OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 06:09:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: List of terms of reunion with the Roman Catholics  (Read 11319 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2011, 05:16:09 PM »

With reference to 14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
I kind of agree with this, except that do you consider Gregorian chant to be heterodox? Also, would you condemn the use of musical instrumentation, except for bells, at DL ?


Heterodox hymns?

Does that include all the beautiful Slavic/ethnic hymns that are sung at divine liturgies?...for one example?  And if they are to be preserved then what is wrong with theologically correct hymns from other WESTERN traditions:   Huh
Right. That would be my question on #14 also. Although I can see the objection to some of the more secular hymns as being irreverent to some extent.

Isn't "secular hymn" something of an oxymoron?
Yes, to some extent. I was thinking of the blasting rock music, with gigantic speakers and shirtless bearded longhairs, girls in short skirts and low cut blouses,  blasting away and singing and swaying with their guitars and electronic organs at the altar during a Mass.

If that were the norm, I'd worry.  But it is not.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2011, 05:18:01 PM »

Tiny aside here: in the U.S., we have a song called the "Battle Hymn of the Republic."  Smiley It may qualify as a secular hymn, if there can be such a thing. Although it is replete with religious imagery, it is not today confined to use by one church, but is almost entirely associated with marching bands and patriotic occasions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic

Yes.  And once I wrote an "Ode to Pansy"...Pansy being my cat.  One wonders if it qualifies as an Ode: strictly speaking.
Logged

88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2011, 05:45:26 PM »

Tiny aside here: in the U.S., we have a song called the "Battle Hymn of the Republic."  Smiley It may qualify as a secular hymn, if there can be such a thing. Although it is replete with religious imagery, it is not today confined to use by one church, but is almost entirely associated with marching bands and patriotic occasions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic

And completely unsuitable for Liturgical use.

(think about it, if a beautiful hymn like O Pure Virgin isn't permitted for liturgical use, why should anything that isn't even Orthodox be allowed?)
Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2011, 05:55:31 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,450



« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2011, 06:01:07 PM »

But on the ecclesiastical level, its absolutely disgusting and shouldn't have been permitted.
So if you walked into this church you would be filled with disgust?

Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 753



« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2011, 06:03:34 PM »

Like I said...

Kneeling on Sundays...
Pews...
Realistic/Westernized Icons...
Self-Flagellation...
Some modern teachings regarding Bishops that have arisen... (can't really remember atm specifically)
etc...

Are all things that need to be removed from the Orthodox Church.

I thought this topic was about what the Catholic Church would have to change in order to reunite with the Orthodox.  Now it appears that you have moved on to your personal agenda for Orthodox house-cleaning.  Plenty of Eastern and Western rite Orthodox churches have pews - what's the big deal?  Sounds like you would freeze Orthodox art, music, and architecture at some pre-conceived point in time.  That's a certain recipe for an ecclesiastical museum piece, not the living Body of Christ.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:04:58 PM by James2 » Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2011, 06:04:52 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?

I see you also ignore the posts of ozgeorge, Shanghaiski, Cymbyz, Habte, Robert W and FatherHLL...
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2011, 06:06:04 PM »

But on the ecclesiastical level, its absolutely disgusting and shouldn't have been permitted.
So if you walked into this church you would be filled with disgust?



Disgusted with the painting being in a church, yes... It is beautiful, but not befitting a church.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2011, 06:09:24 PM »

Like I said...

Kneeling on Sundays...
Pews...
Realistic/Westernized Icons...
Self-Flagellation...
Some modern teachings regarding Bishops that have arisen... (can't really remember atm specifically)
etc...

Are all things that need to be removed from the Orthodox Church.

I thought this topic was about what the Catholic Church would have to change in order to reunite with the Orthodox.  Now it appears that you have moved on to your personal agenda for Orthodox house-cleaning.  Plenty of Eastern and Western rite Orthodox churches have pews - what's the big deal?  Sounds like you would freeze Orthodox art, music, and architecture at some pre-conceived point in time.  That's a certain recipe for an ecclesiastical museum piece, not the living Body of Christ.

I never said freeze it. But there are certain boundaries which we must stay within. Western art and music are outside of those boundaries.

You act like you are trying to justify the West. Guess what? They are in schism from the Holy Church and cannot be justified.

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.

When we attend the Divine Liturgy, we are literally standing before the throne of God in heaven. To sit is to consider ones-self equal to God. (of course, economia is applied for the sick and infirm, but otherwise...) That is how the ancient Christians understood it, and that is how we should understand it.

We aren't the Roman Catholic Church, and we don't believe in their idea of doctrinal development. The church grows and some things change. But there are boundaries you must stay within. We don't completely bastardize our faith just because we think the Holy Spirit is guiding new innovations and developments.

