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Author Topic: Are there canons against tofu dogs?  (Read 2372 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: August 16, 2011, 08:08:57 PM »

If not, then there need to be some. This garbage is Satanic.
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 08:12:35 PM »

I would add "chocolate" made from carob to the "uncanonical" list. Blech. Tongue Tongue laugh
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 08:59:42 PM »

Add soy milk to that list. Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 09:05:52 PM »

Add soy milk to that list. Tongue

Soy milk is great, especially with loads of sugar.

Tofu dogs are awful but tofu bacon ain't bad at all.
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 09:09:26 PM »

Add soy milk to that list. Tongue

YES!! Coffee with soy milk is vile.  Tongue Tongue Tongue I'd rather go black if milk is off the menu.
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 09:10:10 PM »

Guys, soy milk is not meant to be put in coffee. Come on.
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 09:11:47 PM »

Guys, soy milk is not meant to be put in coffee. Come on.

Almond milk. That's where it's at.
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 09:15:31 PM »

Guys, soy milk is not meant to be put in coffee. Come on.

Almond milk. That's where it's at.

Coconut cream is even better.
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 09:24:04 PM »

Reminds me of vegetarian rabbit from 12 Chairs by Ilf&Petrov.
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 09:59:25 PM »

Add soy milk to that list. Tongue

YES!! Coffee with soy milk is vile.  Tongue Tongue Tongue I'd rather go black if milk is off the menu.

I think milk in coffee is the sin. Soy is the penance.
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 10:55:26 PM »

If not, then there need to be some. This garbage is Satanic.

For me, eating anything made of soy is deadly. Yuk.
And they feed the poor cattle soy, so I cannot eat that either.
I have serious allergies to the legume family: peanuts, beans, and peas.
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 10:57:23 PM »

Anyone here try Tofu turkey during the Thanksgiving season (last week in November)?
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 11:02:42 PM »

Anyone here try Tofu turkey during the Thanksgiving season (last week in November)?

That. Sounds. Utterly. Abominably. Disgusting.  Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 11:03:15 PM »

Add soy milk to that list. Tongue

You can't milk a bean.
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 01:43:14 AM »

Having been a vegetarian for 2 years, I love meat substitutes and ate them regularly while I was a vegetarian. After the first time I encountered such a thing (which was on holiday in Malaysia), I asked the local Orthodox priest if it would be a sin to eat fake meat on fast days, and he said no.

Do you think a person is following the spirit of the fast if they are eating Morningstar burgers and other products which (to them) taste almost exactly like meat? If you are eating something which is 100% vegetarian and in line with Orthodox fasting laws but tastes exactly like meat, which you are supposed to be giving up as a penance, isn't that defeating the purpose of fasting?
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 01:51:09 AM »

I think soy can be tasty in some forms, but I won't touch it. Stuff is awful for you.
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 04:20:06 AM »

A chai teabag and a cinnamon stick steeped for a while in warm almond milk is just gorgeous. Almond milk has been one of my best discoveries since I had breast cancer and was told that soy contains oestrogen  Huh  I read recently about a very slender vegan actress who had to become a Marilyn Monroe lookalike for a role did it by eating lots of soy ice-cream, she thought it would put on weight where needed most and it apparently did!

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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 04:56:52 AM »

I'm not a vege, i love getting my chops round a huge sausage now an then haha.... but i love soy as well.

Costa do a soya capuccino that is sooo yummy (but other than this, soy in coffee is rank i agree) and also the chocolate milk that you can buy in the store made with soya is nice too!!!

I love quorn as well they make them as sausages which are yummers.

Not almond milk but cinnamon milk is ......O.....M........DAYS....to die for!!!! Dyhn makes amazing cinnamon milk that sends me right off to sleep in a minute!!! WW£ could be going on outside and i wouldnt wake up after that.
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 05:08:19 AM »

Do you think a person is following the spirit of the fast if they are eating Morningstar burgers and other products which (to them) taste almost exactly like meat? If you are eating something which is 100% vegetarian and in line with Orthodox fasting laws but tastes exactly like meat, which you are supposed to be giving up as a penance, isn't that defeating the purpose of fasting?

