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« on: August 19, 2011, 04:50:16 AM »

You would say that morals are from God and so they are mandated by God and that either people learn them and have to stick to them or that they are born with a moral conscience and so they are already inside of us. I don't believe that we are born with them. I think they come from the community we live in and how that community deals with things and how we are taught. Then i think we even modify them according to our own interpretation of where we think the line is. Even if you're Orthodox i still think you will modify the line of when you might lie or steal or kill depending on the situation.

"What we humans have is deep and deeply held moral intuitions that can be nudged in different directions due to cultural influences and various complex contingencies that Mother Nature (evolution) could not have predicted.  In addition to a moral sense, we also have complex brains, complex cultures, competing ideological pressures, and lots of understandable confusion and paradox."  David Moser
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 07:42:49 AM »

... I don't believe that we are born with them. I think they come from the community we live in and how that community deals with things and how we are taught.


Indeed!  These are some of the reasons that:

-God established a Church, to be the community to help teach us how we should best work out our salvation by participating in the life of the Trinity; and
-Why the Orthodox are so concerned with community and consensus, making Conciliar decisions as opposed to individual fiat.


Then i think we even modify them according to our own interpretation of where we think the line is. Even if you're Orthodox i still think you will modify the line of when you might lie or steal or kill depending on the situation.


Sure! Some Orthodox have a strong and ethical faith taught them by the Church, and other Orthodox may have a bit of a wobbly line in regards to some issues, just like every community.

The big thing is that, if an Orthodox person made a decision on a moral issue that was on the incorrect and un-Christian side of an issue, s/he can repent after they realize their mistake and re-enter the community. That is why community is so important and why Christianity is a faith of relationships: we all will exile oursleves from the Community, and for our salvation we need to re-establish a relationship (just as why Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden).
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 09:46:40 AM »

Ok so but Adam and Eve wern't let back in!!!!!!! There was angels put at the gate to stop them
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 09:53:05 AM »

Ok so but Adam and Eve wern't let back in!!!!!!! There was angels put at the gate to stop them
You should look at the icon of the Christs decent into Hades.
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 10:07:32 AM »

The relation between built-in morality and social morality is the same as our capacity to language and actually spoken languages.

We all have capacity to language, unless we have some brain damage. All languages have subjects, verbs, complements. All languages conjugate and decline, some more, some less. All languages coordinate sentences, but in some, more coordination and subordination is good style, in others it's bad style. And although we know there universal elements to all languages, it's very difficult to have a scientifically agreed list of which ones they are. And then you have the thousands of languages that apply these universals in so different ways that they make... different languages.


Likewise with morality. Killing, stealing are wrong in every society. But they will diverge towards what the legitimate exceptions to this are. All societies have sexual morality, but may disagree at exactly what point promiscuity begins. All socities reproach incest, but some include in that only directed related relatives, others may include entire clans.

So, morality is both built-in and socially constructed. We can't get rid of any aspect of it.
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 06:22:05 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2011, 06:29:10 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011, 06:40:46 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 07:07:12 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
"'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it" - St. Augustine
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 07:08:23 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.

Yes, that is a human flaw. But regardless, we should always be aware of the existence of an ideal and try to follow it.
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 07:24:18 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
"'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it" - St. Augustine

yeah me and Augustine don't see eye to eye bld
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2011, 06:13:11 PM »

The problem of course is that is a subjective morality, and I would suggest human experience tells us that morals are not subjective, there are objectively wrong things to do.
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2011, 06:17:29 PM »

The problem of course is that is a subjective morality, and I would suggest human experience tells us that morals are not subjective, there are objectively wrong things to do.

yeah to some extent there is objectivity but we all do our own thing even with the things we all think we might agree on that are common, we would all have different lines
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2011, 06:19:56 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
"'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it" - St. Augustine

yeah me and Augustine don't see eye to eye bld
Guess who's wrong on this point.
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2011, 06:24:27 PM »

The problem of course is that is a subjective morality, and I would suggest human experience tells us that morals are not subjective, there are objectively wrong things to do.

yeah to some extent there is objectivity but we all do our own thing even with the things we all think we might agree on that are common, we would all have different lines

