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Author Topic: List of terms of reunion with the Roman Catholics  (Read 10486 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: August 18, 2011, 07:09:25 PM »

As for fasting and the date of Pascha. The latter is nailed down by an Ecumenical Council, and is one point that the Roman Catholic Church cannot keep as a local tradition, especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews. (which is forbidden by the Councils and our Canons)

And can you tell me which canon that would be? I've often heard of this mythical canon, but I've never seen it for myself.

The canons of Nicaea I state that the entire church should follow one rule for Pascha, and that it would be set independently of the Jewish passover, thus adopting the system the Alexandrian Church. It was several centuries later that the Alexandrian Church came to the method we have today, but since Nicaea I the Church has been following the calculations of Alexandria for setting the date of Pascha.

And so, I believe the actual computation method is up to the Patriarchate of Alexandria, but I don't believe there are actual canons which give the details of how that computation should occur. Still, the Roman Church (and some Orthodox churches) follow the Gregorian calendar for their Paschal calculations, in disobedience of Nicaea I.

Perhaps I should have been more clear; I was asking about this statement:

especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews.

I've heard of this legendary canon before, that condemns allowing Pascha to come before Passover (a common argument against the Gregorian Calendar), but I've yet to see evidence for its existence.

Edit: To clarify, my intent is not to be argumentative. If such a canon exists, then the Roman Catholic Church is indeed in grave error. I have, however, never seen an actual canon referenced; instead, I always see people claiming that, "a canon exists." Well, which canon is it?

Here you go:

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

It also might be in Nicaea or a subsequent council, but I'm not sure.

Ok, now the question is, how should one define vernal equinox? Are we talking about the equinox as being the day during the spring in the northern hemisphere when the day and night are of equal length, or are we talking about it being a specific date on the calendar? As you should well be aware, the date of the equinox is now nearly two weeks later on the old calendar than the actual occurrence of the equinox astronomically.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 07:10:03 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

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« Reply #181 on: August 18, 2011, 07:13:04 PM »

As for fasting and the date of Pascha. The latter is nailed down by an Ecumenical Council, and is one point that the Roman Catholic Church cannot keep as a local tradition, especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews. (which is forbidden by the Councils and our Canons)

And can you tell me which canon that would be? I've often heard of this mythical canon, but I've never seen it for myself.

The canons of Nicaea I state that the entire church should follow one rule for Pascha, and that it would be set independently of the Jewish passover, thus adopting the system the Alexandrian Church. It was several centuries later that the Alexandrian Church came to the method we have today, but since Nicaea I the Church has been following the calculations of Alexandria for setting the date of Pascha.

And so, I believe the actual computation method is up to the Patriarchate of Alexandria, but I don't believe there are actual canons which give the details of how that computation should occur. Still, the Roman Church (and some Orthodox churches) follow the Gregorian calendar for their Paschal calculations, in disobedience of Nicaea I.

Perhaps I should have been more clear; I was asking about this statement:

especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews.

I've heard of this legendary canon before, that condemns allowing Pascha to come before Passover (a common argument against the Gregorian Calendar), but I've yet to see evidence for its existence.

Edit: To clarify, my intent is not to be argumentative. If such a canon exists, then the Roman Catholic Church is indeed in grave error. I have, however, never seen an actual canon referenced; instead, I always see people claiming that, "a canon exists." Well, which canon is it?

Here you go:

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

It also might be in Nicaea or a subsequent council, but I'm not sure.

Ok, now the question is, how should one define vernal equinox? Are we talking about the equinox as being the day during the spring in the northern hemisphere when the day and night are of equal length, or are we talking about it being a specific date on the calendar? As you should well be aware, the date of the equinox is now nearly two weeks later on the old calendar than the actual occurrence of the equinox astronomically.
Correct. The astronomical equinox differs from the eccclesiastical one.
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« Reply #182 on: August 18, 2011, 07:19:24 PM »

As for fasting and the date of Pascha. The latter is nailed down by an Ecumenical Council, and is one point that the Roman Catholic Church cannot keep as a local tradition, especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews. (which is forbidden by the Councils and our Canons)

And can you tell me which canon that would be? I've often heard of this mythical canon, but I've never seen it for myself.

The canons of Nicaea I state that the entire church should follow one rule for Pascha, and that it would be set independently of the Jewish passover, thus adopting the system the Alexandrian Church. It was several centuries later that the Alexandrian Church came to the method we have today, but since Nicaea I the Church has been following the calculations of Alexandria for setting the date of Pascha.

And so, I believe the actual computation method is up to the Patriarchate of Alexandria, but I don't believe there are actual canons which give the details of how that computation should occur. Still, the Roman Church (and some Orthodox churches) follow the Gregorian calendar for their Paschal calculations, in disobedience of Nicaea I.

Perhaps I should have been more clear; I was asking about this statement:

especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews.

