Topic: Suicide: Either God is wrong or YOU are and its probably more likely YOU!!!

[Poppy]

I just read something someone said in another thread that suicide is a great sin. Normally i ask about what you believe and how come you believe it but this time i am telling you that your wrong to have it as a sin!!!! And i will tell you why as well.

there are lots of suicides and lots of different reasons that people do that which is really sad i know but how you can tell what someones reason was well YOU CANT and there are sacrificial suicides all the time, especially in war times where people do things like blowing up a place where they are at as well, just so that crucial data doesn't fall into enemy hands or so that people don't get taken prisoner and tortured. Or to save another person.

Then some people do it because there going to die anyway and they want things over quicker

Then other people are sick and depressed and WHO??? is going to hold them responsible for a desicion made when they were not well uh?? How can anyone do that and call themself a merciful God?? I don't think God thinks its a sin, i think somewhere his people have got that a bit wrong.

Have a word with yourselves!!!

[genesisone]

I just read something someone said in another thread that suicide is a great sin. Normally i ask about what you believe and how come you believe it but this time i am telling you that your wrong to have it as a sin!!!! And i will tell you why as well.

there are lots of suicides and lots of different reasons that people do that which is really sad i know but how you can tell what someones reason was well YOU CANT and there are sacrificial suicides all the time, especially in war times where people do things like blowing up a place where they are at as well, just so that crucial data doesn't fall into enemy hands or so that people don't get taken prisoner and tortured. Or to save another person.

OK. These examples are seem to fit the category of "giving one's life for another". Altruism at its best.

Then some people do it because there going to die anyway and they want things over quicker

Notice what you said: "they want" i.e. I want what's easiest for me. There is some selfishness here. It also worries me that it can lead to social pressure (perhaps actual, perhaps perceived, but still real) that "I'm doing this for my family (or for society, whatever)". A life can be taken prematurely.

Then other people are sick and depressed and WHO??? is going to hold them responsible for a desicion made when they were not well uh?? How can anyone do that and call themself a merciful God?? I don't think God thinks its a sin, i think somewhere his people have got that a bit wrong.

I believe you are right that sometimes the behaviour is out of the person's rational control. Unfortunately, it's hard to know exactly at what point the person has lost that control.

Yes, God is merciful. He will be the judge on these matters. However, overall we should have the attitude that life is precious and God-given. Ideally, the ending of this life should remain in His hands. It's my heart in these matters that I'm responsible for.

In any case, Poppy, my first thought was that maybe you're hungry again  .

[John Ward]

The last few days, I've been sitting with a priest I know who is dying. I've know him about twenty years, even before he was a priest. He is like a dad to me. I've been with him almost 24 hours a day, watching him slowly die of cancer. It'll probably be over in the next couple days. He is in some pain and it's very hard. But, before he slipped into the stage of confusion, he told me that he doesn't understand why God hasn't taken him, yet. He said that though he doesn't know why, it is God's time and He makes the decision. Suicide is taking God's decision and deciding you know best.


As for the wartime individual, as it has pointed out, blowing one's self up to protect others is not suicide. Same as jumping a gernade or taking a bullet. It's out of desire to let others live.

[Poppy]

The last few days, I've been sitting with a priest I know who is dying. I've know him about twenty years, even before he was a priest. He is like a dad to me. I've been with him almost 24 hours a day, watching him slowly die of cancer. It'll probably be over in the next couple days. He is in some pain and it's very hard. But, before he slipped into the stage of confusion, he told me that he doesn't understand why God hasn't taken him, yet. He said that though he doesn't know why, it is God's time and He makes the decision. Suicide is taking God's decision and deciding you know best.


As for the wartime individual, as it has pointed out, blowing one's self up to protect others is not suicide. Same as jumping a gernade or taking a bullet. It's out of desire to let others live.

Im sorry about your friend

when you said about the wartime individuals, then someone who is ill and commits suicide who isnt in war, just at home as normal, maybe they are thinking that their family will be better of without them. I dont see how its selfish and i dont know any well person who would do it.

