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Author Topic: Suicide: Either God is wrong or YOU are and its probably more likely YOU!!!  (Read 3282 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 16, 2011, 05:38:04 AM »

I just read something someone said in another thread that suicide is a great sin. Normally i ask about what you believe and how come you believe it but this time i am telling you that your wrong to have it as a sin!!!! And i will tell you why as well.

there are lots of suicides and lots of different reasons that people do that which is really sad i know but how you can tell what someones reason was well YOU CANT and there are sacrificial suicides all the time, especially in war times where people do things like blowing up a place where they are at as well, just so that crucial data doesn't fall into enemy hands or so that people don't get taken prisoner and tortured. Or to save another person.

Then some people do it because there going to die anyway and they want things over quicker

Then other people are sick and depressed and WHO??? is going to hold them responsible for a desicion made when they were not well uh?? How can anyone do that and call themself a merciful God?? I don't think God thinks its a sin, i think somewhere his people have got that a bit wrong.

Have a word with yourselves!!!
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 07:09:33 AM »

I just read something someone said in another thread that suicide is a great sin. Normally i ask about what you believe and how come you believe it but this time i am telling you that your wrong to have it as a sin!!!! And i will tell you why as well.

there are lots of suicides and lots of different reasons that people do that which is really sad i know but how you can tell what someones reason was well YOU CANT and there are sacrificial suicides all the time, especially in war times where people do things like blowing up a place where they are at as well, just so that crucial data doesn't fall into enemy hands or so that people don't get taken prisoner and tortured. Or to save another person.
OK. These examples are seem to fit the category of "giving one's life for another". Altruism at its best.

Quote
Then some people do it because there going to die anyway and they want things over quicker
Notice what you said: "they want" i.e. I want what's easiest for me. There is some selfishness here. It also worries me that it can lead to social pressure (perhaps actual, perhaps perceived, but still real) that "I'm doing this for my family (or for society, whatever)". A life can be taken prematurely.

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Then other people are sick and depressed and WHO??? is going to hold them responsible for a desicion made when they were not well uh?? How can anyone do that and call themself a merciful God?? I don't think God thinks its a sin, i think somewhere his people have got that a bit wrong.
I believe you are right that sometimes the behaviour is out of the person's rational control. Unfortunately, it's hard to know exactly at what point the person has lost that control.

Yes, God is merciful. He will be the judge on these matters. However, overall we should have the attitude that life is precious and God-given. Ideally, the ending of this life should remain in His hands. It's my heart in these matters that I'm responsible for.

In any case, Poppy, my first thought was that maybe you're hungry again  Cheesy.


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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 08:08:46 AM »

The last few days, I've been sitting with a priest I know who is dying. I've know him about twenty years, even before he was a priest. He is like a dad to me. I've been with him almost 24 hours a day, watching him slowly die of cancer. It'll probably be over in the next couple days. He is in some pain and it's very hard. But, before he slipped into the stage of confusion, he told me that he doesn't understand why God hasn't taken him, yet. He said that though he doesn't know why, it is God's time and He makes the decision. Suicide is taking God's decision and deciding you know best.


As for the wartime individual, as it has pointed out, blowing one's self up to protect others is not suicide. Same as jumping a gernade or taking a bullet. It's out of desire to let others live.
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 11:54:28 AM »

The last few days, I've been sitting with a priest I know who is dying. I've know him about twenty years, even before he was a priest. He is like a dad to me. I've been with him almost 24 hours a day, watching him slowly die of cancer. It'll probably be over in the next couple days. He is in some pain and it's very hard. But, before he slipped into the stage of confusion, he told me that he doesn't understand why God hasn't taken him, yet. He said that though he doesn't know why, it is God's time and He makes the decision. Suicide is taking God's decision and deciding you know best.


As for the wartime individual, as it has pointed out, blowing one's self up to protect others is not suicide. Same as jumping a gernade or taking a bullet. It's out of desire to let others live.

Im sorry about your friend

when you said about the wartime individuals, then someone who is ill and commits suicide who isnt in war, just at home as normal, maybe they are thinking that their family will be better of without them. I dont see how its selfish and i dont know any well person who would do it.
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 12:06:14 PM »

Poppy, in Orthodoxy we have 3 ways of treating suicide:

1. We don't treat those who sacrifice themselves in the examples you & others gave (in war, falling on a grenade for others, stepping in front of a bullet to save someone else) as suicides.  Yes, they're volunteering themselves for death, but they're not pulling the trigger (so to speak).  "Greater love has no man than this, to give himself up for his friends."

2. Those who commit suicide and are mentally ill, thus unable at the time of their death of rational decisions, are not treated as having committed suicide in the sense of, "suicide is a grave sin."  At the discretion of the diocesan hierarch they are treated as everyone else who dies (Trisagion, Church Funeral, burial in an Orthodox cemetery if they wish).

3. Those who commit suicide knowing the consequences of their actions and making this decision rationally are not given an Orthodox trisagion, funeral, or burial at the time of their death.  They have denied the mercy of God in their lives, and are not to be eulogized as examples of Christian life.
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 12:10:40 PM »

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

its RANK!!! to deny people things like that RANK!!!


1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),


1 chronicals 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.


In what ways does any of us shorten the life that God has given to people by skanky processed food or alcohol or smoking or eating to much and knackering your internal organs or anything really???
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 12:17:28 PM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 12:17:29 PM »

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 12:20:56 PM »

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

?

Who said you could?
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 12:21:25 PM »

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 12:22:06 PM »

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

?