Satan started misleading the Western Christians before the schism, and once they lost the armor of God given to the church, he started inflicting devastating wounds. It is the job of the Orthodox Church to help nurse those wounds inflicted on Western Christians, but that doesn't mean we allow those wounds to enter into our own body without being healed first.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:13:19 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2011, 06:12:28 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?

I see you also ignore the posts of ozgeorge, Shanghaiski, Cymbyz, Habte, Robert W and FatherHLL...

No, I read every post in that thread.

The point is that you implied that someone allergic to alcohol should still commune. This is is clearly not the case, as the thread I linked proves. People suffer anaphylaxis from the Eucharist. It happens.

Do you think that the OP of that thread should have kept communing his daughter?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2011, 06:14:42 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?

I see you also ignore the posts of ozgeorge, Shanghaiski, Cymbyz, Habte, Robert W and FatherHLL...

No, I read every post in that thread.

The point is that you implied that someone allergic to alcohol should still commune. This is is clearly not the case, as the thread I linked proves. People suffer anaphylaxis from the Eucharist. It happens.

Do you think that the OP of that thread should have kept communing his daughter?

Depends, as was said in the thread, they should find the cause of it from a doctor. Then they should consult their Priest & Bishop.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2011, 06:22:42 PM »

Wait, why are we hung up on kneeling on Sundays?

... (yes, I know there are canons) ...
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2011, 06:40:22 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Why would I want to test God? You know, testing God almost never ends up in a good way for the person testing him.
Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?

I see you also ignore the posts of ozgeorge, Shanghaiski, Cymbyz, Habte, Robert W and FatherHLL...

No, I read every post in that thread.

The point is that you implied that someone allergic to alcohol should still commune. This is is clearly not the case, as the thread I linked proves. People suffer anaphylaxis from the Eucharist. It happens.

Do you think that the OP of that thread should have kept communing his daughter?

Depends, as was said in the thread, they should find the cause of it from a doctor. Then they should consult their Priest & Bishop.

Why would I want to test God? You know, testing God almost never ends up in a good way for the person testing him.

Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2011, 06:43:56 PM »

Possibly, but how do you know this? I don't think it has ever been done with Orthodox sacraments.

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.

 Huh
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:44:48 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2011, 06:46:55 PM »

Musical instruments and dancing - is outrage!
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2011, 06:48:10 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?

I see you also ignore the posts of ozgeorge, Shanghaiski, Cymbyz, Habte, Robert W and FatherHLL...

You really have some trouble reading a single post, be careful with an entire thread. Did you actually read what happened?

Dude, I thought you might be doing some ol' fashion'd pot stirrin'. But it looks like you are in earnest.

That is unfortunate. Best of luck on your Crusade. I advise watching the following before you go out claiming more land for your religion:



Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2011, 06:49:12 PM »


Disgusting! How dare they celebrate Christ's resurrection in such a manner? Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:51:07 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Xenia1918
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Praying for Divine guidance
Posts: 569



« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2011, 06:52:06 PM »

#2, 6 and 7 will never be repealed because they were declared as de fide dogmas, which Catholics must believe on pain of mortal sin.

Then again, the novus ordo church of the people of God (which passes for the Roman Catholic Church since Vatican II) might very well change it. They've changed almost everything else authentically Roman Catholic. Grin
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:53:11 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2011, 06:52:17 PM »


Nice! Melodist! This reminds me of something I've been wanting to post around here.

Great video.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2011, 06:53:50 PM »

Beautiful.
Logged
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2011, 06:54:13 PM »

Possibly, but how do you know this? I don't think it has ever been done with Orthodox sacraments.

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.

 Huh

Well some one can follow this thread and is actually reading your words Devin, that makes things more problematic for you.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:55:09 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2011, 07:35:50 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2011, 07:36:05 PM »

Possibly, but how do you know this? I don't think it has ever been done with Orthodox sacraments.

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.

 Huh

Well some one can follow this thread and is actually reading your words Devin, that makes things more problematic for you.

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2011, 07:37:41 PM »


Did I ever mention musical instruments and dancing?

BTW, I love that video, it is on my IPod.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2011, 07:38:48 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?

I would love to do just that, but I don't have the ability to do so. Some day, hopefully it'll happen.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2011, 07:40:34 PM »

Wait this looks like a Catholic NO Mass service?! What! No it is an Orthodox service!!!! Wow!!
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #116 on: August 17, 2011, 07:42:18 PM »

With reference to 4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants. I would not agree with this as a requirement to receive Holy Communion. It could be an alternative, but not a requirement. This is because some people, such as alcoholics, are unable to take alcoholic beverages.

Nein.

This is crazy. The amount of alcohol you are going to get in Communing is almost nil.

No one is going on a bender after that. There is more alcohol content in many foods I have seen plenty of recovering "real" alcoholics, myself included eat and not go nuts.