I've heard of this legendary canon before, that condemns allowing Pascha to come before Passover (a common argument against the Gregorian Calendar), but I've yet to see evidence for its existence.

Edit: To clarify, my intent is not to be argumentative. If such a canon exists, then the Roman Catholic Church is indeed in grave error. I have, however, never seen an actual canon referenced; instead, I always see people claiming that, "a canon exists." Well, which canon is it?

Here you go:

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

It also might be in Nicaea or a subsequent council, but I'm not sure.

Ok, now the question is, how should one define vernal equinox? Are we talking about the equinox as being the day during the spring in the northern hemisphere when the day and night are of equal length, or are we talking about it being a specific date on the calendar? As you should well be aware, the date of the equinox is now nearly two weeks later on the old calendar than the actual occurrence of the equinox astronomically.
Correct. The astronomical equinox differs from the eccclesiastical one.

Which is what Pope Gregory aimed to correct. So now we have to ask, did the Church Fathers set March 21 on the Julian Calendar as being the ecclesiastical vernal equinox as a matter of convenience or because it was a matter of grave spiritual importance? I highly doubt that it was the latter.
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« Reply #183 on: August 18, 2011, 07:19:53 PM »

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
.
I am not sure I understand this. For example, a while back, a Jewish friend once gave me a matzo cracker, which I ate. Does that mean then, according to apostolic canon 70,  that I am excommunicated and will go to hell for eating a matzo cracker?
Also for canon 7 : Jews don't celebrate Easter, so how can you celebrate Easter with the Jews?
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« Reply #184 on: August 18, 2011, 07:23:53 PM »

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
.
I am not sure I understand this. For example, a while back, a Jewish friend once gave me a matzo cracker, which I ate. Does that mean then, according to apostolic canon 70,  that I am excommunicated and will go to hell for eating a matzo cracker?
Also for canon 7 : Jews don't celebrate Easter, so how can you celebrate Easter with the Jews?

I guess that I too am going to burn in hell for eating some matzo ball soup at Katz's. I always figured that if I were going to burn in hell for eating something, it would at least taste good enough to justify the loss of my eternal salvation.
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« Reply #185 on: August 18, 2011, 07:24:09 PM »

Devin, I think the point they are trying to make is that reading smart books does not necessarily make one smart.

Wisdom. Let us attend.

Agabus my friend, don't be too harsh. It is the times.

Here is how things have devolved historically:

Wisdom is power.
Knowledge is power.
Information is power.
Access to information is power.

If it weren't for that latest development, most folks on the internet would be mute.
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« Reply #186 on: August 18, 2011, 07:25:14 PM »

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
.
I am not sure I understand this. For example, a while back, a Jewish friend once gave me a matzo cracker, which I ate. Does that mean then, according to apostolic canon 70,  that I am excommunicated and will go to hell for eating a matzo cracker?
Also for canon 7 : Jews don't celebrate Easter, so how can you celebrate Easter with the Jews?

It seems so, according to this canon!

And I'm pretty sure the canon is translating "Pascha" as Easter, meaning "Passover." Tongue
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« Reply #187 on: August 18, 2011, 07:35:27 PM »

Ok, now the question is, how should one define vernal equinox? Are we talking about the equinox as being the day during the spring in the northern hemisphere when the day and night are of equal length, or are we talking about it being a specific date on the calendar? As you should well be aware, the date of the equinox is now nearly two weeks later on the old calendar than the actual occurrence of the equinox astronomically.

Oh, how it warms my heart that some of the youth can hold the line and ground I selflessly do with sufficient reason and wit.

That I might go and put my effort to more worthy battles . . .

Many thanks lads.

*single tear*
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« Reply #188 on: August 18, 2011, 07:39:33 PM »

I guess that I too am going to burn in hell for eating some matzo ball soup at Katz's. I always figured that if I were going to burn in hell for eating something, it would at least taste good enough to justify the loss of my eternal salvation.

Only if you make a single mention of or allusion to When Harry Met Sally while there . . . And it ain't going to taste too good if I am around when you do, slapping the taste out of your mouth and all. //:=)

Carry on!
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« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2011, 08:19:46 PM »

As for fasting and the date of Pascha. The latter is nailed down by an Ecumenical Council, and is one point that the Roman Catholic Church cannot keep as a local tradition, especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews. (which is forbidden by the Councils and our Canons)

And can you tell me which canon that would be? I've often heard of this mythical canon, but I've never seen it for myself.

The canons of Nicaea I state that the entire church should follow one rule for Pascha, and that it would be set independently of the Jewish passover, thus adopting the system the Alexandrian Church. It was several centuries later that the Alexandrian Church came to the method we have today, but since Nicaea I the Church has been following the calculations of Alexandria for setting the date of Pascha.

And so, I believe the actual computation method is up to the Patriarchate of Alexandria, but I don't believe there are actual canons which give the details of how that computation should occur. Still, the Roman Church (and some Orthodox churches) follow the Gregorian calendar for their Paschal calculations, in disobedience of Nicaea I.