[Fr. George]

Poppy, in Orthodoxy we have 3 ways of treating suicide:

1. We don't treat those who sacrifice themselves in the examples you & others gave (in war, falling on a grenade for others, stepping in front of a bullet to save someone else) as suicides.  Yes, they're volunteering themselves for death, but they're not pulling the trigger (so to speak).  "Greater love has no man than this, to give himself up for his friends."

2. Those who commit suicide and are mentally ill, thus unable at the time of their death of rational decisions, are not treated as having committed suicide in the sense of, "suicide is a grave sin."  At the discretion of the diocesan hierarch they are treated as everyone else who dies (Trisagion, Church Funeral, burial in an Orthodox cemetery if they wish).

3. Those who commit suicide knowing the consequences of their actions and making this decision rationally are not given an Orthodox trisagion, funeral, or burial at the time of their death.  They have denied the mercy of God in their lives, and are not to be eulogized as examples of Christian life.

[Poppy]

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

its RANK!!! to deny people things like that RANK!!!


1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),


1 chronicals 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.


In what ways does any of us shorten the life that God has given to people by skanky processed food or alcohol or smoking or eating to much and knackering your internal organs or anything really???

[John Ward]

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

[Aindriú]

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

?

Who said you could?

[Poppy]

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

[Poppy]

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

?

Who said you could?

The people who make the decision to not give them Orthodox prayers or burial or w/eva else they get denied

[Aindriú]

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

?

Who said you could?

The people who make the decision to not give them Orthodox prayers or burial or w/eva else they get denied

Unless they tell you, right?

[Schultz]

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

Let me be clear before the outset: I think it's far better to "err" on the side of caution and give a suicide the benefit of the doubt that they were mentally ill in some way, shape, or form before they killed themselves.

However, aren't you committing the same thing that you're speaking out against, namely knowing what's going on in someone's head?  You're just as quick to judge someone mentally ill as those who would deny funeral services would judge someone to be completely rational.  It makes no sense to us who do not want to off ourselves to do so, but it might make perfect sense to someone who is a strict materialist and who has decided that his life simply isn't worth living.  He might outright say it.  Who are you to say he's ill?  Who are we to say he's not?

In the end, God decides.  Like I said, I think it far better to err on the side of caution, so to speak, so not giving a suicide a funeral seems to be far more damaging overall than giving one.

Just a little food for thought.

[Poppy]

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

Let me be clear before the outset: I think it's far better to "err" on the side of caution and give a suicide the benefit of the doubt that they were mentally ill in some way, shape, or form before they killed themselves.

However, aren't you committing the same thing that you're speaking out against, namely knowing what's going on in someone's head?  You're just as quick to judge someone mentally ill as those who would deny funeral services would judge someone to be completely rational.  It makes no sense to us who do not want to off ourselves to do so, but it might make perfect sense to someone who is a strict materialist and who has decided that his life simply isn't worth living.  He might outright say it.  Who are you to say he's ill?  Who are we to say he's not?

In the end, God decides.  Like I said, I think it far better to err on the side of caution, so to speak, so not giving a suicide a funeral seems to be far more damaging overall than giving one.

Just a little food for thought.

ok yeah your right, i am doing that sorry. So i correct myself and say that none of us know so we should do what you said and be careful BECAUSE we dont know, to treat people right, especially vunerable people.

[John Ward]

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

its RANK!!! to deny people things like that RANK!!!


1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),


1 chronicals 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.


In what ways does any of us shorten the life that God has given to people by skanky processed food or alcohol or smoking or eating to much and knackering your internal organs or anything really???

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

[John Ward]

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

What stool? All I did was say it misses the mark. That's just a fact. And, daily, I miss the mark every second.

[NicholasMyra]

The people who make the decision to not give them Orthodox prayers or burial or w/eva else they get denied

It is seen as preserving the free will of the persons who killed themselves, too.

[Poppy]

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly 

[John Ward]

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly 

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

[Poppy]

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly 

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide 

[LizaSymonenko]

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.  This is desperation.

