Author Topic: Are there canons against tofu dogs?  (Read 2996 times)

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2011, 11:54:29 AM »
Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2011, 11:57:52 AM »
This is why, though Orthodox11 agrees with you, his most pertinent comments are those relating to the Fathers

Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Quote
Abstaining from animal products, therefore, is the main guiding principle of fasting rules, and "fake meats" help with this - they do not, in themselves, go against the spirit of the fast. Regardless of their taste, if you eat a veggie burger you are not eating meat, and the "effects" of eating meat described by the Fathers are thus avoided.

Fasting, in the canons and the writings of Fathers, means eating nothing at all. Abstaining from animal products is merely an additional aid to this ascetic endeavor. Even though few people now keep the fasts strictly, the reduction of fasting to a list of 'allowed' and 'not-allowed' ingredients is a tragic departure from the its real purpose.

People should not be expected to keep the letter of the fast if and when that is beyond their strength, but people should certainly be expected to keep the spirit of the fast.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2011, 12:10:26 PM »
I am only a vegetarian during fasting periods and I can assure anyone, even if force of arms is necessary, that fake meat does not at all taste like meat and those who think so do not have taste buds.

Amen!
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Offline Dyhn

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2011, 02:53:44 PM »
It doesn't taste like meat at all. However, I think it is pleasant in its own right.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2011, 03:24:09 PM »
I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. ;)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2011, 03:27:06 PM »
I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. ;)

Chocolate covered coffee beans are great.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2011, 03:30:24 PM »
This is why, though Orthodox11 agrees with you, his most pertinent comments are those relating to the Fathers

Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.
Are you sure of that?
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2011, 03:36:31 PM »
I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. ;)

Even you're going too far for me.  I'd just prefer to smell it.  it smells nice so long as it's not on someone's breath.  I only use it for the caffeine, but I prefer Red Bull.  If I could get amphetamines legally, I'd probably just skip both of them.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2011, 03:44:05 PM »
I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. ;)

Even you're going too far for me.  I'd just prefer to smell it.  it smells nice so long as it's not on someone's breath.  I only use it for the caffeine, but I prefer Red Bull.  If I could get amphetamines legally, I'd probably just skip both of them.

PM me. //:=)
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Offline arnI

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2011, 04:52:31 PM »
I can't stomach fake meat tofu stuff, but I really like vegetarian ma po tofu. Delicious!
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Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2011, 06:12:06 PM »
Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.



Clearly established insofar as things like this can be trusted, and I say "clearly established" because there are proponents to these ideas from many different schools of nutrition, many of which are often otherwise at odds with one another.

I agree with you that a lot of this stuff cannot be dug up with much certainty, that culture plays a major role in all of this, and that eating real food in the right way, with the right approach is first and foremost, but I also, through various sources of influence, be they my nutritionist in NY, or Mark Sisson, or Robb Wolf, or an alternative doctor I see for spine issues who wants everyone to be a vegan, have been able to weed out and identify things that affect me in different ways, to decide which studies and which approaches hold more water with me (i.e., do they make sense, and are there ulterior motives/lobbies behind them?), and things that, when added or eliminated, enhance my life, and very possibly the lives of others.

My point, as it relates to this discussion, is that in the society that we live in, where doing anything like eating well can be very difficult (I'm spoiled, because we can afford to do certain things, but mostly because my father runs an organic vegetable farm very near to us, and we live in an area that is a major mecca for responsible farming, etc., that is also a very calm, happy place to be. This is in stark contrast to the other half of the time in StPB), eating some things that might seem somewhat indulgent for fasting is not a very big deal. Many of those who fast constantly, living in monasteries, live in very (externally) stress-free, idyllic settings, and are very accustomed to a very simple, fresh diet that they cultivate themselves. A lot of folks don;t have these luxuries, and as such, using some coconut milk, almond butter, excessive avocados, or fake meat and veggie burgers can't be called sinful, or skirting the system. It's merely obeying the fasts, which is much more than many baptized orthodox do.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2011, 07:03:47 PM »
Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.



