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Author Topic: List of terms of reunion with the Roman Catholics  (Read 10453 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: August 17, 2011, 01:04:50 PM »

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 01:11:37 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 01:10:35 PM »

So basically this will never happen except through Divine Intervention Smiley

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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 01:10:48 PM »

I think numbers #1 through 4 represent the main stumbling blocks.  If we were to ever work past those, then all of the other things which you mentioned would naturally be done away much quicker for a unity with the Orthodox.  Although I don't see how #12, or #5 make any difference whatsoever -- in regards to the Filioque as long as we understand that it does not carry the same meaning in Greek, as it does in Latin.  The Papal claims are more of an issue than the Filioque is..

I also honestly don't "get" #28 about Kneeling/Prostrating -- that doesn't seem to be a very serious obstacle to reunion.  Every culture that Christianity has come across had different ways of worshipping God.  I think we should allow the Latin Catholics to keep some of their cultural heritage as long as it does not compromise the faith. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 01:12:48 PM by AveChriste11 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 01:13:47 PM »

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)

Traditional forms according to whom? This is silly.

Quote
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy

A pre-schism Latin tradition.

Quote
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread

Also acceptable.

Quote
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh

You'll be disappointed to learn that this happens in Orthodox monasteries too.

Quote
19.   Sitting during worship

We may not like it, but is this really something to raise to a deal-breaker?

Quote
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means

Like it or not, we did that too.

Quote
21.   Legalistic theology

You'll have a hard time defining what exactly you mean and also proving that it hasn't been done to some degree in the Orthodox Church.

Quote
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)

Seriously? This is one of those nitpicks like "icons are written, not painted" that is actually just bogus.

Quote
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)

Another common Orthodox tradition.

Quote
27.   Use of statues ecclesiastically

Where are the universal canons against this?

Quote
28.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays

Get the GOA to stop first.

Why do you want to raise more barriers than there already are?
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 01:14:05 PM »

I think numbers #1 through 4 represent the main stumbling blocks.  If we were to ever work past those, then all of the other things which you mentioned would naturally be done away much quicker for a unity with the Orthodox.  Although I don't see how #12, or #5 make any difference whatsoever -- in regards to the Filioque as long as we understand that it does not carry the same meaning in Greek, as it does in Latin.  The Papal claims are more of an issue than the Filioque is..

The problem is, we can't even say the Spirit proceeds "through" the Son as through the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son. So in any aspect, the Filioque cannot even be a theologoumena. I forgot which podcast it was, but there was a podcast that explained this extremely well, it might have been Fr. Thomas Hopko...
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 01:17:38 PM »

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)

Traditional forms according to whom? This is silly.

Quote
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy

A pre-schism Latin tradition.
Condemned before the schism.

Quote
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread

Also acceptable.

Quote
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh

You'll be disappointed to learn that this happens in Orthodox monasteries too.

Quote
19.   Sitting during worship

We may not like it, but is this really something to raise to a deal-breaker?

Quote
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means

Like it or not, we did that too.

Quote
21.   Legalistic theology

You'll have a hard time defining what exactly you mean and also proving that it hasn't been done to some degree in the Orthodox Church.

Quote
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)

Seriously? This is one of those nitpicks like "icons are written, not painted" that is actually just bogus.

Quote
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)

Another common Orthodox tradition.

Not a dogma on penalty of hellfire.

Quote
27.   Use of statues ecclesiastically

Where are the universal canons against this?

Quote
28.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays

Get the GOA to stop first.

Why do you want to raise more barriers than there already are?
He's just listing them, not raising them. Though I don't agree with them all, I have seen them raised, some as long ago as a millenium ago, before 1054.
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 01:18:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Amen! Great least, we really appreciate the effort, much like with the OO-EO discussions, we should very much elucidate our misunderstood glossary conflicts, as often we are saying the same things in different ways.  I pray this thread and OP start a productive discussion on these matters, that we can elucidate the mutual definitions of each point within Orthodox and Roman Catholic, and see our sames more so than our differences, and also learn to mutually understand each others' perspective with respect, tolerance, and Christian love.