We should never be that desperate.  It is a lack of trust in the Lord.  We trust that God WILL take care of us.  No matter how bad it seems now, things WILL turn around, maybe later than sooner, but, they will.  Perhaps God wants us to learn something from this experience.  Perhaps God wants someone else to learn something from our experience.  There are many reasons bad things happen - and often they are because of our own actions....that we don't see, until it's too late.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".  It's terrible that someone reaches this point.  It breaks our heart.  However, there's nothing we can do at this point, other than pray for them.  They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.  This is a terrible way to finish your life.

This is not judgmental of these people.  It's sad they get to this point.  We need to keep our eyes open and help EVERYONE, because we don't know how sad, desperate, deflated they may be.  This is why we should never belittle, humiliate or degrade anyone!

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.  Nobody wants to suffer.  However, perhaps through their suffering they come closer to God before they die.  Perhaps their loved ones come closer to God before they die.  Perhaps it affords an opportunity for others to do good deeds towards this person, and bring them closer to God.  There is always a reason.  

Only God knows...and we need to trust Him - always.  In good times and bad.

As was mentioned, not all suicide is considered "suicide" by the Church.  These things are investigated, and those people who were not conscious of their actions and the results of their actions, will not be held accountable.  It's like holding a baby who rolled out of the 10th story window and died, responsible for his own death.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt, however, it's up to us to help each other and give each other support, not cut each other down all the time.

Even on this forum, some folks think it's funny to tease and belittle.  However, few of us really know the person we are teasing, and what situation they find themselves in.  They may be at their ropes end and our snarky comments might just do them in.  Therefore, always be nice to each other.

[Poppy]

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.

It is a lack of trust in the Lord.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".

They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.

This is not judgmental of these people. 

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.

Only God knows...and we need to trust Him - always.  In good times and bad.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt

If you take out the justification in what you said, its amazing the bare facts that you just came out with.

I dont know how you can believe and say all this stuff.....and use the same tongue to say...."Only God knows..." dont that disparity smack you in the face?? It does me.

what a shocker

[orthonorm]

Therefore, always be nice to each other.

People always being "nice" to me was part of what nearly killed me. Once there were some not so nice people, honest and realistic people, my life changed a bit.

More than a few on this forum frankly could use a lot more tough love. Thin skins and all.

RE: Suicide and Burial

Fr. Thomas Hopko has the right of it per usual. Pastorally, if it was severe illness and struggle involved there should be no question about what to do: they are treated like any other sinner.

If, someone falls of the map: goes away to college. And out of nowhere commits suicide. Then there should be some sorta of liturgical service for them, much as there is a service for those who remarry. It ain't the same, but nonetheless they ain't just tossed into the gutter.

This is another place where like certain "sins" are differently within Church. Which frankly shows a grave misunderstanding of what sin is.

As with everything else, more pastoral love and less certain judgement.

Some posters on this forum besides needing some tough love, should sit down list their "scarlet A" sins, and let us know what they are.

Lord have mercy on those who are in such pain AND desperation (as if that is not pain) that they choose to end their life.  

[LizaSymonenko]

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.

It is a lack of trust in the Lord.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".

They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.

This is not judgmental of these people. 

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.

Only God knows...and we need to trust Him - always.  In good times and bad.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt

If you take out the justification in what you said, its amazing the bare facts that you just came out with.

I dont know how you can believe and say all this stuff.....and use the same tongue to say...."Only God knows..." dont that disparity smack you in the face?? It does me.

what a shocker

How so?

I said that only God knows the reason behind people's suffering.  That there might actually be a purpose for the suffering.   A benefit of some sort.  Cutting that suffering short, stops that benefit from occuring.

Perhaps the sufferer, if left to suffer, might in the 11th hour find God.  Perhaps, his caregiver's heart softens witnessing the suffering.

So, Poppy, seriously, explain your stance. 

I'm not being combative, just curious. 

I am not so proud as to not apologize.  I will glady admit I am wrong, for I often am.  Just explain to me how my words were a slap in your face?

[LizaSymonenko]

Therefore, always be nice to each other.

