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Author Topic: Suicide: Either God is wrong or YOU are and its probably more likely YOU!!!  (Read 3372 times) Average Rating: 0
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vamrat
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« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2011, 04:32:58 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

That's why I don't judge them but rather pray for them.  I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.
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« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2011, 04:35:04 PM »

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

This post definitely shows a lack of understanding of the ontological nature of sin and its non-triadic psycho-pneuma-somatic nature.

What is "choice"? In virtue of is one capable of making a "choice"?

Once you solve these riddles, I have many more, then we can talk about your ability to judge.

FWIW. Every act of the passion is to idolatry of one form or another. At least that is what a buncha Orthodox folks over thousands of years have said. A suicide could be a form. Not necessarily.

But to get there we will have to wait for you to solve many riddles of life.

First, address my questions about choice.
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« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2011, 04:37:20 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

That's why I don't judge them but rather pray for them.  I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

There is no salvation of the parted beyond this life? Hmmmmm. Why pray for them?
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« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2011, 04:39:40 PM »


Nobody said there's no salvation for them.  That's why WE pray for them.

They can no longer better their position.  They cannot repent, they cannot do any good works, they can't help themselves.  They are there with their baggage in tow, and it's up to us to help alleviate their baggage, because there's nothing they can do for themselves anymore.

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« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2011, 04:41:29 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny

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« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2011, 04:47:03 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide  Shocked


A question? Is eating sugary food helping or hindering? I work around hazardous material, is that helping? I breath dirty air when I go to the city. My point being many things hinder our body, but we still do it.

And, how am I being naive? Please point to it. I also know what Orthodoxy teaches on a lot of things, yet I do them. Why? Because I'm not perfect. All I was saying is that it misses the mark, but, in the end, it's God's judgement.

you missing one crucial point.....you CHOOSE to do them and so you are shortening your life.....so....there is no difference between you or me or anyone really....and the suicidal person who does it quicker than you and me and other people... SO...... they should have all the things that you have when you die, nothing should be taken from them. Your doing the same thing, we all are in some ways......but one is more shocking because its quicker.

edit: sorry i dint answer your question. Your being naeve because you said that smoking might not be the thing that kills you and then you just mentioned cancer  Roll Eyes

I was referring to the smoking as we choose to eat sugary things, etc. As for naive, how? I said that it was likely, not that I wouldn't. I only said i's possible I won't. I could also get hit by a car next week and die. Yes, I am damaging myself. I've already admitted to that.

People *choose* to commit suicide. Those who are mentally ill are a different story. I am talking about the person who is in his right mind. Again, I say this: we do not have the right to play God, even with our own life. You seem to ignore my original point as pointed out by this dying priest: it is God's time and He decides. To shorten our lif because "Well, I'm dying anyway!" Is to take the power from God. 1)He may use your terminal illness for His glory or for a purpose, such as a salvific work for those taking care of you. 2) He may decide to use you for a miracle for His glory. That is, He may heal you (I have seen it, personally...a lady had stage three cancer, told there was nothing they could do...she was given three months...a month later, they could find no trace of cancer). If you kill yourself because "dying anyway" you take that away from God.

I know that through this ordeal I'm going through, many good things have come but would not have if the person decided to kill himself from the beginning. God is the one in charge. Let Him be in charge.
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« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2011, 04:54:29 PM »

UGH.... i am frustrated because i can't think of the right words that are actually going to go in your head and make sense to you!!!!!!!

ok im off out
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« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2011, 04:55:19 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny



funny can be right.
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« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2011, 04:57:24 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.



So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?



How about EVERYONE else who dies in sin, death after all being its wages? OK, all those who weren't earnestly repenting at the moment of their death?

Do they get a "chance" after death?

What about those toll houses?



No. There's no chance for repentence for ANY sins after you are dead.

That's why you should always repent, the moment you realize you have sinned.  Even if you haven't gone to Confession yet, repent!  In your heart apologize to God and ask His forgiveness and help.  

This holds true for arguments or misunderstandings with others.  Make PEACE as soon as you can.  Swallow your pride and make peace, because you don't know when it's your turn or their turn....and then it will be too late.

My mom always taught me to not let the sun go down on my anger.  To this day, as hard as it is, if I have quarreled with someone that day, I will pick up the phone and do my best to make peace with them.

It's not just suicide, every sin is a sin....and we don't get a "second" chance to repent once we're dead and realize there truly, truly is a God and we've screwed up.

We have to do it here and now.

The only difference between suicide and every other sin, is that every other sin still leaves a bit of room to be repented and confessed.  We don't know if every person who dies has repented (we hope they have), but, we do know the suicide victim has not had the chance to repent of their last sin.  That's the difference.

As I stated above, Orthodox funerals are withheld for other reasons, in addition to suicide.



They haven't, I think based on just an anecdotal basis, we can go with this. So most folks here are living in perfect Communion with God and the moment it is broken, you repent and enjoin back into that perfect Communion?

