as his approval.
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2004, 12:15:12 PM »

I think it is more of an issue for the local Bishop than for the Pope.  It's not as if the Pope said "Hey, that's fine with me".
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2004, 12:23:43 PM »

Sometimes inaction IS action.

Sometimes not disapproving IS approving.


« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 12:26:08 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2004, 12:57:35 PM »

[I think it is more of an issue for the local Bishop than for the Pope.  It's not as if the Pope said "Hey, that's fine with me".]

Huh!  The Pope has and had the authority to stop it before it happened.  The Pope also has the authority to reprimand what happened.  He has not reacted!

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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2004, 01:09:19 PM »

Huh!  The Pope has and had the authority to stop it before it happened.  The Pope also has the authority to reprimand what happened.  He has not reacted!

Authority does not imply capability. I doubt that it was true that the pope could have stopped it, and as far as reacting to it is concerned, he is not an all-seeing eye wreathed in flame.
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2004, 03:03:54 PM »

Desecration is an inappropriate term.  I do not approve of what took place, the Holy Altar is reserved for the Holy Liturgy period, even Catholic devotions are not lead from it.  To allow a non-Christian to lead prayer from this place is totally  wrong and those clergy who allowed it sinned.  However, the Hindu's were there in good faith, were most likely unaware they were doing anything wrong, and offered their prayers in ernest, though misguided.  To call it desecration implies a "those filthy Hindu's fouled our church" attitude.

"With the approval of the Roman Catholic Church" is quite a strong accusation.

With the approval of the shrine's rector, or the diocese's bishop would be accurate.

"The Pope has and had the authority to stop it before it happened."

Only if he knew it was going to take place.  Do you think the Pope is sent a detailed list of everyone that visits a Catholic shrine?  

"The Pope also has the authority to reprimand what happened.  He has not reacted!"

You don't know what the Pope has done or not done because the majority of reprimands are not made public.  I am sure the diocesan bishop will get his well deserved chewing out.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2004, 03:04:08 PM »

//I think it is more of an issue for the local Bishop than for the Pope.  It's not as if the Pope said "Hey, that's fine with me".//

The Pope dosnt know that this is going on in Fatima, one of his most honoured spots Huh  His devotion to the Fatima secrets are well known.  Come on now, do you really think we were all were born in a turnip patch?  He knows, and I believe that you know he knows.  The problem is that the Vatican cannot control her bishops.  This is not a new phenomenon for Rome.  Rome has been concerned with what is happening to the shrine for quite some time now.  Look at how the US bishops handled the scandles. ISTM, Without this control there is no unity in the Roman faith.

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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2004, 10:48:05 PM »

Once again..... the fruits of Vatican II and the post-Vatican II reforms.

This would not have happened 50 years ago, there is absolutely no way.

Our culture, and my Church have been infected by modernism, liberalism, and secularism, all previously condemned by numerous popes and Saints.

In my opinion, Satan is attacking the Church of Christ from within, the great apostasy is occuring, and highest ranks of the Church has been infected by the power of darkness.

There have been many visions and prophecies throughout the history of the Catholic Church, by various Saints and popes, that have clearly spoke of the day when Satan would attack the Church from within, and the Church would be infected by great heresy and the lies of Satan.
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2004, 12:24:45 AM »

From the article:

Quote
“It is obvious” says Rector Guerra, “that these civilizations and religions are quite different. But I think that there is a common background to all religions. There is a common background that, how can I put it, is born from the common humanity we all possess. And it is very important that we recognize this common background, because, due to the clashes of the differences, we sometimes forget our equality. These meetings give us that occasion.”

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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2004, 04:59:04 AM »

he is not an all-seeing eye wreathed in flame.

I love the LOTR reference Grin, though not even Sauron could see everywhere at once Wink.

John.
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2004, 07:39:33 AM »

Give.  Me.  A.  Break.

No kidding.

He sounds like our presiding bishop, except that Frank Griswold is generally about three notches more obscure.
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2004, 09:24:02 AM »

Ordain about ten married men in the Byzantine Catholic Church and see how fast the pope's power kicks in.