Perhaps I should have been more clear; I was asking about this statement:

especially since their calendar inevitably causes them to hold Pascha at the same time as the Jews.

I've heard of this legendary canon before, that condemns allowing Pascha to come before Passover (a common argument against the Gregorian Calendar), but I've yet to see evidence for its existence.

Edit: To clarify, my intent is not to be argumentative. If such a canon exists, then the Roman Catholic Church is indeed in grave error. I have, however, never seen an actual canon referenced; instead, I always see people claiming that, "a canon exists." Well, which canon is it?

Here you go:

Apostolic Canon 7:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Apostolic Canon 70:
"If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated."
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

It also might be in Nicaea or a subsequent council, but I'm not sure.

Ok, now the question is, how should one define vernal equinox? Are we talking about the equinox as being the day during the spring in the northern hemisphere when the day and night are of equal length, or are we talking about it being a specific date on the calendar? As you should well be aware, the date of the equinox is now nearly two weeks later on the old calendar than the actual occurrence of the equinox astronomically.

I don't think the question is how we would define it today, but how they defined it back then, and that should be the rule.

Nevertheless, my point is that according to the Western calendar, and dating of Pascha, it usually (or almost always, if not always) aligns with Jewish Passover, which is forbidden.
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« Reply #190 on: August 18, 2011, 09:52:40 PM »

There is a difference between celebrating "with" and "on the same day as" someone. We celebrate the Eucharist on the same day as the Roman Catholics but not with them. The one canon makes a point to say "before the equinox" in it's prohibition. The point is we aren't supposed to rely on the Jews to set the date for our Pascha and we are not to join in their worship because they do not celebrate the resurrection.
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« Reply #191 on: August 18, 2011, 10:00:25 PM »

There is a difference between celebrating "with" and "on the same day as" someone. We celebrate the Eucharist on the same day as the Roman Catholics but not with them. The one canon makes a point to say "before the equinox" in it's prohibition. The point is we aren't supposed to rely on the Jews to set the date for our Pascha and we are not to join in their worship because they do not celebrate the resurrection.

That is how I understood it. The claim which says that canon invalidates the Gregorian Calendar is weak at best.
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« Reply #192 on: August 18, 2011, 10:30:56 PM »

But should we really be relying on an english translation for the specifics like that?
(such as the word "with" in English, vs. what the Greek might be)

As I had said, shouldn't we try to figure out what they meant by it, and what the church fathers and saints say about it?
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« Reply #193 on: August 18, 2011, 10:57:56 PM »

But should we really be relying on an english translation for the specifics like that?
(such as the word "with" in English, vs. what the Greek might be)

As I had said, shouldn't we try to figure out what they meant by it, and what the church fathers and saints say about it?

Unless you presume to know what the Fathers and the Saints say about it, why would you have that as one of your conditions for reunification?
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« Reply #194 on: August 18, 2011, 11:02:39 PM »

Recently, I traveled to Ukraine and had a chance to talk with a number of Ukrainian Orthodox theologians as well as a number of Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholic theologians.

What all of them say, essentially, is this:

1. Each party must - really MUST, absolutely HAS TO - admit its own fault and guilt for the schism. Indeed, any more or less objective look at real history inevitably leads to the conclusion that nothing serious happened in 1054. Both parties, the "Latins" and the East, had already been bitching with their counterpart for several centuries. The idiotic march of the papal legates to Hagia Sophia and the dropping of the "bull" was nothing new. Very similar stupid, absolutely un-Christian moves had been made by both parties earlier. The problem was in the deep discrepancy in language, culture, historical circumstances, habits, customs etc. that had been already very visible since perhaps the 4th century if not earlier. By the 9th-11th centuries, the Latins showed a certain "imperialism," but also a much clearer and a much more unified perception of the doctrine than the heresies-torn East. On the other hand, the East showed a better pattern of following the original Christian ecclesiology, but also a humongous arrogance, which, according to what Fr. Alexander Schmemann states in his "Historical Path of Orthodoxy," made them think that they were above these un-cultured barbarians from the forests and marches of Gaul and Germany, and, that they - the Hellenes, the Philosophers, the salt of the earth... - therefore, should not fall as low as to challenge these barbarians to a systematic theological discourse. Over several centuries, no authoritative Eastern ecclesiastical figure challenged the West for the West's falling into "Papism." Instead, luminaries like St. Maximos the Confessor went out of their way praising the Pope of Rome as the ONE exclusive representative of the Church who has to be the arbiter in all matters of faith.

2. While in Catholicism the normal life of the Church is hampered by the absence of true "catholicity" (Slavic "Sobornost," i.e. the conciliar, rather than vertical-hierarchical, nature of the Church), - in the East it is not to any lesser extent hampered by the excess of "separte opinions." Catholics suffer from the lack of the "Church Law" - in their lives, this Law is replaced by voluntary decisions of the Pope and cardinals. Yet, in the Orthodox Church, the *supposedly* conciliar nature of the Church is replaced by a gazillion of separate opinions of the various priests and bishops that aren't being processed through any councils - either because these councils are seldom, if ever, summoned, or because the numerous matters are considered too small to be approached through councils. The sad result is that different priests and different bishops may well have, and EXPRESS (!) radically different views on the relations between Church and state, or on family planning, etc.

