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Author Topic: Antiochian Self-rule approved in Pittsburgh  (Read 11116 times) Average Rating: 0
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theodore
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« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2004, 06:31:24 PM »

While it's true that the Antiochians lack a monastery in the US, it's also true that they do not have a seminary either.  Of course, most of the Antiochian priests go to seminary, but either at St. Vlads, or to a lesser extent, Holy Cross.  The point is, why duplicate the efforts of other jurisdictions when there are fine Orthodox seminaries already established?  I think that for the time being, the same holds true for monasteries.  Men and women who are monastically inclined are encouraged by the Antiochian bishops to enter into one of the OCA or GOA monasteries which have already been established.   I personally believe that the Antiochians would be better serverd to have their own monastery, but for the time being there are certainly monastic options in the US.  Just not of the Antiochian flavor.
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2004, 07:05:23 PM »

theo,
Yes, it works w/ seminaries, but if you enter a monastery, don't you have to have obedience to clergy of another jurisdiction?  AFAIK, Bishops are chosen from the monastic (hieromonk) ranks.  Maybe a celibate priest qualifies, but those seem few and far between.  I wasn't even aware that it was allowed to be an unmarried priest outside of a monastery until recently, unless the bishop assigned you to a parish.  I know at least one Antiochian seminarian at St. Tikhon's too and I'm sure there are several others.
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« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2004, 12:11:58 AM »

Quote
I was Chrismated by Met Phillip back in '87.  You don't know the half of it.

Elisha,
I am genuinely  sorry you have had problems with/in the AOCA. You are right, I do not know the half of your life or situation. You don't know mine either. I probably know more bad stuff about a couple of jurisdictions than I want. I try to forget it all.

I would ask you to think on this..............................................................

"How forgiving are we to be of other Christians in the Historical Orthodox Church?How long suffering of the weaknesses of our Orthodox Bishops and Priests?.....................................it is in this spririt of long suffering that we in the Orthodox Church forgive our leaders, priests and bishops their human failings. In this we must choose to follow Christ's example, who forgave Peter When he did the Work of Satan".

Frank Schaeffer <Dancing Alone> page 201

Maybe A Healthy relationship to the Earthly church is  kind of like looking at your parents as an adult (versus as a small child or adolescent). It is not that you don't see the foibles or warts, but it does nothing to decrease the love. I would appreciate it if you would not kick my mother.  Wink

In closing, like Thomas said, we may  have to simply  disagree.
I will extend the kiss of peace across cyberspace to you, and trust you receive it in a spirit of charity.  Smiley

Spiros
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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2004, 12:55:03 AM »

Nope, wrong person.  I didn't have any problems, but I know a lot of dirt of people who have.

Everytime I visit my parents, I sing in my old choir (Antiochian).  There's a small Antiochian mission in town that I hang out with their subdeacon as well at his house and sing with him on occasion.  I sang at his wedding two weaks ago.

Sure we're all human, make mistakes and need to forgive each other.  But it's a two way street.  The clergy need to demonstrate their humilty as well, and it appears lacking while at the same time they're tooting their own horn.
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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2004, 02:27:30 AM »

Foregiveness is not really the issue.  I believe the Latin Church is heretical, but that doesn't mean I am not forgiving anyone in it.  The Antiochian hierarchy and certain lay people though are very distressing though with their modernism and all the attached issues - ecumenism, especially with the monophysites, the antiochian view of monasticism, approach to theology, role of the Mother of God, and other issues that are a matter of church order.  To point these out and call for change is an act of love.  People do so because they do not wish to see their Orthodox brethren stray from the path of the Church.
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« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2004, 02:32:09 AM »

I find myself somewhere in the middle of this discussion.  While I am very thankful for the many things Metropolitan +PHILLIP has accomplished for the Antiochian Archdiocese and for the Church in general, I do think he has a tendency to simultaneously promote the AOA while somewhat denigrating other american jurisdictions.  

Both the OCA and ROCOR have had a great level of success in evangelization.  I am not sure of the numbers, but both have laboured abundantly in the fields.  The GOA has made probably the strongest contribution of American monasticism of the past century in the Ephraimite monasteries, and while as a whole the GOA is not seen as making great missionary strides, GOA parishes are everywhere and many people have been brought to the Church through the GOA, including the OCA priest who chrismated me and my bishop.