A church has to be reconsecrated if a friendly puppy wanders in.  The placing of idols on the Holy Altar for "worship" isn't desecration?

I'd be curious to know what is.
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2004, 12:10:39 PM »

"The placing of idols on the Holy Altar for "worship" isn't desecration?"

No idol was placed on the altar.  A Hindu cleric led the Shanti Pa (prayer for peace tect below) from the altar and an offering of flowers was made.  Agian I do not agree this should have taken place but we need to be honest about what occured.

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May there be peace on earth.
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May all things be a source of peace to us.
And may thy peace itself, bestow peace on all,
and may that peace come to me also.
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2004, 02:37:25 PM »

A Hindu cleric led the Shanti Pa (prayer for peace tect below) from the altar and an offering of flowers was made....

Oh God, lead us from the
unreal to the Real.
Oh God, lead us from darkness to light.
Oh God, lead us from death to immortality.
Shanti, Shanti, Shanti unto all.
Oh Lord God almighty, may there be peace in
celestial regions.
May there be peace on earth.
May the waters be appeasing.
May herbs be wholesome, and may trees and
plants bring peace to all. May all beneficent
beings bring peace to us.
May thy Vedic Law propagate peace all
through the world.
May all things be a source of peace to us.
And may thy peace itself, bestow peace on all,
and may that peace come to me also.

Excuse me....

A Hindu priest offered something on a Catholic altar.  That an idol was not placed on said altar is irrelevant; worship of a sacramental nature was "performed," and that of a non-Christian.  

To whom was this offering made?  References to "God" and "Lord God Almighty" were used several times in the "Shanti," yet, in the words of Fr. Tom Hopko, "Which God?  What God?  How do you define God?"  I would even ask: Which god, out of the many worshipped by the Hindu, was addressed here?  Certainly not the God of the Cross.

His god(s) is/are not Our God.  His faith is not our Faith.  His asceticism is not that of our Church -- his fight is not our fight, iow.  His gods' "Vedic law" is not our "Law of Spirit and Life in Christ Jesus."  His "light" is not the Light in which is the Life of men.  His god's peace is not the peace our Lord left with us.  Yet he is proclaimed to be on equal footing with the Triune Godhead.

This is blasphemy.
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2004, 04:04:27 PM »

Pedro,

You are excused.Smiley

I was only pointing out that an idol was not palced on the altar as did happen in Assisi when some unaware Buddhists placed a statue of Buddha on a Catholic altar.  I am not sure the worship offered could be termed sacramental.  Again, I agree that this was a sin for the priest that allowed it, as non-Christian worship in a Church is prohibited, and even use of a Catholic Church by non-Catholic Christians must have special permission is not considered a small matter.  But I would doubt the Hindu's involved were aware or intended to blaspheme our Church.

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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2004, 04:22:14 PM »

But I would doubt the Hindu's involved were aware or intended to blaspheme our Church.

I would assume the same, Dn. Lance.  In situations like this, Christians should know better, and clearly are guilty when they let these things happen.
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2004, 04:56:55 PM »

In the aftermath of the 2nd Vatican Council, much of the Roman Catholic worship seems to have been minimized, and even the concept of sacred space lost on many.  The removal of altar rails from most Roman Catholic Churches blurred the lines between the nave and the sanctuary, and caused an almost casual approach with regards to access to the altar.  That doesn't in any way excuse the rector of Fatima (who's also old enough to know better) from allowing the Hindus to worship their pagan gods in what should be the sacred space of the altar, but this is emblamatic of the general de-mystification and de-sacralization of Roman Catholic worship, which was implemented by a majority of bishops and priests.
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2004, 05:11:31 PM »

//I was only pointing out that an idol was not palced on the altar as did happen in Assisi when some unaware Buddhists placed a statue of Buddha on a Catholic altar.  I am not sure the worship offered could be termed sacramental.//

So the litmus test is whether or not a pagan statue is placed upon a consecrated altar to make a pagan service sacramental. I cant imagine the Buddhists not considering it a sacramental at their service in Assisi. I know they werent doing it for mere window dressing. It had to have some very special meaning to them.