Who said you could?

The people who make the decision to not give them Orthodox prayers or burial or w/eva else they get denied
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 12:24:53 PM »

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

?

Who said you could?

The people who make the decision to not give them Orthodox prayers or burial or w/eva else they get denied

Unless they tell you, right?
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 12:30:43 PM »

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

Let me be clear before the outset: I think it's far better to "err" on the side of caution and give a suicide the benefit of the doubt that they were mentally ill in some way, shape, or form before they killed themselves.

However, aren't you committing the same thing that you're speaking out against, namely knowing what's going on in someone's head?  You're just as quick to judge someone mentally ill as those who would deny funeral services would judge someone to be completely rational.  It makes no sense to us who do not want to off ourselves to do so, but it might make perfect sense to someone who is a strict materialist and who has decided that his life simply isn't worth living.  He might outright say it.  Who are you to say he's ill?  Who are we to say he's not?

In the end, God decides.  Like I said, I think it far better to err on the side of caution, so to speak, so not giving a suicide a funeral seems to be far more damaging overall than giving one.

Just a little food for thought.
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 12:37:39 PM »

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

Let me be clear before the outset: I think it's far better to "err" on the side of caution and give a suicide the benefit of the doubt that they were mentally ill in some way, shape, or form before they killed themselves.

However, aren't you committing the same thing that you're speaking out against, namely knowing what's going on in someone's head?  You're just as quick to judge someone mentally ill as those who would deny funeral services would judge someone to be completely rational.  It makes no sense to us who do not want to off ourselves to do so, but it might make perfect sense to someone who is a strict materialist and who has decided that his life simply isn't worth living.  He might outright say it.  Who are you to say he's ill?  Who are we to say he's not?

In the end, God decides.  Like I said, I think it far better to err on the side of caution, so to speak, so not giving a suicide a funeral seems to be far more damaging overall than giving one.

Just a little food for thought.

ok yeah your right, i am doing that sorry. So i correct myself and say that none of us know so we should do what you said and be careful BECAUSE we dont know, to treat people right, especially vunerable people.
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 01:02:18 PM »

Number 3

YOU CANT KNOW SOMEONES HEART AND THOUGHTS

its RANK!!! to deny people things like that RANK!!!


1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),


1 chronicals 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.


In what ways does any of us shorten the life that God has given to people by skanky processed food or alcohol or smoking or eating to much and knackering your internal organs or anything really???

And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 01:04:09 PM »

Also, remember, sin in Greek translates to a word that means "missing the mark." Suicide misses the mark that God set up. It is not our decision when to go. Period. To say it is our call is to assume the role of God, which comes from pride. But, while it is a sin, we do not condemn a person for committing suicide. The decision of judgement stands with God alone.

get off your wobbly high pedal stool or you might fall off it. People HAVE to be not well to even make that decision because its natural human reaction to preserve your own life and if someone is sick enough to make a decision like that, i dont care if YOU THINK that they are making it rationally.....there not, it take ssomeone sick to make it, and even then YOU dont know why they did it. They could easily have done it for some aulturistic reason

What stool? All I did was say it misses the mark. That's just a fact. And, daily, I miss the mark every second.
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 01:10:33 PM »

The people who make the decision to not give them Orthodox prayers or burial or w/eva else they get denied
It is seen as preserving the free will of the persons who killed themselves, too.
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 01:16:22 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 01:23:52 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 01:50:53 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide  Shocked
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2011, 01:52:49 PM »

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.  This is desperation.

We should never be that desperate.  It is a lack of trust in the Lord.  We trust that God WILL take care of us.  No matter how bad it seems now, things WILL turn around, maybe later than sooner, but, they will.  Perhaps God wants us to learn something from this experience.  Perhaps God wants someone else to learn something from our experience.  There are many reasons bad things happen - and often they are because of our own actions....that we don't see, until it's too late.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".  It's terrible that someone reaches this point.  It breaks our heart.  However, there's nothing we can do at this point, other than pray for them.  They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.  This is a terrible way to finish your life.

This is not judgmental of these people.  It's sad they get to this point.  We need to keep our eyes open and help EVERYONE, because we don't know how sad, desperate, deflated they may be.  This is why we should never belittle, humiliate or degrade anyone!

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.  Nobody wants to suffer.  However, perhaps through their suffering they come closer to God before they die.  Perhaps their loved ones come closer to God before they die.  Perhaps it affords an opportunity for others to do good deeds towards this person, and bring them closer to God.  There is always a reason.  

Only God knows...and we need to trust Him - always.  In good times and bad.

As was mentioned, not all suicide is considered "suicide" by the Church.  These things are investigated, and those people who were not conscious of their actions and the results of their actions, will not be held accountable.  It's like holding a baby who rolled out of the 10th story window and died, responsible for his own death.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt, however, it's up to us to help each other and give each other support, not cut each other down all the time.

Even on this forum, some folks think it's funny to tease and belittle.  However, few of us really know the person we are teasing, and what situation they find themselves in.  They may be at their ropes end and our snarky comments might just do them in.  Therefore, always be nice to each other.

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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 02:16:39 PM »

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.

It is a lack of trust in the Lord.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".

They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.

This is not judgmental of these people. 

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.

Only God knows...and we need to trust Him - always.  In good times and bad.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt


If you take out the justification in what you said, its amazing the bare facts that you just came out with.