People always being "nice" to me was part of what nearly killed me. Once there were some not so nice people, honest and realistic people, my life changed a bit.

...in being "nice" I didn't mean to turn a blind eye, or to not correct someone who is wrong, nor am I defending political correctness - which in truth is a disservice to all.

I hate that when someone is "nice" they are labeled as a wimp, naive, silly...

Each situation calls for a different mode of action, and a different approach.

Yes, discipline, but, discipline out of love, not out of anger or from an overinflated sense of self.

There's a difference.

[Poppy]

How so?

I said that only God knows the reason behind people's suffering.  That there might actually be a purpose for the suffering.   A benefit of some sort.  Cutting that suffering short, stops that benefit from occuring.

Perhaps the sufferer, if left to suffer, might in the 11th hour find God.  Perhaps, his caregiver's heart softens witnessing the suffering.

So, Poppy, seriously, explain your stance.  

I'm not being combative, just curious.  

I am not so proud as to not apologize.  I will glady admit I am wrong, for I often am.  Just explain to me how my words were a slap in your face?

Its not a slap in my face, its not personal to me. No worries.

I misunderstood that one sentence so we can exclude that then.

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.

It is a lack of trust in the Lord.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".

They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.

This is not judgmental of these people.  

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt

The disparity still exists

The church is kind and loving

This isn't a judgement

and

its a cowardly and easy way out

Nope....still a shocker

Its not personal to you either Liza, i know this is what the church teaches and your just repeating that. So my shock is with what the church teaches.

[vamrat]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

[Poppy]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

[John Ward]

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly 

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide 

A question? Is eating sugary food helping or hindering? I work around hazardous material, is that helping? I breath dirty air when I go to the city. My point being many things hinder our body, but we still do it.

And, how am I being naive? Please point to it. I also know what Orthodoxy teaches on a lot of things, yet I do them. Why? Because I'm not perfect. All I was saying is that it misses the mark, but, in the end, it's God's judgement.

[LizaSymonenko]

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

It's not for us to judge their sanity when they committed the murder.  We are not the ones who will grant them salvation.  God will.  

However, we see what they have done.  They have committed murder.  As such, there are rules to follow.

Just like a known murderer might not be given Holy Communion, so a murderer might not be given a "proper" funeral.

There have to be rules that need to be followed, or else there is nothing but, chaos.

Don't worry, in the end, whether that person received a proper burial or not, they will stand before God, like the rest of us, and He will decide their fate.  Many, many, many people have died and just been buried with no funeral whatsoever.  They are not deemed to hell because someone didn't read prayers over their grave.
 _____

On a slightly off topic.  Just the other week on TV they were showing near death experiences.  Everyone was happy.  They saw their loved ones.  They felt joy and peace and love.  They hated coming back.  They were upset to find they were alive again.  

So, this leaves the viewer wondering why they should suffer and pay their bills and feed their families and continue running the rat race....when death is sweet and fuzzy warm.  Why not just kill youself and go to the light and be happy in God's embrace.

Do you see?  The Devil is working his magic, convincing everyone death is great.  There's nothing to fear.

I'll bet that show will also push some folks over the edge and convince them to commit suicide and go to the warm and friendly light.

That's why the Church teaches against it.  

Poppy, each suicide is carefully investigated.  Each person is given the highest benefit of the doubt.  These things are not taken lightly by the Church.  Rest assured that many suicides DO receive proper funerals because the mental state of the victim was questionable.

You are arguing for no reason.  The Church, must stand fast against suicide, otherwise, everyone will be shooting themselves, the moment they have a tough day at work.

Don't fight against phantoms that aren't there.  The Church in only out to save souls, not condemn them.  

[orthonorm]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this this sorta behavior, if you don't, please speak up), how is that much different?

 

[Poppy]

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide  

A question? Is eating sugary food helping or hindering? I work around hazardous material, is that helping? I breath dirty air when I go to the city. My point being many things hinder our body, but we still do it.