I'll start:

Original Sin:

While in Orthodox we do not maintain the concept or doctrine of Original Sin in exactly the same mathematical precision which the RC theologians have elaborated, surely in a practical, Scriptural, and Traditional sense we agree on the similar premise that our progenitors Adam and Eve committed the first "Sin" and this "Sin" had irrevocably been introduced to the common human experience.  Further, this "Sin" is now become almost inherent to our human nature, and we require the Grace of the Mysteries to bridge this gap of Sin and reconnect our lives with God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  There are mechanical and logistical differences to be sure, and the Mariological implications are also different, but these become as similar a semantics debates as Christology.  

I'd say that Original Sin is a concept easily reconcilable between RC and Orthodox in God's Grace and a prayerful effort on our parts.
The problem is, we can't even say the Spirit proceeds "through" the Son as through the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son. So in any aspect, the Filioque cannot even be a theologoumena. I forgot which podcast it was, but there was a podcast that explained this extremely well, it might have been Fr. Thomas Hopko...

This is semantics, in Essence the Holy Spirit IS the Father, so regardless of the concepts of Source, Sender, and Sent, (which are mechanics discussions) we both mutually agree in ESSENCE and NATURE that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE God, and are Consubstantial to each Person within the Mystery of the Trinity.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 01:22:45 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 01:24:06 PM »

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)

Traditional forms according to whom? This is silly.

Traditional forms according to Orthodoxy. Thankfully the westernized icons are disappearing in Greece, and hopefully that will continue in Russia as well. I know that devil Czar Peter I had a lot to do with it in Russia, but I dunno if they existed in Orthodoxy prior to him.

Quote
Quote
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy

A pre-schism Latin tradition.
And that makes it right? Like it says... Mandatory. There is nothing wrong with clerical celibacy as long as a Priest is permitted to be married and not required to be celibate.

Quote
Quote
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread

Also acceptable.
Not really either, there are Orthodox Saints and Councils condemning this practice.

Quote
Quote
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh

You'll be disappointed to learn that this happens in Orthodox monasteries too.
Yes I am, and it should not happen. Just because some Orthodox do does it make it okay? No, certainly not. Its a disgusting, heretical practice.

Quote
Quote
19.   Sitting during worship

We may not like it, but is this really something to raise to a deal-breaker?
Not all of these are deal breakers, but are things that they will have to do to become Orthodox again.

Quote
Quote
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means

Like it or not, we did that too.
Your point? I've actually seen Roman Catholics defending both the Crusades and the Inquisitions.

Quote
Quote
21.   Legalistic theology

You'll have a hard time defining what exactly you mean and also proving that it hasn't been done to some degree in the Orthodox Church.
You should know what I'm talking about here. The West has used extremely legalistic theology, it has to return to the Orthodox form, and stop being so legalistic about many things. Of course, a lot of this comes from St. Augustine's errors and the use of Latin (a very "legal" language), but its still wrong.

Quote
Quote
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)

Seriously? This is one of those nitpicks like "icons are written, not painted" that is actually just bogus.
Not necessarily talking about the use of the words, but rather how they are understood in each church.

Quote
Quote
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)

Another common Orthodox tradition.
Really? Tell me where we officially believe that Mary was assumed into heaven prior to her death? Orthodoxy has always maintained that she had to die, that she did die, and only afterwards was her body assumed into heaven.

Quote
Quote
27.   Use of statues ecclesiastically

Where are the universal canons against this?
You'll notice I removed this from the list, I didn't notice I hadn't already removed it.

Quote
Quote
28.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays

Get the GOA to stop first.
And we should...

Quote
Why do you want to raise more barriers than there already are?

I'm not, i'm bringing up legitimate barriers and errors by the Roman Catholic Church. Not all are deal-breakers, but all will need to change.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 01:26:24 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 01:27:38 PM »

I think numbers #1 through 4 represent the main stumbling blocks.  If we were to ever work past those, then all of the other things which you mentioned would naturally be done away much quicker for a unity with the Orthodox.  Although I don't see how #12, or #5 make any difference whatsoever -- in regards to the Filioque as long as we understand that it does not carry the same meaning in Greek, as it does in Latin.  The Papal claims are more of an issue than the Filioque is..