 // Again, I agree that this was a sin for the priest that allowed it, as non-Christian worship in a Church is prohibited, and even use of a Catholic Church by non-Catholic Christians must have special permission is not considered a small matter.  But I would doubt the Hindu's involved were aware or intended to blaspheme our Church.//

The Hindu's didnt intend it to be blasphemous? As far as Christianity is concerned, it was blasphemous whether or not the Hindus intended it to be so or not.  I dont know why this is not self evident.  

My question is why are they even represented there, let alone having an altar to celebrate on supplied by non other than the RCC?

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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2004, 05:31:59 PM »

//In the aftermath of the 2nd Vatican Council, much of the Roman Catholic worship seems to have been minimized, and even the concept of sacred space lost on many.  The removal of altar rails from most Roman Catholic Churches blurred the lines between the nave and the sanctuary, and caused an almost casual approach with regards to access to the altar.//

I can personally attest to this. In my search some years ago I personally witnessed a bus tour of school children that was paraded through and around the Altar and sacristy of SS. Peter & Paul Cathedral in Philadelphia Pa (Anthony Bevellaqua was Cardinal at the time).  I guess the altar is now considered a tourist attraction in addition to it being a holy place.

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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2004, 06:04:41 PM »

Sadly, this is just one more example of how great the increasing divide between Orthodoxy and RCs has become. As a previous contributor has already acknowledged this would not even have been contemplated several decades ago. I do not attach any blame or reproach to the Hindus. According to their lights it was a natural thing, I imagine.

There is a significant tendency which impatiently wants to sweep aside all that seperates different faiths. This will be seen as an encouraging step forward. Any who object will be seen as narrow and unyielding, at best!

Let us pray that Orthodox heirarchs and their flocks do not follow the lamentable examples already set in Italy, Portugal and Kazakhstan.
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2004, 08:57:05 PM »

In the aftermath of the 2nd Vatican Council, much of the Roman Catholic worship seems to have been minimized, and even the concept of sacred space lost on many.  The removal of altar rails from most Roman Catholic Churches blurred the lines between the nave and the sanctuary, and caused an almost casual approach with regards to access to the altar.  That doesn't in any way excuse the rector of Fatima (who's also old enough to know better) from allowing the Hindus to worship their pagan gods in what should be the sacred space of the altar, but this is emblamatic of the general de-mystification and de-sacralization of Roman Catholic worship, which was implemented by a majority of bishops and priests.  

I totally agree.

I must say that it just feels different if you see a Hindu priest offering prayers and flowers to his false gods in a wonderful ornate Catholic Church on a beautiful altar right in front of our Lord, rather than just on some table with a statue of our Lady present.

Though this doesn't change what happen, it just looks more ok, even to a non-Catholic - it would look way different if it occured in a beautiful Catholic church - on the high altar. I mean though this was very serious - it just seems a little more ok, since it occured in a plain church, on a table, and not in the pressence of the Blessed Sacrament.

But as it has been said this all goes back to the fact that the idea of the altar being a sacred place, where the greatest miracle and mystery of all, occurs, has really been lost in the post-Vatican II reforms.

There is such a HUGE difference in how the Altar is treated at my local NO church and at my Traditional Latin Mass church. I just can't explain how so many people - esp young people -  these days just treat the Altar - as...well...just a table.
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2004, 09:16:54 PM »

Ben,

It is a sad break down of tradition, I have a 1950's prayer book with group's identified as "infidels", 20 years or so later their prayers are included in a RC prayer book.

Many things within the Church of Rome has influenced my journey East, though I do pray that Rome will find its path again.

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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2004, 06:19:10 PM »

It's a crazy world, kiddies.

The RCC doesn't seem to know what it is anymore.  The extent of lawlessness, even where there are rules on the books (and doctrine for that matter) is astounding.  Honestly, I think after Vatican II Latin bishops and clergy were given a level of autonomy that they were not equipped to handle - bishops having to actually act as bishops, and not simple lieutenants of the Pope and his Curia.

This, combined with other factors coming from within and without, has created a mess.  It does not help that it's hard to put your finger on just where John Paul II himself is coming from.  It's not that I think he is a malignant, forked tongue liar - but he is duplicitous, precisely because his thinking is fundamentally of two minds; an outgrowth of the post-modern philosophies which underly his approach to everything.