I dont know how you can believe and say all this stuff.....and use the same tongue to say...."Only God knows..." dont that disparity smack you in the face?? It does me.

what a shocker
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 02:23:56 PM »

Therefore, always be nice to each other.



People always being "nice" to me was part of what nearly killed me. Once there were some not so nice people, honest and realistic people, my life changed a bit.

More than a few on this forum frankly could use a lot more tough love. Thin skins and all.

RE: Suicide and Burial

Fr. Thomas Hopko has the right of it per usual. Pastorally, if it was severe illness and struggle involved there should be no question about what to do: they are treated like any other sinner.

If, someone falls of the map: goes away to college. And out of nowhere commits suicide. Then there should be some sorta of liturgical service for them, much as there is a service for those who remarry. It ain't the same, but nonetheless they ain't just tossed into the gutter.

This is another place where like certain "sins" are differently within Church. Which frankly shows a grave misunderstanding of what sin is.

As with everything else, more pastoral love and less certain judgement.

Some posters on this forum besides needing some tough love, should sit down list their "scarlet A" sins, and let us know what they are.

Lord have mercy on those who are in such pain AND desperation (as if that is not pain) that they choose to end their life.  
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 02:54:41 PM »

Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.

It is a lack of trust in the Lord.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".

They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.

This is not judgmental of these people. 

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.

Only God knows...and we need to trust Him - always.  In good times and bad.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt


If you take out the justification in what you said, its amazing the bare facts that you just came out with.

I dont know how you can believe and say all this stuff.....and use the same tongue to say...."Only God knows..." dont that disparity smack you in the face?? It does me.

what a shocker

How so?

I said that only God knows the reason behind people's suffering.  That there might actually be a purpose for the suffering.   A benefit of some sort.  Cutting that suffering short, stops that benefit from occuring.

Perhaps the sufferer, if left to suffer, might in the 11th hour find God.  Perhaps, his caregiver's heart softens witnessing the suffering.

So, Poppy, seriously, explain your stance. 

I'm not being combative, just curious. 

I am not so proud as to not apologize.  I will glady admit I am wrong, for I often am.  Just explain to me how my words were a slap in your face?

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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 03:05:10 PM »

Therefore, always be nice to each other.



People always being "nice" to me was part of what nearly killed me. Once there were some not so nice people, honest and realistic people, my life changed a bit.



...in being "nice" I didn't mean to turn a blind eye, or to not correct someone who is wrong, nor am I defending political correctness - which in truth is a disservice to all.

I hate that when someone is "nice" they are labeled as a wimp, naive, silly...

Each situation calls for a different mode of action, and a different approach.

Yes, discipline, but, discipline out of love, not out of anger or from an overinflated sense of self.

There's a difference.







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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 03:05:47 PM »


How so?

I said that only God knows the reason behind people's suffering.  That there might actually be a purpose for the suffering.   A benefit of some sort.  Cutting that suffering short, stops that benefit from occuring.

Perhaps the sufferer, if left to suffer, might in the 11th hour find God.  Perhaps, his caregiver's heart softens witnessing the suffering.

So, Poppy, seriously, explain your stance.  

I'm not being combative, just curious.  

I am not so proud as to not apologize.  I will glady admit I am wrong, for I often am.  Just explain to me how my words were a slap in your face?



Its not a slap in my face, its not personal to me. No worries.

I misunderstood that one sentence so we can exclude that then.

Quote
Suicide out of desperation - loss of friends, loss of house, family, job, caught cheating, etc.  This is suicide of free will.

It is a lack of trust in the Lord.

Therefore, this form of suicide is cowardly and just an "easy out".

They can no longer repent for this last action of theirs.  They can't go to confession and get absolution.

This is not judgmental of these people.  

As for the sick, who take their lives.  It's still an "easy" (although, in truth difficult) way out.

The Church is kind and loving.  Don't think it's not.  It give the benefit of the doubt

The disparity still exists

The church is kind and loving

This isn't a judgement

and

its a cowardly and easy way out

Nope....still a shocker

Its not personal to you either Liza, i know this is what the church teaches and your just repeating that. So my shock is with what the church teaches.
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 03:07:07 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 03:08:38 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.
by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Quote
Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2011, 03:24:58 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide  Shocked


A question? Is eating sugary food helping or hindering? I work around hazardous material, is that helping? I breath dirty air when I go to the city. My point being many things hinder our body, but we still do it.

And, how am I being naive? Please point to it. I also know what Orthodoxy teaches on a lot of things, yet I do them. Why? Because I'm not perfect. All I was saying is that it misses the mark, but, in the end, it's God's judgement.
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2011, 03:32:00 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

It's not for us to judge their sanity when they committed the murder.  We are not the ones who will grant them salvation.  God will.  

However, we see what they have done.  They have committed murder.  As such, there are rules to follow.

Just like a known murderer might not be given Holy Communion, so a murderer might not be given a "proper" funeral.

There have to be rules that need to be followed, or else there is nothing but, chaos.

Don't worry, in the end, whether that person received a proper burial or not, they will stand before God, like the rest of us, and He will decide their fate.  Many, many, many people have died and just been buried with no funeral whatsoever.  They are not deemed to hell because someone didn't read prayers over their grave.
 _____

On a slightly off topic.  Just the other week on TV they were showing near death experiences.  Everyone was happy.  They saw their loved ones.  They felt joy and peace and love.  They hated coming back.  They were upset to find they were alive again.  

So, this leaves the viewer wondering why they should suffer and pay their bills and feed their families and continue running the rat race....when death is sweet and fuzzy warm.  Why not just kill youself and go to the light and be happy in God's embrace.

