Author Topic: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy  (Read 3116 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mattheos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
  • I'm a llama!
Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« on: August 19, 2011, 08:01:18 AM »
I was wondering if anyone has the rubics handy which gives the order of service when a baptism is served as part of the Divine Liturgy.

Thanks,
Mattheos
NULL

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 09:17:26 AM »
There are made up rubrics that St. Vladimir's Seminary produced in the form of one of their little liturgical booklets. The "Baptismal Liturgy" is a completely made up service and has been discussed in other threads.

The traditional rubric for baptisms during liturgy is they take place during the Old Testament reading that you find during the Vesperal Liturgies that proceed a great feast (Pascha, Christmas, Theophany). 
Joseph

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,247
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 09:29:45 AM »
Links to such threads?
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 07:29:52 PM »
Links to such threads?

Baptism as part of Liturgy
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17516.0.html

Funeral Divine Liturgy - which has some crossover talk on the subject
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26886.0.html

Discussion of the practice in the Church of Moscow
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24071.0.html

I remember a discussion of the practice as done by the OCA and their little booklet but, I can not seem to find it.

The search function of this website usually is a great place to look.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 07:30:54 PM by arimethea »
Joseph

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,003
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2011, 04:15:36 AM »
It's cool to witness such a thing. I had an opportunity for a few times.

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 933
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »
I have witnessed such Liturgies. The Liturgy per se begins with "As Many as have been Baptized", and takes over from the Baptismal service after the exclamation "For Holy art Thou..."

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,556
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 05:00:40 PM »
My children's baptism was part of a baptismal liturgy. It didn't seem all that different, really, just with a baptism inserted in the middle.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Online Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,228
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 05:09:34 PM »
There are made up rubrics that St. Vladimir's Seminary produced in the form of one of their little liturgical booklets. The "Baptismal Liturgy" is a completely made up service and has been discussed in other threads.

The traditional rubric for baptisms during liturgy is they take place during the Old Testament reading that you find during the Vesperal Liturgies that proceed a great feast (Pascha, Christmas, Theophany). 

I am confused. On the one hand, there is a traditional rubric for baptismal liturgies (second paragraph) and on the other hand, it si completely made up service. I have no idea what the SVS rubrics do, but it seems to me that it is a variation on a theme rather than a new theme.

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 06:58:45 PM »
There are made up rubrics that St. Vladimir's Seminary produced in the form of one of their little liturgical booklets. The "Baptismal Liturgy" is a completely made up service and has been discussed in other threads.

The traditional rubric for baptisms during liturgy is they take place during the Old Testament reading that you find during the Vesperal Liturgies that proceed a great feast (Pascha, Christmas, Theophany). 

I am confused. On the one hand, there is a traditional rubric for baptismal liturgies (second paragraph) and on the other hand, it si completely made up service. I have no idea what the SVS rubrics do, but it seems to me that it is a variation on a theme rather than a new theme.

Sorry for the confusion.

Let me clarify. "The Baptismal Liturgy" that SVS has propagated in the past is an innovation, in that forces elements of the baptism service into the structure of the Liturgy.

This is a development out of the ancient practice of baptisms during major feast day liturgies. The issues is that these baptisms were taking place outside of the temple and happening as the liturgy was taking place. This can still occurs on Holy Saturday, Christmas and Theophany when the baptisms can take place during the Old Testament readings of the St. Basil's liturgy, in which case the baptism are done outside of the temple proper and are in fact a separate service from the liturgy.
Joseph

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 08:07:34 PM »
From what I've seen done, the baptism is done in place of the antiphons right at the beginning of the liturgy. The liturgy picks up with "As many as have been baptized into Christ..." in place of the Trisagion.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Mattheos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 11:04:11 AM »
So there is no small entrance with the Holy Gospel when the Baptism is served? So all antiphons, entrance hymns (eg Come let us worship and fall down before Christ), apolyiticions (of the day, tempal and kontakion) are omitted?   
NULL

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 11:25:54 AM »
So there is no small entrance with the Holy Gospel when the Baptism is served? So all antiphons, entrance hymns (eg Come let us worship and fall down before Christ), apolyiticions (of the day, tempal and kontakion) are omitted? 

The baptism is done in place of the three antiphons. I'll have to pay better attention next time to make a note of how exactly the transition is made into the liturgy. I'm pretty sure there is a small entrance.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,641
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 12:21:24 PM »
It's a pretentious innovation.

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 933
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 09:45:44 PM »
No,there is no "Small entrance"The servers bear candles,and go back to the altar during ("As many")
After the exclamation,the priest carries or-leads(if the baptised person is an adult), the baptised person 3x around the analogion. Then, all return to the altar.The liturgy continues as normal
I have to agree with you augustin.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,003
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Baptism served as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 05:14:28 AM »
AFAIR it starts before the Liturgy but the final  part and chrismation is done in the moment previous posters wrote.