Author Topic: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris  (Read 4411 times)

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Offline Knee V

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Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« on: August 17, 2011, 11:11:20 PM »
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 11:35:39 PM »
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?
IIRC, we have a thread somewhere here about it being celebrated in Iowa somewhere.

Ah, yes, here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33844.msg534512.html#msg534512
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 11:39:25 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 11:36:53 PM »
I don't know too much other than that a ROCOR parish in Iowa uses it. They are supposedly of the Gallican Rite, but I haven't seen their other services outside of the DL. It does look impressive, sort of a mingling of Western and Eastern ideas.

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« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 11:37:07 PM by Shlomlokh »
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 11:45:22 PM »
I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized. I believe it is based upon the liturgy that St. John Maximovitch helped piece together for L'ECOF, which I've been told was intended to be a commingling of East and West.

Not my cup of tea, really.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 04:07:52 AM »
this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?

I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized.

How was it Byzantinized?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 04:09:21 AM by Alpo »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 04:12:44 AM »
I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized. I believe it is based upon the liturgy that St. John Maximovitch helped piece together for L'ECOF, which I've been told was intended to be a commingling of East and West.

Not my cup of tea, really.

It certainly seems quite Byzantinised. Even the Prayer of the Cherubic Hymn ("none of those who are bound by the pleasures of the flesh ..."), a rather late addition to St John's Divine Liturgy, is in there.

I am completely ignorant of the history, but the inclusion of such prayers leads me to be skeptical of how accurate a "reconstruction" this liturgy is.

Anyone who knows better able to comment?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 07:54:54 AM »
I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized. I believe it is based upon the liturgy that St. John Maximovitch helped piece together for L'ECOF, which I've been told was intended to be a commingling of East and West.

Not my cup of tea, really.

It certainly seems quite Byzantinised. Even the Prayer of the Cherubic Hymn ("none of those who are bound by the pleasures of the flesh ..."), a rather late addition to St John's Divine Liturgy, is in there.

I am completely ignorant of the history, but the inclusion of such prayers leads me to be skeptical of how accurate a "reconstruction" this liturgy is.

Anyone who knows better able to comment?

A ROCOR priest told me the following on a WR group, "But now let me drop the bomb, for I know that there are many ANTI-ECOF folk in this group. The Orthodox Church of France, which was blessed and nurtured by St. John of Maximovitch and under the Romanian Patriarchate for 23 years, provides an example of a Liturgy and accompanying Offices which do all that we have been discussing, that being, a blend - a synthesis - of the Eastern & Western traditions. And this Liturgy is now blessed to be celebrated in WR parishes of ROCOR."

I'm not sure what the exact details are, but from what my acquaintance at the Iowa parish said, it seems about 70% of the liturgy is Eastern.

Offline Knee V

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 10:08:29 AM »
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?

At least from my observations, it seems that the more common WRO liturgies are simply modern Western liturgies that have been "corrected" to make them more Orthodox, but don't represent any actual liturgy that was ever used by an Western Christians anywhere.

This one, at least from the description given on the website that I provided, seems to be a relatively accurate re-creation of a liturgy that was used for several centuries in Gaul, having originated from immigrants from Greece and Asia minor.

To quote the website: "The Gallican Rite had its roots in the growth of the Church of Gaul during the third and fourth centuries, deriving its markedly Eastern character from the many settlers from Greece and Asia Minor moving into southern Gaul at the time. The rite continued to develop through the Merovingian period of French history, and Saint Germanus appears to have been the foremost influence in this process."

That would explain some of its "Eastern" flavor as well, without having to ascribe all of that to those who reconstructed it, as if they were trying to "easternize" a Western liturgy.

All of this is just my impression from what little information I have come across.

Offline searn77

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 10:21:29 AM »
I have heard that St. John blessed this reconstructed use of the Gallican rite as a sort of stepping stone for the church in France and that he never meant for it to be a permanent thing. I'll have to look this up later though as I could be mistaken.
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2011, 09:30:03 PM »
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?

At least from my observations, it seems that the more common WRO liturgies are simply modern Western liturgies that have been "corrected" to make them more Orthodox, but don't represent any actual liturgy that was ever used by an Western Christians anywhere.