Do you see?  The Devil is working his magic, convincing everyone death is great.  There's nothing to fear.

I'll bet that show will also push some folks over the edge and convince them to commit suicide and go to the warm and friendly light.

That's why the Church teaches against it.  

Poppy, each suicide is carefully investigated.  Each person is given the highest benefit of the doubt.  These things are not taken lightly by the Church.  Rest assured that many suicides DO receive proper funerals because the mental state of the victim was questionable.

You are arguing for no reason.  The Church, must stand fast against suicide, otherwise, everyone will be shooting themselves, the moment they have a tough day at work.

Don't fight against phantoms that aren't there.  The Church in only out to save souls, not condemn them.  

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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2011, 03:34:15 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this this sorta behavior, if you don't, please speak up), how is that much different?

 
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide  Shocked


A question? Is eating sugary food helping or hindering? I work around hazardous material, is that helping? I breath dirty air when I go to the city. My point being many things hinder our body, but we still do it.

And, how am I being naive? Please point to it. I also know what Orthodoxy teaches on a lot of things, yet I do them. Why? Because I'm not perfect. All I was saying is that it misses the mark, but, in the end, it's God's judgement.

you missing one crucial point.....you CHOOSE to do them and so you are shortening your life.....so....there is no difference between you or me or anyone really....and the suicidal person who does it quicker than you and me and other people... SO...... they should have all the things that you have when you die, nothing should be taken from them. Your doing the same thing, we all are in some ways......but one is more shocking because its quicker.

edit: sorry i dint answer your question. Your being naeve because you said that smoking might not be the thing that kills you and then you just mentioned cancer  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2011, 03:40:03 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.

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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 03:43:25 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this), how is that much different?

 

I have actually seen on occassion that a priest would NOT bury a baptized Orthodox Christian for those very reasons!  It does happen.

He refused them entry in to the church, stating that if they didn't find the time, nor the interest to walk through those doors of their own volition, he's not allowing them to be carried in.

He did perform an abbreviated service for them from the funeral home, but, not the church.

Again, this does not include the elderly or ill, who simply cannot come to church, this is meant for the healthy who are too busy playing golf on Sundays. 


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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 03:50:20 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.



So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2011, 03:51:06 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this), how is that much different?

 

I have actually seen on occassion that a priest would NOT bury a baptized Orthodox Christian for those very reasons!  It does happen.

He refused them entry in to the church, stating that if they didn't find the time, nor the interest to walk through those doors of their own volition, he's not allowing them to be carried in.

He did perform an abbreviated service for them from the funeral home, but, not the church.

Again, this does not include the elderly or ill, who simply cannot come to church, this is meant for the healthy who are too busy playing golf on Sundays. 




Darn it!

Still my point stands. Although not as provocatively.
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2011, 03:55:20 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.



So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?


Please show where I am advocating that? Please. A mere allusion would work. You are getting spun up.

How about EVERYONE else who dies in sin, death after all being its wages? OK, all those who weren't earnestly repenting at the moment of their death?

Do they get a "chance" after death?

What about those toll houses?

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2011, 04:00:16 PM »

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2011, 04:13:53 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.
by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Nope.  I am only judging what happened.  If someone puts a pistol into their mouth and angles up, pulling the trigger, the firing pin will hit the primer, it will ignite the powder, the pressure will push the bullet forward out of the barrel, generally between 500 to 1500 feet per second, and a mixture of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock will instantaneously end their life.  Unless they botch it.  It's all very simple.  Now the complicated part - how their friends and family cope with this.  I don't know what's in their heart, but I can see the pain and suffering that their actions put someone else through.  I cannot say what will become of their soul, but I can see what they have wrought and I have no respect for that person or their decision.  God says I cannot judge.  He doesn't say I have to respect (as in admire or wish to emulate) that person.

Quote
Quote
Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

It is none of my business.  But then I am a callous person and really don't give a hoot about most people.  If I hear about it I will say a prayer for them but probably won't shed a tear.  If it's someone I know or love that becomes a victim of someone's suicide, then I will feel sorrow for them.  But then it's my business as it affects my life.
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2011, 04:21:13 PM »

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

James, i accept what you're saying and i will just say that i don't agree. For the reasons i have said in all my posts above.
I don't want to get into it with you because its not just a topic to you mate, its reality for you. I'm rli sorry for what's happening in your family right now.

Poppy x
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2011, 04:24:42 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.
by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Nope.  I am only judging what happened.  If someone puts a pistol into their mouth and angles up, pulling the trigger, the firing pin will hit the primer, it will ignite the powder, the pressure will push the bullet forward out of the barrel, generally between 500 to 1500 feet per second, and a mixture of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock will instantaneously end their life.  Unless they botch it.  It's all very simple.  Now the complicated part - how their friends and family cope with this.  I don't know what's in their heart, but I can see the pain and suffering that their actions put someone else through.  I cannot say what will become of their soul, but I can see what they have wrought and I have no respect for that person or their decision.  God says I cannot judge.  He doesn't say I have to respect (as in admire or wish to emulate) that person.

Quote
Quote
Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

It is none of my business.  But then I am a callous person and really don't give a hoot about most people.  If I hear about it I will say a prayer for them but probably won't shed a tear.  If it's someone I know or love that becomes a victim of someone's suicide, then I will feel sorrow for them.  But then it's my business as it affects my life.

but Vam YOU have caused people allot of pain and suffering as well in some area of life and so have i. More me probably.