The problem is, we can't even say the Spirit proceeds "through" the Son as through the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son. So in any aspect, the Filioque cannot even be a theologoumena. I forgot which podcast it was, but there was a podcast that explained this extremely well, it might have been Fr. Thomas Hopko...

Perhaps you didn't word what you wanted to say accurately? No one ever said anything about proceeding through the Father.  Also, Father Thomas Hopko is just a priest -- and these things haven't been officially decided yet.  There are other Orthodox who do not feel it is such an issue, (i.e. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware).  It was created to deal with the Arians in Spain, and it worked -- now we can all move on to better things.. because the Greeks, Russians, and Antiochians will never have to say the Filioque in the Nicene Creed.  There would be no "Pope" to enforce such a thing.. because that would've disappeared by reunion.  
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 01:29:40 PM »

The problem is, we can't even say the Spirit proceeds "through" the Son as through the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son. So in any aspect, the Filioque cannot even be a theologoumena. I forgot which podcast it was, but there was a podcast that explained this extremely well, it might have been Fr. Thomas Hopko...

This is semantics, in Essence the Holy Spirit IS the Father, so regardless of the concepts of Source, Sender, and Sent, (which are mechanics discussions) we both mutually agree in ESSENCE and NATURE that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE God, and are Consubstantial to each Person within the Mystery of the Trinity.

But the Filioque is still an issue that has to be defended against.

A VERY good podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko regarding the Filioque:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_filioque
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 01:30:38 PM »

Although I don't see how #12, or #5 make any difference whatsoever...

With regards to 12:

Quote
Part of what icons are in the East is easier to understand in light of what happened to icons in the West, not only religious artwork but painting as a whole. What happens if you ask an art historian to tell the story of Western art after the Middle Ages, roughly from the Renaissance to the Neo-classicists?

The story that is usually told is a story of Western art growing from crude and inaccurate depictions to paintings that were almost like photographs. It is a story of progress and advancement.

Orthodoxy can see something else in the story. Western art became photorealistic, not because they progressed from something inferior, but because their understanding of symbol had disintegrated.

If a picture is real to you as a symbol, then you don't have to strive too hard to "accomplish" the picture, in the same sense that someone who has never gotten in trouble with alcohol doesn't have to make an unprovoked lecture on why he doesn't have a drinking problem. People who use alcohol responsibly rarely feel the need to prove that they don't have a drinking problem; it's someone who has a drinking problem who feels the need to make sure you know that his drinking is under control. People who don't have a problem don't feel the need to defend themselves, and artists and publics who haven't lost symbols don't feel a need to cram in photorealism. When Renaissance artists inaccurately portrayed the place of Christ's birth as having a grid of rectangular tiles, they were cramming in photorealism. It wasn't even that they thought they needed photorealism to make a legitimate picture. They went beyond that need to make the picture an opportunity to demonstrate photorealism, whether or not the photorealism really belonged there. From an Orthodox perspective the problem is not the historical inaccuracy of saying that Christ was born in a room with a tiled floor instead of a cave. The anachronism isn't that big of a deal. From an Orthodox perspective the problem is that, instead of making a symbol the way people do when they really believe in symbol, people were making pictures the way people do when the pictures are unreal to them as symbols. The artists went for broke and pushed the envelope on photorealism because the West had lost something much more important than photorealism.

Good Orthodox icons don't even pretend to be photorealistic, but this is not simply because Orthodox iconography has failed to learn from Western perspective. As it turns out, Orthodox icons use a reverse perspective that is designed to include the viewer in the picture. Someone who has become a part of the tradition is drawn into the picture, and in that sense an icon is like a door, even if it's more common to call icons "windows of Heaven." But it's not helpful to simply say "Icons don't use Renaissance perspective, but reverse perspective that includes the viewer," because even if the reverse perspective is there, reverse perspective is simply not the point. There are some iconographers who are excellent artists, and artistry does matter, but the point of an icon is to have something more than artistry, as much as the point of visiting a friend is more than seeing the scenery along the way, even if the scenery is quite beautiful and adds to the pleasure of a visit. Cramming in photorealism is a way of making more involved excursions and dredging up more exotic or historic or whatever destinations that go well beyond a scenic route, after you have lost the ability to visit a friend. The Western claim is "Look at how much more extravagant and novel my trip are than driving along the same roads to see a friend!"—and the Orthodox response shows a different set of priorities: "Look how lonely you are now that you no longer visit friends!"