That is sin. Suicide is just one way is looks.

The ontological rift between oneself and God. It being ontological and all, means we are all stuck with it.
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« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2011, 04:58:46 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny



funny can be right.

Well Played Vamrat!

It was lulz, until someone kills the humor.
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« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2011, 04:59:08 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny



funny can be right.

Funny wasn't the intent.
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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2011, 05:00:48 PM »

You're more brillianter than I thought then.
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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2011, 05:03:02 PM »

UGH.... i am frustrated because i can't think of the right words that are actually going to go in your head and make sense to you!!!!!!!

ok im off out

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I cannot make sense of what you are saying because...well...I can't tell what you are trying to say.  Are you trying to justify suicide?  If so, then it doesn't really matter how you say it, I think the position in incorrect.  If you are saying that we should pray for their forgiveness and not judge their soul, there is no need to be arguing.  That position makes sense and I think it is correct.
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« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2011, 05:05:15 PM »

You're more brillianter than I thought then.

Then you must not have thought I was as brilliant as I really am, for the mind that is brilliant enough to understand my brilliance has not been born!   Wink
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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2011, 05:10:55 PM »

UGH.... i am frustrated because i can't think of the right words that are actually going to go in your head and make sense to you!!!!!!!

ok im off out

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I cannot make sense of what you are saying because...well...I can't tell what you are trying to say.

I know she won't answer any of my questions, cause I am on time out, but can you ask her if she makes her own avatars. I've tried more than once and really it is a burning question.

If so, she is a genius at design.
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« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2011, 05:12:37 PM »

Poppy, do you make your own avatars?  If so, orthonorm says you are a genius at design.
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« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2011, 05:48:29 PM »

She doesn't, but, she's still a genius at design for using them!

I love them!
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2011, 05:50:34 PM »

With all this talk of "judgement", I just want to point out that I can't think of a single account of the final judgement where Christ judges anyone based on their funeral or where they were buried.
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2011, 05:52:12 PM »

she's still a genius at design for using them!

I love them!

I'm in total agreement here.
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2011, 06:55:16 PM »

A couple of things that just came to mind concerning suicide...

Pelagia of Antioch

The virgin-martyr Saint Pelagia of Antioch was killed during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian. The Church celebrates her feast day on October 8.

Life

She lived in what is now Turkey in the early fourth century. When she was around fifteen years old, a group of soldiers came to arrest her for being a Christian. When the soldiers attempted to sexually assault her, she jumped from her roof (or window) rather than face the dishonor it would bring her.

And while the Church teaches that suicide is typically sinfull in nature, this question was asked on a different thread regarding something else, but still relevant to this discussion

can they seperate a sinner from his sin, or must you condone the sin to save the sinner?
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« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2011, 03:37:30 AM »

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

This post definitely shows a lack of understanding of the ontological nature of sin and its non-triadic psycho-pneuma-somatic nature.

What is "choice"? In virtue of is one capable of making a "choice"?

Once you solve these riddles, I have many more, then we can talk about your ability to judge.

FWIW. Every act of the passion is to idolatry of one form or another. At least that is what a buncha Orthodox folks over thousands of years have said. A suicide could be a form. Not necessarily.

But to get there we will have to wait for you to solve many riddles of life.

First, address my questions about choice.

I suppose that is a very good question, what is choice?  I'll think about this for a while.
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« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2011, 12:28:08 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

There's nothing being judged other than the action.  A refusal of burial is not a denial of heaven, nor a judgment on their eternal condition, but rather an affirmation that the action performed deliberately was not in accordance with the Church's teachings on the sanctity of life, and that the person didn't have the time to sufficiently repent & confess within their lifespan.  However, we continue to hope and pray that the person is indeed blessed with a place in the Heavenly Kingdom, especially since our Orthodox spiritual tradition forces us to face the fact that we are indeed worse sinners than the person who committed suicide - if they're condemned for what little thing they've done, then I'm a goner for what I've done.

Just as a non-funeral is not a judgment that the person is condemned eternally, so too is a funeral not a guarantee that a person will find themselves in God's eternal loving Kingdom.  Neither the presence of a funeral, nor its absence, usurps God's authority to judge the living and dead.

Take, for example, an Orthodox Christian who decides to marry a Muslim.  They cannot be married in the Church - there is no such animal as an Orthodox-to-non-Christian wedding in Orthodoxy.  That doesn't stop us from hoping and praying that the couple will grow in faith and love and will be taken together into His Kingdom - it's just us acknowledging that it doesn't follow the preferred path that Christ gave us.  Same with volitional suicide: if the person was of full faculties and they committed suicide, we cannot sanctify the action through the funeral service, but we can continue to hope that they did find salvation in their last moments.