Now, you might want to skip washing down the Eucharist with a gulps of the manny. But at my parish we don't even have that anymore.
For those who have a true alcohol allergy, less than an ounce of alcohol can send a person into anaphylactic shock.
I'm guessing you're one of them also that believes AIDs, the Flu, and other such illnesses can be transmitted through the Eucharist... Ugh...

How did this happen?

I see you also ignore the posts of ozgeorge, Shanghaiski, Cymbyz, Habte, Robert W and FatherHLL...

You really have some trouble reading a single post, be careful with an entire thread. Did you actually read what happened?

Dude, I thought you might be doing some ol' fashion'd pot stirrin'. But it looks like you are in earnest.

That is unfortunate. Best of luck on your Crusade. I advise watching the following before you go out claiming more land for your religion:]

I did read what happened and the decision that was made. It didn't contradict anything I said, or those I mentioned said... Funny how you were at odds with them even in that thread. Why does it seem that you always seem to find yourself at odds with traditional Orthodox beliefs and teachings? Are you afraid of unconditionally accepting our beliefs and teachings and accepting the wisdom of Christ's Church?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 07:42:38 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #117 on: August 17, 2011, 07:43:03 PM »

Possibly, but how do you know this? I don't think it has ever been done with Orthodox sacraments.

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.

 Huh

Well some one can follow this thread and is actually reading your words Devin, that makes things more problematic for you.

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.

And yet, beyond claiming that there are differences in understanding, you have not yet explained what those differences are. What are the differences, in your mind, between how the Catholics view their Sacraments and how the Orthodox view their Mysteries?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #118 on: August 17, 2011, 07:43:13 PM »

Wait this looks like a Catholic NO Mass service?! What! No it is an Orthodox service!!!! Wow!!

No it most certainly doesn't, it is far more beautiful than the Novus Ordo.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #119 on: August 17, 2011, 07:45:12 PM »

Possibly, but how do you know this? I don't think it has ever been done with Orthodox sacraments.

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.

 Huh

Well some one can follow this thread and is actually reading your words Devin, that makes things more problematic for you.

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.
What exactly is the problem, then.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2011, 07:45:21 PM »

Possibly, but how do you know this? I don't think it has ever been done with Orthodox sacraments.

I tried to compile some areas that we feel that the Roman Catholics need to change if union is ever to happen. This isn't a concrete list, nor is it comprehensive.

Repudiate/Reject:
1.   Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2.   Papal Infallibility
3.   Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4.   Development of Doctrine (as seen by the West)
5.   The Filioque
6.   Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation” (I’m told the RCC no longer believes this)
7.   The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8.   Divine Simplicity
9.   Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10.   Purgatory and Indulgences
11.   Created grace (vs. uncreated)
12.   Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13.   Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14.   Adoption of secular/heterodox music into liturgical worship.
15.   Mandatory clerical celibacy
16.   Use of Unleavened Bread
17.   Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18.   Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
19.   Sitting during worship
20.   Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
21.   Legalistic theology
22.   Faith built on science/reason
23.   Satisfaction theory of atonement
24.   Transubstantiation as dogma
25.   Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
26.   Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
27.   Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays
28.   Thomism and St. Augustine’s errors.

Accept/Restore:
1.   The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2.   The Essence/Energies distinction
3.   Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4.   Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5.   Pre-Tridentine and Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6.   Praying to the liturgical East
7.   Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8.   Canons as guide rather than law (related to 22)
9.   Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter

I got some of the list from:
http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/het...---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Also, some points come from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false
and can be seen at the very bottom of the page.

Lastly, more points are found here:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I know that it seems that many of these points might seem minor, but they all contributed (and still contribute) to the division, and in fact, were denounced at many Orthodox Councils and by many Orthodox Saints.

 Huh

Well some one can follow this thread and is actually reading your words Devin, that makes things more problematic for you.

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.

And yet, beyond claiming that there are differences in understanding, you have not yet explained what those differences are. What are the differences, in your mind, between how the Catholics view their Sacraments and how the Orthodox view their Mysteries?

You might want to read this:

Quote
Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics recognize at least seven Sacraments or Mysteries: The Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation, Ordination, Penance, Marriage and Holy Oil for the sick (which the Latins have traditionally called "Extreme Unction" and reserved for the dying).

Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."

At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.

The Orthodox call the Eucharist "the mystical Supper." What the priest and the faithful consume is mysteriously the Body and Blood of Christ. We receive Him under the forms of bread and wine, because it would be wholly repugnant to eat "real" human flesh and drink "real" human blood.

According to Roman Catholic teachings about the Sacraments (mystagogy), a person becomes a member of the Church through Baptism. "Original sin" is washed away. Orthodoxy teaches the same, but the idea of an "original sin" or "inherited guilt" (from Adam) has no part in her thinking. More will be said later on this matter.