Taken from: http://jonathanscorner.com/orthodoxy/orthodoxy2.html

Quote
I also honestly don't "get" #28 about Kneeling/Prostrating -- that doesn't seem to be a very serious obstacle to reunion.  Every culture that Christianity has come across had different ways of worshipping God.  I think we should allow the Latin Catholics to keep some of their cultural heritage as long as it does not compromise the faith. 

The canon that forbade kneeling on Sundays was written precisely to establish a common standard. Yes, kneeling does occur in some Orthodox Churches, which does contradict the canon, but it is still a canon. Of course, canons are not legalistic rules but rather flexible guidelines, but still, the spirit of canon was intended for no one to kneel on Sundays, as opposed to everyone following a local tradition.
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 01:31:41 PM »

I think numbers #1 through 4 represent the main stumbling blocks.  If we were to ever work past those, then all of the other things which you mentioned would naturally be done away much quicker for a unity with the Orthodox.  Although I don't see how #12, or #5 make any difference whatsoever -- in regards to the Filioque as long as we understand that it does not carry the same meaning in Greek, as it does in Latin.  The Papal claims are more of an issue than the Filioque is..

The problem is, we can't even say the Spirit proceeds "through" the Son as through the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son. So in any aspect, the Filioque cannot even be a theologoumena. I forgot which podcast it was, but there was a podcast that explained this extremely well, it might have been Fr. Thomas Hopko...

Perhaps you didn't word what you wanted to say accurately? No one ever said anything about proceeding through the Father.  Also, Father Thomas Hopko is just a priest -- and these things haven't been officially decided yet.  There are other Orthodox who do not feel it is such an issue, (i.e. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware).  It was created to deal with the Arians in Spain, and it worked -- now we can all move on to better things.. because the Greeks, Russians, and Antiochians will never have to say the Filioque in the Nicene Creed.  There would be no "Pope" to enforce such a thing.. because that would've disappeared by reunion.  

And the West should never ever say it in their Creed. They can't continue saying it if reunion is to happen. Like I've pointed out, it's been declared anathema and denounced by multiple Orthodox Saints and Councils. (not to mention several Popes prior to the schism)
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 01:37:11 PM »

Yes I am, and it should not happen. Just because some Orthodox do does it make it okay? No, certainly not. Its a disgusting, heretical practice.

Can you please cite where this has been condemned by:

a) Councils
b) the Church Fathers
c) Saints

Quote
Not all of these are deal breakers, but are things that they will have to do to become Orthodox again.

Those who sit during services are not Orthodox??
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)

Traditional forms according to whom? This is silly.

Traditional forms according to Orthodoxy. Thankfully the westernized icons are disappearing in Greece, and hopefully that will continue in Russia as well.
Is this "traditional" or not?


Quote
And that makes it right? Like it says... Mandatory. There is nothing wrong with clerical celibacy as long as a Priest is permitted to be married and not required to be celibate.

The Church condemns separating clergy from their wives. In the Western practice that developed clergy were not married to begin with. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's recognized as just a local tradition.

Quote
Not really either, there are Orthodox Saints and Councils condemning [unleavened hosts].

And there are (Western) Orthodox saints who used unleavened bread in the eucharist.

Quote
[Self-flagellation] a disgusting, heretical practice.

Why?

Quote
Not all of these are deal breakers, but are things that they will have to do to become Orthodox again.

So the GOAA is no longer Orthodox. Got it.
Quote
Your point? I've actually seen Roman Catholics defending both the Crusades and the Inquisitions.

I've seen Orthodox defending Justinian's persecutions. Does that place them outside the Church in your view?

Quote
Quote
21.   Legalistic theology
You should know what I'm talking about here.

Oh, I've heard all the buzzwords and sloganeering, but I've yet to see a demonstration of anything concrete.