Should i loose respect for you or you for me??
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2011, 04:27:16 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.

Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

So all the Orthodox I have seen buried were repentant until their last moment?

What about Orthodox who ain't been to confession in X amount of time or communed for X amount of time?

What about people who engage in behaviors which could kill them at any moment and die doing them?

If a nominal Orthodox like my good friend augustin who would get a burial in his Old Country, even if he were having sex with another man on the DL (not Divine Liturgy) which everyone knew and but didn't do much about, IOW a person who freely engages in sinful acts without repentance (using hyperbole here, but everyone does this this sorta behavior, if you don't, please speak up), how is that much different?

 

The point is that suicide is you choosing to commit one last sin that has no possibility of repentance in this world (operative words have been bolded).  I guess there are certain ways to do it slowly and if you try to stop it in the last moments that could be seen as repentance.  Regardless, it's not for us to know.  What I do know is, if you kill yourself instantly you will not repent in this life.  And you choose not to.  What happens after death is between that person and God.  But I will pray for them all the same just in case there is a chance that the Lord will have mercy on them.  That is his prerogative either way.  I will always suggest that people don't kill themselves.  That just tempts fate.

If someone commits sinful acts without repentance, it would be a good idea to pray for their soul after death.  Pray that God has mercy on them.  

Keep in mind that I am not saying which sin is the worst.  All sins lead to damnation.  I just think that suicide is a dangerous sin because we don't know what happens after death, other than decomposition.  All I can comment on is what I can see.
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2011, 04:30:35 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???
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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2011, 04:31:35 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.



So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?



How about EVERYONE else who dies in sin, death after all being its wages? OK, all those who weren't earnestly repenting at the moment of their death?

Do they get a "chance" after death?

What about those toll houses?



No. There's no chance for repentence for ANY sins after you are dead.

That's why you should always repent, the moment you realize you have sinned.  Even if you haven't gone to Confession yet, repent!  In your heart apologize to God and ask His forgiveness and help.  

This holds true for arguments or misunderstandings with others.  Make PEACE as soon as you can.  Swallow your pride and make peace, because you don't know when it's your turn or their turn....and then it will be too late.

My mom always taught me to not let the sun go down on my anger.  To this day, as hard as it is, if I have quarreled with someone that day, I will pick up the phone and do my best to make peace with them.

It's not just suicide, every sin is a sin....and we don't get a "second" chance to repent once we're dead and realize there truly, truly is a God and we've screwed up.

We have to do it here and now.

The only difference between suicide and every other sin, is that every other sin still leaves a bit of room to be repented and confessed.  We don't know if every person who dies has repented (we hope they have), but, we do know the suicide victim has not had the chance to repent of their last sin.  That's the difference.

As I stated above, Orthodox funerals are withheld for other reasons, in addition to suicide.

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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2011, 04:31:39 PM »

The problem with suicide is that it is a sin that does not allow for repentance on this Earth, by its very nature.  No, you cannot know their heart, but you can see their actions.  I won't judge the soul of someone who commits suicide, but I have no respect for them or their decision, for leaving behind people who loved them to clean up the mess.  Nonetheless, we should still pray for their souls.
by judging the actions you ARE saying whats in the heart when you dont know.....you cant know.

Nope.  I am only judging what happened.  If someone puts a pistol into their mouth and angles up, pulling the trigger, the firing pin will hit the primer, it will ignite the powder, the pressure will push the bullet forward out of the barrel, generally between 500 to 1500 feet per second, and a mixture of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock will instantaneously end their life.  Unless they botch it.  It's all very simple.  Now the complicated part - how their friends and family cope with this.  I don't know what's in their heart, but I can see the pain and suffering that their actions put someone else through.  I cannot say what will become of their soul, but I can see what they have wrought and I have no respect for that person or their decision.  God says I cannot judge.  He doesn't say I have to respect (as in admire or wish to emulate) that person.

Quote
Quote
Generally, if the suicide is altruistic, there is no need to guess what they were thinking. There are usually plenty of "grenade fragments" that let you know the full situation.

what business is it of yours or mine or anyones??? to "know"

It is none of my business.  But then I am a callous person and really don't give a hoot about most people.  If I hear about it I will say a prayer for them but probably won't shed a tear.  If it's someone I know or love that becomes a victim of someone's suicide, then I will feel sorrow for them.  But then it's my business as it affects my life.

but Vam YOU have caused people allot of pain and suffering as well in some area of life and so have i. More me probably.

Should i loose respect for you or you for me??

I'm sure I have wrought pain and sorrow on a lot of people at a lot of times.  And I deserve to rot for it.  The only thing I can do is repent and hope that I can try to make some people out there happy.  You probably ought to loose respect for the two of us as well.  Respecting yourself leads to pride and respecting me won't get you anywhere.
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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2011, 04:32:29 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

Good for them if they DO!  God knows!  Burial or not, God knows!!!!

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« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2011, 04:32:58 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

That's why I don't judge them but rather pray for them.  I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.
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« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2011, 04:35:04 PM »

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

This post definitely shows a lack of understanding of the ontological nature of sin and its non-triadic psycho-pneuma-somatic nature.

What is "choice"? In virtue of is one capable of making a "choice"?

Once you solve these riddles, I have many more, then we can talk about your ability to judge.

FWIW. Every act of the passion is to idolatry of one form or another. At least that is what a buncha Orthodox folks over thousands of years have said. A suicide could be a form. Not necessarily.