The question then follows who is right and are those things subjective? IN light of God and the evidence for orthodox Christianity I would suggest those acts which in today's culture are treated with neutrality but the orthodox church condemns I would say are wrong. But I would ask under your world view what prohibits a person from saying Murder is a good thing? If your original post can be taken seriously.
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2011, 06:26:10 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
"'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it" - St. Augustine

yeah me and Augustine don't see eye to eye bld
So basically I am justified in whatever I do then, whether that be sleeping with 10 different women while I'm married and/or bomibing a whole church community. Hey it's my morality because that is what I think it to be, but it has no clear distinction between what is objectively right or wrong.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 06:26:35 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2011, 06:56:37 PM »

Poppy,

Bear with me, whatever I thought I had and left, is back. My fever is epic.

"Morality" is misconstrued in Orthodoxy by many including most Orthodox.

Morality ain't some list of rules about right and wrong to appease an Angry God or so that we can be "better" people.

God's and man's relationship is based on a clear understanding of what man's relationship to the world, his neighbor, and obviously God is.

In other words, "morality" or rather let's say the truth about how to live life given to us from God is how reality is. Living outside proper relationship with God and our neighbor, we are in delusion. And the greater the delusion, the more difficult the way back to reality, which is to say back to a loving relationship with God and our neighbor.

This is why "morality" IS spirituality. Forget all the esoteric and obviously "spiritual" stuff until you got the basics of spirituality down. The basic understanding of reality: your relationship with God and neighbor down.

This is why God's commandments altered over time with humankind. For we don't have a personal relationship with God alone. Nor do we start as children as some sorta tabula rasa or unfallen creature of God.

Sin and thus separation fron God and our neighbor are ontological, it is in our very being. From conception on, we are sinners. We carry the separation from God experienced from our parents, their parents, and their parents, and so on.

Thankfully, God is merciful and loves mankind. And has worked with us and our forefathers from the very beginning after the fall to show us the way back home.

God's last Word on way back was His Word. His Son in flesh who walked among us showing us how to live in communion with God and our neighbors. He taught us through His life, His words, and ultimately His death how to relate to God and our neighbor.

Thus morality ain't some lists of rules to follow to be "good". It may start as a list of rules, but ultimately God's revelation to us of our proper position in the world is to come back to reality, to the love of God and love of our neighbor. And His last Word is and Way is through His Son Jesus Christ.

Everything else is simply fantasy.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 07:13:13 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2011, 07:05:06 PM »

Excellent post orthonorm, I think there isn't anything left to discuss.
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2011, 07:08:59 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
"'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it" - St. Augustine

yeah me and Augustine don't see eye to eye bld
So basically I am justified in whatever I do then, whether that be sleeping with 10 different women while I'm married and/or bomibing a whole church community. Hey it's my morality because that is what I think it to be, but it has no clear distinction between what is objectively right or wrong.

I see that you have backed out of the discussion so, i wont bother answering your posts then uh??
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2011, 07:15:05 PM »

but morals will be different for everyone. You cant just say its wrong to kill, because its not. Its only wrong to kill in certain circumstances but not in others like when your at war or when your defending yourself. Or when someone should have the death penalty.

Which is why only one being's sense of morality matters: God's. When we allow people to be the authors of their own morality rather than following God's will is when anything will be made permissible (we see this to a limited extent in our modern society).

but thats kind of what i was saying, even people don't follow Gods morality, they modify it according to what they think.
"'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it" - St. Augustine

yeah me and Augustine don't see eye to eye bld
So basically I am justified in whatever I do then, whether that be sleeping with 10 different women while I'm married and/or bomibing a whole church community. Hey it's my morality because that is what I think it to be, but it has no clear distinction between what is objectively right or wrong.

I see that you have backed out of the discussion so, i wont bother answering your posts then uh??
I believe orthonorm hit the nail on the head. I was just pointing out your faulty logic and reasoning.
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2011, 08:37:10 PM »

yeah Achronos, Only thing wrong with my logic is when someone twists it up when they answer one of my posts lolOl
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2011, 08:46:09 PM »

yeah Achronos, Only thing wrong with my logic is when someone twists it up when they answer one of my posts lolOl
What? I thought I was asking for twizzlers.
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