Roman Catholics speak of "Confirmation" and the Orthodox of "Chrismation." "Confirmation" is separated from the Baptism and is performed by the bishop and not the priest; but "Chrismation" is performed with Baptism by a priest who has received "chrism" from the bishop. The Sacrament of "Confirmation" and "Chrismation" both mean the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Latins delay "confirming" (with "first communion") baptized infants not more than seven years, that is, until the time they have some appreciation of the gift of God.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

Ordination is the ceremony which, by the grace and calling of God, elevates a man to the priesthood. The sacerdotal priesthood has three orders: Bishop, presbyter (elder) and deacon. All Christians are priests by virtue of the baptism into Christ Who is priest, prophet and king - for which reason St. Peter refers to the Church as a "royal priesthood" (I Pet. 2:9). The bishop is the "high priest," the "president of the Eucharist and all the Mysteries. Presbyters and deacons are his assistants. The Latins hold that the presbyter acts "in the person of Christ" when, in fact, he does no more than represent the bishop who is "the living icon of Christ."

Strictly speaking, Penance - sometimes called "Confession" - should only be received by the believer as a means of re-admission to the Church. For a long time, Penance, or confession of sins, prayer and fasting was employed only for those who had been expelled from the Church ("excommunication") or who had voluntarily departed (apostasy). The present practice is to receive Penance from a bishop or presbyter for some serious sin before receiving Holy Communion.

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider Penance as a Sacrament. Each has different customs surrounding it, such as the confessional booth so common among the latter.

For Roman Catholics, Holy Matrimony is a binding, ostensibly an unbreakable, contract. The man and the woman marry each other with the "church" (bishop or priest) standing as a witness to it. Hence, no divorce under any conditions - no divorce but annulment of the marriage contract if some canonical defect in it may be found which renders it null and void (as if it never took place).

In Orthodoxy, Holy Matrimony is not a contract; it is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman - in imitation of Christ and the Church - in the presence of "the whole People of God" through her bishop or his presbyter. Divorce is likewise forbidden, but, as a concession to human weakness, it is allowed for adultery. Second and third marriages are permitted - not as a legal matter - out of mercy, a further concession to human weakness (e.g., after the death of a spouse). This Sacrament, as all Sacraments or Mysteries, is completed by the Eucharist, as St. Dionysius the Areopagite says.

As already mentioned, the Latins conceive Extreme Unction as the final Sacrament, the Sacrament which prepares the believer for death, purgatory and the Age to Come. In Orthodoxy, Holy Oil is received for healing. Often sickness is caused by sin; therefore, Holy Oil or Unction involved Confession of sins. At the end of the rite, the anointed receives Holy Communion.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes kingship, monasticism, blessings of the water, etc. as Mysteries.

Father Michael Azkoul

St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2011, 07:51:51 PM »

Wait this looks like a Catholic NO Mass service?! What! No it is an Orthodox service!!!! Wow!!

No it most certainly doesn't, it is far more beautiful than the Novus Ordo.

Devin, there are some videos on youtube of the Novus Ordo Mass being celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, in Gregorian chant, with the use of incense, without altar girls or "extraordinary" lay ministers. I'll find some for you once I get home from work if you'd like.

Is it safe to assume your quarrel is with the abuse of the freedoms allowed to the Roman Church's priests under the Novus Ordo rubrics rather than with the Mass itself?
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2011, 07:52:34 PM »

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.

And yet, beyond claiming that there are differences in understanding, you have not yet explained what those differences are. What are the differences, in your mind, between how the Catholics view their Sacraments and how the Orthodox view their Mysteries?

You might want to read this:

Quote
Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics recognize at least seven Sacraments or Mysteries: The Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation, Ordination, Penance, Marriage and Holy Oil for the sick (which the Latins have traditionally called "Extreme Unction" and reserved for the dying).

Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."

At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.

The Orthodox call the Eucharist "the mystical Supper." What the priest and the faithful consume is mysteriously the Body and Blood of Christ. We receive Him under the forms of bread and wine, because it would be wholly repugnant to eat "real" human flesh and drink "real" human blood.

According to Roman Catholic teachings about the Sacraments (mystagogy), a person becomes a member of the Church through Baptism. "Original sin" is washed away. Orthodoxy teaches the same, but the idea of an "original sin" or "inherited guilt" (from Adam) has no part in her thinking. More will be said later on this matter.