In general, we do not know, exactly, what these "terms of reunion" are; but we must stop seeing ourselves as the "right" party and our opponents as those who are in the wrong. If we keep doing that, i.e., being, essentially, PAGANS rather than Christians who are supposed to "take the plank out of our own eye" - we most certainly won't ever go anywhere, to the utmost triumph of this world with its Pagan mentality of "it's certainly me who is right."
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« Reply #195 on: August 18, 2011, 11:03:31 PM »

There is a difference between celebrating "with" and "on the same day as" someone. We celebrate the Eucharist on the same day as the Roman Catholics but not with them. The one canon makes a point to say "before the equinox" in it's prohibition. The point is we aren't supposed to rely on the Jews to set the date for our Pascha and we are not to join in their worship because they do not celebrate the resurrection.

Devin, you have roused an adversary you don't want. Some who is sincere and cares about you and knows more.

Good luck!
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« Reply #196 on: August 18, 2011, 11:05:30 PM »

Really though, I don't think that the EO-RC is ever going to happen. We can't even unite EOs with OOs, how then are you going to unite with a Church which holds a very different faith from yours?

Yeah, I know, I'm a pessimist...
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« Reply #197 on: August 18, 2011, 11:06:06 PM »

In general, we do not know, exactly, what these "terms of reunion" are; but we must stop seeing ourselves as the "right" party and our opponents as those who are in the wrong. If we keep doing that, i.e., being, essentially, PAGANS rather than Christians who are supposed to "take the plank out of our own eye" - we most certainly won't ever go anywhere, to the utmost triumph of this world with its Pagan mentality of "it's certainly me who is right."

Why are you bringing Christianity in this? This is about Devin's RCC and OC.
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« Reply #198 on: August 18, 2011, 11:07:56 PM »

Really though, I don't think that the EO-RC is ever going to happen. We can't even unite EOs with OOs, how then are you going to unite with a Church which holds a very different faith from yours?

Yeah, I know, I'm a pessimist...

If you apologize for saying any of the above, you will barred from participating in any of my future contests.

But have hope, there is often a de facto union at work already. At least in the New World where people don't keep counting bodies from the past.
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« Reply #199 on: August 18, 2011, 11:14:32 PM »

If you apologize for saying any of the above, you will barred from participating in any of my future contests.
Nope. Rest assured, no apologies this time. Grin

But have hope, there is often a de facto union at work already. At least in the New World where people don't keep counting bodies from the past.
De facto communion (I assume that's what you mean) is by no means a healthy and fruitful way to bring about reunion between the EOC and RCC. To receive a sacrament means to confirm to that faith. Orthodox and Catholics do not share the same faith so we should not be communing with each other (unless it's an absolute emergency) until we fully unite. The EO-OO intercommunion in Egypt and Syria is one thing, because I think there is ample evidence to demonstrate that we share, substantially, the same faith. The same cannot be said of RCs & EOs/OOs methinks. But, that's just my two cents.
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« Reply #200 on: August 19, 2011, 12:24:30 AM »

If you apologize for saying any of the above, you will barred from participating in any of my future contests.
Nope. Rest assured, no apologies this time. Grin

But have hope, there is often a de facto union at work already. At least in the New World where people don't keep counting bodies from the past.
De facto communion (I assume that's what you mean) is by no means a healthy and fruitful way to bring about reunion between the EOC and RCC. To receive a sacrament means to confirm to that faith. Orthodox and Catholics do not share the same faith so we should not be communing with each other (unless it's an absolute emergency) until we fully unite. The EO-OO intercommunion in Egypt and Syria is one thing, because I think there is ample evidence to demonstrate that we share, substantially, the same faith. The same cannot be said of RCs & EOs/OOs methinks. But, that's just my two cents.

I assume he was talking about de facto communion between EO and OO. No such union/communion exists between EO and RCC, even in America. (Or should I say, especially in America)

I think there may be some OO who commune in both OO and EO Churches. Though I doubt the Priests of each church know about this, though I'm not certain about this, usually its only the Indian Orthodox & Ethiopian Orthodox that I see in EO Churches communing, of course, Copts usually can manage to form their own parishes (more people and a bigger presence in the USA).
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« Reply #201 on: August 19, 2011, 12:27:28 AM »

I assume he was talking about de facto communion between EO and OO. No such union/communion exists between EO and RCC, even in America. (Or should I say, especially in America)
I know of some occasional intercommunion between the Antiochian Orthodox and the Melkites and I know of many Syriac or Malankara Orthodox who commune Catholics regularly. What can I say? It's by no means an admirable practice, but all we can do is pray...
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« Reply #202 on: August 19, 2011, 12:31:38 AM »

I assume he was talking about de facto communion between EO and OO. No such union/communion exists between EO and RCC, even in America. (Or should I say, especially in America)
I know of some occasional intercommunion between the Antiochian Orthodox and the Melkites and I know of many Syriac or Malankara Orthodox who commune Catholics regularly. What can I say? It's by no means an admirable practice, but all we can do is pray...