Other smaller jurisdictions such as ACROD, the UOC, JP,  etc have also borne fruit but are often not as heard of as the larger jurisdictions.  

I do congratulate all of the efforts made by the Antiochian Archdiocese and Metropolitan +PHILLIP.  I just wish that they would do the same for all of us non-Antiochians.
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« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2004, 02:41:16 AM »

One final point.  We in the non-AOA jurisdictions   Grin are glad to talk about our problems - we realize we have them!  On the otherhand, when ever any of us say anything about the Antiochians it's "Wah, wah!  You'e so mean, bashing us and all!  Look how great we are and what we have done!".   Again, where's the humlity?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2004, 02:41:31 AM by Elisha » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2004, 12:21:24 PM »

I am glad that some of the attitudes on this board are not representative or  indicative of the reality of the Church.
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« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2004, 12:52:57 PM »

I am glad that some of the attitudes on this board are not representative or  indicative of the reality of the Church.


You're being defensive again.  Just when we think things are going great, they could come crashing down around us.  Be on guard.
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« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2004, 04:22:26 PM »

Quote
You're being defensive again.

 Cheesy Maybe you're being offensive again. Wink

Quote
Just when we think things are going great, they could come crashing down around us.  Be on guard.

Whatever do you mean??
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« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2004, 04:57:36 PM »

Quote
Foregiveness is not really the issue.  I believe the Latin Church is heretical, but that doesn't mean I am not forgiving anyone in it.  The Antiochian hierarchy and certain lay people though are very distressing though with their modernism and all the attached issues - ecumenism, especially with the monophysites, the antiochian view of monasticism, approach to theology, role of the Mother of God, and other issues that are a matter of church order.  To point these out and call for change is an act of love.  People do so because they do not wish to see their Orthodox brethren stray from the path of the Church.  

This sounds like hogwash. You call that modernism??? Modernism is what is happening in other churches with real problems such as liberalism, redefining marriage, liturgical abuses, changing doctrines etc.....

How is our approach to theology different than yours??? What about the role of the Mother of God??? Never heard any of this before. You guys bring up the the most nitpicking BS I have ever heard. We have other church denominations being swallowed up & ruined by degenerates & PC crusaders & you beat us over the head with this nonsense???

I'm also not surprised to see such a blanket statement about the "heretical" latin church. I guess right after 1054 they went completely off the train tracks & are devoid of any grace. I guess the only solution was for all western christians to pack their bags & move east.
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« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2004, 06:52:48 PM »

Nacho,
Settle down.  Instead of getting defensive, why don't you think critically on what has been said of those issues.  Feel free to point out the shortcomings of the GOA, OCA , etc. we'd love to discuss.  In case you haven't noticed, Nektarios isn't shy about discussing the shortcomings of the GOA - the diocese that he is a member of!  Haven't you seen his "take back the GOA" slogan?  Remember, this so called "bashing" has only come about because of triumphalist sounding statements and attitudes made by Antiochian hierarchy.  If someone is going to toot their own horn, they're going to be called on it. Smiley

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« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2004, 03:35:09 AM »

Quote
This sounds like hogwash. You call that modernism??? Modernism is what is happening in other churches with real problems such as liberalism, redefining marriage, liturgical abuses, changing doctrines etc.....

redefining marriage:  A good number of the modernist Orthodox (and most of these issues go far beyond the Antiochians) have sold out on birth control - so that is the first step in redefining marriage.

liturgical abuses:  The modernist Orthodox for the most part do whatever they please with the services, cutting out important parts here and there, reading silent prayers out loud, refusing to close the royal doors, tonsuring women readers....

Quote
What about the role of the Mother of God???

The "Orthodox" Study Bible - need I say more?

Quote
How is our approach to theology different than yours

Read something by Saint Nikolai of Ohrid, Saint Justin Popovich, Father Seraphim Rose, Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos, Elder Cleopa of Romania et al and compare it to the pop theology coming from many American "pop" Orthodox theologians and the difference is night and day.  

Quote
We have other church denominations being swallowed up & ruined by degenerates & PC crusaders & you beat us over the head with this nonsense???

Which makes these small things all the more important.  If Orthodoxy looses its savour few lost seekers will be drawn to the church.  Even large parts of the Orthodox Church will be hit hard by the apostacy of the last times - thus we need to hold fast to that which the fathers have given us.  All this things which seem minor today could easily evovle into the largest and most devasting changes.