Roman Catholics speak of "Confirmation" and the Orthodox of "Chrismation." "Confirmation" is separated from the Baptism and is performed by the bishop and not the priest; but "Chrismation" is performed with Baptism by a priest who has received "chrism" from the bishop. The Sacrament of "Confirmation" and "Chrismation" both mean the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Latins delay "confirming" (with "first communion") baptized infants not more than seven years, that is, until the time they have some appreciation of the gift of God.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

Ordination is the ceremony which, by the grace and calling of God, elevates a man to the priesthood. The sacerdotal priesthood has three orders: Bishop, presbyter (elder) and deacon. All Christians are priests by virtue of the baptism into Christ Who is priest, prophet and king - for which reason St. Peter refers to the Church as a "royal priesthood" (I Pet. 2:9). The bishop is the "high priest," the "president of the Eucharist and all the Mysteries. Presbyters and deacons are his assistants. The Latins hold that the presbyter acts "in the person of Christ" when, in fact, he does no more than represent the bishop who is "the living icon of Christ."

Strictly speaking, Penance - sometimes called "Confession" - should only be received by the believer as a means of re-admission to the Church. For a long time, Penance, or confession of sins, prayer and fasting was employed only for those who had been expelled from the Church ("excommunication") or who had voluntarily departed (apostasy). The present practice is to receive Penance from a bishop or presbyter for some serious sin before receiving Holy Communion.

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider Penance as a Sacrament. Each has different customs surrounding it, such as the confessional booth so common among the latter.

For Roman Catholics, Holy Matrimony is a binding, ostensibly an unbreakable, contract. The man and the woman marry each other with the "church" (bishop or priest) standing as a witness to it. Hence, no divorce under any conditions - no divorce but annulment of the marriage contract if some canonical defect in it may be found which renders it null and void (as if it never took place).

In Orthodoxy, Holy Matrimony is not a contract; it is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman - in imitation of Christ and the Church - in the presence of "the whole People of God" through her bishop or his presbyter. Divorce is likewise forbidden, but, as a concession to human weakness, it is allowed for adultery. Second and third marriages are permitted - not as a legal matter - out of mercy, a further concession to human weakness (e.g., after the death of a spouse). This Sacrament, as all Sacraments or Mysteries, is completed by the Eucharist, as St. Dionysius the Areopagite says.

As already mentioned, the Latins conceive Extreme Unction as the final Sacrament, the Sacrament which prepares the believer for death, purgatory and the Age to Come. In Orthodoxy, Holy Oil is received for healing. Often sickness is caused by sin; therefore, Holy Oil or Unction involved Confession of sins. At the end of the rite, the anointed receives Holy Communion.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes kingship, monasticism, blessings of the water, etc. as Mysteries.

Father Michael Azkoul

St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Ok, but what makes the Catholic understanding defective? What in your grand opinion must change about the Catholic view of the Sacraments?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2011, 07:55:23 PM »

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.

And yet, beyond claiming that there are differences in understanding, you have not yet explained what those differences are. What are the differences, in your mind, between how the Catholics view their Sacraments and how the Orthodox view their Mysteries?

You might want to read this:

Quote
Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics recognize at least seven Sacraments or Mysteries: The Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation, Ordination, Penance, Marriage and Holy Oil for the sick (which the Latins have traditionally called "Extreme Unction" and reserved for the dying).

Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."

At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.

The Orthodox call the Eucharist "the mystical Supper." What the priest and the faithful consume is mysteriously the Body and Blood of Christ. We receive Him under the forms of bread and wine, because it would be wholly repugnant to eat "real" human flesh and drink "real" human blood.

According to Roman Catholic teachings about the Sacraments (mystagogy), a person becomes a member of the Church through Baptism. "Original sin" is washed away. Orthodoxy teaches the same, but the idea of an "original sin" or "inherited guilt" (from Adam) has no part in her thinking. More will be said later on this matter.

Roman Catholics speak of "Confirmation" and the Orthodox of "Chrismation." "Confirmation" is separated from the Baptism and is performed by the bishop and not the priest; but "Chrismation" is performed with Baptism by a priest who has received "chrism" from the bishop. The Sacrament of "Confirmation" and "Chrismation" both mean the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Latins delay "confirming" (with "first communion") baptized infants not more than seven years, that is, until the time they have some appreciation of the gift of God.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

Ordination is the ceremony which, by the grace and calling of God, elevates a man to the priesthood. The sacerdotal priesthood has three orders: Bishop, presbyter (elder) and deacon. All Christians are priests by virtue of the baptism into Christ Who is priest, prophet and king - for which reason St. Peter refers to the Church as a "royal priesthood" (I Pet. 2:9). The bishop is the "high priest," the "president of the Eucharist and all the Mysteries. Presbyters and deacons are his assistants. The Latins hold that the presbyter acts "in the person of Christ" when, in fact, he does no more than represent the bishop who is "the living icon of Christ."