In short, yes. It's pharisaism. Not to mention the fact that these vegetarian meat substitutes are often much more expensive, leaving you with less money for charity, making that important element of fasting redundant too.

The only thing that is upheld is perhaps the avoidance of the physical effects of meat and other animal products. The Fathers write quite extensively about the connection between eating too much meat and an increase in sexual desire, for example.
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 05:32:41 AM »

Having been a vegetarian for 2 years, I love meat substitutes and ate them regularly while I was a vegetarian. After the first time I encountered such a thing (which was on holiday in Malaysia), I asked the local Orthodox priest if it would be a sin to eat fake meat on fast days, and he said no.

Do you think a person is following the spirit of the fast if they are eating Morningstar burgers and other products which (to them) taste almost exactly like meat? If you are eating something which is 100% vegetarian and in line with Orthodox fasting laws but tastes exactly like meat, which you are supposed to be giving up as a penance, isn't that defeating the purpose of fasting?

Penance is not the purpose of fasting in Orthodoxy - or at least not the main purpose. The main purpose is asceticism. This is why, though Orthodox11 agrees with you, his most pertinent comments are those relating to the Fathers:

Quote
The only thing that is upheld is perhaps the avoidance of the physical effects of meat and other animal products. The Fathers write quite extensively about the connection between eating too much meat and an increase in sexual desire, for example.

Abstaining from animal products, therefore, is the main guiding principle of fasting rules, and "fake meats" help with this - they do not, in themselves, go against the spirit of the fast. Regardless of their taste, if you eat a veggie burger you are not eating meat, and the "effects" of eating meat described by the Fathers are thus avoided.

What eating a lot of this processed fake-meats does do is free up time, as they take less preparation then preparing and cooking vegetables. This is a neutral thing, but quite obviously can be put to good effect if we spend this extra time wisely.

Here is an article which talks about the role of fake-meat in fasting:

http://www.pravmir.com/what-about-meat-and-dairy-substitutes-during-great-lent/

You don't have to listen to me, but equally I would advise you to listen to a priest over any anonymous bod on the Internet. With the Malaysian priest, and now Fr David who wrote the article above, you have two priests' opinion on the matter.
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2011, 05:40:42 AM »

I once tasted a piece of tofu sushi. It was disgusting. I don't know if this counts for all kinds of tofu but it tasted like someone had covered it with suckar. Yuk
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2011, 06:28:43 AM »

Tofu is a crime against humanity. Too bad that my girlfriend is a vegetarian and seem to like it. That means that I have to eat it from time to time. Lips Sealed On the other hand it's perfect lenten food since is so bad that nobody wants to eat it excessively.

Soy milk on the other hand is not that bad.
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 08:04:05 AM »

You guys don't understand tofu, and that's because white people keep trying to do dumb stuff with it like make it into turkeys and sushi. When it's properly cooked (and there are many varieties, so it depends) it's absolutely delicious. And no, I'm not a vegetarian.
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2011, 08:15:08 AM »

There are so many different ways of making and cooking tofu, it's hard to believe it's all bad to you dudes.
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2011, 08:30:05 AM »

I've eaten tofu so many ways that it's hard to believe why people LIKE it Wink Even fried.

Although I can tolerate the small blocks of it in miso soup. Mmm, miso soup.

I do like: Boca chicken nuggets and patties, Morningstar breakfast patties (actually, almost everything Morningstar, with the exception of their chicken nuggets, blagh), so I guess I am a soy, fake protein monster. I even eat it when it's not a fasting period. The stuff is expensive, though, so I can't exactly finish off a bag of chicken nuggets in one (or even two) sitting. $3.99 down the drain in one shot! No thank you.

