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Author Topic: Need info on the "Zoghby Initiative" for a debate - thanks!  (Read 480 times) Average Rating: 0
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theistgal
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« on: August 16, 2011, 12:28:36 PM »

Hey everyone! I'm debating a poster over at CAF who claims to be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and says he supports the Zoghby Initiative.

To be honest, although I've Googled it and understand the basics of it, I'm not 100% sure about two things:

1) Is it still on the table? 

2) Is it something any of the Orthodox are seriously considering?

Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 12:38:14 PM »

Hey everyone! I'm debating a poster over at CAF who claims to be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and says he supports the Zoghby Initiative.

To be honest, although I've Googled it and understand the basics of it, I'm not 100% sure about two things:

1) Is it still on the table? 

2) Is it something any of the Orthodox are seriously considering?

Thanks!
I recall hearing that both Rome and the Orthodox don't subscribe to it. I personally think it's deluded relativistic wishful thinking (though I'm sure it's well-intentioned).

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 12:55:47 PM »

I can't find it now sorry.  But i think it was even on Widipedia.
Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church rejected it so I don't see how it can be used for the basis of any discussion.
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Fabio Leite
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 01:23:27 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoghby_Initiative

His two points "confession of faith" seem reasonable to me:


1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

Only that you can't be in communion with someone who doesn't want to be in communion with you. He acknowledges that what was understood as the role, fundaments and prerrogatives of the primate in 1st millenium are different from what what Rome thinks they were, but the Catapapic faith  holds the Roman see hostage today like so many heterodox faiths took hold of Eastern Patriarchates in the past. Catapapic faith was even inflated in its self-perception by the secular success and expansion of the lands under its wings. For this proposal to work, Rome would have to admit that what it believes today about the primate is not the same Rome itself believed in the 1st millenium.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 01:45:40 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 03:22:10 PM »

For this proposal to work, Rome would have to admit that what it believes today about the primate is not the same Rome itself believed in the 1st millenium.
No problem. "Development of doctrine" covers a multitude.
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 03:48:57 PM »

Only that you can't be in communion with someone who doesn't want to be in communion with you.

That's an excellent line! May I borrow it?
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 04:06:39 PM »

Theistgal,

To answer your OP ( from memory since I'm on my ipad and can't multitask so well and bring up references)

1. the "Initiative" - the confession posted by Fabio, a proposal for immediate intercommunion, and IIRC a statement that upon full reunion the Melkite hierarchy would resign in favor of the Antichian hierarchy - was officially adopted at the Synod of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church and as far as I know remains the Synod's policy.  Patriarch Gregorios and Archbishop Nicholas Samra (soon to be Archbishop of Newton in the US) are among its current vocal proponents.  I also believe Metropolitan Cyril of Beirut, formerly Archbishop of Newton, was also among its drafters.

2. Rome responded by saying intercommunion was premature.  The Antiochian Patriarchate said essentially the same thing.  Some ecumenically minded Orthodox are sympathetic but still say the same thing.  And I really can't argue against that, even if I agree with the "confession".

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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 04:54:26 PM »

Theistgal,

To answer your OP ( from memory since I'm on my ipad and can't multitask so well and bring up references)

1. the "Initiative" - the confession posted by Fabio, a proposal for immediate intercommunion, and IIRC a statement that upon full reunion the Melkite hierarchy would resign in favor of the Antichian hierarchy - was officially adopted at the Synod of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church and as far as I know remains the Synod's policy.  Patriarch Gregorios and Archbishop Nicholas Samra (soon to be Archbishop of Newton in the US) are among its current vocal proponents.  I also believe Metropolitan Cyril of Beirut, formerly Archbishop of Newton, was also among its drafters.

2. Rome responded by saying intercommunion was premature.  The Antiochian Patriarchate said essentially the same thing.  Some ecumenically minded Orthodox are sympathetic but still say the same thing.  And I really can't argue against that, even if I agree with the "confession".



I don't think it is the policy of the melkite Church.

"So far, neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox East has accepted the Zoghby initiative. Speaking for the Catholic Church, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) commented that "premature, unilateral initiatives are to be avoided, where the eventual results may not have been sufficiently considered."[13] The Antiochian Orthodox Church was circumspect toward his initiative, declaring in October 1996 that "our Synod believes that inter-communion cannot be separated from the unity of faith. Moreover, inter-communion is the last step in the quest for unity and not the first."[14]"

And the Orthodox Church HAS NEVER endorsed it.

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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 06:32:48 PM »

Here is what I just posted to the "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" poster - did I do good?  Grin

Quote
Are you suggesting that we just give up our own traditions and spirituality for Latin tradition and Spirituality? Maybe just keep the funny mass, as to have a little semblance of being Byzantine?

No, I'm suggesting that being fully Orthodox precludes being "in communion with Rome", at least at the present time. And if you spend any time on Orthodox fora, you'd learn that fairly quickly.  Wink

Call our church "orthodox lite" if you must, but I have no illusions that is Orthodox in the sense that the Orthodox themselves define it.
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