What is the OO View on RC Sacraments?

[Severian]

I know this isn't a case in point where the entire OO communion has reached a concensus. But how do the six OO holy sees individually view RC sacraments? Do we recognize their eucharist, priesthood, etc. or not?

[dhinuus]

I know this isn't a case in point where the entire OO communion has reached a concensus. But how do the six OO holy sees individually view RC sacraments? Do we recognize their eucharist, priesthood, etc. or not?

In the Syriac Orthodox Church, we have permission to receive sacraments from the RC or Byzantine Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, where ever a Syriac Church does not exists.

[Severian]

I know this isn't a case in point where the entire OO communion has reached a concensus. But how do the six OO holy sees individually view RC sacraments? Do we recognize their eucharist, priesthood, etc. or not?

In the Syriac Orthodox Church, we have permission to receive sacraments from the RC or Byzantine Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, where ever a Syriac Church does not exists.

I see... But if there were an OO parish around and you communed in an RC Church, would you be reprimanded?

Thanks for your input.

[dhinuus]

I know this isn't a case in point where the entire OO communion has reached a concensus. But how do the six OO holy sees individually view RC sacraments? Do we recognize their eucharist, priesthood, etc. or not?

In the Syriac Orthodox Church, we have permission to receive sacraments from the RC or Byzantine Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, where ever a Syriac Church does not exists.

I see... But if there were an OO parish around and you communed in an RC Church, would you be reprimanded?

Thanks for your input.

Honestly I don't know the answer to that.

[dhinuus]

if there were an OO parish around and you communed in an RC Church, would you be reprimanded?
Thanks for your input.

Honestly I don't know the answer to that.
I can try it out and let you know. I am in the US on an assignment and where I am, there is a coptic liturgy one week a month a syriac (malankara)) liturgy one week a month. There are RC and EO churches with liturgy every week and every feast day. May be next month when there is a coptic liturgy, I can skip that go to RC and then tell my priest and see how he responds I am just kidding, I am not going to try that.

[Father Peter]

I would not receive the sacraments in a Roman Catholic church, even though, in an isolated situation, if the Catholic Church in question was traditional, I would attend for prayer and fellowship.

I would not consider it appropriate for an Orthodox to commune in a Catholic Church, even though attendance in an isolated situation for prayer and fellowship in a traditional congregation might well be acceptable.

I think that in many of these cases the relatively modern history of relations between Catholics and Orthodox need to be explored to come to an understanding of how inter-communion is viewed.

I have been trying to find information about the early Franciscan visitors to Egypt and whether they were communed, and also the Cotpic visitors to Rome and whether they were communed. There was certainly an openness towards Rome in the Middle Ages. Nevertheless, since then, there have been greater departures from Orthodox practice among the Catholics and these need to be resolved, it seems to me, before anything other than an exceptional inter-communion of laity is appropriate.

Father Peter

[Severian]

^I agree. I really enjoy the more traditional Catholic Tridentine Mass and I would attend one if there were no Orthodox parish in my area. But I would not commune in a Catholic parish under any circumstance. The only time I might commune with them is if I were on my death bed and my Orthodox Spiritual Father insisted that I commune with them, in which case I would only be obeying my Priest, though I pray I am never in such a position.

[Severian]

I know this isn't a case in point where the entire OO communion has reached a concensus. But how do the six OO holy sees individually view RC sacraments? Do we recognize their eucharist, priesthood, etc. or not?

[Father Peter]

The various agreements between the Catholic and Coptic (and other Orthodox) show to me that there is certainly some sense in which there is a recognition of a mutual sacramental life, even if this might be considered partial and subject to some form of incoherence due to various theological and practical deficiencies which are considered to have developed in the Catholic communion.

Here are various statements signed by Popes of Rome and Alexandria and other primates which seem to me to describe a mutual recognition to some extent - such a mutual recognition is not the same as saying that there are no problems.

i. Pope Shenouda and Pope Paul VI. The divine life is given to us and is nourished in us through the seven sacraments of Christ in His Church: Baptism, Chrism (Confirmation), Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Matrimony and Holy Orders.

This could only be said by Pope Shenouda if he agreed that there was some life-giving quality to the Catholic experience of the sacraments.

ii. Patriarch Mar Ignatius Jacob III and Pope Paul VI. The Pope and the Patriarch have recognized the deep spiritual communion, which already exists between their Churches. The celebration of the sacraments of the Lord, the common profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God made man for man's salvation, the apostolic traditions which form part of the common heritage of both Churches, the great Fathers and Doctors, including Saint Cyril of Alexandria, who are their common masters in the faith all these testify to the action of the Holy Spirit who has continued to work in their Churches even when there have been human weakness and failings.