During Lent we try to minimize our consumption of the fake meat products. There, I said it. Yes, we still eat it.

I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2011, 08:56:52 AM »

Mrs. Ismi, so those Boca chicken nuggets are pretty good?  How close do they taste to the real thing?  I have had a hankering for chicken nuggets for a long time but generally don't eat processed chicken anymore.  I sell industrial products and I was working on a job that had an exhaust fan at a packing plant on one of the ammonia washes.  This thing had to have special construction with special coatings so the STEEL wouldn't corrode.  At first I didn't think about it, then I found out that the ammonia wash is not for the tools but for the chicken, to sterilize it.  Then flavor is added to mask the ammonia. 

I have an incredible stomach and can generally eat store bought meats and just get over the fact that I know a bit more about the process than most people do.  But soy meat has been a good thing and I have been trying to eat more and more of it.
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2011, 09:20:37 AM »

About to make some blackened tofu with jerk asparagus and rice tonight.  YUM!

I don't eat tofu that much because I generally don't like it, although I do enjoy properly prepared tempeh.  This will be the first time I try the above  and I have high hopes for it.
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2011, 09:42:16 AM »

About to make some blackened tofu with jerk asparagus and rice tonight.  YUM!

I don't eat tofu that much because I generally don't like it, although I do enjoy properly prepared tempeh.  This will be the first time I try the above  and I have high hopes for it.
The trick to blackened tofu, I've heard, is to press out the extra moisture.
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 09:45:34 AM »

About to make some blackened tofu with jerk asparagus and rice tonight.  YUM!

I don't eat tofu that much because I generally don't like it, although I do enjoy properly prepared tempeh.  This will be the first time I try the above  and I have high hopes for it.
The trick to blackened tofu, I've heard, is to press out the extra moisture.

Thanks for the tip!
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 09:54:35 AM »

Do you think a person is following the spirit of the fast if they are eating Morningstar burgers and other products which (to them) taste almost exactly like meat? If you are eating something which is 100% vegetarian and in line with Orthodox fasting laws but tastes exactly like meat, which you are supposed to be giving up as a penance, isn't that defeating the purpose of fasting?

None of the burgers and other soy products taste even remotely like meat - or dairy, for that matter. The only difference between them is whether one tastes slightly less disgusting than another.
Eating anything made of soy is most certainly a penitential act.
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 10:45:36 AM »

You guys don't understand tofu, and that's because white people keep trying to do dumb stuff with it like make it into turkeys and sushi. When it's properly cooked (and there are many varieties, so it depends) it's absolutely delicious. And no, I'm not a vegetarian.

Crispy twice fried tofu with peanut sauce is really yummy.
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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 10:49:02 AM »

Add soy milk to that list. Tongue

YES!! Coffee with soy milk is vile.  Tongue Tongue Tongue I'd rather go black if milk is off the menu.

I think milk in coffee is the sin. Soy is the penance.

The pure in coffee drink it black.
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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2011, 10:51:16 AM »

Tofu in Meso Soup is fantastic....but thats it. Tofu meat you can keep.

If you're lactose intolerant, I can understand Soy Milk (Almond milk, etc) however if you're not just use milk. If you NEED soy milk to be healthy you have alot worse problems than milk....

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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2011, 10:55:06 AM »


I absolutely LOVE Szechwan Veggies with Tofu at my local Chinese Restaurant!  I would eat even on non-fasting days!  It's the best.

I personally love tofu, just not all the fake meats made of tofu.

MorningStar makes a good "burger", but, I can't eat any of the hot dogs, bacon, chicken immitations.  They taste terrible.
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 11:01:20 AM »

Do you think a person is following the spirit of the fast if they are eating Morningstar burgers and other products which (to them) taste almost exactly like meat? If you are eating something which is 100% vegetarian and in line with Orthodox fasting laws but tastes exactly like meat, which you are supposed to be giving up as a penance, isn't that defeating the purpose of fasting?