Quote
I'm also not surprised to see such a blanket statement about the "heretical" latin church. I guess right after 1054 they went completely off the train tracks & are devoid of any grace. I guess the only solution was for all western christians to pack their bags & move east.

Intersting how you put words into my mouth. Just remeber "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church"


Elisha is correct here.  The arrogance coming from some of the antiochians is absurd..... They have hardly been the first or the most succesfull in the field of English speaking missions, yet they act as if they were both.  And yes, I am a member of the GOA and most of the smae problems are foudn there.  But I do not let that lure me into complacency.  Unless and until people speak out like they did in the time of Saint Markos of Ephesos, very tragic days could be ahead.
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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2004, 03:44:37 AM »

The "Orthodox" Study Bible - need I say more?

Yes, please...to what place in the OSB are you referring?
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« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2004, 01:44:06 PM »

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Yes, please...to what place in the OSB are you referring?

"The main study material, apart from the notes on the text itself, begins on page 755 with Morning and Evening Prayers. These contain traditional material, but are distinctly unorthodox in feel; at least I would be surprised to find an Orthodox Christian whose regular morning and evening prayers made not a single reference to the Mother of God or the Saints. Both Greek and Slavonic books have traditional sets of Morning and Evening Prayers and it was surely not impossible to include one or other of them."

from http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_osb.aspx
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« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2004, 07:10:23 PM »

Ok, SCOBA modernism it is then.
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« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2004, 07:35:04 PM »

Funny. My Orthodox Study Bible lists a team of pan-Orthodox scholars who worked on it, not just Antiochians. Also, it was signed off on by a whole list of SCOBA hierarchs. So you need to speak of SCOBA "modernism" on this point, not Antiochian "modernism."

(Oh, and there is that big, full-page icon of the Theotokos right after p. 130.... )

Just an observation.

To be fair, I'm sure the hierarchs were just happy to have anything in English that was an attempt to have something from an Orthodox pov.  Look more at who the general editors/collaborators were.
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« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2004, 08:27:06 PM »

I agree, the prayers as listed in the OSB could be better, but we all know that there are other Orthodox prayer books out there.  Technically, while the OSB has prayers, it's not a prayer book.  It's primary intention is to be a Bible.

This is way off-topic of Antiochian self-rule.  Let's go back to the topic of the thread at hand, or start another thread on the merits of the OSB elsewhere.
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« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2004, 09:22:36 PM »

Maybe this will get the thread back on topic...

From http://www.antiochian.org/1033

General Assembly Nominates Candidates for New Diocesan Bishops
On July 16 the Special Convention General Assembly (2004) for the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese approved the Amended Archdiocese Constitution. In accordance with the amended constitution, by the unanimous will of the General Assembly, implementation of the amendments began with the nomination of candidates for the Office of Diocesan Bishop.

Prior to the nomination process (by clergy and laity), candidates were asked to share with the assembly their vision for the future of the Archdiocese. Many of the candidates mentioned Orthodox unity in America. After these brief comments from the candidates, the nomination process proceeded smoothly. Many delegates and attendees commented on the orderliness of the nomination process and the overall joy present. The orderliness and joy are the mark of the Holy Spirit upon the Church as they seek and do God’s will.

About the Nomination Process
According to the Amended Constitution (soon to be posted on Antiochian.org) in the case of a single vacancy for the Office of Diocesan Bishop, three names are submitted to the local Holy Synod, from which the bishops pick one to fill the office. During this nomination process, because three vacancies need to be filled, all seven names of the candidates were submitted to the bishops. This nomination process was about the laity and clergy giving them guidance and lending our voice to the decision on final selection.

It is important to note that the selection process must be in harmony. Again this is the mark of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Candidates must be willing to stand as nominees for election. The people must voice their choice. Finally, the Hierarchs must concur. As mentioned in a previous article on the convention, this process showed how in a hierarchal church, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, clergy and laity alike are allowed to participate in the decision process.