And, how am I being naive? Please point to it. I also know what Orthodoxy teaches on a lot of things, yet I do them. Why? Because I'm not perfect. All I was saying is that it misses the mark, but, in the end, it's God's judgement.

you missing one crucial point.....you CHOOSE to do them and so you are shortening your life.....so....there is no difference between you or me or anyone really....and the suicidal person who does it quicker than you and me and other people... SO...... they should have all the things that you have when you die, nothing should be taken from them. Your doing the same thing, we all are in some ways......but one is more shocking because its quicker.

edit: sorry i dint answer your question. Your being naeve because you said that smoking might not be the thing that kills you and then you just mentioned cancer 

[orthonorm]

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.

[LizaSymonenko]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this), how is that much different?

 

I have actually seen on occassion that a priest would NOT bury a baptized Orthodox Christian for those very reasons!  It does happen.

He refused them entry in to the church, stating that if they didn't find the time, nor the interest to walk through those doors of their own volition, he's not allowing them to be carried in.

He did perform an abbreviated service for them from the funeral home, but, not the church.

Again, this does not include the elderly or ill, who simply cannot come to church, this is meant for the healthy who are too busy playing golf on Sundays. 

[LizaSymonenko]

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.

So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?

[orthonorm]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this), how is that much different?

 

I have actually seen on occassion that a priest would NOT bury a baptized Orthodox Christian for those very reasons!  It does happen.

He refused them entry in to the church, stating that if they didn't find the time, nor the interest to walk through those doors of their own volition, he's not allowing them to be carried in.

He did perform an abbreviated service for them from the funeral home, but, not the church.

Again, this does not include the elderly or ill, who simply cannot come to church, this is meant for the healthy who are too busy playing golf on Sundays. 

Darn it!

Still my point stands. Although not as provocatively.

[orthonorm]

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.

So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?

Please show where I am advocating that? Please. A mere allusion would work. You are getting spun up.

How about EVERYONE else who dies in sin, death after all being its wages? OK, all those who weren't earnestly repenting at the moment of their death?

Do they get a "chance" after death?

What about those toll houses?

[JamesRottnek]

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

[vamrat]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Nope.  I am only judging what happened.  If someone puts a pistol into their mouth and angles up, pulling the trigger, the firing pin will hit the primer, it will ignite the powder, the pressure will push the bullet forward out of the barrel, generally between 500 to 1500 feet per second, and a mixture of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock will instantaneously end their life.  Unless they botch it.  It's all very simple.  Now the complicated part - how their friends and family cope with this.  I don't know what's in their heart, but I can see the pain and suffering that their actions put someone else through.  I cannot say what will become of their soul, but I can see what they have wrought and I have no respect for that person or their decision.  God says I cannot judge.  He doesn't say I have to respect (as in admire or wish to emulate) that person.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

It is none of my business.  But then I am a callous person and really don't give a hoot about most people.  If I hear about it I will say a prayer for them but probably won't shed a tear.  If it's someone I know or love that becomes a victim of someone's suicide, then I will feel sorrow for them.  But then it's my business as it affects my life.

[Poppy]

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

James, i accept what you're saying and i will just say that i don't agree. For the reasons i have said in all my posts above.
I don't want to get into it with you because its not just a topic to you mate, its reality for you. I'm rli sorry for what's happening in your family right now.

Poppy x

[Poppy]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Nope.  I am only judging what happened.  If someone puts a pistol into their mouth and angles up, pulling the trigger, the firing pin will hit the primer, it will ignite the powder, the pressure will push the bullet forward out of the barrel, generally between 500 to 1500 feet per second, and a mixture of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock will instantaneously end their life.  Unless they botch it.  It's all very simple.  Now the complicated part - how their friends and family cope with this.  I don't know what's in their heart, but I can see the pain and suffering that their actions put someone else through.  I cannot say what will become of their soul, but I can see what they have wrought and I have no respect for that person or their decision.  God says I cannot judge.  He doesn't say I have to respect (as in admire or wish to emulate) that person.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

It is none of my business.  But then I am a callous person and really don't give a hoot about most people.  If I hear about it I will say a prayer for them but probably won't shed a tear.  If it's someone I know or love that becomes a victim of someone's suicide, then I will feel sorrow for them.  But then it's my business as it affects my life.

but Vam YOU have caused people allot of pain and suffering as well in some area of life and so have i. More me probably.