I am only a vegetarian during fasting periods and I can assure anyone, even if force of arms is necessary, that fake meat does not at all taste like meat and those who think so do not have taste buds.

Fasting is not about taste of foods or about saving money or about losing weight. It is a tool for spiritual growth.
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 11:06:26 AM »

With all of the demands in our lives, I really don't think it's pharasaism to eat things that taste kinda like meat. Like I said, I barely eat tofu, even though I think it's good,  because it's like injecting estrogen into your veins, which has a lot of negative consequences for a man or woman, and I never eat Seitan (also called "wheat gluten", the stuff that tastes the most like meat), because I don't eat gluten, or many grains, period, but I definitely indulge in other things that are very tasty but fasting foods.

Coconut milk, avocados and nuts dominate my fast, and I'm totally comfortable with that. As I've said before, I have 2+ kids and a wife, business/house to attend to, school work (still, ugh), 2 sports I play and coach, and I'm a workout nut. I try to tone it all down to the extent that is possible during the fast, but based on what my priest tells me, I'll eat whatever feels and tastes good, as long as I'm not breaking guidelines. It reminds me of what/why I'm doing it, and I'm such a carnivore that it's already a big deal for me, and definitely beats down those carnal desires Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 11:07:02 AM »

There are so many different ways of making and cooking tofu, it's hard to believe it's all bad to you dudes.

I can eat it "raw".

I never saw the big deal about tofu.

I will not eat a tofu dog and other such garbage if I can avoid it.
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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 11:10:24 AM »

Zarked quotes. No time to fix. I'll lulz at the dietary statements made later.


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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 11:16:42 AM »

Zarked quotes. No time to fix. I'll lulz at the dietary statements made later.




I know you hate my dietary approach. I'm cool with that, we've had that discussion. I'm just sharing how I fast, and how I feel about what one can or can't eat during the fast.
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2011, 11:22:44 AM »

Hate's a strong word. I meant, scoff at, and think is ridiculous. I doubt you mind enough to hate it.
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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2011, 11:26:07 AM »

I've never had seitan that "tastes" like meat.  It might have a similar "bite" but once it hits the tongue, no matter how it was marinated or slathered in bbq sauce or whatever, it's definitely not meat.

I really have to wonder at the quality of meat people who think soy/seitan/tempeh tastes like meat.
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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2011, 11:27:47 AM »

I've never had seitan that "tastes" like meat.  It might have a similar "bite" but once it hits the tongue, no matter how it was marinated or slathered in bbq sauce or whatever, it's definitely not meat.

I really have to wonder at the quality of meat people who think soy/seitan/tempeh tastes like meat.
I mean, I've had seitan that was so processed and jumbled up with other crap, that once soaked in sauce, tasted vaguely like some kind of very cheap meat, but I agree with you. Tempeh's the only yummy one of the bunch, to me, but it tastes nothing like meat.
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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2011, 11:31:45 AM »

Zarked quotes. No time to fix. I'll lulz at the dietary statements made later.




I know you hate my dietary approach. I'm cool with that, we've had that discussion. I'm just sharing how I fast, and how I feel about what one can or can't eat during the fast.

Its not your approach (as I've said multiple time, I've eaten how you try to do for practical reasons) it is your willingness you spout off absolutely unsubstantiated claims which fly in the face of reality. Banging estrogen is hardly eating tofu.

Eating tofu is just fine.

If I thought you were being hyperbolic for humor sake, I wouldn't care.

Soy is OK.

Food is OK.

Tofu hot dogs are garbage.

And seitan should never be eaten by a Christian. //:=)
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2011, 11:36:07 AM »

Zarked quotes. No time to fix. I'll lulz at the dietary statements made later.




I know you hate my dietary approach. I'm cool with that, we've had that discussion. I'm just sharing how I fast, and how I feel about what one can or can't eat during the fast.