The Results of the Nominations
(In order of number of votes received at Special Convention from most to least)

1. Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Thomas Joseph
2. Rev. Fr. Mark Maymon
3. Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Daniel Griffith
4. Rev. Fr. Rafeek Mufarrij
5. Rev. Fr. Andre Issa
6. Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Daniel Keller
7. Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Michel Boghos


What Happens Next
At the next meeting of the Holy Synod of Antioch, His Eminence Metropolitan PHILIP will present our amended constitution for ratification. This meeting is expected to take place in October.

Having been passed unanimously by General Assembly and approved by the Metropolitan, the constitution is now in effect. It will be taken to the Holy Synod of Antioch to be ratified and filed at the Patriarchate so they will see that what we have done is consistent with the decree of the Holy Synod of Antioch regarding our self-rule last October.

After the ratification and filing, the Patriarch will send a delegation of up to three bishops from the Holy Synod to join with our bishops here in America in electing three bishops from the seven nominees. After selection, the new Diocesan Bishops will have their consecrations scheduled. It is anticipated that the new bishops will not be in place until approximately one year; therefore the regional structure that we have had will continue to transition into the new diocesan structure through the 2005 parish life conferences.

As part of this transition, Bishop ANTOUN will be enthroned as bishop of the Diocese of Miami and the Southeast. Bishop JOSEPH will be enthroned as bishop of the Diocese of Los Angeles and the West. Bishop BASIL will be enthroned as bishop of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America. Other dioceses will be the Archdiocese district in which Metropolitan PHILIP will continue to be Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of North America. Metropolitan PHILIP’s dioceses will include the New York City Metro Area (including regions of New Jersey and Connecticut near NY City) and the churches in the Washington DC Metro Area and all institutions such as the Antiochian Village and any seminaries or monasteries.

The only enthroning date set so far is for Bishop JOSEPH on Sunday Sept. 12.

The three new bishops will fill the following offices:

The Diocese of Toledo and the Midwest

The Diocese of Ottawa and Upstate New York

The diocese whose jurisdiction will include all of Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Maryland (except Potomac), and Delaware. (The name and title are yet to be determined.)

The vacant Diocese of Worcester and New England will be administered for the time being by the Metropolitan. The Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest will continue to be administered by the Diocese of Los Angeles and the West for the time being.

Bishops for the two vacant dioceses plus an auxiliary bishop to help the Metropolitan will be elected at a future time.
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« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2004, 10:06:50 PM »

I believe in an earlier article the Metropolitan said the PA/WV/MA/DE Diocese would have the bishops residence and chancery in Ligonier but the cathedral would be in Pittsburgh.  The Diocese of Ligonier Pittsburgh?  Welcome to Pittsburgh yinz guys!

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2004, 10:23:04 PM »

Why not, Deacon Lance?
How many Popes of Rome did not 'live' there in the past 2000 years?

Demetri
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« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2004, 10:44:30 PM »

Demetri,

You tell me, I was just conjecturing the name of the new diocese.  The Latin Catholics often have double see dioceses, Altoona-Johnstown for example.  I haven't seen this among the Orthodox but I don't think there is any canonical problem with it.  Is there?  

In any case, I am quite glad there will be another Orthodox Diocese based in the Pittsburgh/Southwestern PA region.

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« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2004, 10:52:12 PM »

Just teasing, Deacon Lance, even if, as I am sure you know, many medieval popes did live elsewhere than Rome.

Isn't 'diocese' just a Latin term for 'province' (or something like that) anyway and of the old Roman secular government origin? Shouldn't matter how the lines are drawn or how named.
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« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2004, 11:31:59 PM »

The Bishop for Pennsylvania & West Virginia will most likely be named for the city where the Cathedral will be located even though he will reside and have his offices at the Antiochian Village in Ligonier.

There is some hesitation to put the Cathedral in Pittsburgh because of the possibility of unity of the jurisdictions one day. There are already several Bishops of Pittsburgh and adding another would not be good. It also would not be right to put the Cathedral at the Antiochian Village because it only has an active parish only during the summer months.  I do however like the idea of naming him the Bishop of Ligonier as a reminder of the meeting from the 1990's, but I do not believe that is a good enough reason to name him after a place that has a parish of less then 10 people for most of the year.