Quote
Not necessarily talking about the use of the words, but rather how they are understood in each church.

What's the difference then?

Quote
Really? Tell me where we officially believe that Mary was assumed into heaven prior to her death?

Tell me where the Catholic Church dogmatically teaches this.
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 01:40:09 PM »

Dude this reminds me of something I read one time,

"Rome is right.. because.. uh... it says so!"  Cheesy laugh
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 01:42:41 PM »

The only time we kneel here at my parish, is when we say the prayer before communion.. with all of the "Amen's" and "I will not give you a kiss as did Judas.."  -- I can't remember the whole thing, it's very long.  We are part of the GOAA, therefore under Archbishop Demetrios.
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 01:44:14 PM »

The only time we kneel here at my parish, is when we say the prayer before communion.. with all of the "Amen's" and "I will not give you a kiss as did Judas.."  -- I can't remember the whole thing, it's very long.  We are part of the GOAA, therefore under Archbishop Demetrios.

According to the canons, we shouldn't do this on Sundays. But I wouldn't say the GOAA is no longer Orthodox because of it.
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 01:46:33 PM »

Concerning the Assumption of Mary - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

PP
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 02:01:15 PM »

So its permissible just because some in the GOAA do it? Do you forget how westernized some parts of the GOAA and the Church of Greece are? We need to purge ourselves of these disgusting western influences.

No kneeling on Sundays... No realistic/westernized icons... No self-flagellation...

Oh and as for self-flaggelation, tell me then why we condemn castration?

Isn't St. John Chrysostom's extreme fasting condemned because he caused harm to his own body?

Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas. It is an absolute shame that the churches in Greece and Russia have been so influenced by them. In Greece it was because they sold themselves to the disgusting Venetians (and others) to try to save themselves from the Turks, and in Russia it is because of devils like Czar Peter I who loved the west more than his own nation and faith.
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 02:02:14 PM »

Post your Theses on the Pope's facebook wall or whatever the kids call it.

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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2011, 02:05:47 PM »

So its permissible just because some in the GOAA do it? Do you forget how westernized some parts of the GOAA and the Church of Greece are? We need to purge ourselves of these disgusting western influences.

No kneeling on Sundays... No realistic/westernized icons... No self-flagellation...

Oh and as for self-flaggelation, tell me then why we condemn castration?

Isn't St. John Chrysostom's extreme fasting condemned because he caused harm to his own body?

Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas. It is an absolute shame that the churches in Greece and Russia have been so influenced by them. In Greece it was because they sold themselves to the disgusting Venetians (and others) to try to save themselves from the Turks, and in Russia it is because of devils like Czar Peter I who loved the west more than his own nation and faith.

Guess you better post them on the facebook wall of every Orthodox Bishop as well.

Where were you born? Do you have any idea what you mean by "Western"?

You do realize that very medium you are using is the product of the vile "Western" world?

You triumphalism has risen to incredible heights.

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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2011, 02:11:08 PM »

So its permissible just because some in the GOAA do it? Do you forget how westernized some parts of the GOAA and the Church of Greece are? We need to purge ourselves of these disgusting western influences.

No kneeling on Sundays... No realistic/westernized icons... No self-flagellation...

Oh and as for self-flaggelation, tell me then why we condemn castration?

Isn't St. John Chrysostom's extreme fasting condemned because he caused harm to his own body?

Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas. It is an absolute shame that the churches in Greece and Russia have been so influenced by them. In Greece it was because they sold themselves to the disgusting Venetians (and others) to try to save themselves from the Turks, and in Russia it is because of devils like Czar Peter I who loved the west more than his own nation and faith.

Guess you better post them on the facebook wall of every Orthodox Bishop as well.

Where were you born? Do you have any idea what you mean by "Western"?

You do realize that very medium you are using is the product of the vile "Western" world?

You triumphalism has risen to incredible heights.



Like I said...

Kneeling on Sundays...
Pews...
Realistic/Westernized Icons...
Self-Flagellation...
Some modern teachings regarding Bishops that have arisen... (can't really remember atm specifically)
etc...