This is why John Paul tries to be "all things to all people" to an extent which lacks coherance.  On one hand, he wants reproachment with the Orthodox Church - but on the other, because his interest in relations with the Protestants, he does things which are much more certain to alienate the Orthodox than any "lifting of the anathemas" against the Orthodox in 1965 was likely to mend (this being done by Pope Paul VI.)  Most Orthodox need only take a quick look at a typical "post Vatican II church" and the services held within it, to realize that while they may not particularly like us, in reality he probably has a lot more in common with the Tridentine rite "Lefebvrists" than he does with the denizens of John Paul II's church!

Thus it is in this spirit, the same spirit which allowed John Paul II to kiss the Quran as a sign of respect, or to stuff a prayer note into what was left of the outer wall of the second Temple in Jerusalem, or offer prayer in common with idol worshippers, etc. etc. that what is currently going on in the Fatima shrine is being done with.

While I can tacitly agree with Dcn. Lance that the Hindus involved in this incident should not be blamed and were probably acting with some good will in all of this, this says nothing for the allegedly Christian rector and bishop who did not simply allow, but invited and encouraged this activity to take place - they are the ones to blame, just as you do not blame the dog which has done it's business on your yard, but the owner who went ahead and let his pet do this.

As for no one knowing for sure if the Pope will "privately reprimand" the local bishop and rector for letting this happen, because it will be done "privately" I have to reply - who cares?  The reality is, if such a private reprimand were to occur (which I highly doubt), by being private it will have all of the consequence for everyone but those men so "reprimanded" of not happening at all.  In other words, whatever simple persons seeing this spectacle will bring from it, will remain with them - if it is a total loss of confidence in their church, that will remain.  If it is a belief "oh well, all things are equal, like the rector has said", that will remain.  This is precisely why very public sins typically require some kind of public reprimand or at least notice - precisely because of the harm they bring to others.

In the Orthodox Church, the Ark of Salvation, which continues in the Apostolic Succession (not only in terms of the laying on of hands, but the communication of the faith) we know that the grace of the Holy Spirit is active, that the Church is His Temple.  Outside, all is a doubting question mark, debatable at best - viewed "positively" the best we can judge is that which seems to be moving toward the Church, for none come to the Church or to Her faith by any means save the workings of grace.

But when we see such things being endemic in the modern RCC, am I seeing the signs of grace?  Frankly, what I'm seeing is the full fall out of a church so removed from truth, so lost, that even the barest forms inspired by past grace are absent - a deadened monasticism, almost nothing resembling fasting (even the extremely lienient rules of abstaining are gone, except for the paschal season...and the eucharistic fast rules for the Latins are such that as long as you stuff the last bite of your Big Mac down before driving ten minutes to the local parish, you can receive communion licitly), and a liturgical life where all is being honoured but the Triune God, or at best "buddy Christ", that neo-gnostic godling en vogue with so much of what calls itself "Christianity" in our days.

When the Holy Fathers taught that heresies drive away the grace of God, this is precisely the kind of thing they meant - not that God looks angrily down upon those who do not fit within the most narrow definition of correctness, but that when you pervert the way given by God to man, you will ruin yourself and all those who follow.  God have mercy upon all who have departed (and are departing!) from the Ark of Salvation.

Perhaps the pictures of the recent Hindu Fatima Shrine incident should be sent to all of the heirarchs in the world's local Orthodox Churches, for I think in them is a cautionary note - this is where promiscuous optimism about that which is outside of the Church, and where contemptuously walking all over and ignoring the Holy Traditions will get you; this is the fruit of the genuinely heretical ecumenism and anti-canonical acts endemic to much of the modern Orthodox dialogue with the heterodox and others outside of the Church.

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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2004, 05:16:44 PM »

Well stated Augustine! You have addressed the real issues I and many former RCs have with the church.  I thank God every day that He in His great mercy has brought me home to the Church established by Jesus Christ.  We need to pray for our hurting brothers and sisters in the RC Church. We need to pray that God will raise up good men to bring back the church to the fullness of grace it once had .
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