Strictly speaking, Penance - sometimes called "Confession" - should only be received by the believer as a means of re-admission to the Church. For a long time, Penance, or confession of sins, prayer and fasting was employed only for those who had been expelled from the Church ("excommunication") or who had voluntarily departed (apostasy). The present practice is to receive Penance from a bishop or presbyter for some serious sin before receiving Holy Communion.

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider Penance as a Sacrament. Each has different customs surrounding it, such as the confessional booth so common among the latter.

For Roman Catholics, Holy Matrimony is a binding, ostensibly an unbreakable, contract. The man and the woman marry each other with the "church" (bishop or priest) standing as a witness to it. Hence, no divorce under any conditions - no divorce but annulment of the marriage contract if some canonical defect in it may be found which renders it null and void (as if it never took place).

In Orthodoxy, Holy Matrimony is not a contract; it is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman - in imitation of Christ and the Church - in the presence of "the whole People of God" through her bishop or his presbyter. Divorce is likewise forbidden, but, as a concession to human weakness, it is allowed for adultery. Second and third marriages are permitted - not as a legal matter - out of mercy, a further concession to human weakness (e.g., after the death of a spouse). This Sacrament, as all Sacraments or Mysteries, is completed by the Eucharist, as St. Dionysius the Areopagite says.

As already mentioned, the Latins conceive Extreme Unction as the final Sacrament, the Sacrament which prepares the believer for death, purgatory and the Age to Come. In Orthodoxy, Holy Oil is received for healing. Often sickness is caused by sin; therefore, Holy Oil or Unction involved Confession of sins. At the end of the rite, the anointed receives Holy Communion.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes kingship, monasticism, blessings of the water, etc. as Mysteries.

Father Michael Azkoul

St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Ok, but what makes the Catholic understanding defective? What in your grand opinion must change about the Catholic view of the Sacraments?

Did you read that article? And the differences between our understandings? THOSE are the problems they need to change.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2011, 08:00:36 PM »

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.

And yet, beyond claiming that there are differences in understanding, you have not yet explained what those differences are. What are the differences, in your mind, between how the Catholics view their Sacraments and how the Orthodox view their Mysteries?

You might want to read this:

Quote
Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics recognize at least seven Sacraments or Mysteries: The Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation, Ordination, Penance, Marriage and Holy Oil for the sick (which the Latins have traditionally called "Extreme Unction" and reserved for the dying).

Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."

At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.

The Orthodox call the Eucharist "the mystical Supper." What the priest and the faithful consume is mysteriously the Body and Blood of Christ. We receive Him under the forms of bread and wine, because it would be wholly repugnant to eat "real" human flesh and drink "real" human blood.

According to Roman Catholic teachings about the Sacraments (mystagogy), a person becomes a member of the Church through Baptism. "Original sin" is washed away. Orthodoxy teaches the same, but the idea of an "original sin" or "inherited guilt" (from Adam) has no part in her thinking. More will be said later on this matter.

Roman Catholics speak of "Confirmation" and the Orthodox of "Chrismation." "Confirmation" is separated from the Baptism and is performed by the bishop and not the priest; but "Chrismation" is performed with Baptism by a priest who has received "chrism" from the bishop. The Sacrament of "Confirmation" and "Chrismation" both mean the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Latins delay "confirming" (with "first communion") baptized infants not more than seven years, that is, until the time they have some appreciation of the gift of God.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

Ordination is the ceremony which, by the grace and calling of God, elevates a man to the priesthood. The sacerdotal priesthood has three orders: Bishop, presbyter (elder) and deacon. All Christians are priests by virtue of the baptism into Christ Who is priest, prophet and king - for which reason St. Peter refers to the Church as a "royal priesthood" (I Pet. 2:9). The bishop is the "high priest," the "president of the Eucharist and all the Mysteries. Presbyters and deacons are his assistants. The Latins hold that the presbyter acts "in the person of Christ" when, in fact, he does no more than represent the bishop who is "the living icon of Christ."

Strictly speaking, Penance - sometimes called "Confession" - should only be received by the believer as a means of re-admission to the Church. For a long time, Penance, or confession of sins, prayer and fasting was employed only for those who had been expelled from the Church ("excommunication") or who had voluntarily departed (apostasy). The present practice is to receive Penance from a bishop or presbyter for some serious sin before receiving Holy Communion.

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider Penance as a Sacrament. Each has different customs surrounding it, such as the confessional booth so common among the latter.

For Roman Catholics, Holy Matrimony is a binding, ostensibly an unbreakable, contract. The man and the woman marry each other with the "church" (bishop or priest) standing as a witness to it. Hence, no divorce under any conditions - no divorce but annulment of the marriage contract if some canonical defect in it may be found which renders it null and void (as if it never took place).