Are all things that need to be removed from the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 02:18:56 PM »

So its permissible just because some in the GOAA do it? Do you forget how westernized some parts of the GOAA and the Church of Greece are? We need to purge ourselves of these disgusting western influences.

No kneeling on Sundays... No realistic/westernized icons... No self-flagellation...

Oh and as for self-flaggelation, tell me then why we condemn castration?

Isn't St. John Chrysostom's extreme fasting condemned because he caused harm to his own body?

Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas. It is an absolute shame that the churches in Greece and Russia have been so influenced by them. In Greece it was because they sold themselves to the disgusting Venetians (and others) to try to save themselves from the Turks, and in Russia it is because of devils like Czar Peter I who loved the west more than his own nation and faith.

Guess you better post them on the facebook wall of every Orthodox Bishop as well.

Where were you born? Do you have any idea what you mean by "Western"?

You do realize that very medium you are using is the product of the vile "Western" world?

You triumphalism has risen to incredible heights.



Like I said...

Kneeling on Sundays...
Pews...
Realistic/Westernized Icons...
Self-Flagellation...
Some modern teachings regarding Bishops that have arisen... (can't really remember atm specifically)
etc...

Are all things that need to be removed from the Orthodox Church.

What about Western Reformers? Do they need to go as well?

If so . . .
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2011, 02:29:57 PM »

Oh and as for self-flaggelation, tell me then why we condemn castration?

Those who castrate themselves are to be barred from the priesthood--those who have had castration forced upon them are not. In any case, it doesn't follow that if self-castration is to be condemned that self-flagellation is as well. It will depend on what definition you are using. It seems that you are condemning such activities across the board. Where does that leave St Seraphim of Sarov, who wore a heavy chain and knelt on a rock for 1000 nights?? Is that not self-mortification?? What about Eldress Maria, who gave a prophecy to the Tsarina in 1916 regarding the future martyrdom of the Imperial Family. "...she visited Eldress Maria Mikhailovna in her tiny cell, where the aged woman had lain for many years in heavy chains on an iron bed."

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Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas.

Death to the Internets!
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2011, 02:33:39 PM »

Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas.
Sigh. Disgusting?



I guess this just turns your stomach.
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2011, 02:36:38 PM »

Death to the Internets!

This I can get behind. Do you want to get together and discussing rolling out a website detailing our rationales and sell kids all sortsa chotchkies to they can proclaim their counter-cultural stance?

I am already working getting that locked down as a URL for every known blogging service, email provider, twitter account etc.

 
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2011, 02:39:25 PM »

Death to the Internets!

This I can get behind. Do you want to get together and discussing rolling out a website detailing our rationales and sell kids all sortsa chotchkies to they can proclaim their counter-cultural stance?
This one?
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2011, 02:46:09 PM »

Devin--When you lump everything together, as if they are all of equal importance, you are not going to get much agreement except from those who are opposed to reunion no matter what. Indeed, you run the danger of having looked far and wide to find the very last nail for the reunion coffin. Why not agree that some of the conditions re more critical than the others?
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 02:49:20 PM »

And there are (Western) Orthodox saints who used unleavened bread in the eucharist.

Care to point out some?

15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy

A pre-schism Latin tradition.
Condemned before the schism.

Agreed but still it's not a barrier for communion.

I think that terms for communion should be set to absolute minimum. Thus while I agree that pews, instruments, realistic art etc. are bad traditions I don't believe that they should hinder the restoration of communion.
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 02:58:19 PM »

Death to the Internets!

This I can get behind. Do you want to get together and discussing rolling out a website detailing our rationales and sell kids all sortsa chotchkies to they can proclaim their counter-cultural stance?
This one?

But updated to appeal to the virtual worlders who want to show their disgust at the virtual world  while living in it and via it.

Identity through consumption and branding.
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 03:04:20 PM »

Death to the Internets!

This I can get behind. Do you want to get together and discussing rolling out a website detailing our rationales and sell kids all sortsa chotchkies to they can proclaim their counter-cultural stance?
This one?

But updated to appeal to the virtual worlders who want to show their disgust at the virtual world  while living in it and via it.