Its not your approach (as I've said multiple time, I've eaten how you try to do for practical reasons) it is your willingness you spout off absolutely unsubstantiated claims which fly in the face of reality. Banging estrogen is hardly eating tofu.

Eating tofu is just fine.

If I thought you were being hyperbolic for humor sake, I wouldn't care.

Soy is OK.

Food is OK.

Tofu hot dogs are garbage.

And seitan should never be eaten by a Christian. //:=)
Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Not to mention a lot of studies that have suggested other nasty things about soy, i.e., hindering mineral absorption due to phytic acid, thyroid issues, etc. I'm not saying any of these theories are slam dunks, but there's enough out there to support avoiding soy, especially that which is in any way processed. Whole soy? Maybe.
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »

Mrs. Ismi, so those Boca chicken nuggets are pretty good?  How close do they taste to the real thing?  I have had a hankering for chicken nuggets for a long time but generally don't eat processed chicken anymore.  I sell industrial products and I was working on a job that had an exhaust fan at a packing plant on one of the ammonia washes.  This thing had to have special construction with special coatings so the STEEL wouldn't corrode.  At first I didn't think about it, then I found out that the ammonia wash is not for the tools but for the chicken, to sterilize it.  Then flavor is added to mask the ammonia. 

I have an incredible stomach and can generally eat store bought meats and just get over the fact that I know a bit more about the process than most people do.  But soy meat has been a good thing and I have been trying to eat more and more of it.
Ugh, that makes my stomach turn (probably not enough to stop eating chicken, sadly Sad ).

The Boca chicken nuggets are the closest to chicken that I've tried. The MorningStar nuggets have a very strange texture, but I got used to them. Boca honestly doesn't taste like fasting to me. Of course regular chicken is much more satisfying, but I recommend you try the chicken patties or something and make your determination. Of course these foods are very processed, but YMMV.
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2011, 11:54:29 AM »

Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.

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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2011, 11:57:52 AM »

This is why, though Orthodox11 agrees with you, his most pertinent comments are those relating to the Fathers

Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Quote
Abstaining from animal products, therefore, is the main guiding principle of fasting rules, and "fake meats" help with this - they do not, in themselves, go against the spirit of the fast. Regardless of their taste, if you eat a veggie burger you are not eating meat, and the "effects" of eating meat described by the Fathers are thus avoided.

Fasting, in the canons and the writings of Fathers, means eating nothing at all. Abstaining from animal products is merely an additional aid to this ascetic endeavor. Even though few people now keep the fasts strictly, the reduction of fasting to a list of 'allowed' and 'not-allowed' ingredients is a tragic departure from the its real purpose.

People should not be expected to keep the letter of the fast if and when that is beyond their strength, but people should certainly be expected to keep the spirit of the fast.
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2011, 12:10:26 PM »

I am only a vegetarian during fasting periods and I can assure anyone, even if force of arms is necessary, that fake meat does not at all taste like meat and those who think so do not have taste buds.

Amen!
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2011, 02:53:44 PM »

It doesn't taste like meat at all. However, I think it is pleasant in its own right.
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2011, 03:24:09 PM »

I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. Wink
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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2011, 03:27:06 PM »

I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. Wink

Chocolate covered coffee beans are great.
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2011, 03:30:24 PM »

This is why, though Orthodox11 agrees with you, his most pertinent comments are those relating to the Fathers

Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.
Are you sure of that?
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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2011, 03:36:31 PM »

I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. Wink

Even you're going too far for me.  I'd just prefer to smell it.  it smells nice so long as it's not on someone's breath.  I only use it for the caffeine, but I prefer Red Bull.  If I could get amphetamines legally, I'd probably just skip both of them.
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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2011, 03:44:05 PM »

I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. Wink

Even you're going too far for me.  I'd just prefer to smell it.  it smells nice so long as it's not on someone's breath.  I only use it for the caffeine, but I prefer Red Bull.  If I could get amphetamines legally, I'd probably just skip both of them.