I pray for friends and family alike who have committed suicide; in the two closest cases to me (an aunt, and a college roommate/friend), I'm fairly certain, based on their own pre-death behavior, observations of others, and autopsy reports, that neither one was operating with a clear mind at the time they committed suicide.  But even if I were certain that they knew what they were doing when they decided to end their lives, I would still pray for them, and have the hope that the Lord will forgive them.  Again, if they're disqualified from heavenly joy automatically for their suicide (despite being more loving and compassionate than I), then I'm probably doomed.
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« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2011, 01:00:55 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

There's nothing being judged other than the action.  A refusal of burial is not a denial of heaven, nor a judgment on their eternal condition, but rather an affirmation that the action performed deliberately was not in accordance with the Church's teachings on the sanctity of life, and that the person didn't have the time to sufficiently repent & confess within their lifespan.  However, we continue to hope and pray that the person is indeed blessed with a place in the Heavenly Kingdom, especially since our Orthodox spiritual tradition forces us to face the fact that we are indeed worse sinners than the person who committed suicide - if they're condemned for what little thing they've done, then I'm a goner for what I've done.

Just as a non-funeral is not a judgment that the person is condemned eternally, so too is a funeral not a guarantee that a person will find themselves in God's eternal loving Kingdom.  Neither the presence of a funeral, nor its absence, usurps God's authority to judge the living and dead.

Take, for example, an Orthodox Christian who decides to marry a Muslim.  They cannot be married in the Church - there is no such animal as an Orthodox-to-non-Christian wedding in Orthodoxy.  That doesn't stop us from hoping and praying that the couple will grow in faith and love and will be taken together into His Kingdom - it's just us acknowledging that it doesn't follow the preferred path that Christ gave us.  Same with volitional suicide: if the person was of full faculties and they committed suicide, we cannot sanctify the action through the funeral service, but we can continue to hope that they did find salvation in their last moments.

I pray for friends and family alike who have committed suicide; in the two closest cases to me (an aunt, and a college roommate/friend), I'm fairly certain, based on their own pre-death behavior, observations of others, and autopsy reports, that neither one was operating with a clear mind at the time they committed suicide.  But even if I were certain that they knew what they were doing when they decided to end their lives, I would still pray for them, and have the hope that the Lord will forgive them.  Again, if they're disqualified from heavenly joy automatically for their suicide (despite being more loving and compassionate than I), then I'm probably doomed.

Ok well i am going to have to think about that then because i don't understand it. No wonder i'm banging heads about it with people because i cant separate judgement of the action and judgement of the person.

Let me think about it because it feels like your just messing with words to me.
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« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2011, 01:25:51 PM »

Ok well i am going to have to think about that then because i don't understand it. No wonder i'm banging heads about it with people because i cant separate judgement of the action and judgement of the person.

It's a core tenet to Orthodoxy's approach to sin: we do bad stuff which doesn't necessarily make us bad people.  Frequently people do bad things and think (a) it's not bad, therefore there's no need for repentance, healing, or change; or (b) it's terrible, and I'm terrible, and there is little if any hope for me.  We walk the same middle road that Christ did: adultery/fornication and extortion are wrong, but we'll be kind and loving and non-judgmental to the prostitutes and tax collectors.

Let me think about it because it feels like your just messing with words to me.

That's not what I'm doing (or, at least, not what I'm intending to do).
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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2011, 01:28:49 PM »

Ok well i am going to have to think about that then because i don't understand it. No wonder i'm banging heads about it with people because i cant separate judgement of the action and judgement of the person.

It's a core tenet to Orthodoxy's approach to sin: we do bad stuff which doesn't necessarily make us bad people.  Frequently people do bad things and think (a) it's not bad, therefore there's no need for repentance, healing, or change; or (b) it's terrible, and I'm terrible, and there is little if any hope for me.  We walk the same middle road that Christ did: adultery/fornication and extortion are wrong, but we'll be kind and loving and non-judgmental to the prostitutes and tax collectors.

Let me think about it because it feels like your just messing with words to me.

That's not what I'm doing (or, at least, not what I'm intending to do).

Well how bad does the stuff have to be before it DOES make you a bad person?? In the Orthodox way of thinking that is
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »

Well how bad does the stuff have to be before it DOES make you a bad person?? In the Orthodox way of thinking that is

I'm not sure if there's any amount of wrongdoing you could do to erase the fact that God created you (and every other unique individual in this world); as long as we're God's creatures, made in His Image and Likeness, we're good people.

Of course, some people do so much bad that we can barely recognize them as human - but that doesn't erase the possibility of repentance and forgiveness (not until we die, at least).  Every person has the possibility of "making things right" with Christ while they still have "air in their lungs" (so to speak), which is a lesson reaffirmed with the story of the thief on the Cross (who entered heaven despite being a convicted criminal - and he entered before those who were nothing but righteous, like St. John the Baptist).
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2011, 04:15:40 PM »

I read it but its hard to get my head round it because its not how i think.
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