This describes an understanding of a common celebration of the sacraments as an expression of communion even while the separate celebration of the sacraments is a sign of disunity.

iii. Patriarch Mar Ignatius Zakka I Iwas and Pope John Paul II. The other Sacraments, which the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch hold together in one and the same succession of Apostolic ministry, i.e. Holy Orders, Matrimony, Reconciliation of penitents and Anointing of the Sick, are ordered to that celebration of the holy Eucharist which is the centre of sacramental life and the chief visible expression of ecclesial communion. .... Since it is the chief expression of Christian unity between the faithful and between Bishops and priests, the Holy Eucharist cannot yet be concelebrated by us. Such celebration supposes a complete identity of faith such as does not yet exist between us.

This seems to me to indicate a sense in which it is possible to have a shared experience of sacramental life, while also understanding that the fulfillment of that sacramental life is found in a wider unity between the local Churches. As an expression of this understanding of sacramental sharing even in separation, the Syrian Church has a positive attitude to some limited pastoral mutual access to the sacraments.

It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them.

iv. The International Join Commission issues a document in 2009 (This includes members of the Orthodox Churches including Metropolitan Bishoy). The Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church share the following constitutive elements of communion: they confess the Apostolic faith as lived in the Tradition and as expressed in the Holy Scriptures, the first three Ecumenical Councils (Nicaea 325 – Constantinople 381 – Ephesus 431) and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed; they believe in Jesus Christ the Incarnate Word of God, the same being true God and true man at the same time; they venerate the Holy Virgin Mary as Mother of God (Theotokos); they celebrate the seven sacraments (baptism, confirmation/chrismation, Eucharist, penance/reconciliation, ordination, matrimony, and anointing of the sick); they consider baptism as essential for salvation; with regard to the Eucharist, they believe that bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ; they believe that the ordained ministry is transmitted through the bishops in apostolic succession; regarding the true nature of the Church, they confess together their belief in the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church”, according to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. 

The constant use of the word 'they' seems to me to indicate that the members of the commission were describing what is to be understood as a shared experience.

Therefore, as long as fundamental disagreements in matters of faith persist and the bonds of communion are not fully restored, celebrating together the one Eucharist of the Lord is not possible.

This seems to me to be suggesting that the Catholic Church does celebrate the Eucharist of the Lord, in some real sense, but that what is lacking is a 'celebrating together' because of the disagreement in matters of faith.

I think that these documents allow us to see that our fathers do accept a genuine sacramental nature to the Catholic Church, but that the experience of that sacramental nature is mediated through a condition of separation from the integrity of Orthodox Catholic Church and Faith (this is my own evaluation). Indeed we know that many of the early heterodoxies were received into Orthodoxy without baptism because their own baptisms were considered to be a real baptism even if in a condition or situation of defective unity with the communion of the Church and with the totality of the Faith.

Father Peter

[Severian]

^Thank you for that very comprehensive answer, Father. So I suppose we can say that the RCC does have, to a degree, a grace-filled Eucharist, but that Rome's Eucharist ultimately lacks the fulness of grace found within Orthodoxy. So I suppose it would be appropriate to cross myself when passing an RC parish out of veneration for their Eucharist? This is what I do when I pass an Orthodox parish (whether EO or OO).

[Father Peter]

Well my own opinion is that I have a respectful and positive relationship with many Catholics. I consider them Christian. I consider that their sacraments are gracious - even if not necessarily in the same degree as the Orthodox experience - but this is to do with the context in which they are experienced not because I think Orthodox Christians are better than Catholic Christians. But I have to believe that there are aspects of Catholicism which are in error, and that many important spiritual practices have been forgotten or even rejected over the centuries. This has a serious effect on the context in which the sacraments operate - I believe. But this is, to some extent, the same as in Orthodoxy, where a corruption of the Church, through various effects, leads to some effect on the sacramental nature of the Church.

This is not relativism, because I am committed entirely to the Orthodox Faith and Tradition, but I am aware of the reality in which that Faith and Tradition is lived out in our own times. So I wish to be generous rather than liberal.

When I read of, for instance, the English martyrs who were tortured to death rather than abandon their Catholic Faith, I cannot help but be moved and find many connections between their faithfulness to death, and that of the early Christian martyrs. When I read about some of the great Catholic saints, I cannot but have some sense that in a situation where they could not easily, if at all, become Orthodox, they sought to live an heroic Christian life in the context in which God placed them.