Identity through consumption and branding.
So like this one, but virtual and badass?
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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 03:13:08 PM »

Death to the Internets!

This I can get behind. Do you want to get together and discussing rolling out a website detailing our rationales and sell kids all sortsa chotchkies to they can proclaim their counter-cultural stance?
This one?

But updated to appeal to the virtual worlders who want to show their disgust at the virtual world  while living in it and via it.

Identity through consumption and branding.
So like this one, but virtual and badass?

Shrewd, my friend. Shrewd . . .
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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2011, 03:14:11 PM »


Quote
Quote
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh

You'll be disappointed to learn that this happens in Orthodox monasteries too.
Yes I am, and it should not happen. Just because some Orthodox do does it make it okay? No, certainly not. Its a disgusting, heretical practice.

I guess we should just "de-canonize" all those stylites because sitting out in the elements for decades is a far more worse and disgusting physical practice than self whipping.

BTW, aren't those words too big?  Maybe you should write, "Hitting/Cutting Yourself".  That way more people will understand you.
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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2011, 03:15:17 PM »

So its permissible just because some in the GOAA do it? Do you forget how westernized some parts of the GOAA and the Church of Greece are? We need to purge ourselves of these disgusting western influences.

No kneeling on Sundays... No realistic/westernized icons... No self-flagellation...

Oh and as for self-flaggelation, tell me then why we condemn castration?

Isn't St. John Chrysostom's extreme fasting condemned because he caused harm to his own body?

Like I said, we need to absolutely purge ourselves of these various disgusting western innovations and ideas. It is an absolute shame that the churches in Greece and Russia have been so influenced by them. In Greece it was because they sold themselves to the disgusting Venetians (and others) to try to save themselves from the Turks, and in Russia it is because of devils like Czar Peter I who loved the west more than his own nation and faith.

Guess you better post them on the facebook wall of every Orthodox Bishop as well.

Where were you born? Do you have any idea what you mean by "Western"?

You do realize that very medium you are using is the product of the vile "Western" world?

You triumphalism has risen to incredible heights.



Stop using those big words.  He might have to look them up and he'll get cross about it.
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 03:16:29 PM »

The only time we kneel here at my parish, is when we say the prayer before communion.. with all of the "Amen's" and "I will not give you a kiss as did Judas.."  -- I can't remember the whole thing, it's very long.  We are part of the GOAA, therefore under Archbishop Demetrios.

Ave AveChriste! In my OCA parish, except for those who must sit down, we stand most of the time. Most folks sit down (on the floor or the pews against the sides of the church) only for the reading of the Epistle and during the sermon, even though it is permissible to sit during the antiphons.

Regarding kneeling, we kneel only during the kneeling prayers after Pentecost, which are done right after DL to catch the largest possible number of participants. At other times, after making the sign of the cross, we either bow down from the waist, touching the floor with our right hand, or we prostrate ourselves (but never on Sunday). The closest we get to kneeling is when some of us kind of flex our knees so that the priest does not have to strain to put Communion in our mouths.

We say the following short prayers before communion:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. Moreover, I believe that this is truly thine immaculate Body and that this is truly thy most precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, in word or in deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And grant that I may partake of thy Holy Mysteries without condemnation, for the remission of sins and for life everlasting.

Of thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, today admit me a partaker, for I will not tell of thy Mysteries unto thine enemies, neither will I give Thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief do I confess Thee: remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom; remember me, O Master, in thy kingdom; remember me, O Holy One, when Thou comest into thy kingdom. Not for judgment nor for condemnation be the partaking of thy Holy Mysteries unto me, O Lord, but for healing of soul and body.