But to get there we will have to wait for you to solve many riddles of life.

First, address my questions about choice.
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« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2011, 04:37:20 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

That's why I don't judge them but rather pray for them.  I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

There is no salvation of the parted beyond this life? Hmmmmm. Why pray for them?
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« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2011, 04:39:40 PM »


Nobody said there's no salvation for them.  That's why WE pray for them.

They can no longer better their position.  They cannot repent, they cannot do any good works, they can't help themselves.  They are there with their baggage in tow, and it's up to us to help alleviate their baggage, because there's nothing they can do for themselves anymore.

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« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2011, 04:41:29 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny

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« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2011, 04:47:03 PM »


And, really, doing those things in excess, especially, are sins as they "miss the mark" and I say that as a smoker and someone who occasionally drinks.

Then you're committing suicide.....slowly  police

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, I already said it misses the mark, for me. But, I may or may not die from smoking. Possible, but not definite. I've known a few people who smoked their entire lives but never got cancer and lived well into their 70's and above. It's the exception, but just pointing out that it's possible.

dont be nieve?? even if you dont get cancer....... is smoking helping or hindering your body??

I will answer for you....hindering it....badley

Just like peoples hearts and motives for killing themself, you wont know if it contributed towards you dieing or not so, you are still making a decision to harm the body that God gave you and take a chance that it might kill you. Im amazed that you would even do that knowing what Orthodox ppl believe about suicide  Shocked


A question? Is eating sugary food helping or hindering? I work around hazardous material, is that helping? I breath dirty air when I go to the city. My point being many things hinder our body, but we still do it.

And, how am I being naive? Please point to it. I also know what Orthodoxy teaches on a lot of things, yet I do them. Why? Because I'm not perfect. All I was saying is that it misses the mark, but, in the end, it's God's judgement.

you missing one crucial point.....you CHOOSE to do them and so you are shortening your life.....so....there is no difference between you or me or anyone really....and the suicidal person who does it quicker than you and me and other people... SO...... they should have all the things that you have when you die, nothing should be taken from them. Your doing the same thing, we all are in some ways......but one is more shocking because its quicker.

edit: sorry i dint answer your question. Your being naeve because you said that smoking might not be the thing that kills you and then you just mentioned cancer  Roll Eyes

I was referring to the smoking as we choose to eat sugary things, etc. As for naive, how? I said that it was likely, not that I wouldn't. I only said i's possible I won't. I could also get hit by a car next week and die. Yes, I am damaging myself. I've already admitted to that.

People *choose* to commit suicide. Those who are mentally ill are a different story. I am talking about the person who is in his right mind. Again, I say this: we do not have the right to play God, even with our own life. You seem to ignore my original point as pointed out by this dying priest: it is God's time and He decides. To shorten our lif because "Well, I'm dying anyway!" Is to take the power from God. 1)He may use your terminal illness for His glory or for a purpose, such as a salvific work for those taking care of you. 2) He may decide to use you for a miracle for His glory. That is, He may heal you (I have seen it, personally...a lady had stage three cancer, told there was nothing they could do...she was given three months...a month later, they could find no trace of cancer). If you kill yourself because "dying anyway" you take that away from God.

I know that through this ordeal I'm going through, many good things have come but would not have if the person decided to kill himself from the beginning. God is the one in charge. Let Him be in charge.
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« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2011, 04:54:29 PM »

UGH.... i am frustrated because i can't think of the right words that are actually going to go in your head and make sense to you!!!!!!!

ok im off out
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« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2011, 04:55:19 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny



funny can be right.
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« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2011, 04:57:24 PM »

It isn't anyone's business to "know", other than God's.

However, God teaches that murder is a sin.  Sins must be confessed for our own salvation.

Suicide is murder of ones self.  The dead person can no longer confess or repent of this particular murder....therefore, they go to the grave with it.

So every burial the Orthodox Church grants are to those who died of drowning on their tears of repentance? Wow, it is getting thick in here.

You go to the chalice with your "sins" every time you go, seems pretty grave to me.

But everyone else besides suicides are willing to repent? lulz. How do you know that suicide ain't fought a spiritual battle greater and with more success than anyone you know?

Oh, that's God's place to judgement, but WE CAN judge for everyone else.



So, let me get this straight?  You are advocating suicide?  Are you suggesting when we have a bad day we should just kill ourselves?  Do you think we will have a chance to repent once dead?  How will that work?



How about EVERYONE else who dies in sin, death after all being its wages? OK, all those who weren't earnestly repenting at the moment of their death?

Do they get a "chance" after death?

What about those toll houses?



No. There's no chance for repentence for ANY sins after you are dead.

That's why you should always repent, the moment you realize you have sinned.  Even if you haven't gone to Confession yet, repent!  In your heart apologize to God and ask His forgiveness and help.  

This holds true for arguments or misunderstandings with others.  Make PEACE as soon as you can.  Swallow your pride and make peace, because you don't know when it's your turn or their turn....and then it will be too late.

My mom always taught me to not let the sun go down on my anger.  To this day, as hard as it is, if I have quarreled with someone that day, I will pick up the phone and do my best to make peace with them.

It's not just suicide, every sin is a sin....and we don't get a "second" chance to repent once we're dead and realize there truly, truly is a God and we've screwed up.

We have to do it here and now.

The only difference between suicide and every other sin, is that every other sin still leaves a bit of room to be repented and confessed.  We don't know if every person who dies has repented (we hope they have), but, we do know the suicide victim has not had the chance to repent of their last sin.  That's the difference.