PM me. //:=)
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« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2011, 04:52:31 PM »

I can't stomach fake meat tofu stuff, but I really like vegetarian ma po tofu. Delicious!
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« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2011, 06:12:06 PM »

Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.



Clearly established insofar as things like this can be trusted, and I say "clearly established" because there are proponents to these ideas from many different schools of nutrition, many of which are often otherwise at odds with one another.

I agree with you that a lot of this stuff cannot be dug up with much certainty, that culture plays a major role in all of this, and that eating real food in the right way, with the right approach is first and foremost, but I also, through various sources of influence, be they my nutritionist in NY, or Mark Sisson, or Robb Wolf, or an alternative doctor I see for spine issues who wants everyone to be a vegan, have been able to weed out and identify things that affect me in different ways, to decide which studies and which approaches hold more water with me (i.e., do they make sense, and are there ulterior motives/lobbies behind them?), and things that, when added or eliminated, enhance my life, and very possibly the lives of others.

My point, as it relates to this discussion, is that in the society that we live in, where doing anything like eating well can be very difficult (I'm spoiled, because we can afford to do certain things, but mostly because my father runs an organic vegetable farm very near to us, and we live in an area that is a major mecca for responsible farming, etc., that is also a very calm, happy place to be. This is in stark contrast to the other half of the time in StPB), eating some things that might seem somewhat indulgent for fasting is not a very big deal. Many of those who fast constantly, living in monasteries, live in very (externally) stress-free, idyllic settings, and are very accustomed to a very simple, fresh diet that they cultivate themselves. A lot of folks don;t have these luxuries, and as such, using some coconut milk, almond butter, excessive avocados, or fake meat and veggie burgers can't be called sinful, or skirting the system. It's merely obeying the fasts, which is much more than many baptized orthodox do.
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« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2011, 07:03:47 PM »

Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.



Clearly established insofar as things like this can be trusted, and I say "clearly established" because there are proponents to these ideas from many different schools of nutrition, many of which are often otherwise at odds with one another.

I agree with you that a lot of this stuff cannot be dug up with much certainty, that culture plays a major role in all of this, and that eating real food in the right way, with the right approach is first and foremost, but I also, through various sources of influence, be they my nutritionist in NY, or Mark Sisson, or Robb Wolf, or an alternative doctor I see for spine issues who wants everyone to be a vegan, have been able to weed out and identify things that affect me in different ways, to decide which studies and which approaches hold more water with me (i.e., do they make sense, and are there ulterior motives/lobbies behind them?), and things that, when added or eliminated, enhance my life, and very possibly the lives of others.

My point, as it relates to this discussion, is that in the society that we live in, where doing anything like eating well can be very difficult (I'm spoiled, because we can afford to do certain things, but mostly because my father runs an organic vegetable farm very near to us, and we live in an area that is a major mecca for responsible farming, etc., that is also a very calm, happy place to be. This is in stark contrast to the other half of the time in StPB), eating some things that might seem somewhat indulgent for fasting is not a very big deal. Many of those who fast constantly, living in monasteries, live in very (externally) stress-free, idyllic settings, and are very accustomed to a very simple, fresh diet that they cultivate themselves. A lot of folks don;t have these luxuries, and as such, using some coconut milk, almond butter, excessive avocados, or fake meat and veggie burgers can't be called sinful, or skirting the system. It's merely obeying the fasts, which is much more than many baptized orthodox do.

Again in a more complex and minimalist manner, we are in agreement, I don't see how anyone could disagree, frankly.

Just ain't into "good foods" and "bad foods", unless some will kill ya. Darn shellfish allergy! Used to eat crawdads right out of the crick.

Now I can't even look at one without difficulty breathing. Darn puberty!

If I could only get pregnant, I might have chance of losing it.