This is not relativism, but it is in some sense a recognition that we are people who must respond to the Gospel in the situation in which we find ourselves. And it may be that in some sense (in general rather than in particular) there is a more coherent experience of the Grace of God in the sacramental life of Orthodox than in the sacramental life of Catholics, separated as they are from the integrity of the Faith and Tradition of the Church.

It would be my own practice to show respect in a Catholic place of worship. We are not honouring Catholics, but honouring God and respecting the intent of Catholic Christians to worship God. And although there are serious issues which remain to be resolved between Orthodox and Catholics, they are not so many and of such magnitude that we cannot say that we still share much of the same substance of Faith and spirituality, especially in regard to traditional Catholicism.

When the Pope of Rome came to England it was a national Christian event, and the Orthodox bishops were present at all the events, including the papal mass, in which they were given a place of honour beside the altar. Orthodox were glad, with their Catholic brethren, not least because a renewal and revitalisation of Catholicism in the UK helps Orthodoxy since it promotes what is still a traditional Catholic faith with much in common with Orthodoxy.

[JR]

Well my own opinion is that I have a respectful and positive relationship with many Catholics. I consider them Christian. I consider that their sacraments are gracious - even if not necessarily in the same degree as the Orthodox experience - but this is to do with the context in which they are experienced not because I think Orthodox Christians are better than Catholic Christians. But I have to believe that there are aspects of Catholicism which are in error, and that many important spiritual practices have been forgotten or even rejected over the centuries. This has a serious effect on the context in which the sacraments operate - I believe. But this is, to some extent, the same as in Orthodoxy, where a corruption of the Church, through various effects, leads to some effect on the sacramental nature of the Church.

This is not relativism, because I am committed entirely to the Orthodox Faith and Tradition, but I am aware of the reality in which that Faith and Tradition is lived out in our own times. So I wish to be generous rather than liberal.

When I read of, for instance, the English martyrs who were tortured to death rather than abandon their Catholic Faith, I cannot help but be moved and find many connections between their faithfulness to death, and that of the early Christian martyrs. When I read about some of the great Catholic saints, I cannot but have some sense that in a situation where they could not easily, if at all, become Orthodox, they sought to live an heroic Christian life in the context in which God placed them.

This is not relativism, but it is in some sense a recognition that we are people who must respond to the Gospel in the situation in which we find ourselves. And it may be that in some sense (in general rather than in particular) there is a more coherent experience of the Grace of God in the sacramental life of Orthodox than in the sacramental life of Catholics, separated as they are from the integrity of the Faith and Tradition of the Church.

It would be my own practice to show respect in a Catholic place of worship. We are not honouring Catholics, but honouring God and respecting the intent of Catholic Christians to worship God. And although there are serious issues which remain to be resolved between Orthodox and Catholics, they are not so many and of such magnitude that we cannot say that we still share much of the same substance of Faith and spirituality, especially in regard to traditional Catholicism.

When the Pope of Rome came to England it was a national Christian event, and the Orthodox bishops were present at all the events, including the papal mass, in which they were given a place of honour beside the altar. Orthodox were glad, with their Catholic brethren, not least because a renewal and revitalisation of Catholicism in the UK helps Orthodoxy since it promotes what is still a traditional Catholic faith with much in common with Orthodoxy.

Hello Fr Peter

Could you go in to a bit more detail on this point please? I am not sure what is meant by it.

I consider that their sacraments are gracious - even if not necessarily in the same degree as the Orthodox experience - but this is to do with the context in which they are experienced not because I think Orthodox Christians are better than Catholic Christians

[Father Peter]

I suppose I mean that God gives Himself to us graciously and freely but our reception of grace is mediated through circumstances, the state of our life, and the measure of our faith.

In the Catholic context I would have to say that the profession of what we consider to be error must have an effect on the reception of grace, and the adoption of what we would consider to be heterodox spiritualities and the rejection of aspects of Orthodox spirituality must also have an effect.

I am not making any sort of definitive or dogmatic statement, just suggesting that the heterodox nature of Catholicism from the Orthodox point of view must have an effect on the experience of grace. This is not to absolutely deny that God gives Himself, or that He can be experienced as life and life-giving in the Catholic communion, but that the fulness of that life is compromised and has been compromised.

Are there heroic souls who have overcome that compromise by holding on to an essentially Orthodox Tradition within Catholicism - perhaps. But in a general, and to take an example, the almost complete abandonment of fasting must have an effect on the reception of grace.

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