Clearly established insofar as things like this can be trusted, and I say "clearly established" because there are proponents to these ideas from many different schools of nutrition, many of which are often otherwise at odds with one another.

I agree with you that a lot of this stuff cannot be dug up with much certainty, that culture plays a major role in all of this, and that eating real food in the right way, with the right approach is first and foremost, but I also, through various sources of influence, be they my nutritionist in NY, or Mark Sisson, or Robb Wolf, or an alternative doctor I see for spine issues who wants everyone to be a vegan, have been able to weed out and identify things that affect me in different ways, to decide which studies and which approaches hold more water with me (i.e., do they make sense, and are there ulterior motives/lobbies behind them?), and things that, when added or eliminated, enhance my life, and very possibly the lives of others.

My point, as it relates to this discussion, is that in the society that we live in, where doing anything like eating well can be very difficult (I'm spoiled, because we can afford to do certain things, but mostly because my father runs an organic vegetable farm very near to us, and we live in an area that is a major mecca for responsible farming, etc., that is also a very calm, happy place to be. This is in stark contrast to the other half of the time in StPB), eating some things that might seem somewhat indulgent for fasting is not a very big deal. Many of those who fast constantly, living in monasteries, live in very (externally) stress-free, idyllic settings, and are very accustomed to a very simple, fresh diet that they cultivate themselves. A lot of folks don;t have these luxuries, and as such, using some coconut milk, almond butter, excessive avocados, or fake meat and veggie burgers can't be called sinful, or skirting the system. It's merely obeying the fasts, which is much more than many baptized orthodox do.

Again in a more complex and minimalist manner, we are in agreement, I don't see how anyone could disagree, frankly.

Just ain't into "good foods" and "bad foods", unless some will kill ya. Darn shellfish allergy! Used to eat crawdads right out of the crick.

Now I can't even look at one without difficulty breathing. Darn puberty!

If I could only get pregnant, I might have chance of losing it.

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2011, 07:10:02 PM »
Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.



Clearly established insofar as things like this can be trusted, and I say "clearly established" because there are proponents to these ideas from many different schools of nutrition, many of which are often otherwise at odds with one another.

I agree with you that a lot of this stuff cannot be dug up with much certainty, that culture plays a major role in all of this, and that eating real food in the right way, with the right approach is first and foremost, but I also, through various sources of influence, be they my nutritionist in NY, or Mark Sisson, or Robb Wolf, or an alternative doctor I see for spine issues who wants everyone to be a vegan, have been able to weed out and identify things that affect me in different ways, to decide which studies and which approaches hold more water with me (i.e., do they make sense, and are there ulterior motives/lobbies behind them?), and things that, when added or eliminated, enhance my life, and very possibly the lives of others.

My point, as it relates to this discussion, is that in the society that we live in, where doing anything like eating well can be very difficult (I'm spoiled, because we can afford to do certain things, but mostly because my father runs an organic vegetable farm very near to us, and we live in an area that is a major mecca for responsible farming, etc., that is also a very calm, happy place to be. This is in stark contrast to the other half of the time in StPB), eating some things that might seem somewhat indulgent for fasting is not a very big deal. Many of those who fast constantly, living in monasteries, live in very (externally) stress-free, idyllic settings, and are very accustomed to a very simple, fresh diet that they cultivate themselves. A lot of folks don;t have these luxuries, and as such, using some coconut milk, almond butter, excessive avocados, or fake meat and veggie burgers can't be called sinful, or skirting the system. It's merely obeying the fasts, which is much more than many baptized orthodox do.

Again in a more complex and minimalist manner, we are in agreement, I don't see how anyone could disagree, frankly.

Just ain't into "good foods" and "bad foods", unless some will kill ya. Darn shellfish allergy! Used to eat crawdads right out of the crick.