Not wanting to sound like a heretic here, and if I'm wrong, God forgive me and may I be chastised. But I think that union between EO and OO will be coming from the roots on up. This will probably mean "uncanonical" intercommunion between churches before we can actually muster a council. While this is definitely against the canons, I wonder if eikonomia could be allowed, if the situation is such where a council can't be called speedily.

I'm actually looking forward to the Pan-Orthodox Council coming up (whenever that'll be). Hopefully it'll bring jurisdictional unity throughout all the world, and maybe we can clean up some of our own house, which might lead to an improved situation between EO and OO. I wonder if we would actually invite OO to the council as observers.
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« Reply #203 on: August 19, 2011, 12:36:39 AM »

Not wanting to sound like a heretic here, and if I'm wrong, God forgive me and may I be chastised. But I think that union between EO and OO will be coming from the roots on up. This will probably mean "uncanonical" intercommunion between churches before we can actually muster a council. While this is definitely against the canons, I wonder if eikonomia could be allowed, if the situation is such where a council can't be called speedily.

I'm actually looking forward to the Pan-Orthodox Council coming up (whenever that'll be). Hopefully it'll bring jurisdictional unity throughout all the world, and maybe we can clean up some of our own house, which might lead to an improved situation between EO and OO. I wonder if we would actually invite OO to the council as observers.
I don't mind if some economia is practiced regarding the EO-OO situation, because as I have said, I think there is a lot of evidence that we share the same faith. The same cannot be said of RCs. So, I think I agree with you.
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« Reply #204 on: August 19, 2011, 09:20:39 AM »

I assume he was talking about de facto communion between EO and OO. No such union/communion exists between EO and RCC, even in America. (Or should I say, especially in America)
I know of some occasional intercommunion between the Antiochian Orthodox and the Melkites and I know of many Syriac or Malankara Orthodox who commune Catholics regularly. What can I say? It's by no means an admirable practice, but all we can do is pray...

Not wanting to sound like a heretic here, and if I'm wrong, God forgive me and may I be chastised. But I think that union between EO and OO will be coming from the roots on up. This will probably mean "uncanonical" intercommunion between churches before we can actually muster a council. While this is definitely against the canons, I wonder if eikonomia could be allowed, if the situation is such where a council can't be called speedily.

I'm actually looking forward to the Pan-Orthodox Council coming up (whenever that'll be). Hopefully it'll bring jurisdictional unity throughout all the world, and maybe we can clean up some of our own house, which might lead to an improved situation between EO and OO. I wonder if we would actually invite OO to the council as observers.

I too believe that this is the way it will be. When the faithful of two Churches see themselves in the other Church, to the point that the faithful believe that they are one Church, then it will be One Church.  It is reality, not canons, that set the truth.

But this is also what really keeps the Orthodox Church an the Catholic Church apart, the faithful (the communion of folks as a group) in each Church, do not see themselves in the other Church.
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« Reply #205 on: August 19, 2011, 09:27:36 AM »

I too believe that this is the way it will be. When the faithful of two Churches see themselves in the other Church, to the point that the faithful believe that they are one Church, then it will be One Church.  It is reality, not canons, that set the truth.

But this is also what really keeps the Orthodox Church an the Catholic Church apart, the faithful (the communion of folks as a group) in each Church, do not see themselves in the other Church.
I think that's a lot of the reason ROCOR and the MP reunited. The faithful of both Churches kept communing in the other Church and that's what got reunion efforts going. Of course, the EOs and OOs have been divided for over 1500 years, so it will be a bit more complicated when it comes to reunion efforts. It will take humility and prayer on both sides. If it is the will of the Holy Spirit, it shall be done. And glory be to God!
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« Reply #206 on: August 19, 2011, 10:27:36 AM »

Devin, you have roused an adversary you don't want. Some who is sincere and cares about you and knows more.

Good luck!

I'm not really sure who this is in reference to, there are many intelligent posters on here with a good spirit in how they deal with things.

I'm just an idiot with no life who likes to argue on the internet to kill time, at least when I'm not out gossiping about how I hate working with the people I work with and pointing out (what I claim to be) their faults to other people.
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« Reply #207 on: August 19, 2011, 10:35:30 AM »

Devin, you have roused an adversary you don't want. Some who is sincere and cares about you and knows more.

Good luck!

I'm not really sure who this is in reference to, there are many intelligent posters on here with a good spirit in how they deal with things.

I'm just an idiot with no life who likes to argue on the internet to kill time, at least when I'm not out gossiping about how I hate working with the people I work with and pointing out (what I claim to be) their faults to other people.