As I stated above, Orthodox funerals are withheld for other reasons, in addition to suicide.



They haven't, I think based on just an anecdotal basis, we can go with this. So most folks here are living in perfect Communion with God and the moment it is broken, you repent and enjoin back into that perfect Communion?

That is sin. Suicide is just one way is looks.

The ontological rift between oneself and God. It being ontological and all, means we are all stuck with it.
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« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2011, 04:58:46 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny



funny can be right.

Well Played Vamrat!

It was lulz, until someone kills the humor.
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« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2011, 04:59:08 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

I'm sure that if they are repentant at the last second they see the error of their ways and would rather the living decry their actions so that no one else follows their example.

HAHA......

i see what you did there ....too funny



funny can be right.

Funny wasn't the intent.
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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2011, 05:00:48 PM »

You're more brillianter than I thought then.
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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2011, 05:03:02 PM »

UGH.... i am frustrated because i can't think of the right words that are actually going to go in your head and make sense to you!!!!!!!

ok im off out

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I cannot make sense of what you are saying because...well...I can't tell what you are trying to say.  Are you trying to justify suicide?  If so, then it doesn't really matter how you say it, I think the position in incorrect.  If you are saying that we should pray for their forgiveness and not judge their soul, there is no need to be arguing.  That position makes sense and I think it is correct.
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« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2011, 05:05:15 PM »

You're more brillianter than I thought then.

Then you must not have thought I was as brilliant as I really am, for the mind that is brilliant enough to understand my brilliance has not been born!   Wink
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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2011, 05:10:55 PM »

UGH.... i am frustrated because i can't think of the right words that are actually going to go in your head and make sense to you!!!!!!!

ok im off out

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I cannot make sense of what you are saying because...well...I can't tell what you are trying to say.

I know she won't answer any of my questions, cause I am on time out, but can you ask her if she makes her own avatars. I've tried more than once and really it is a burning question.

If so, she is a genius at design.
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« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2011, 05:12:37 PM »

Poppy, do you make your own avatars?  If so, orthonorm says you are a genius at design.
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« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2011, 05:48:29 PM »

She doesn't, but, she's still a genius at design for using them!

I love them!
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2011, 05:50:34 PM »

With all this talk of "judgement", I just want to point out that I can't think of a single account of the final judgement where Christ judges anyone based on their funeral or where they were buried.
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2011, 05:52:12 PM »

she's still a genius at design for using them!

I love them!

I'm in total agreement here.
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2011, 06:55:16 PM »

A couple of things that just came to mind concerning suicide...

Pelagia of Antioch

The virgin-martyr Saint Pelagia of Antioch was killed during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian. The Church celebrates her feast day on October 8.

Life

She lived in what is now Turkey in the early fourth century. When she was around fifteen years old, a group of soldiers came to arrest her for being a Christian. When the soldiers attempted to sexually assault her, she jumped from her roof (or window) rather than face the dishonor it would bring her.

And while the Church teaches that suicide is typically sinfull in nature, this question was asked on a different thread regarding something else, but still relevant to this discussion

can they seperate a sinner from his sin, or must you condone the sin to save the sinner?
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« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2011, 03:37:30 AM »

Poppy, the majority of people who have attempted suicide were still uncertain about whether or not to kill themselves, even as they were trying to do so.  This shows that there is an element of choice in the matter, for the vast majority of people (at least).  I sincerely hope that my cousin was suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain that will at least mitigate the choice he had, but I don't know that, and some people who commit suicide don't have that imbalance.  As much as it pains me to say it (and it does, so very, very much), suicide is an act of pride.  You decide to take into your hands an action that God has reserved to himself, and it is a homicide in the worst way.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that every suicidal person is an excessively prideful, arrogant, and selfish person.  My cousin most certainly almost never showed signs of pride (in fact, he showed far fewer signs of pride than quite a few people I know), he was a giving person as well.  However, suicide is an act of pride, because you are replacing God with yourself, and consequently it is a terrible sin.

This post definitely shows a lack of understanding of the ontological nature of sin and its non-triadic psycho-pneuma-somatic nature.

What is "choice"? In virtue of is one capable of making a "choice"?

Once you solve these riddles, I have many more, then we can talk about your ability to judge.

FWIW. Every act of the passion is to idolatry of one form or another. At least that is what a buncha Orthodox folks over thousands of years have said. A suicide could be a form. Not necessarily.

But to get there we will have to wait for you to solve many riddles of life.

First, address my questions about choice.

I suppose that is a very good question, what is choice?  I'll think about this for a while.
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« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2011, 12:28:08 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

There's nothing being judged other than the action.  A refusal of burial is not a denial of heaven, nor a judgment on their eternal condition, but rather an affirmation that the action performed deliberately was not in accordance with the Church's teachings on the sanctity of life, and that the person didn't have the time to sufficiently repent & confess within their lifespan.  However, we continue to hope and pray that the person is indeed blessed with a place in the Heavenly Kingdom, especially since our Orthodox spiritual tradition forces us to face the fact that we are indeed worse sinners than the person who committed suicide - if they're condemned for what little thing they've done, then I'm a goner for what I've done.

Just as a non-funeral is not a judgment that the person is condemned eternally, so too is a funeral not a guarantee that a person will find themselves in God's eternal loving Kingdom.  Neither the presence of a funeral, nor its absence, usurps God's authority to judge the living and dead.