Quite incorrect. The Rite of St. Gregory is the liturgy that has been at the heart of Western European Christianity since the time of St. Gregory. The Rite of St. Tikhon is the same Gregorian liturgy, with certain elements from the Book of Common Prayer tradition interwoven into it, which itself goes back half a millennium. The Sarum Rite, which is used by many in ROCOR, is but another Gregorian Use that goes back even farther, almost 1,000 years. These are, without question, the most widely used liturgies in Western Orthodoxy, and they have been used for centuries upon centuries.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 12:31:15 AM »
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?

At least from my observations, it seems that the more common WRO liturgies are simply modern Western liturgies that have been "corrected" to make them more Orthodox, but don't represent any actual liturgy that was ever used by an Western Christians anywhere.

Quite incorrect. The Rite of St. Gregory is the liturgy that has been at the heart of Western European Christianity since the time of St. Gregory. The Rite of St. Tikhon is the same Gregorian liturgy, with certain elements from the Book of Common Prayer tradition interwoven into it, which itself goes back half a millennium. The Sarum Rite, which is used by many in ROCOR, is but another Gregorian Use that goes back even farther, almost 1,000 years. These are, without question, the most widely used liturgies in Western Orthodoxy, and they have been used for centuries upon centuries.

But those are both post-schism liturgies, correct? The benefit of the St. Germanus liturgy is that is of pre-schism origin.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 12:35:14 AM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 12:40:52 AM »
The Gregorian Rite goes all the way back to the 6th century, to St Gregory the Great, for whom it is named. The Tikhonian Rite is the same, with certain interpolations from the Scottish liturgical tradition, so it has "more" post-Schism elements, though both liturgies have some, being the living rites that they are. They both simply embody the Western Rite as it has existed throughout time, from the earliest centuries to the present day.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2011, 12:52:08 AM »
From what I've heard, the liturgy of St. Gregory is a modification of the Tridentine mass, with the filioque removed and a Byzantine epiclesis added.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 12:54:41 AM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2011, 12:55:03 AM »
Does anyone knwo anything about the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine ?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 03:35:13 AM »
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?

I am not a liturgical scholar, not in the slightest, but we have a hieromonk
in our Church in Australia who writes that he is a liturgical scholar and he
proffers his assessment of this Liturgy:

"I was recently sent a copy of a Liturgy that purports to be an English
translation of the Liturgy that the OCF introduced under Archbishop John
Maximovitch. (I understand that the sender (who was not OCF) calls it
"The Liturgy of St. Germanus of Paris". From what I've seen of the
Liturgy, (and I haven't had time to other than cursorily glance at it)
it seems to be somewhat of a latter-day hybrid, a pastiche, based on an
ancient description, and engineered to attract Byzantine liturgists into
thinking that it is genuine. It (ritually at least) appears to contain a
high percentage of modern Byzantine interpolation. I have no idea what
ceremonial is used with it - but I believe that modern-style Byzantine
vestments are often worn. Since they did not exist in the first half of
the first millennium, I don't see how even the most wishful thinking can
make them "Celtic" - any more than the wishful thinking which seems to
emanate from some twentieth century Iona-related sources can make the
early Celts some sort of fourth century presbyterians.

"Apart from being bad English - of no grace, it tells me that someone did
a great job of selling the Russians a bill of goods. I wouldn't defend
that Liturgy and I wouldn't use it. In that, I am agreed with Abbot
Silvano - it is a pastiche - put together in my view to placate the
Russians and make them think that the Gallican Liturgy was more
Byzantine than it ever was."
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 03:52:42 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2011, 03:52:12 AM »
Does anyone knwo anything about the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine ?

The same liturgical scholar, Hieromonk Michael Mansbridge-Wood, sees the the Lorrha-Stowe Missal as a form of the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine (Ephesine liturgy), being the form of liturgy which came into the British Isles.  There are websites where he speaks of this but, IIRC, no more than tantalising snippets.

Offline Michał

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Re: Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2011, 09:27:59 AM »
Does anyone knwo anything about the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine ?

Here is its text in English translation: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/liturgy-iii/