Now I can't even look at one without difficulty breathing. Darn puberty!

If I could only get pregnant, I might have chance of losing it.



Give it twenty years, and I'm sure that science will make that possible. If you make sure to do within the 100 years it takes the Orthodox Church to react to and anathematize those who use such an abominable technology, I'm sure that you could get away with only having to do minimal penance.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline mark thomas

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2011, 03:41:28 AM »
Quote
Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Fasting is not an ascetic exercise.

It is a cooking challenge. :D
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2011, 08:44:21 AM »
Quote
Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Fasting is not an ascetic exercise.

It is a cooking challenge. :D

I just discovered this awesome Youtube channel: Vegan Black Metal Chef http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg

Offline Schultz

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2011, 09:27:01 AM »
About to make some blackened tofu with jerk asparagus and rice tonight.  YUM!

I don't eat tofu that much because I generally don't like it, although I do enjoy properly prepared tempeh.  This will be the first time I try the above  and I have high hopes for it.
The trick to blackened tofu, I've heard, is to press out the extra moisture.

Thanks for the tip!

AFter pressing the heck out of it, the blackened tofu was an unmitigated success.  I very much look forward to eating it again.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2011, 09:46:28 AM »
I'm still flabbergasted that anyone could use the words "tofu" and "delicious" in the same sentence. ???
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2011, 10:18:40 AM »
I'm still flabbergasted that anyone could use the words "tofu" and "delicious" in the same sentence. ???

It's an acquired taste. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2011, 10:21:28 AM »
I grew up eating tofu with almost every meal. But the thing is, my mom knew what she was doing. It was some of the best stuff ever.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2011, 10:22:11 AM »
I grew up eating tofu with almost every meal. But the thing is, 0my mom knew what she was doing. It was some of the best stuff ever.

This is key.  Tofu is either really good or really bad.  There is no in between.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2011, 10:22:36 AM »
I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. ;)
Well, apparently I needed to EAT coffee that morning.  :D
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Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2011, 10:40:44 AM »
I grew up eating tofu with almost every meal. But the thing is, 0my mom knew what she was doing. It was some of the best stuff ever.

This is key.  Tofu is either really good or really bad.  There is no in between.
Quite.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2011, 10:42:07 AM »
I'm still flabbergasted that anyone could use the words "tofu" and "delicious" in the same sentence. ???

It's an acquired taste. 

That's what my mom said about turnip greens, too. Fortunately I have never acquired that either. ;D
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Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2011, 10:43:38 AM »
Just think how hard it is for our poor brethren in Russia. There are no tofu dogs!

The national diet, in fact, consists of hot dogs, ice cream, cognac, smoked fish and beef in gelatin. It must be so hard for them.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
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Offline mark thomas

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2011, 10:08:05 PM »
Quote

Quote

Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Fasting is not an ascetic exercise.

It is a cooking challenge.

I just discovered this awesome Youtube channel: Vegan Black Metal Chef http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg



Love that guy! He cracks me up! For myself, I'll be sticking with my professional cutlery and leaving the Gil Hibbens knives out of the kitchen. But his pad thai recipe is really good! There's also this guy (good for a few evil laughs and some decent Lenten recipes):
http://www.youtube.com/user/HeavyMetalKitchen
"Who touches, is also touched"

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2011, 10:28:55 PM »
Having been to a country where the average family would eat Fido for lunch just as readily as pet him, the question in the OP has me wondering: Why in the world would anyone make a dog out of tofu? ???
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Offline LBK

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Re: Are there canons against tofu dogs?
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2011, 10:43:36 PM »
Having been to a country where the average family would eat Fido for lunch just as readily as pet him, the question in the OP has me wondering: Why in the world would anyone make a dog out of tofu? ???

For probably the same reason tofu turkey exists.  :laugh: :laugh:
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 10:43:56 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?