Take, for example, an Orthodox Christian who decides to marry a Muslim.  They cannot be married in the Church - there is no such animal as an Orthodox-to-non-Christian wedding in Orthodoxy.  That doesn't stop us from hoping and praying that the couple will grow in faith and love and will be taken together into His Kingdom - it's just us acknowledging that it doesn't follow the preferred path that Christ gave us.  Same with volitional suicide: if the person was of full faculties and they committed suicide, we cannot sanctify the action through the funeral service, but we can continue to hope that they did find salvation in their last moments.

I pray for friends and family alike who have committed suicide; in the two closest cases to me (an aunt, and a college roommate/friend), I'm fairly certain, based on their own pre-death behavior, observations of others, and autopsy reports, that neither one was operating with a clear mind at the time they committed suicide.  But even if I were certain that they knew what they were doing when they decided to end their lives, I would still pray for them, and have the hope that the Lord will forgive them.  Again, if they're disqualified from heavenly joy automatically for their suicide (despite being more loving and compassionate than I), then I'm probably doomed.
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« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2011, 01:00:55 PM »

but what if they DO repent in the very last second and you all have judged them wrongly???

There's nothing being judged other than the action.  A refusal of burial is not a denial of heaven, nor a judgment on their eternal condition, but rather an affirmation that the action performed deliberately was not in accordance with the Church's teachings on the sanctity of life, and that the person didn't have the time to sufficiently repent & confess within their lifespan.  However, we continue to hope and pray that the person is indeed blessed with a place in the Heavenly Kingdom, especially since our Orthodox spiritual tradition forces us to face the fact that we are indeed worse sinners than the person who committed suicide - if they're condemned for what little thing they've done, then I'm a goner for what I've done.

Just as a non-funeral is not a judgment that the person is condemned eternally, so too is a funeral not a guarantee that a person will find themselves in God's eternal loving Kingdom.  Neither the presence of a funeral, nor its absence, usurps God's authority to judge the living and dead.

Take, for example, an Orthodox Christian who decides to marry a Muslim.  They cannot be married in the Church - there is no such animal as an Orthodox-to-non-Christian wedding in Orthodoxy.  That doesn't stop us from hoping and praying that the couple will grow in faith and love and will be taken together into His Kingdom - it's just us acknowledging that it doesn't follow the preferred path that Christ gave us.  Same with volitional suicide: if the person was of full faculties and they committed suicide, we cannot sanctify the action through the funeral service, but we can continue to hope that they did find salvation in their last moments.

I pray for friends and family alike who have committed suicide; in the two closest cases to me (an aunt, and a college roommate/friend), I'm fairly certain, based on their own pre-death behavior, observations of others, and autopsy reports, that neither one was operating with a clear mind at the time they committed suicide.  But even if I were certain that they knew what they were doing when they decided to end their lives, I would still pray for them, and have the hope that the Lord will forgive them.  Again, if they're disqualified from heavenly joy automatically for their suicide (despite being more loving and compassionate than I), then I'm probably doomed.

Ok well i am going to have to think about that then because i don't understand it. No wonder i'm banging heads about it with people because i cant separate judgement of the action and judgement of the person.

Let me think about it because it feels like your just messing with words to me.
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« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2011, 01:25:51 PM »

Ok well i am going to have to think about that then because i don't understand it. No wonder i'm banging heads about it with people because i cant separate judgement of the action and judgement of the person.

It's a core tenet to Orthodoxy's approach to sin: we do bad stuff which doesn't necessarily make us bad people.  Frequently people do bad things and think (a) it's not bad, therefore there's no need for repentance, healing, or change; or (b) it's terrible, and I'm terrible, and there is little if any hope for me.  We walk the same middle road that Christ did: adultery/fornication and extortion are wrong, but we'll be kind and loving and non-judgmental to the prostitutes and tax collectors.

Let me think about it because it feels like your just messing with words to me.

That's not what I'm doing (or, at least, not what I'm intending to do).
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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2011, 01:28:49 PM »

Ok well i am going to have to think about that then because i don't understand it. No wonder i'm banging heads about it with people because i cant separate judgement of the action and judgement of the person.

It's a core tenet to Orthodoxy's approach to sin: we do bad stuff which doesn't necessarily make us bad people.  Frequently people do bad things and think (a) it's not bad, therefore there's no need for repentance, healing, or change; or (b) it's terrible, and I'm terrible, and there is little if any hope for me.  We walk the same middle road that Christ did: adultery/fornication and extortion are wrong, but we'll be kind and loving and non-judgmental to the prostitutes and tax collectors.

Let me think about it because it feels like your just messing with words to me.

That's not what I'm doing (or, at least, not what I'm intending to do).

Well how bad does the stuff have to be before it DOES make you a bad person?? In the Orthodox way of thinking that is
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »

Well how bad does the stuff have to be before it DOES make you a bad person?? In the Orthodox way of thinking that is

I'm not sure if there's any amount of wrongdoing you could do to erase the fact that God created you (and every other unique individual in this world); as long as we're God's creatures, made in His Image and Likeness, we're good people.

Of course, some people do so much bad that we can barely recognize them as human - but that doesn't erase the possibility of repentance and forgiveness (not until we die, at least).  Every person has the possibility of "making things right" with Christ while they still have "air in their lungs" (so to speak), which is a lesson reaffirmed with the story of the thief on the Cross (who entered heaven despite being a convicted criminal - and he entered before those who were nothing but righteous, like St. John the Baptist).
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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2011, 04:15:40 PM »

I read it but its hard to get my head round it because its not how i think.
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