In Orthodoxy, Holy Matrimony is not a contract; it is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman - in imitation of Christ and the Church - in the presence of "the whole People of God" through her bishop or his presbyter. Divorce is likewise forbidden, but, as a concession to human weakness, it is allowed for adultery. Second and third marriages are permitted - not as a legal matter - out of mercy, a further concession to human weakness (e.g., after the death of a spouse). This Sacrament, as all Sacraments or Mysteries, is completed by the Eucharist, as St. Dionysius the Areopagite says.

As already mentioned, the Latins conceive Extreme Unction as the final Sacrament, the Sacrament which prepares the believer for death, purgatory and the Age to Come. In Orthodoxy, Holy Oil is received for healing. Often sickness is caused by sin; therefore, Holy Oil or Unction involved Confession of sins. At the end of the rite, the anointed receives Holy Communion.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes kingship, monasticism, blessings of the water, etc. as Mysteries.

Father Michael Azkoul

St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Ok, but what makes the Catholic understanding defective? What in your grand opinion must change about the Catholic view of the Sacraments?

Did you read that article? And the differences between our understandings? THOSE are the problems they need to change.
OK, I see it now. Sorry about that. I was distracted when I wrote the entry. Thanks.
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2011, 08:01:00 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?
It's pointless. Zeal without knowledge comes to mind. Now as if Devin is gonna be the one asked to set the condition if such re-union were to happen. It's just another virtual reality game of his. He likes playing those.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2011, 08:03:31 PM »

Not really my problem. Its not an issue of semantics, but how they are understood practically and theologically. Its not about whether to call them sacraments or mysteries.

And yet, beyond claiming that there are differences in understanding, you have not yet explained what those differences are. What are the differences, in your mind, between how the Catholics view their Sacraments and how the Orthodox view their Mysteries?

You might want to read this:

Quote
Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics recognize at least seven Sacraments or Mysteries: The Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation, Ordination, Penance, Marriage and Holy Oil for the sick (which the Latins have traditionally called "Extreme Unction" and reserved for the dying).

Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."

At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.

The Orthodox call the Eucharist "the mystical Supper." What the priest and the faithful consume is mysteriously the Body and Blood of Christ. We receive Him under the forms of bread and wine, because it would be wholly repugnant to eat "real" human flesh and drink "real" human blood.

According to Roman Catholic teachings about the Sacraments (mystagogy), a person becomes a member of the Church through Baptism. "Original sin" is washed away. Orthodoxy teaches the same, but the idea of an "original sin" or "inherited guilt" (from Adam) has no part in her thinking. More will be said later on this matter.

Roman Catholics speak of "Confirmation" and the Orthodox of "Chrismation." "Confirmation" is separated from the Baptism and is performed by the bishop and not the priest; but "Chrismation" is performed with Baptism by a priest who has received "chrism" from the bishop. The Sacrament of "Confirmation" and "Chrismation" both mean the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Latins delay "confirming" (with "first communion") baptized infants not more than seven years, that is, until the time they have some appreciation of the gift of God.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

Ordination is the ceremony which, by the grace and calling of God, elevates a man to the priesthood. The sacerdotal priesthood has three orders: Bishop, presbyter (elder) and deacon. All Christians are priests by virtue of the baptism into Christ Who is priest, prophet and king - for which reason St. Peter refers to the Church as a "royal priesthood" (I Pet. 2:9). The bishop is the "high priest," the "president of the Eucharist and all the Mysteries. Presbyters and deacons are his assistants. The Latins hold that the presbyter acts "in the person of Christ" when, in fact, he does no more than represent the bishop who is "the living icon of Christ."

Strictly speaking, Penance - sometimes called "Confession" - should only be received by the believer as a means of re-admission to the Church. For a long time, Penance, or confession of sins, prayer and fasting was employed only for those who had been expelled from the Church ("excommunication") or who had voluntarily departed (apostasy). The present practice is to receive Penance from a bishop or presbyter for some serious sin before receiving Holy Communion.

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider Penance as a Sacrament. Each has different customs surrounding it, such as the confessional booth so common among the latter.

For Roman Catholics, Holy Matrimony is a binding, ostensibly an unbreakable, contract. The man and the woman marry each other with the "church" (bishop or priest) standing as a witness to it. Hence, no divorce under any conditions - no divorce but annulment of the marriage contract if some canonical defect in it may be found which renders it null and void (as if it never took place).

In Orthodoxy, Holy Matrimony is not a contract; it is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman - in imitation of Christ and the Church - in the presence of "the whole People of God" through her bishop or his presbyter. Divorce is likewise forbidden, but, as a concession to human weakness, it is allowed for adultery. Second and third marriages are permitted - not as a legal matter - out of mercy, a further concession to human weakness (e.g., after the death of a spouse). This Sacrament, as all Sacraments or Mysteries, is completed by the Eucharist, as St. Dionysius the Areopagite says.

