Topic: Wave of theft strikes churches in Greece

[biro]

Hundreds of churches across Greece have in recent months become the target of thefts. Everything from icons to money to various church supplies has been taken.

From article:

Sources told Kathimerini that priests are complaining that some burglars go as far as stealing church bells and candle holders, which are then sold to scrap metal dealers for small amounts of cash. Sunday’s Kathimerini was told that even lamps left on graves in cemeteries have not escaped the thieves’ attention.

 

 

 

[akimori makoto]

I am truly starting to believe that "Greece" is a failed experiment.

The whole place is beginning to breathe its last breaths. Lord, have mercy!

[Fr. George]

I am truly starting to believe that "Greece" is a failed experiment.

The whole place is beginning to breathe its last breaths. Lord, have mercy!

I'd give you a reason or two why it isn't quite time to give up yet, but that's a political discussion for another area of the forum.

[akimori makoto]

I am truly starting to believe that "Greece" is a failed experiment.

The whole place is beginning to breathe its last breaths. Lord, have mercy!

I'd give you a reason or two why it isn't quite time to give up yet, but that's a political discussion for another area of the forum.

I would appreciate your thoughts, Father, if you have the time.

Somtimes I watch five minutes of Greek TV and despair of what Heraclitus, Zeno and Socrates would make of what has become of their race (let alone our God-bearing Fathers!).

[Fr. George]

I will say that in many places, not just our modern nations, when economies fall on hard times they'll look to any place with valuables to "make life better."  It wasn't unheard of for folks to rob/loot temples in ancient days.

[akimori makoto]

I will say that in many places, not just our modern nations, when economies fall on hard times they'll look to any place with valuables to "make life better."  It wasn't unheard of for folks to rob/loot temples in ancient days.

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

[Maria]

Lord have mercy.

[biro]

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

True. There probably is more to it, but the price of metals has gone through the roof. It's happened in lots of places. In the U.S., there's been an increase in people breaking into industrial yards and such, to take the wire and other metal stuff. (Of course not an excuse. Just part of an explanation.)

[Fr. George]

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

True. There probably is more to it, but the price of metals has gone through the roof. It's happened in lots of places. In the U.S., there's been an increase in people breaking into industrial yards and such, to take the wire and other metal stuff. (Of course not an excuse. Just part of an explanation.)

Right.  And, of course, since the Church has been part of the economic problem in the eyes of the atheists/agnostics/nontheists/non-Orthodox, it is easy for folks to target Churches in their quest to spirit away precious (or semi-precious, or even the not-so-precious but I need even $0.50) metals.  Add the lack of security, and how thoroughly separated many villages are from each other (and, seemingly, from civilization at large), and you have a perfect recipe for theft.  Not an excuse, but something that can be logically explained.

[Byron]

I will say that in many places, not just our modern nations, when economies fall on hard times they'll look to any place with valuables to "make life better."  It wasn't unheard of for folks to rob/loot temples in ancient days.

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

Japan is a fairly homogenous nation (barring long established small Korean and Chinese communities, a few Ainu and western non-residents) with a long, rich tradition and history.

Greece used to be the same pre-mid 80's. 98% Greek and Orthodox, very few minorities except a few Slavs in Macedonia and Muslims in Thrace. Before that time, theft at churches, monasteries was almost unheard of.

A homogenous nation has respect and pride in its shared culture, shared religion, shared history.

Once you get influxes of third worldlers into a country you can almost guarantee they will be the ones commiting such crimes. Or drug addicts are the only other possible suspects.

[vorgos]

I will say that in many places, not just our modern nations, when economies fall on hard times they'll look to any place with valuables to "make life better."  It wasn't unheard of for folks to rob/loot temples in ancient days.

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

Japan is a fairly homogenous nation (barring long established small Korean and Chinese communities, a few Ainu and western non-residents) with a long, rich tradition and history.

Greece used to be the same pre-mid 80's. 98% Greek and Orthodox, very few minorities except a few Slavs in Macedonia and Muslims in Thrace. Before that time, theft at churches, monasteries was almost unheard of.

A homogenous nation has respect and pride in its shared culture, shared religion, shared history.

Once you get influxes of third worldlers into a country you can almost guarantee they will be the ones commiting such crimes. Or drug addicts are the only other possible suspects.

Byron I think there is some truth to what you say.