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« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2011, 07:10:02 PM »

Do I think that eating tofu occasionally=banging estrogen? No, so to some extent, yes I'm being hyperbolic. But There's a very clearly established connection between eating a lot of soy and estrogen levels, especially as often as many Americans eat soy, whether for "health" reasons, or because it's added to everything processed.

Now, I don't think there is any "clearly established connection". In fact, I know there is not. And no way to find out. There really isn't. It is just guessing: meta-analysis and correlation, the same arguments the people you support use to tear down the "studies" on the dangers of meat.

But I wouldn't disagree with the likelihood once you frame the topic within the diet of someone stuffing themselves with soy, corn, sugar, etc. all the time.

I believe (it is a belief) that is not a good diet. But one which will still allow you to procreate and probably live a relatively long life.

So as I say, culture trumps science and dietary anthropology.

In a minimalist sense, we agree, but I wouldn't say we are certainly correct.

The typical American diet "lifestyle" sucks chronic healthwise. But it ain't because of gluten nor soy or at least they are the smallest of our problems.

Stress. That is the beginning and end of it all. Your style of eating can be helpful in mitigating or arresting certain chronic hormonal issues and some folks deal with stress better eating high fat diets. But that is still a band-aid.

But the solution the American health problem lies much deeper. And neither you nor I are going even be able to change it in own lives. Unless you are independently wealthy, a Saint, or can leave this place.

IOW, go back to Russia with love, seriously. I might split in a while as well.

Even Western Europe has a lot more things right than we do, much less EE. After getting adjusted somewhat to not being here, coming back felt like a smack in the face in terms of chronic low level stress.

That is what is problem in the end.

Oh well, this has gone on too long.



Clearly established insofar as things like this can be trusted, and I say "clearly established" because there are proponents to these ideas from many different schools of nutrition, many of which are often otherwise at odds with one another.

I agree with you that a lot of this stuff cannot be dug up with much certainty, that culture plays a major role in all of this, and that eating real food in the right way, with the right approach is first and foremost, but I also, through various sources of influence, be they my nutritionist in NY, or Mark Sisson, or Robb Wolf, or an alternative doctor I see for spine issues who wants everyone to be a vegan, have been able to weed out and identify things that affect me in different ways, to decide which studies and which approaches hold more water with me (i.e., do they make sense, and are there ulterior motives/lobbies behind them?), and things that, when added or eliminated, enhance my life, and very possibly the lives of others.

My point, as it relates to this discussion, is that in the society that we live in, where doing anything like eating well can be very difficult (I'm spoiled, because we can afford to do certain things, but mostly because my father runs an organic vegetable farm very near to us, and we live in an area that is a major mecca for responsible farming, etc., that is also a very calm, happy place to be. This is in stark contrast to the other half of the time in StPB), eating some things that might seem somewhat indulgent for fasting is not a very big deal. Many of those who fast constantly, living in monasteries, live in very (externally) stress-free, idyllic settings, and are very accustomed to a very simple, fresh diet that they cultivate themselves. A lot of folks don;t have these luxuries, and as such, using some coconut milk, almond butter, excessive avocados, or fake meat and veggie burgers can't be called sinful, or skirting the system. It's merely obeying the fasts, which is much more than many baptized orthodox do.

Again in a more complex and minimalist manner, we are in agreement, I don't see how anyone could disagree, frankly.

Just ain't into "good foods" and "bad foods", unless some will kill ya. Darn shellfish allergy! Used to eat crawdads right out of the crick.

Now I can't even look at one without difficulty breathing. Darn puberty!

If I could only get pregnant, I might have chance of losing it.



Give it twenty years, and I'm sure that science will make that possible. If you make sure to do within the 100 years it takes the Orthodox Church to react to and anathematize those who use such an abominable technology, I'm sure that you could get away with only having to do minimal penance.
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« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2011, 03:41:28 AM »

Quote
Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Fasting is not an ascetic exercise.