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« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2004, 03:08:38 PM »

Um, pardon me if I offend anyone, let me apologise in advance. But my understanding of bishops is that drawing them only from the monastics is a small "t" tradition. It is done more for the reason that they (monastics) have fewer personal commitments(i.e. families) and so are more available to their flock. But, the history of the Holy Church is rife with married bishops! In fact, I've heard rumors that Metropolitan Philip would consider ordination of a married priest to the bishopric. I can't verify that, but it wouldn't be heresy if he did....no?
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« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2004, 03:25:16 PM »

I don't think it'd be heresy, but, barring necessity, would you really want to try, know the craziness the Church would go through? 
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« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2004, 03:34:41 PM »

Just to clairfy, I am not advocating the use of married bishops, but as a last resort would there be that big a problem with it?
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« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2004, 02:23:58 AM »

Quote
Just to clairfy, I am not advocating the use of married bishops, but as a last resort would there be that big a problem with it?

Last resort?

Monasticism is flourishing in the Unites States, there is the large group of monasteries under Elder Ephraim, the Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, Jordanville, Saint Tikhon's et al.  The problem isn't that there aren't monastics; the problem is the decidely anti-monast, anti-traditional Orthdox mentality that prevails among the Antiochian Leadership in America. 

+Ãœ-ì-ü+¦+¦ +ò+++¦+«-â++++ +++++¼-é. 
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« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2004, 09:57:42 AM »

Geez, folks sorry I said anything, it was just an idea. An idea I already said I did not advocate. But this problem you have with the Antiochian hierarchy...forgive me my ignorance but I don't understand it. Can you please explain with specifics why you dislike my church's bishops?
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« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2004, 12:19:25 PM »

Quote
Geez, folks sorry I said anything, it was just an idea. An idea I already said I did not advocate. But this problem you have with the Antiochian hierarchy...forgive me my ignorance but I don't understand it. Can you please explain with specifics why you dislike my church's bishops?

Ahhh, here we go again. Online Orthodoxy has an apperant problem with the Antiochians which I find to be very petty to say the least. I have yet to meet any real living Orthodox person that has made such silly statements as I have seen in online forums and I have met and talked with a broad spectrum of people in many different jurisdictions.

P.S., Saint Columba is one of my favorite saints. It's odd that we don't hear to much about him, I wondering if it's because he was a "westerner" lol!!!
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« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2004, 12:29:04 PM »

I hope no thinks I am looking for a fight on this topic...I honestly want to know why we Antiochians have such a bad rep with Orthodox online groups?
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« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2004, 12:50:29 PM »

Thomas,

Quote
Actually there are several monastics in the Archdiocese---- His Grace Bishop Basil is actually a monastic,

I think people here meant people OTHER than Bishops - you know, actual monastic establishments with monks who are not members of the heirarchy...just simple, praying, monks.

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To set the record straight with actual documentation, I suggest that one get the biography of  Metropolitan Philip, by Archpriest Peter Gilquist. I too though Metropolitan philip to be totally antimonastic, however after reading the book I found Metropolitan Philip to be totally committed to the evangelization of Orthodoxy to America. I learned that the Metropolitan is not necessarily anti-monastic but rather wants the first monstic foundation to be based upon  the Balamond Monastery model from Lebanon which is primarily a retreat and education model.

Which, strictly speaking, is not traditional Orthodox monasticism.

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While I can not speak for him or other Antiochian Bishops, my interactions with them have lead me to believe that he, and other Antiochian Bishops would like  seasoned monastics when the first formal male monastery in the Archdiocese is established rather than the fly-by-night charismatic (read that centered around a single charismatic leader) institutions that often have been started and failed by wannabes [no offense intended].

Which "charismatic leaders" or "wannabes" do you have in mind?

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Coming from Lebabnon, Metropolitan Phillip is well aware of what it is to live in a hostile environment where scattered Christians surrounded by an antichristian majority (Islam) need a refuge and place of spiritual renewal.

This kind of "activist" thinking is very misguided (imho) and will not get the desired result.  It's trying to pick fruit without first planting the tree.  Yes, it's true that in times past monasteries would come to take on all sorts of "pastoral" tasks - yet this was a consequence of their being sufficient monks to begin with, and stable monastic establishments.  The Antiochians do not have this - it sounds to me like Met.Phillip wants to bypass a crucial first step.

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I believe that the role of monastacism is to first seek the kingdom of God initially for oneself through discipline and obedience, the worship of the Living Tri-une God through the discipline of the hours of the dervices of the church, AND the evangelical outreach as a witness to the world of the message of the Holy Orthodox Faith.