I have relatives back there who have told me stories and basically even before the financial collapse in Greece things were bad with regards to crime. To give you an example, people in the summer time especially, would leave their city/town house and move to their farm, its just easier if you are a farmer. People would leave farming equipment out in the open with little fear. In the last couple of decades things have changed to the point that  people are now too afraid to live alone at their farms like they used to. Anything not bolted down or locked away vanishes. Even things that most people would consider of little value....

This increase of crime has coincided with large increase of foreigners from the balkans as well as from middle east and beyond. This may sound racist but you'll quickly change your mind if you see the types that rent rooms at my relatives....

With the financial collapse there is probably a local element as well...

[Orthodox11]

I will say that in many places, not just our modern nations, when economies fall on hard times they'll look to any place with valuables to "make life better."  It wasn't unheard of for folks to rob/loot temples in ancient days.

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

Japan is a fairly homogenous nation (barring long established small Korean and Chinese communities, a few Ainu and western non-residents) with a long, rich tradition and history.

Greece used to be the same pre-mid 80's. 98% Greek and Orthodox, very few minorities except a few Slavs in Macedonia and Muslims in Thrace. Before that time, theft at churches, monasteries was almost unheard of.

A homogenous nation has respect and pride in its shared culture, shared religion, shared history.

Once you get influxes of third worldlers into a country you can almost guarantee they will be the ones commiting such crimes. Or drug addicts are the only other possible suspects.

While one might be able to blame immigration for some of society's ills, you should not forget that there is quite a considerable number of people in Greece who truly despise the Church.  As part of the establishment, it's blamed for much of Greece's problems and considered fair game for anarchists and the like.

[LBK]

A homogenous nation has respect and pride in its shared culture, shared religion, shared history.

Once you get influxes of third worldlers into a country you can almost guarantee they will be the ones commiting such crimes. Or drug addicts are the only other possible suspects.

Where I come from, we have folks from every race, continent, color and creed, yet, on the whole, life is pretty peaceful and quiet. OTOH, criminality knows no boundaries or ethnicities - for example, during the days of Prohibition, there was hardly an ethnicity which did not have its version of a Mafia or other criminal element. Does this mean that the Italians, Irish, Jews, Poles, Greeks, etc, as a whole, should be regarded as renegades and suspect? In more recent times, there have been Japanese, Chinese and Vietnamese who, by their criminal activities, have sullied the good name of their hard-working and honest compatriots, who are in the vast majority to the criminal element. The same goes for "established" Anglo-Celts: there are all too many of their names among the ranks of the criminals.

It would be most instructive to get a breakdown of the ethnic background and circumstance of those who are looting churches in Greece. I have many friends who are Greek, as well as folks in my extended family of the same ancestry. None who have visited the country in the past 25 years have had much to say that is good. If anything, they are scathing in their assessment of their fellow Greeks, including members of their own families, who have, all too often, put their own self-interest above the generosity of those who have benefited them over decades. Self-centredness, greed, selfishness, an inflated sense of their own worth, institutionalized corruption, an almost cultural desire to milk "the system" for all they can get ...

I can only conclude that Greece's current misfortunes are, to an overwhelming degree, self-inflicted. The chickens have indeed come home to roost. That's why they're all screaming now.  

[Balthasar]

I will say that in many places, not just our modern nations, when economies fall on hard times they'll look to any place with valuables to "make life better."  It wasn't unheard of for folks to rob/loot temples in ancient days.

Alas, I have spent too much time in Japan to have anti-social behaviour so easily explained away.

Japan is a fairly homogenous nation (barring long established small Korean and Chinese communities, a few Ainu and western non-residents) with a long, rich tradition and history.

Greece used to be the same pre-mid 80's. 98% Greek and Orthodox, very few minorities except a few Slavs in Macedonia and Muslims in Thrace. Before that time, theft at churches, monasteries was almost unheard of.

A homogenous nation has respect and pride in its shared culture, shared religion, shared history.

Once you get influxes of third worldlers into a country you can almost guarantee they will be the ones commiting such crimes. Or drug addicts are the only other possible suspects.

It's bewildering to me how someone with "faith" could say something like this! How could materialistic Japan be an example to those Orthdox Christians who are taught to despise this particular world.

It's funny, Northern Europeans blame Southern European for their misery, and some Greeks do it on "third world" folks. The European man must be an acursed sinner for not being able to understand what's going on in this world. How long do we have to go this way? 

[Byron]

A homogenous nation has respect and pride in its shared culture, shared religion, shared history.