It is a cooking challenge. Cheesy
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« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2011, 08:44:21 AM »

Quote
Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Fasting is not an ascetic exercise.

It is a cooking challenge. Cheesy

I just discovered this awesome Youtube channel: Vegan Black Metal Chef http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg
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« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2011, 09:27:01 AM »

About to make some blackened tofu with jerk asparagus and rice tonight.  YUM!

I don't eat tofu that much because I generally don't like it, although I do enjoy properly prepared tempeh.  This will be the first time I try the above  and I have high hopes for it.
The trick to blackened tofu, I've heard, is to press out the extra moisture.

Thanks for the tip!

AFter pressing the heck out of it, the blackened tofu was an unmitigated success.  I very much look forward to eating it again.
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« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2011, 09:46:28 AM »

I'm still flabbergasted that anyone could use the words "tofu" and "delicious" in the same sentence. Huh
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« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2011, 10:18:40 AM »

I'm still flabbergasted that anyone could use the words "tofu" and "delicious" in the same sentence. Huh

It's an acquired taste. 
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« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2011, 10:21:28 AM »

I grew up eating tofu with almost every meal. But the thing is, my mom knew what she was doing. It was some of the best stuff ever.
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« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2011, 10:22:11 AM »

I grew up eating tofu with almost every meal. But the thing is, 0my mom knew what she was doing. It was some of the best stuff ever.

This is key.  Tofu is either really good or really bad.  There is no in between.
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« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2011, 10:22:36 AM »

I don't really like soy milk. It's okay, but I never drink milk -- don't eat coffee and don't really eat cereal anymore, so i don't have a reason to keep it around. Mr. Ismi doesn't drink it during Lent either, but then again, he likes his coffee black so it isn't too much of a sacrifice.
I rarely eat coffee myself. I prefer to grind up the beans and have hot water filter through the grounds into a coffee pot. Wink
Well, apparently I needed to EAT coffee that morning.  Cheesy
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« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2011, 10:40:44 AM »

I grew up eating tofu with almost every meal. But the thing is, 0my mom knew what she was doing. It was some of the best stuff ever.

This is key.  Tofu is either really good or really bad.  There is no in between.
Quite.
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« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2011, 10:42:07 AM »

I'm still flabbergasted that anyone could use the words "tofu" and "delicious" in the same sentence. Huh

It's an acquired taste. 

That's what my mom said about turnip greens, too. Fortunately I have never acquired that either. Grin
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« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2011, 10:43:38 AM »

Just think how hard it is for our poor brethren in Russia. There are no tofu dogs!

The national diet, in fact, consists of hot dogs, ice cream, cognac, smoked fish and beef in gelatin. It must be so hard for them.
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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2011, 10:08:05 PM »

Quote

Quote

Fasting is above all an ascetic exercise, it's supposed to be a struggle, it's supposed to be difficult. With imitation-meat products, the only struggle involved is ingredient reading and menu browsing.

Fasting is not an ascetic exercise.

It is a cooking challenge.

I just discovered this awesome Youtube channel: Vegan Black Metal Chef http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg



Love that guy! He cracks me up! For myself, I'll be sticking with my professional cutlery and leaving the Gil Hibbens knives out of the kitchen. But his pad thai recipe is really good! There's also this guy (good for a few evil laughs and some decent Lenten recipes):
http://www.youtube.com/user/HeavyMetalKitchen
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2011, 10:28:55 PM »

Having been to a country where the average family would eat Fido for lunch just as readily as pet him, the question in the OP has me wondering: Why in the world would anyone make a dog out of tofu? Huh
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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2011, 10:43:36 PM »

Having been to a country where the average family would eat Fido for lunch just as readily as pet him, the question in the OP has me wondering: Why in the world would anyone make a dog out of tofu? Huh

For probably the same reason tofu turkey exists.  laugh laugh
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