Of course, words are not adequate to describe our more of worship, which is slightly different than some other jurisdictions an d it may be a good thing if you could come and see one day.
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 03:17:31 PM »

With reference to 10.   Purgatory and Indulgences:
From my understanding of it, if you eliminate Purgatory, you would have only heaven or hell. Who then goes to heaven, and who goes to hell? For example, if you are guilty of a lessor sin, would you then go to heaven anyway, regardless of whether or not you had repented of it? Suppose that you had picked a flower in a park, where the sign reads: Do not pick the flowers. Then you are guilty of the sin of stealing. Would you then go to hell and be subject to eternal and everlasting damnation and fire? It seems to me that there would be some lessor sins, that would call for a lessor punishment, a temporal state of cleansing, which is known as Purgatory by Catholics.
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 03:21:01 PM »

With reference to 18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass:
I would suggest that you first implement this regulation in the Orthodox Church before attempting to impose it upon the Catholics. I knew a case where a priest's wife had written to the bishop complaining of her husband's infidelity, and yet nothing was done, even after the divorce and remarriage.
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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 03:21:46 PM »

many of this "distinctions" existed way back before the 1054, but no one had anything against them... it was a sore of unity in diversion... the latins have a different culture than the easterns, and orientals , and so on...
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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 03:22:48 PM »

The only time we kneel here at my parish, is when we say the prayer before communion.. with all of the "Amen's" and "I will not give you a kiss as did Judas.."  -- I can't remember the whole thing, it's very long.  We are part of the GOAA, therefore under Archbishop Demetrios.

Ave AveChriste! In my OCA parish, except for those who must sit down, we stand most of the time. Most folks sit down (on the floor or the pews against the sides of the church) only for the reading of the Epistle and during the sermon, even though it is permissible to sit during the antiphons.

Regarding kneeling, we kneel only during the kneeling prayers after Pentecost, which are done right after DL to catch the largest possible number of participants. At other times, after making the sign of the cross, we either bow down from the waist, touching the floor with our right hand, or we prostrate ourselves (but never on Sunday). The closest we get to kneeling is when some of us kind of flex our knees so that the priest does not have to strain to put Communion in our mouths.

We say two two following short prayers before communion:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. Moreover, I believe that this is truly thine immaculate Body and that this is truly thy most precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, in word or in deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And grant that I may partake of thy Holy Mysteries without condemnation, for the remission of sins and for life everlasting.

Of thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, today admit me a partaker, for I will not tell of thy Mysteries unto thine enemies, neither will I give Thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief do I confess Thee: remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom; remember me, O Master, in thy kingdom; remember me, O Holy One, when Thou comest into thy kingdom. Not for judgment nor for condemnation be the partaking of thy Holy Mysteries unto me, O Lord, but for healing of soul and body.

Of course, words are not adequate to describe our more of worship, which is slightly different than some other jurisdictions an d it may be a good thing if you could come and see one day.


During a DL celebrated outside a Sunday we kneel during the Our Father during the Liturgy of gifts.

OCA Parish.

And by "we" I mean our Priest and some of us, too many pews for everyone to do it if packed. The kneeling is coupled with a bow of sorts.
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2011, 03:23:35 PM »

With reference to 10.   Purgatory and Indulgences:
From my understanding of it, if you eliminate Purgatory, you would have only heaven or hell. Who then goes to heaven, and who goes to hell? For example, if you are guilty of a lessor sin, would you then go to heaven anyway, regardless of whether or not you had repented of it? Suppose that you had picked a flower in a park, where the sign reads: Do not pick the flowers. Then you are guilty of the sin of stealing. Would you then go to hell and be subject to eternal and everlasting damnation and fire? It weems to me that there would be some lessor sins, that would call for a lessor punishment, a temporal state of cleansing, which is known as Purgatory by Catholics.

And we have Orthodox folks, to include some Saints, who believe in aerial toll houses that accomplish much the same thing. The problem is that in any reunion that may happen any such Roman dogma cannot be catholic, that is,obligatory for the whole Catholic Church.
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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2011, 03:24:17 PM »

With reference to 25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries):
I don't quite understand the big difference between the two.
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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2011, 03:26:04 PM »

With reference to 25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries):
I don't quite understand the big difference between the two.


I'm sure Devin with enlighten you with his newly acquired Orthodox phronema.
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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2011, 03:27:13 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an option, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2011, 03:30:02 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2011, 03:30:47 PM »

With reference to 25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries):
I don't quite understand the big difference between the two.


I'm sure Devin with enlighten you with his newly acquired Orthodox phronema.

And in "Dick and Jane" English so you won't get confused!
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Tags: ialmisry's b.s. 
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