Stop your humility.
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« Reply #208 on: August 19, 2011, 11:25:28 AM »

Devin, you have roused an adversary you don't want. Some who is sincere and cares about you and knows more.

Good luck!

I'm not really sure who this is in reference to, there are many intelligent posters on here with a good spirit in how they deal with things.

I'm just an idiot with no life who likes to argue on the internet to kill time, at least when I'm not out gossiping about how I hate working with the people I work with and pointing out (what I claim to be) their faults to other people.

Stop your humility.

I was a sergeant in the Marine Corps, I have enough pride. That and the brief amount of time spent as a "rock star" in the local scene.

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« Reply #209 on: August 19, 2011, 11:30:23 AM »

I assume he was talking about de facto communion between EO and OO. No such union/communion exists between EO and RCC, even in America. (Or should I say, especially in America)
I know of some occasional intercommunion between the Antiochian Orthodox and the Melkites and I know of many Syriac or Malankara Orthodox who commune Catholics regularly. What can I say? It's by no means an admirable practice, but all we can do is pray...

Not wanting to sound like a heretic here, and if I'm wrong, God forgive me and may I be chastised. But I think that union between EO and OO will be coming from the roots on up. This will probably mean "uncanonical" intercommunion between churches before we can actually muster a council. While this is definitely against the canons, I wonder if eikonomia could be allowed, if the situation is such where a council can't be called speedily.

I'm actually looking forward to the Pan-Orthodox Council coming up (whenever that'll be). Hopefully it'll bring jurisdictional unity throughout all the world, and maybe we can clean up some of our own house, which might lead to an improved situation between EO and OO. I wonder if we would actually invite OO to the council as observers.

I too believe that this is the way it will be. When the faithful of two Churches see themselves in the other Church, to the point that the faithful believe that they are one Church, then it will be One Church.  It is reality, not canons, that set the truth.

But this is also what really keeps the Orthodox Church an the Catholic Church apart, the faithful (the communion of folks as a group) in each Church, do not see themselves in the other Church.

Ditto. The canons are made for man, not man for the canons. The Spirit, we recognize, is obviously not bound by them, as they are simply guidelines for us fallen ones. Not that we shouldn't take them very seriously, please don't misunderstand, but it's my own opinion that such "grassroots" intercommunion will end with both churches recogizing each other as fully canonical, fully Orthodox and restoring communion canonically.

I think AWR is also right about the EO/RC. We don't see ourselves in the other, because we don't really consider each other as having the same faith, like Severian said, we don't hold the same faith. Until that happens, intercommunion (on a large scale) won't either. On the other hand, the heirarchs of the EO and the OO have made joint declarations of each other's Orthodoxy. It seems that faith is not really the issue for the heirarchy of our churches anymore. Such cannot be said between the EO and the RC, who have made no such joint statement.
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« Reply #210 on: August 19, 2011, 12:13:54 PM »

Devin, you have roused an adversary you don't want. Some who is sincere and cares about you and knows more.

Good luck!

I'm not really sure who this is in reference to, there are many intelligent posters on here with a good spirit in how they deal with things.

I'm just an idiot with no life who likes to argue on the internet to kill time, at least when I'm not out gossiping about how I hate working with the people I work with and pointing out (what I claim to be) their faults to other people.

Stop your humility.

I was a sergeant in the Marine Corps, I have enough pride. That and the brief amount of time spent as a "rock star" in the local scene.



Dude. That is so }-{/-\}{}{{}|?/-\|?(!1!!!!1!1
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« Reply #211 on: August 19, 2011, 04:47:03 PM »

I knew this thread was not to be taken seriously once I read that nonsense in post #7 about Latin being a very "legalistic" language, and hence therefore at least partially responsible for Roman errors. Ridiculousness. Not only is that is that an insane idea on its face (languages don't have mindsets; people do), but Pope Victor I changed the language of the Roman liturgy during his reign, which was AD 189-199, hundreds of years before St. Augustine was even born, before the intrusion of the filioque via Toledo (or it eventual acceptance at Rome), etc.

Nothing exposes the lack of a sensible argument like suspicion and/or hatred (I don't think I've read the word "disgust" so much on a Christian message board in one thread that didn't have to do with recent examples of martyrdom in Iraq and Egypt) of everything "Western" merely for being Western. Thank God this is not the Orthodox position as explained by the majority here on oc.net, nor observed in even a cursory examination of Christian history (e.g., the presence of Romans from well after Pope Victor's time among the Desert Fathers, like St. Arsenius the Great, who are of course still commemorated because they are Orthodox).