Should i loose respect for you or you for me??

[vamrat]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this this sorta behavior, if you don't, please speak up), how is that much different?

 

The point is that suicide is you choosing to commit one last sin that has no possibility of repentance in this world (operative words have been bolded).  I guess there are certain ways to do it slowly and if you try to stop it in the last moments that could be seen as repentance.  Regardless, it's not for us to know.  What I do know is, if you kill yourself instantly you will not repent in this life.  And you choose not to.  What happens after death is between that person and God.  But I will pray for them all the same just in case there is a chance that the Lord will have mercy on them.  That is his prerogative either way.  I will always suggest that people don't kill themselves.  That just tempts fate.

If someone commits sinful acts without repentance, it would be a good idea to pray for their soul after death.  Pray that God has mercy on them.  

Keep in mind that I am not saying which sin is the worst.  All sins lead to damnation.  I just think that suicide is a dangerous sin because we don't know what happens after death, other than decomposition.  All I can comment on is what I can see.

[Poppy]

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

[LizaSymonenko]

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.

So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?

How about EVERYONE else who dies in sin, death after all being its wages? OK, all those who weren't earnestly repenting at the moment of their death?

Do they get a "chance" after death?

What about those toll houses?

No. There's no chance for repentence for ANY sins after you are dead.

That's why you should always repent, the moment you realize you have sinned.  Even if you haven't gone to Confession yet, repent!  In your heart apologize to God and ask His forgiveness and help.  

This holds true for arguments or misunderstandings with others.  Make PEACE as soon as you can.  Swallow your pride and make peace, because you don't know when it's your turn or their turn....and then it will be too late.

My mom always taught me to not let the sun go down on my anger.  To this day, as hard as it is, if I have quarreled with someone that day, I will pick up the phone and do my best to make peace with them.

It's not just suicide, every sin is a sin....and we don't get a "second" chance to repent once we're dead and realize there truly, truly is a God and we've screwed up.

We have to do it here and now.

The only difference between suicide and every other sin, is that every other sin still leaves a bit of room to be repented and confessed.  We don't know if every person who dies has repented (we hope they have), but, we do know the suicide victim has not had the chance to repent of their last sin.  That's the difference.

As I stated above, Orthodox funerals are withheld for other reasons, in addition to suicide.

[vamrat]

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Nope.  I am only judging what happened.  If someone puts a pistol into their mouth and angles up, pulling the trigger, the firing pin will hit the primer, it will ignite the powder, the pressure will push the bullet forward out of the barrel, generally between 500 to 1500 feet per second, and a mixture of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock will instantaneously end their life.  Unless they botch it.  It's all very simple.  Now the complicated part - how their friends and family cope with this.  I don't know what's in their heart, but I can see the pain and suffering that their actions put someone else through.  I cannot say what will become of their soul, but I can see what they have wrought and I have no respect for that person or their decision.  God says I cannot judge.  He doesn't say I have to respect (as in admire or wish to emulate) that person.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

It is none of my business.  But then I am a callous person and really don't give a hoot about most people.  If I hear about it I will say a prayer for them but probably won't shed a tear.  If it's someone I know or love that becomes a victim of someone's suicide, then I will feel sorrow for them.  But then it's my business as it affects my life.

but Vam YOU have caused people allot of pain and suffering as well in some area of life and so have i. More me probably.

Should i loose respect for you or you for me??

I'm sure I have wrought pain and sorrow on a lot of people at a lot of times.  And I deserve to rot for it.  The only thing I can do is repent and hope that I can try to make some people out there happy.  You probably ought to loose respect for the two of us as well.  Respecting yourself leads to pride and respecting me won't get you anywhere.

[LizaSymonenko]

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

Good for them if they DO!  God knows!  Burial or not, God knows!!!!