As already mentioned, the Latins conceive Extreme Unction as the final Sacrament, the Sacrament which prepares the believer for death, purgatory and the Age to Come. In Orthodoxy, Holy Oil is received for healing. Often sickness is caused by sin; therefore, Holy Oil or Unction involved Confession of sins. At the end of the rite, the anointed receives Holy Communion.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes kingship, monasticism, blessings of the water, etc. as Mysteries.

Father Michael Azkoul

St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Ok, but what makes the Catholic understanding defective? What in your grand opinion must change about the Catholic view of the Sacraments?

Did you read that article? And the differences between our understandings? THOSE are the problems they need to change.

Why? Is such uniformity necessary? The Church Fathers certainly never had such uniformity in their understanding of the sacraments, scripture, theology, etc.. Again, what makes their particular understanding defective rather than just different?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2011, 08:04:39 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?
It's pointless. Zeal without knowledge comes to mind. Now as if Devin is gonna be the one asked to set the condition if such re-union were to happen. It's just another virtual reality game of his. He likes playing those.

Zeal without knowledge? LOL...
I wouldn't exactly call listening to many Orthodox podcasts, reading many Orthodox books and articles on the issue a "lack of knowledge".
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2011, 08:11:53 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?
It's pointless. Zeal without knowledge comes to mind. Now as if Devin is gonna be the one asked to set the condition if such re-union were to happen. It's just another virtual reality game of his. He likes playing those.

Zeal without knowledge? LOL...
I wouldn't exactly call listening to many Orthodox podcasts, reading many Orthodox books and articles on the issue a "lack of knowledge".

This statement shows that you have much to learn...
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2011, 08:14:12 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?
It's pointless. Zeal without knowledge comes to mind. Now as if Devin is gonna be the one asked to set the condition if such re-union were to happen. It's just another virtual reality game of his. He likes playing those.

Zeal without knowledge? LOL...
I wouldn't exactly call listening to many Orthodox podcasts, reading many Orthodox books and articles on the issue a "lack of knowledge".

This statement shows that you have much to learn...

From who? You think I'm going to read Latin or Western sources on the issue? The only valid sources are Orthodox ones, or ones favorable to the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:16:18 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2011, 08:19:18 PM »

Pews come from the Protestants, not from the Orthodox. They come from a misunderstanding of the services, and from a faulty theology. They have no place in Orthodox Churches.
There are pews in many Orthodox Churches in the USA. Why don't you first try to convince your Orthodox faithful that pews have no places in your Churches before attempting to require this rule on Roman Catholics who desire reunion with the Orthodox?
It's pointless. Zeal without knowledge comes to mind. Now as if Devin is gonna be the one asked to set the condition if such re-union were to happen. It's just another virtual reality game of his. He likes playing those.

Zeal without knowledge? LOL...
I wouldn't exactly call listening to many Orthodox podcasts, reading many Orthodox books and articles on the issue a "lack of knowledge".

This statement shows that you have much to learn...

From who? You think I'm going to read Latin or Western sources on the issue? The only valid sources are Orthodox ones, or ones favorable to the Orthodox Church.

Until you can learn humility, what can those books teach you?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2011, 08:27:49 PM »

I now predict that chances are high that on poster in this thread is gonna burn out within the next few years. That,s how the game ends, most of the time.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2011, 08:31:48 PM »

I now predict that chances are high that on poster in this thread is gonna burn out within the next few years. That,s how the game ends, most of the time.
Not really, I guarantee you that won't happen.
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2011, 08:34:22 PM »

I now predict that chances are high that on poster in this thread is gonna burn out within the next few years. That,s how the game ends, most of the time.
Not really, I guarantee you that won't happen.
If that's not gonna happen, then it's gonna be because you'll mellow down.
Logged
Xenia1918
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Praying for Divine guidance
Posts: 569



« Reply #134 on: August 17, 2011, 08:40:46 PM »

Wait this looks like a Catholic NO Mass service?! What! No it is an Orthodox service!!!! Wow!!

No it most certainly doesn't, it is far more beautiful than the Novus Ordo.

Devin, there are some videos on youtube of the Novus Ordo Mass being celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, in Gregorian chant, with the use of incense, without altar girls or "extraordinary" lay ministers. I'll find some for you once I get home from work if you'd like.

Is it safe to assume your quarrel is with the abuse of the freedoms allowed to the Roman Church's priests under the Novus Ordo rubrics rather than with the Mass itself?

According to Pope St Pius V (Quo Primum), the Mass was never to be changed. Not only did the modernists in Rome change it, they changed the words of the Roman consecration, changing the very words of Christ Himself as well as the meaning, when they, in English, say "for you and for all" as opposed to "for you and for many'.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:41:53 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
Tags: ialmisry's b.s. 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.27 seconds with 72 queries.