It's strange how this anti-Roman view found among zealous new Orthodox apparently extends into Rome's Orthodox period (over silly things like language and local custom). Why is that? Because Rome is unorthodox now? This makes absolutely zero sense to me.
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« Reply #212 on: August 19, 2011, 06:36:41 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.
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« Reply #213 on: August 19, 2011, 06:38:59 PM »

It's strange how this anti-Roman view found among zealous new Orthodox apparently extends into Rome's Orthodox period (over silly things like language and local custom). Why is that? Because Rome is unorthodox now? This makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Because some things during its Orthodox period led to the circumstances during which the schism occurred. It wasn't like the Filioque, Papal Supremacy and other such issues just instantly popped out of nowhere in the 11th Century.

It isn't like I have anything against Latin, my point was that due to the language, the theologians tended to think in much more legalistic manners.

Think about it. Compare English to other languages. We are a language that is not always very specific. In fact, if one were to say shoot, they could mean shoot a gun, the expression shoot! (like darn!), chute as in a tube, chute as in a parachute, etc... However, for comparison, in Greek, if you say Alpha, with emphasis on the first A, it would mean something completely different than alphA with emphasis on the last A.
So if you were translating the Bible from Greek to English, you obviously open up many opportunities for various interpretations. Whereas if you translated it from Greek to Latin, Latin would absolutely insist on precision, which might not coincide with the Greek.

Not only that, but they also began interpreting things, and defining matters of the faith in very legalistic manners. This is especially true when it came to various issues not just related to St. Augustine. Such as their eventual interpretation of canons, which they treat as laws that cannot be broken without a consequence. Not to mention their idea of sin as being the same, laws which cannot be broken, and have a consequence and God will punish accordingly.

Obviously Latin isn't the only cause, but it is one of many causes. Again, no one is suggesting Latin is a poor language, or shouldn't have been used. But that it just contributed to the situation.
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« Reply #214 on: August 19, 2011, 06:42:08 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.

So says someone who doesn't know anything about Orthodoxy and who is completely separated from the church...
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« Reply #215 on: August 19, 2011, 06:49:59 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.
I had to warn an inquirer on this board recently to take Orthodox posts on here with a grain of salt. I guess I shouldn't be surprised when those judge Orthodoxy based on a message board.
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« Reply #216 on: August 19, 2011, 06:53:16 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.

So says someone who doesn't know anything about Orthodoxy and who is completely separated from the church...
Now Devin, do you think this in any way helps us understand each other?
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« Reply #217 on: August 19, 2011, 07:06:37 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.

So says someone who doesn't know anything about Orthodoxy and who is completely separated from the church...

And what do you know about Orthodoxy? I am most wary of those who claim to know much about Christianity but do not practice Christian Charity.
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« Reply #218 on: August 19, 2011, 07:30:00 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.

Considering most of my cousins are two-times-a-year communers who don't believe in the Real Presence, I'll throw my hat in with the netodox.
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« Reply #219 on: August 19, 2011, 07:46:41 PM »

Because some things during its Orthodox period led to the circumstances during which the schism occurred. It wasn't like the Filioque, Papal Supremacy and other such issues just instantly popped out of nowhere in the 11th Century.

I am well aware of that. My point is more that it cannot be tied to such things as a change in language, or the establishment of a local discipline that was not argued to extend beyond that locality. No matter what you feel about the concept of Original Sin, or Papal Infallibility, or any such stance, you can't blame them on things like the language being used to communicate those ideas.

Quote
It isn't like I have anything against Latin, my point was that due to the language, the theologians tended to think in much more legalistic manners.

And my point is that this is complete baloney...and, really, calling it that is a bit insulting to baloney.

Quote
Think about it. Compare English to other languages. We are a language that is not always very specific.


Speak for yourself. I am not a language.

Quote
In fact, if one were to say shoot, they could mean shoot a gun, the expression shoot! (like darn!), chute as in a tube, chute as in a parachute, etc... However, for comparison, in Greek, if you say Alpha, with emphasis on the first A, it would mean something completely different than alphA with emphasis on the last A.

What does any of this have anything to do with theology?

Quote
So if you were translating the Bible from Greek to English, you obviously open up many opportunities for various interpretations. Whereas if you translated it from Greek to Latin, Latin would absolutely insist on precision, which might not coincide with the Greek.

I don't even know if I want to get into this. I do not want to come off as prideful, but I am a linguist, and I can tell you with no sense of triumphalism at all that ideas such as this one (a sort of "hard" linguistic determinism wherein the language insists on such-and-such) have not been taken seriously for many, many years. Especially with regard to the specific context in which you have invoked this idea (Bible translation), the fact that there has been (literally since Biblical times) such a proliferation of many different translations of the scriptures into all the world's languages shows that your point cannot be sustained. If it were somehow not possible to translate faithfully a given passage due to supposed "insistence" from the language (rather than the translator, who really makes the final judgment) in this or that regard, we would not see very many successful translations (and this goes not just for the Bible, but anything that is translated from one language to another). Obviously, it was not impossible to translate from two Semitic languages to an Indo-European language (Septuagint, anyone?), and it was likewise not impossible to translate from one Indo-European language to another (Latin to Greek), just as it is possible and perfectly acceptable to provide translations in any number of languages should the circumstances insist upon it.  (Say, if someone has the temerity to not read Greek or Aramaic.)