This sounds very forced.  Generally when monks were commissioned to go out of the monastery and act as missionaries, it was because they were perceived to have attained spiritual maturity.  How can you have mature, learned monastics, who have truly acquired holiness (which is more crucial than being a "good administrator" or having this or that degree) when you don't have monks?

To be fair, the AOA is not unique in it's monastic barreness here in the west - it's simply the worst in this regard.  A lack of monastic institutions in most juristictions here is a problem not limited to any one group, and it's a serious problem since it's not a good indicator of the health of Orthodoxy here.  I think this lack of monasticism is very much connected with the spirit of renovationism and modernism you see in much of "academic" Orthodoxy here, and to a degree in parish life - I think many Orthodox in the west would be shocked that the liberties they often take (both inside and outside of the Church) would be viewed as scandalous in most parts of the old world, if not outright sins against piety.  Monasticism embodies everything contrary to this wordly spirit - it is the denial of self willedness, or worldly notions of "progress" or "success".  So I guess the monasteries are not only a sign of health, but themselves a sort of immunization against these problems...a circle of health I suppose.

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Augustine
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« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2004, 01:11:32 PM »

Nacho,

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They remind me of a dying generation of people that are so stubborn in thier beleifs that they can't relate whatsoever with younger generations and changing times. It's like walking into a reformed baptist church and seeing a sea of gray hair. They are stuck in thier ways & everything has to be thier way & everyone else is wrong. In the future, they will be closing churches, we will be taking thiers & starting new ones....must I go on?

Gee, that sounds awfully adversarial of you.  :-

I agree, that the Church has to try to be somewhat different things for different people, at least in some of the particulars.  But the basics must be there - and the fact is, in many places they are not.  I think the disappointment of some here regarding the lack of monastics in the west is due to this - seeing all of these ambitious plans, all of this talk, but without the genuine, tried and true vessels which can actually make any of this happen.

Speaking as a youngish person myself (I'm hoping 26 still qualifies), I know that amongst my own peers (in particular those of no particular religion) fakery and superficiality are big turn offs.  Genuine Orthodoxy has something people here need, even though many don't quite know they need it until it is presented to them.  I don't think anything will be gained by trying to re-invent the wheel, or playing to lesser motives - there are other religions and denominations here that are more than willing to do that, so why play that game?

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This is why we WILL be the premier church in america because we are focusing on the gospel and living it out.

I dunno, I'm not too worried about my "juristiction" being the "premier church" - I'm simply concerned about Orthodoxy being hijacked by fadism, neo-renovationism (which the Antiochians both here and in the old world regularly toy with, sadly), and other "isms" being marketed as some great hope for the growth of Orthodoxy.

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This sounds like hogwash. You call that modernism??? Modernism is what is happening in other churches with real problems such as liberalism, redefining marriage, liturgical abuses, changing doctrines etc.....

It sounds like you're enthusiastic, but not well informed.  The AOA and the Patriarchate of Antioch have been at the forefront of some of the most distressing "trends", including some of the issues you've just named ("liberalism", liturgy/praxis, extreme ecumenism which goes to the put of annulling the consequences of Ecumenical Councils, etc.)

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I'm also not surprised to see such a blanket statement about the "heretical" latin church. I guess right after 1054 they went completely off the train tracks & are devoid of any grace. I guess the only solution was for all western christians to pack their bags & move east.

Though there's more to be said than this, in short, yes - they ought to become Orthodox, because it is true, and that was the faith of their forefathers before they deviated.  As for the "grace" issue, there is a short answer and a long answer - the short being, the grace of the Church exists in the Church.

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« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2004, 02:02:35 AM »

Augustine has pretty much said everything I was planning on saying in this topic.  It has been my experience and the actions of Metr. Philip that the Antiochians (at least in American) are hostile to the idea of traditional monasticism.  I think they get picked on in this regard because that almost seems to be thier "official" position.  There are segments in the OCA, GOA and probably most every group that is opposed to Orthodox monasticism. 
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2004, 12:20:18 AM »

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I suggest that one get the biography of  Metropolitan Philip, by Archpriest Peter Gilquist.

I have read that hagio...er... biography of Met. Philip. If I could make a counter suggestion, I would encourage people to instead 1) listen to what His Grace Met. Philip has actually said, and 2) watch what His Grace Met. Philip actually does.
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