Once you get influxes of third worldlers into a country you can almost guarantee they will be the ones commiting such crimes. Or drug addicts are the only other possible suspects.

Where I come from, we have folks from every race, continent, color and creed, yet, on the whole, life is pretty peaceful and quiet. OTOH, criminality knows no boundaries or ethnicities - for example, during the days of Prohibition, there was hardly an ethnicity which did not have its version of a Mafia or other criminal element. Does this mean that the Italians, Irish, Jews, Poles, Greeks, etc, as a whole, should be regarded as renegades and suspect? In more recent times, there have been Japanese, Chinese and Vietnamese who, by their criminal activities, have sullied the good name of their hard-working and honest compatriots, who are in the vast majority to the criminal element. The same goes for "established" Anglo-Celts: there are all too many of their names among the ranks of the criminals.

It would be most instructive to get a breakdown of the ethnic background and circumstance of those who are looting churches in Greece. I have many friends who are Greek, as well as folks in my extended family of the same ancestry. None who have visited the country in the past 25 years have had much to say that is good. If anything, they are scathing in their assessment of their fellow Greeks, including members of their own families, who have, all too often, put their own self-interest above the generosity of those who have benefited them over decades. Self-centredness, greed, selfishness, an inflated sense of their own worth, institutionalized corruption, an almost cultural desire to milk "the system" for all they can get ...

I can only conclude that Greece's current misfortunes are, to an overwhelming degree, self-inflicted. The chickens have indeed come home to roost. That's why they're all screaming now.  

I don't disagree but i believe that increasing crime rate since the 80's is not only because of economic reasons.

Greece was hardly a booming, rich economy in the 50's, 60's and 70's but crimes such as stealing from churches was almost unheard of.

Go to any Greek island and ask the locals why monasteries and churches are now locked when they once used to be open all the tume, and they will tell you because of theft from drifting foreign elements and unprincipled tourists. They are not simply blaming outsiders, they know what is going on, unlike in big cities like Athens.  

Orthodoxy probably means nothing to foreign elements, so they have no qualms about stealing from churches, unlike you or i, or maybe other Christians.

[Orthodox11]

Greece was hardly a booming, rich economy in the 50's, 60's and 70's but crimes such as stealing from churches was almost unheard of.

Atheism and anti-Church sentiments among Greeks, quite common today, was also almost unheard of back then.

[Zenovia]

I don't think people realize what's going on.  Greece has a population of about eleven million.  One million of those are Muslims.  It has over a half a million illegals.  In the last three months of 2011, thirty five thousand illegal Afghans, Pakistanis, Bangladesh, Nigerians, etc., were smuggled  into Greece courtesy of Turkey.  

Most the illegals in the past decades, other than those coming in from borders of Albania, Fyrom and Thrace, were coming in from the Aegean islands.  If Greece dared send them back to Turkey they would be found floating in the sea.  These illegals are not allowed into  other EU nations, so they are forced to remain in Greece.   Europe finally realized Greece's predicament and has helicopters guarding the shore lines.  Today they are being smuggled into Greece through the Turkish border in Thrace.  Greece had an agreement with Turkey in 2002 for them to be taken back, but Turkey refuses to honor it.  Today Greece is frantically trying to build a wall to keep them out.

EU law requires that an illegal must return to his original home.  None of these illegals have passports so no one knows where they are from, unless someone is hired that can recognize their  language.   Millions of Greeks today have no jobs, so how are these illegals going to eat?  Who is going to feed them?    Is it any wonder that there is so much crime, and since they are Muslim, it's all the more reason for them to rob the churches.

 I know that before the influx of Albanians, people could walk about all hours of the night in Athens.  It was the safest city in Europe.   Since many of the Albanians that came in as workers are ethnically Greek and Orthodox,  Greece didn't mind.  Nor did Greece mind if the Albanian immigrants were Christian.   But Muslims came in as well.  Anyway since then every home and apartment in Athens has been forced to have burglar alarms and metal shutters.

Because of the problems with the illegals and the crime, Greece now has a Nazi party.   Of course Greece is to blame for being so lax and not facing its problems years ago.  It allowed masked foreign anarchists to enter peaceful protests and set fire to buildings and cars for fear that if either political party did anything to curb them they would be called Fascists.  It allowed workers to strike during tourist season, when  its economy depended on tourism...and I could go on and on.  But then again, the Greeks have a three thousand year history of self destruction.