Quote
Not only that, but they also began interpreting things, and defining matters of the faith in very legalistic manners. This is especially true when it came to various issues not just related to St. Augustine. Such as their eventual interpretation of canons, which they treat as laws that cannot be broken without a consequence. Not to mention their idea of sin as being the same, laws which cannot be broken, and have a consequence and God will punish accordingly.

Again, what does this have to do with the West being Latin-speaking? They spoke Latin when they were Orthodox; they spoke Latin when they were not Orthodox. Orthodoxy is wherever it is, and heterodoxy is where it is, too. Is this not a general principle by which most people live? (I've heard this about a million times from EO friends, and not just on the internet; other, more fanatical stances, seem to live much more comfortably on the internet.)

Quote
Obviously Latin isn't the only cause, but it is one of many causes. Again, no one is suggesting Latin is a poor language, or shouldn't have been used. But that it just contributed to the situation.

It didn't, though. If Latin is to be "blamed" in any way, then Greek can be blamed similarly, as it was a mutual estrangement wherein less translations were being made (i.e., less Latins were reading or could read Eastern writers, and less Greeks were reading or could read Western writers), less people were learning "the others'" language, etc. This is not the fault of either language, just the way that things worked out as the cultures continued to develop in more and more isolation. This arguably does go back to Pope Victor's time (since that was when the liturgy was changed from Greek to Latin, hence cutting off exposure to Greek in that context), but it could just as easily have happened under some other set of circumstances, as with some other set of languages. If the West had spoken Swahili and the East Danish, you'd still have the same problem! We still see very deep divisions in society in certain places where there is even less difference between the people. The development of artificial national standards of speech to meet new political realities is a great example. Did anyone speak Montenegrin before 2006, for instance? It depends on who you ask.

I repeat: There is nothing inherent in the Latin language or ANY language on any level that makes it either problematic or a cause of division between the Orthodox East and the heterodox/heretical/formerly Orthodox West. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing the social conditions or other aspects of cultural life with the language in which they are expressed. Every language is equally "Orthodox" or "Heterodox", in the hands of a capable speaker or writer. Let us not forget that Pope Leo III, born in Rome, forbade the filioque and went so far as to have the Creed inscribed on silver tablets without it as a testament to his defense of the faith. And in defending that faith, he wrote in Latin "HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI", or "I, Leo, put here for love and protection of orthodox faith".

Quod erat demonstrandum?  Wink
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« Reply #220 on: August 19, 2011, 08:39:36 PM »

I'm sorry but you won't convince me unless you use Orthodox sources. My statement about Latin came from an Orthodox Christian and nothing any non-orthodox says will convince me otherwise...

Heterodox writings and opinions are immediately put under suspicion unless they support the orthodox opinion, which is the truth, no other faith is true or correct.

Needless to say, in the case of EO and RCC, we ARE the ones in the right and the Roman Catholics are the ones that are in the wrong... I would argue that we had little to contribute to the schism and while we would have to make changes, the Roman Catholics are the ones that absolutely must change the most and must become Orthodox again... Any attemPt at union prior to their change is nothing but heresy.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 08:44:07 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #221 on: August 19, 2011, 08:43:27 PM »

The large disconnect between the Eastern Orthodox and the netodox becomes clearer and clearer, especially in this thread. To be fair, there is a Catholic equivalent to the netodox though. I think forums in general just breed this type of this behavior.

So says someone who doesn't know anything about Orthodoxy and who is completely separated from the church...
You don't know what I know, though you should be thankful that I do not judge Eastern Orthodoxy solely based on people like you.
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« Reply #222 on: August 19, 2011, 08:50:24 PM »

If you think I'm hyperdox, you might want to take a look at what our Saints say, especially St Mark of Ephesus...


"The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics... we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do."

"It is impossible to recall peace without dissolving the cause of the schism—the primacy of the Pope exalting himself equal to God."

"We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us."
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« Reply #223 on: August 19, 2011, 08:54:47 PM »

I'm sorry but you won't convince me unless you use Orthodox sources.
If you're in college, your professors must find you a joy.
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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« Reply #224 on: August 19, 2011, 09:02:40 PM »

I'm sorry but you won't convince me unless you use Orthodox sources.
If you're in college, your professors must find you a joy.

I grit my teeth and bear it, especially now that I have this thesis class. Theory, and this stupid "abstract thinking" is complete bull. If someone can't explain their idea literally, then they should just keep it to themselves (excluding religion). In my book, people that write abstract theories, and philosophers have pretty much no credibility. (especially when it comes to architecture)

Actually, I accept non-Orthodox scholars when it comes to things not about Orthodoxy. But if its about my faith, I accept only Orthodox sources, or sources in agreement with the Orthodox position.
(however I would include Church history in this, and I refuse to accept any non-Orthodox source when it comes to Church history)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:06:36 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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